“ NO, SKIING ISN’T A WELCOME PLACE FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR”

AwelteregoMainly because the term minorities is defined through a white frame of reference, plus the language is hierarchical by nature. There’s the “majority” and the “others.” BIPOC identifies individuals on their own terms, not in the context of whiteness.

also non white Americans will be the majority in the US within the next 30 years or so.

Dustin.That is literally not what the word minority means. Is this what you are discussing in school? That's asinine dude. Like really, really dumb.

Skiblade420It is incredible how every single facet of life needs to be brought back to race.

The higher ups want more control and fear in people, and the best way to do that is to create division.

At the end of the day these major ski towns have extremely low percentages of minorities, a clear reason why you see less of them on the hill amongst a few other factors that hold less weight.

If you keep pushing the narrative that this industry is completely or mostly racist then you’re seriously just causing more division.

There’s always going to be racists and assholes, and heck some old people are stuck in their ways and it sucks, but they’ll be phased out soon in 20 years.

just try to promote love and acceptance and if you see someone being an asshole or racist to someone then call them out. See a minority in the lift line or somewhere on the hill? Be nice, talk to them, make them feel welcome. (Realize bringing up their race might make them feel uncomfortable though haha)

peace.

AwelteregoMainly because the term minorities is defined through a white frame of reference, plus the language is hierarchical by nature. There’s the “majority” and the “others.” BIPOC identifies individuals on their own terms, not in the context of whiteness.

also non white Americans will be the majority in the US within the next 30 years or so.

BigPurpleSkiSuitYou are also fighting executive boards who know that much of their clientele is older racist white people who would rather not have black people skiing on their mountains in the first place. Look at the executives on any conglomerate owning multiple ski areas and I guarantee you they are largely good ol' boys.

Skiblade420I get that those bringing up your race would make you feel uncomfortable, but I think context matters and if they were vibing you out or not.

I don’t feel it’s racist to acknowledge seeing a race doing something for the first time unless there’s an undertone.

Like if these people weren’t being asshats do you really think they thought “hey I’m gonna try to make this guy feel uncomfortable and unwelcomed about being Asian”. Like I think a lot of the time white people with poor social skills think they might come off more relatable acknowledging your race if it’s not common in their area.

Like I’ve traveled to different countries and once had an entire family of people from Africa stop me for a photo, and said it was purely said it was because I was white and they don’t see much white people. Had a cool convo after.

Multiple times in Indonesia I’ve had Asian tour bus groups come take selfies with me because I was a blonde white guy. Half the time they were cool and the other half they rudely chuckled and just walked off.

All of the times I didn’t care at all and thought it was funny, but heck I don’t live my day to day as minority and the crud that comes with that.

I just think context matters, and that acknowledging race does not mean racism or ill intent.

appaThis is a verbose post that is asking people to consider the intent of white people before simply validating the lived experiences of others. My question to your bit about "I don't feel it's racist..." is who the hell are you? You're apparently a blonde white guy... so I would suggest that you take a step back before asserting your opinion on something you don't experience. You do not get to say what is and isn't racist. Focusing on intent is a privilege that you experience. I'm sure you had great intentions posting this perspective but I don't think it's a stretch to say that by doing so you are risking suggesting that racism experienced by POC on the hill is not actually racist (this is called gaslighting) and that your experiences as a white blonde guy in Indonesia is somehow comparable to that of POC on the hill in USA (though you did sort of qualify that part with the "oh heck..." bit). I suggest white folks who feel similarly to you should reflect on why it's surprising or why you feel the need to comment on it instead of making a POC's problem that you're grappling with it vocally. And you being able to laugh off your experiences in Indonesia doesn't mean anything to anyone but you.

alpha.mooseFrom this comment and your other comments, I can tell that you are earnest and sincere, but simply being nice to people is not going to fix the race issue in or outside of skiing. Showing respect, kindness, and love is just being a decent human. Using the black community as an example, simply being nice to every black person you see will not fix the societal oppression of the last 300 years. What @Wormracer correctly pointed out is that skiing is not somehow magically separated from our societal issues with race. The ski industry is part of a larger system that does oppress BIPOC. So while maybe skiers and snowboarders on an individual level are not overtly racist if we choose not to confront the flawed system we are a part of then we are perpetuating racism by omission.

To your point that people are just talking about race to "create division". They are talking about race because there is real data showing that BIPOC are discriminated against. So by saying that "higher ups" are creating this fake conversation about race to divide us you are ignoring scientific data and what the overwhelming majority of BIPOC are telling us.

At the end of that day, I really think that we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't fight for more diversity in the ski community. I mean look at how BIPOC have influenced music, other sports, art, and culture. I think we need these influences in skiing to elevate ourselves and the sport.

And I do just want to say that I trying my best to reflect what I have heard from BIPOC and am not trying to speak on their behalf. If anything I said wasn't quite correct I am well aware I have a lot of learning and listening to do still.

Skiblade420The data like what has been shown on this thread shows that the hugest factor that comes into play is that the percentage of minorities, specifically black people in and around ski towns is very very low.

The barrier of entry with expensive gear and ticket prices is also ridiculously expensive which makes it hard for a lot of these people to try it out.

If you think you’re going to get these resorts to lower ticket prices then you are absolutely clueless. Rental companies and mountains always operate on a supply and demand basis.

If companies want to market towards minorities that’s cool. If mountains want to make programs to help people enjoy the hill easier than cool.

But at the end of the day most of the people on Newschoolers are just young kids or other people that simply just ski. I realize that there’s some people in the industry that are on here. But at the end of the day most people don’t hold any kind of executive power. So saying to be friendly and welcoming to minorities on the hill, and to help them feel accepted / call out racist jacked stuff you might hear or see, seems like something decent to suggest. Because that’s the furthest extent most of us are capable of helping.

Skiblade420The data like what has been shown on this thread shows that the hugest factor that comes into play is that the percentage of minorities, specifically black people in and around ski towns is very very low.

The barrier of entry with expensive gear and ticket prices is also ridiculously expensive which makes it hard for a lot of these people to try it out.

If you think you’re going to get these resorts to lower ticket prices then you are absolutely clueless. Rental companies and mountains always operate on a supply and demand basis.

If companies want to market towards minorities that’s cool. If mountains want to make programs to help people enjoy the hill easier than cool.

But at the end of the day most of the people on Newschoolers are just young kids or other people that simply just ski. I realize that there’s some people in the industry that are on here. But at the end of the day most people don’t hold any kind of executive power. So saying to be friendly and welcoming to minorities on the hill, and to help them feel accepted / call out racist jacked stuff you might hear or see, seems like something decent to suggest. Because that’s the furthest extent most of us are capable of helping.

DesertStixSpeaking to your first point, do you honestly think the local mountain town makes up the majority of riders on a given day? All we do is complain about our mountains being overrun by vacationers and families from out of state. I don’t know about your spot but where I ski, the mountain is 90 minutes from one of the largest cities in the USA with an extremely diverse population. The residents of that city are the ones who drive the business. It just so happens that it’s mostly white people driving up. The real question is why is that? Denver is another great example. Plenty of non-white people there too...

I think it speaks more so to the business models and ski/snowboard culture that are exclusive by nature.

appaThis is a verbose post that is asking people to consider the intent of white people before simply validating the lived experiences of others. My question to your bit about "I don't feel it's racist..." is who the hell are you? You're apparently a blonde white guy... so I would suggest that you take a step back before asserting your opinion on something you don't experience. You do not get to say what is and isn't racist. Focusing on intent is a privilege that you experience. I'm sure you had great intentions posting this perspective but I don't think it's a stretch to say that by doing so you are risking suggesting that racism experienced by POC on the hill is not actually racist (this is called gaslighting) and that your experiences as a white blonde guy in Indonesia is somehow comparable to that of POC on the hill in USA (though you did sort of qualify that part with the "oh heck..." bit). I suggest white folks who feel similarly to you should reflect on why it's surprising or why you feel the need to comment on it instead of making a POC's problem that you're grappling with it vocally. And you being able to laugh off your experiences in Indonesia doesn't mean anything to anyone but you.

skeirmanAre you a minority?

Skiblade420It is incredible how every single facet of life needs to be brought back to race.

The higher ups want more control and fear in people, and the best way to do that is to create division.

At the end of the day these major ski towns have extremely low percentages of minorities, a clear reason why you see less of them on the hill amongst a few other factors that hold less weight.

If you keep pushing the narrative that this industry is completely or mostly racist then you’re seriously just causing more division.

There’s always going to be racists and assholes, and heck some old people are stuck in their ways and it sucks, but they’ll be phased out soon in 20 years.

just try to promote love and acceptance and if you see someone being an asshole or racist to someone then call them out. See a minority in the lift line or somewhere on the hill? Be nice, talk to them, make them feel welcome. (Realize bringing up their race might make them feel uncomfortable though haha)

peace.

Skiblade420He might be, he might not. But he definitely believes some people shouldn’t talk on a public forum based off their race. Hmmmm seems kind of reminiscent of the past that we supposedly want to do away with.

shinbangclanI understand your point. Even thought "majority" and "minority" is really based on statistics I can see why it would be interpreted as hierarchical.
The term bipoc, though doesn't really identify anyone through their own terms; instead of the context of whiteness, it's through the context of blackness. It really just sounds like a modern way to say "colored people", which to me is reinforced by how I've never seen a black or indigenous person refer to themselves bipoc—the term is used exclusively by white activists to talk about "people of color".
As long as we are generalizing people by their skin color, people will be discriminated against by it. I think the term "bipoc" is just another rehash of "colored people" that's not quite so hard on the ears.

AndrewGravesSVHe's literally the author of the original article dumbass. Read the rest of the thread and you'll see he appreciates that a discourse was started on NS.

You provided a defense for people commenting on someone's race off the bat at a ski resort in their home country and then compared it to your travels in rural areas. Most people in the US have seen BIPOCs before so shouldn't be be a novelty. If anyone is going out to do an activity where they aren't in the overwhelming majority group gets immediately othered then it doesn't make it seem welcoming regardless of intent

Skiblade420If you actually spent the time to read what I said, I acknowledge that it shouldn’t be brought up, that I myself wouldn’t, and that I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to be in that position.

I was trying to point out that the people mentioning things like “you’re the first Asian skier I’ve seen up here” might not mean anything past the fact that you’re the first Asian skier they’ve seen. Which would clearly be a poor choice of words to say, but it doesn’t show they’re trying to other you, think poorly of your race, or think you shouldn’t be there.

Intent and context does matter, do they shout that you’re the first race they’ve seen doing something? Are they already in conversation with you and they mention it? Is it the first words from their mouths? Are they giving you stares?

Having grown up in a diverse area and being with a wide range of friends. I’m used to seeing crappy looks and stares and negative racial undertones. I’ve also had a few friends who legitimately are on such high alert that they have thought they’ve heard other friends saying the N word in certain conversations, which were actually never said. Or back to when people would look at us in restaurants in highschool, some of my friends would think it was because they were a minority but in reality it was probably because we were a bunch of loud idiots doing something obnoxious.

My point in bringing that up isn’t to defend ANY kind of racist behavior or that it doesn’t happen.

My point is that sometimes ill intent isn’t meant where we think it is and that since minorities do indeed face much opposition throughout their lives that it becomes easy to start thinking -
mentioning of race = racist person who doesn’t want me here.

Skiblade420If you actually spent the time to read what I said, I acknowledge that it shouldn’t be brought up, that I myself wouldn’t, and that I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to be in that position.

I was trying to point out that the people mentioning things like “you’re the first Asian skier I’ve seen up here” might not mean anything past the fact that you’re the first Asian skier they’ve seen. Which would clearly be a poor choice of words to say, but it doesn’t show they’re trying to other you, think poorly of your race, or think you shouldn’t be there.

Intent and context does matter, do they shout that you’re the first race they’ve seen doing something? Are they already in conversation with you and they mention it? Is it the first words from their mouths? Are they giving you stares?

Having grown up in a diverse area and being with a wide range of friends. I’m used to seeing crappy looks and stares and negative racial undertones. I’ve also had a few friends who legitimately are on such high alert that they have thought they’ve heard other friends saying the N word in certain conversations, which were actually never said. Or back to when people would look at us in restaurants in highschool, some of my friends would think it was because they were a minority but in reality it was probably because we were a bunch of loud idiots doing something obnoxious.

My point in bringing that up isn’t to defend ANY kind of racist behavior or that it doesn’t happen.

My point is that sometimes ill intent isn’t meant where we think it is and that since minorities do indeed face much opposition throughout their lives that it becomes easy to start thinking -
mentioning of race = racist person who doesn’t want me here.

AndrewGravesSVCompletely agree with you that context matters and that our society ignores it because the topic requires a lot of nuance. We're talking about an article that says ski culture isn't welcoming to people who aren't white. Regardless of intent, nobody should bring up another persons race shortly after meeting them for the first time while at a ski mountain. Even with the best intent if the comment makes someone already out of their comfort zone not feel included then that is a barrier. I'm not saying its immediately racist but rather another barrier among many to feeling welcome in ski culture

DolansLebensraum“OMG THERES TOO MANY TUNA IN THE PACIFIC AND NOT ENOUGH IN THE ATLANTIC WE HAVE TO EVEN UP THE NUMBERS OR WERE ALL GONNA DIE”

Interesting people dont care about what races are doing what for leisure.

If you care then you arent an interesting person.

The author thinks ppl dont like him bc hes asian, when in reality its bc hes an uninteresting person and this article is proof of that.

AwelteregoIn the context of race conversations that’s exactly what it means. Lumping all non white individuals into a single group (ie “minorities”) is a binary frame of reference. White, not white.


read a fucking book dipshit

Dustin."the term minorities is defined through a white frame of reference".

That's because there are obviously vastly more white people than any other race, which is the definition of a majority. Your extravagant means of explaining it as a "white frame of reference" is a veiled attempt at intellectualism and a ridiculous attempt to justify "BIPOC" as anything other than another evolution of political speak.

Read a book, dipshit. It's fucking dumb to insinuate or define new meanings to simple words to suit your agenda or try to progress to the next level of obnoxious.

DesertStixYou know you may just...disagree lol and that’s fine. I totally get both sides I think he’s more getting at the idea of centering our nomenclature around whiteness being part of the larger problem. If I’m way off the mark, let me know OP.

Dustin.That’s exactly what I’m disputing though, this nomenclature is race agnostic. They are words with very simple and understandable definitions. If Hispanics made up 51% of the American population they would be the majority and all other races would be considered the minority. It is ridiculous to lump that into an agenda of proving racial bias or some kind of oppressive white language. It’s just not true.

Dustin."the term minorities is defined through a white frame of reference".

That's because there are obviously vastly more white people than any other race, which is the definition of a majority. Your extravagant means of explaining it as a "white frame of reference" is a veiled attempt at intellectualism and a ridiculous attempt to justify "BIPOC" as anything other than another evolution of political speak.

Read a book, dipshit. It's fucking dumb to insinuate or define new meanings to simple words to suit your agenda or try to progress to the next level of obnoxious.

SammyDubzHey dipshit

no one is arguing that majority means > 50% or minority means < 50%

You’re completely missing the point

skeirmanUh, no he isn't.

SammyDubzSo you think the term minority doesn’t have any negative connotations that go along with it?

skeirmanI am a minority. Are you? Or are you just a another white guy trying to speak for us? And no, I don't think it has negative connotations. That's stupid, and this isn't hard. You white people want to "language" yourselves out of common fucking sense.

DesertStixYou have an extremely valid point. Like I said, I believe I see where both of you are coming from. In my opinion, I have no place telling a group of people how to refer to themselves if it doesn’t affect me. When the “SJW’s” appropriate the usage, it really takes on a whole new life. And as a white guy, I suppose that’s where my place is to step in and say heyooo

I also believe we need a space for somewhat constructive criticism and dialogue in these sports that we are potentially gatekeeping. NS sure isn’t it. Just not seeing this situation progressing while we sling mud at each other online.

Regardless, thanks for your intelligent response and solid contribution to the conversation.

SammyDubzNo I’m white as hell hahahha

well you’re an anomaly then 🤷🏻‍♂️



every friend and professor of a different race that I’ve talked to or learned from about this would say minority is often used as a disparaging term what do I know though

skeirmanYou live in a bubble then. Its condescending as fuck, and frankly racist in itself, when white people assume every last damn thing about how we feel, as if we are a monolith with no difference in experience amongst ourselves at all. What, now I can't figure out how to vote? I don't know how to get a driver's license? Fuck off.

AwelteregoNothing @Dustin. has said is intelligent. We shouldn’t confuse misguided and uninformed opinions with productive conversation. This is exactly what I mean by framing through whiteness. Dustins argument only works as long as he gets to control the parameters.

Because the white race already isn’t the global majority, not by a long shot.

+30% of the globe is of Asian decent, Middle eastern is next by far, over 50% of the global pop is one of those two races.
So by his own logic he’s already the minority... But obviously Dustin isn’t signing up for that title. He wants everyone to define it arbitrarily by US borders - where for the record caucasians will represent less than 50% of the pop within the next 30-35 years. And when someone else comes along and reiterates there’s other terminology that is preferred, he demands you honor his parameters.

He claims it’s my agenda as a white person, or more political agenda from the woke “intellectuals.” To him, of course it is, because like so many white people he hasn’t spent a second backing up or researching his opinions about race. If he did a single Google result, he’d see Black activists like Loretta Ross taking about the empowerment of POC terminology. He’d see the National Association of Hispanic Journalists open letter to newsrooms to stop using the word minorities. He’d see artists like Prince denouncing the term saying, “there’s nothing minor about us.” He’d see Dr. Danique Dolly explaining how that rhetoric psychologically trivializes the issues facing POC in America (Black Americans in particular). He’d see Erin Okuno explaining why as a Japanese American the term POC honors individual histories and cultures in a way that the term minority doesn’t.

So let’s not do that centralist bullshit where all opinions are commendable and equally valid. Dustin is a dumb cunt who doesn’t know shit about what he’s talking about.

AwelteregoNothing @Dustin. has said is intelligent. We shouldn’t confuse misguided and uninformed opinions with productive conversation. This is exactly what I mean by framing through whiteness. Dustins argument only works as long as he gets to control the parameters.

Because the white race already isn’t the global majority, not by a long shot.

+30% of the globe is of Asian decent, Middle eastern is next by far, over 50% of the global pop is one of those two races.
So by his own logic he’s already the minority... But obviously Dustin isn’t signing up for that title. He wants everyone to define it arbitrarily by US borders - where for the record caucasians will represent less than 50% of the pop within the next 30-35 years. And when someone else comes along and reiterates there’s other terminology that is preferred, he demands you honor his parameters.

He claims it’s my agenda as a white person, or more political agenda from the woke “intellectuals.” To him, of course it is, because like so many white people he hasn’t spent a second backing up or researching his opinions about race. If he did a single Google result, he’d see Black activists like Loretta Ross taking about the empowerment of POC terminology. He’d see the National Association of Hispanic Journalists open letter to newsrooms to stop using the word minorities. He’d see artists like Prince denouncing the term saying, “there’s nothing minor about us.” He’d see Dr. Danique Dolly explaining how that rhetoric psychologically trivializes the issues facing POC in America (Black Americans in particular). He’d see Erin Okuno explaining why as a Japanese American the term POC honors individual histories and cultures in a way that the term minority doesn’t.

So let’s not do that centralist bullshit where all opinions are commendable and equally valid. Dustin is a dumb cunt who doesn’t know shit about what he’s talking about.

SammyDubzNo I’m white as hell hahahha

well you’re an anomaly then 🤷🏻‍♂️



every friend and professor of a different race that I’ve talked to or learned from about this would say minority is often used as a disparaging term what do I know though

Skiblade420The fact you called this guy an anomaly to invalidate his point is incredible.

You’re gate keeping what you yourself think a minority should normally think, which is racist in itself.
Let people have opinions, sheesh.

SammyDubzHahaha

you must be joking 🤠

Skiblade420

^
Wow! Seem like a very intellectual, accepting and kind individual!

Skiblade420

^
Wow! Seem like a very intellectual, accepting and kind individual!


You’re a fucking hypocritical clown dude.

SammyDubzya I would say pretty accepting except for the thotties

Skiblade420A chauvinist pig
is what you are, oh who also enjoys racist Jewish jokes.
Have fun in your virtue signaling ventures.

skeirmanHahhaha, why am I not suprised? God damn.

SammyDubzNever marry a whore brotha

bad news trust me

DesertStixWell I do think he has a point in framing the conversation properly and using terms that are accurate and descriptive without getting into hyperbole and virtue signaling because that’s what hinders our ability to grow.

I wish this conversation wasn’t framed as a contest for who’s racist and who isn’t. Rather, how can we make skiing a more welcome place for those that want to try it?

AwelteregoI’m not saying he’s racist. I never said anything to that effect. I am saying he’s uninformed. This whole thing started over someone asking where BIPOC came from and why were using it, because to them it felt offensive. I simply answered saying the term is actually preferred (particularly in social and political conversation) by many folks of color because it’s anchored in positive identity (shared experience / history / cultures) vs negative identity (not white). And the POC acronym specifically regained traction in the 70s during the women’s rights movement which Black women were huge leaders of. I’m not trying to detract from the original point of this post, but I’m also not going to let ignorant opinions go unchecked like I’m making this shit up. It’s not virtue signaling it’s literally just reading and listening to dozens of opinions of people far smarter than me. This article does a better job of explaining it than I’m probably doing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rashaadlambert/2020/10/08/there-is-nothing-minor-about-us-why-forbes-wont-use-the-term-minority-to-classify-black-and-brown-people/amp/

All I’m saying is that if anyone here actually cares about making skiing more inclusive it starts with actually educating and validating opinions. I’m not saying I have all the answers, I’m on a journey myself.

Skiblade420Are you insane? The fact that you’re this heated at Dustin’s take is wild. Nobody is talking about world wide percentages on this forum. The majority of people on here are from the United States, Canada and Europe. All places where the majority is white.

Conversation was never about world wide statistics. Say you’re chilling at a strawberry field and there were a couple of grape bushes off to the side. You would still say the majority of fruit there was strawberries.

You’re the weirdo that’s going and saying,
“ThErEs WaY MoRe ViNeYarDS oF GrApES ThaN sTraWberRiES, So THeY ArEnT ThE MiNoRitY DoNt SaY ThAt.

You look like an idiot.