“ NO, SKIING ISN’T A WELCOME PLACE FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR”

Exactly. Just look at the attitude on this thread including from supposed moderators.

No wonder there’s so many profiles here where people haven’t logged on in months or years.

bentchets303“”

“”

MXmxI believe that paying prevailing wage is a requirement towards getting a visa approved.

H2B? Are you thinking of H1B which is used extensively in the tech industry?

Negative I’m thinking of H-2B, skilled non agricultural workers that are usually employed in variety of industries.

I know at my resort we don’t usually use a ton of H-2B’s but the ones we have are usually in the advance or intermediate chef role. J1’s will fill more of the line level food service positions and the H-2B’s are working in more of a fine dining setting.

“Other industries with significant numbers of H-2B workers include: amusement/recreation, hospitality (maids/housekeeping and hotel staff), meat/fish processing, construction, and restaurant (chefs, waiters/waitresses, and dishwashers).”

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-h-2b-visas/

Third paragraph

B.GillisDude my girlfriend was a J1 for three seasons and they most definitely are paid the same minimum wage as any other employee. They are subject to the same labor laws as you and I. H2B visas will usually make more than minimum wage because they’re considered skilled workers. They fill the place of the ignorant white privileged workers that are non existent. Companies have to apply for certifications in order to be eligible for international employees. Part of that certification process is proving that there is a substantial lack of employmees available.

Vail has a company wide minimum wage of 12.50 so the J1’s are making good money in cheap states such as Utah.

So you can fuck right off with your attitude.

**This post was edited on Aug 27th 2020 at 8:24:31pm

Ever hear of tax breaks, you stupid fuck?

BUT I'M SURE THE CENTER OF IMMIGRATION STUDIES IS SO NOT LEGIT ON THIS MATTER.

https://cis.org/Memorandum/How-Employers-Cheat-Americas-Aging-Hiring-Foreign-Workers


Its hilarious seeing a self-proclaimed white boy/girl/smaller.they/cis.jr defending Vail as diverse because they take advantage of immigrant workers for profit. Maybe you should learn about the system your so-called girlfriend went through.

**This post was edited on Aug 27th 2020 at 10:02:44pm

MXmxAgain, the only thing I said about visas is that all people, regardless of color or job title is expected to work the front lines when the visas run out.


Again, why do you assume visa = non white. Many, if not most of the ski instructors were white male Christians from Western Europe. They were on a visa and disappeared towards the end of the season. You are making quite a few racist assumptions while trying to be a social justice warrior.

Also, many of the entry level non white visa workers I worked with at deer valley seemed to be rich Brazilian kids taking a break from college. They told me that they were leaving before the visa runs out so they can go to Vegas and “spend it all”. The pack of about a dozen Brazilian lifties did indeed leave sooner then others. Again, you are making racist assumptions.

my point was there are non white customers at the most luxurious ski resort in the world. The ski resort doesn’t care about your race of job title, they expect you to pitch in as a team when needed. Skiing isn’t racist, park skiing embraces black dominated music genres, fashion, Ebonics. Skiing isn’t racist, there isn’t anything ski resorts are purposely doing to discriminate. They will gladly take you some regardless of color or if you snowboard, snow bike, snow blade, ski, etc. Skiing has low non white participation due to economics.

You're calling me racist dude? Bro you need to check yourself, you're putting words in my mouth and mixing me up with people in this thread, I simply asked you if you knew what a J1 was and then edited my post because you do and I was only wondering why you asked skiierman "Why are you assuming Deer Valley is hiring people of color for entry level positions?" because you know they do, of course not all J1's are non-white but you know that ski resorts hire 100s of J1s and they are mostly not white.

I dunno what youre first point in this paragraph is, I feel like you keep saying shit that nobody has brought up or even talked about, at all dude, what the fuck is your issue here? When did we or anyone say ski resorts are racist? Did you post in the wrong thread or something?

MXmxExactly. Just look at the attitude on this thread including from supposed moderators.

No wonder there’s so many profiles here where people haven’t logged on in months or years.

Who are you calling out here? Just be up front, calling us "supposed moderators" is so passive aggressive dude.

This thread has absolutely no reflection on old account or who logs in anymore, you are completely off and have no idea what you are talking about. You just started using the site again recently, dont come on here and start shit talking the site you're using at your own free will bud.

The whole point of the article was blindly throwing out statistics on non while skiers without going much deeper into why than racism. He also offered up a whole bunch of anecdotes and I offered my own to draw conclusions rather then hard facts.

His article was lazy journalism trying to tie skiing with a popular topic to get clicks. He didn’t bother to offer hard facts or even ask non white people why they don’t ski.

i only said one thing about visas and that is when they leave everyone is expected to the front lines regardless of who you are. Working at a ski resort, we don’t care about color rather then working as a team to get things done.




So you didn’t say this?:

”Thats not what I said, at all, but because of J1 visa, as you know, there are many non-white employees that work entry level jobs at resorts aka minimum wage jobs, food/bev, lifty, lodging. Its not an assumption, its true that many resorts hire non-white people for many entry level jobs. This has nothing to do with non-entry level jobs as we aren't talking about that, you literally just brought it up.

I was wondering why you posed such a stupid fucking question when you know that resorts hire 100s of J1 employees every year and they struggle to fill those positions without J1 workers.”

You assumed that if you are on a visa and/ or non white you are entry level. Do the white male PSIA certified ski instructors know this? If skiing and/ or the business that run ski resorts were so racist why have non white people work there?

Resorts have a hard time filing jobs mostly because of housing. Other issues are that it’s temporary employment and low pay. The ski resorts don’t pay enough to rent a apartment on your own that’s not subsidized. I’m a white male and had the same issues working at ski resorts.

The article was about how racist and unwelcoming skiing is towards non whites. All of my skis (the K2, Faction and Black Crows) are made with dead wood that can’t think or be racist. That leaves ski businesses and people who ski. Ski businesses don’t care about race on many levels. There was no proof or alternate opinion on why there may be low participation amongst non whites skiing (cost, transportation, having a job where you may not get time off, etc)

I need to check myself? What’s the white percentage of the population where you live? I grew up in inner city Minneapolis and currently live in inner city Los Angeles. I can take a picture out my window and you’ll see people of all colors living in beat up RVs and tents on the street. Can you say the same? Being exposed to race and poverty has been apart of my since birth.

So why are there so many abandoned profiles here?

eheathYou're calling me racist dude? Bro you need to check yourself, you're putting words in my mouth and mixing me up with people in this thread, I simply asked you if you knew what a J1 was and then edited my post because you do and I was only wondering why you asked skiierman "Why are you assuming Deer Valley is hiring people of color for entry level positions?" because you know they do, of course not all J1's are non-white but you know that ski resorts hire 100s of J1s and they are mostly not white.

I dunno what youre first point in this paragraph is, I feel like you keep saying shit that nobody has brought up or even talked about, at all dude, what the fuck is your issue here? When did we or anyone say ski resorts are racist? Did you post in the wrong thread or something?

MXmxThe whole point of the article was blindly throwing out statistics on non while skiers without going much deeper into why than racism. He also offered up a whole bunch of anecdotes and I offered my own to draw conclusions rather then hard facts.

His article was lazy journalism trying to tie skiing with a popular topic to get clicks. He didn’t bother to offer hard facts or even ask non white people why they don’t ski.

i only said one thing about visas and that is when they leave everyone is expected to the front lines regardless of who you are. Working at a ski resort, we don’t care about color rather then working as a team to get things done.




So you didn’t say this?:

”Thats not what I said, at all, but because of J1 visa, as you know, there are many non-white employees that work entry level jobs at resorts aka minimum wage jobs, food/bev, lifty, lodging. Its not an assumption, its true that many resorts hire non-white people for many entry level jobs. This has nothing to do with non-entry level jobs as we aren't talking about that, you literally just brought it up.

I was wondering why you posed such a stupid fucking question when you know that resorts hire 100s of J1 employees every year and they struggle to fill those positions without J1 workers.”

You assumed that if you are on a visa and/ or non white you are entry level. Do the white male PSIA certified ski instructors know this? If skiing and/ or the business that run ski resorts were so racist why have non white people work there?

Resorts have a hard time filing jobs mostly because of housing. Other issues are that it’s temporary employment and low pay. The ski resorts don’t pay enough to rent a apartment on your own that’s not subsidized. I’m a white male and had the same issues working at ski resorts.

The article was about how racist and unwelcoming skiing is towards non whites. All of my skis (the K2, Faction and Black Crows) are made with dead wood that can’t think or be racist. That leaves ski businesses and people who ski. Ski businesses don’t care about race on many levels. There was no proof or alternate opinion on why there may be low participation amongst non whites skiing (cost, transportation, having a job where you may not get time off, etc)

I need to check myself? What’s the white percentage of the population where you live? I grew up in inner city Minneapolis and currently live in inner city Los Angeles. I can take a picture out my window and you’ll see people of all colors living in beat up RVs and tents on the street. Can you say the same? Being exposed to race and poverty has been apart of my since birth.

So why are there so many abandoned profiles here?

1. I never disagreed with you or said anything about the topic of this thread, I'm not sure why you brought this up.
2. I said "many" not "all" im not sure why you are assuming that im assuming, dont you see how dumb that sounds? stop putting words in my mouth, you claim to have worked at a ski resort, im pretty sure we're on the same page here but you keep saying im assuming all j1s are non-white and all entry level workers are non white, you literally quoted what I said and i did not say that
3. How is me telling you to check yourself about race and poverty? jesus christ dude, im telling you to stop calling me out on shit i didnt say and stop calling out mods for shit they didnt say, you ever heard "check yourself before you wreck yourself" cmon dude
4. NS forums and the site have been on a stready decline since the introduction of social media, less people are logging onto websites on their computers and looking at social media on their phones, not because of peoples alleged bad attitudes.

Again, I never brought up the topic of this thread to you and I still don't wish to talk to you about it, which literally half of this post is about, so sorry for letting you down there

**This post was edited on Aug 28th 2020 at 12:45:07am

B.GillisWhat makes them cheap labor? They get paid the same as any other entry level employee. If anything it’s just the available labor. To my knowledge entry level J1’s at PC make significantly more money than they would working a position that pays Utah’s minimum wage.

A gopd percentage of j1s use it as a vacation. This visa gets them to the states for months. The job and money are irrelevant for many of them. Mountains can pay shit wages and it doesnt matter.

Cheap is relative but when these mountains complain that locals dont want to work, but pay less than taco bell there's a problem.


Also obligatory fuck vail. I still say a lot of people hate them for the wrong reasons but im stoked to never work for them again. See ya never northstar. Fuck rob and all his cats

Exactly. That’s what was explained to me by the lifties at the resort I worked. They were working at deer valley for fun and ear money then blowing it all at Vegas.

theabortionatorA gopd percentage of j1s use it as a vacation. This visa gets them to the states for months. The job and money are irrelevant for many of them. Mountains can pay shit wages and it doesnt matter.

Cheap is relative but when these mountains complain that locals dont want to work, but pay less than taco bell there's a problem.


Also obligatory fuck vail. I still say a lot of people hate them for the wrong reasons but im stoked to never work for them again. See ya never northstar. Fuck rob and all his cats

skiermanEver hear of tax breaks, you stupid fuck?

BUT I'M SURE THE CENTER OF IMMIGRATION STUDIES IS SO NOT LEGIT ON THIS MATTER.

https://cis.org/Memorandum/How-Employers-Cheat-Americas-Aging-Hiring-Foreign-Workers


Its hilarious seeing a self-proclaimed white boy/girl/smaller.they/cis.jr defending Vail as diverse because they take advantage of immigrant workers for profit. Maybe you should learn about the system your so-called girlfriend went through.

**This post was edited on Aug 27th 2020 at 10:02:44pm

Tax breaks because the employees in question aren’t citizens and they don’t receive the benefits of the FICA programs. Why should a company pay into that if the employee isn’t? I understand your point but my point is that resorts can not function without these employees and they aren’t searching for them to cut down on taxes it’s a business necessity.

MXmxExactly. That’s what was explained to me by the lifties at the resort I worked. They were working at deer valley for fun and ear money then blowing it all at Vegas.

Yeah. Im sure like anything else that doesn't apply to everyone but definitely a lot.

Idk its shitty that ski areas have somehow been able to justify paying poverty wages as if a ski area is some special experience. Sure there are plenty of jobs that they can get people out to with little or no experience, pay nothing and get a year or two out of people. I get it. Dont try and bullshit about the reasoning though.

I hope some of these resorts have a super tough time trying to find workers this fall. I don't like seeing visas dry up but watching some cheap bastard ski areas squirm would be nice. Pay your workers decent, train them to do more, win win. Instead it's constantly new people. People with 10 years experience at one mtn with skills all over dip out over a dollar or two. The mountains are just like "welp i guess theyre all lazy" "idk why nobody wants to work here? It's so strange we don't retain staff..."



Back to arguing about black people sorry.

theabortionatorA gopd percentage of j1s use it as a vacation. This visa gets them to the states for months. The job and money are irrelevant for many of them. Mountains can pay shit wages and it doesnt matter.

Cheap is relative but when these mountains complain that locals dont want to work, but pay less than taco bell there's a problem.


Also obligatory fuck vail. I still say a lot of people hate them for the wrong reasons but im stoked to never work for them again. See ya never northstar. Fuck rob and all his cats

Sorry in advance, this is gonna come off a little rough.

Yes I would say about half of the J1’s use it as a vacation but there is a significant amount that use the money they make to pay for their educations. So the job and money are definitely relevant to plenty. Money goes a long way when you’re making 3-4 times more than you would in your home country.

Its funny that you bitch about resorts not paying wages as often as you do. I’ve worked at Northstar for 7 years now and I’m making $50k. In my experience the resorts pay the employees that are worth a damn and aren’t jaded fuck offs like you and my roommate. You have the same complaints about every resort you work at and you always leave in the same manner. Sure being at northstar isn’t the greatest work experience and I have days that I hate it but it’s 500 times better than working for a regular company. It’s all what you make of it man.

B.GillisSorry in advance, this is gonna come off a little rough.

Yes I would say about half of the J1’s use it as a vacation but there is a significant amount that use the money they make to pay for their educations. So the job and money are definitely relevant to plenty. Money goes a long way when you’re making 3-4 times more than you would in your home country.

Its funny that you bitch about resorts not paying wages as often as you do. I’ve worked at Northstar for 7 years now and I’m making $50k. In my experience the resorts pay the employees that are worth a damn and aren’t jaded fuck offs like you and my roommate. You have the same complaints about every resort you work at and you always leave in the same manner. Sure being at northstar isn’t the greatest work experience and I have days that I hate it but it’s 500 times better than working for a regular company. It’s all what you make of it man.

Yeah go fuck yourself. I'm not mad but yeah.

Good for you, you managed to do alright. I'm happy for you. Honestly. But I've seen them bone so many people over the years. Employees with a shit ton of experience that can winch, groom parks, make snow, weld, do maintenance stuff, and know the mtn dipping out because it's just not worth it. These aren't shitty jaded employees, these are people with skills who work hard, and are willing to work for less but at a certain point want to be above the poverty line. It's great you're doing well but honestly fuck you for insinuating that anyone that has a gripe is a trash enployee that's just jaded. Thats complete fucking bullshit.

There are people with a deep passion for the ski industry. People that could do other higher paying jobs but have skills to give back and also enjoy what they do. Who the fuck are you to shit on them for wanting to continue working in the ski industry but also wanting to pay rent and buy groceries and maybe pay other bills in the same month?
I know a decent amount about northstar. Im no top employee there. There's people with a decade plus that are frustrated and many bailing. I'm not the worlds best anything, but I know I'm sure as fuck worth more than taco bell's starting wage. And it probably would have taken another 2-5 years to get even that.

So once again go fuck yourself. It's great you like it, it's great you're getting paid. But you clearly don't know anything about me or some of the people I mentioned.

BTW, I worked a full season at my home mtn in NY. Welded a bunch of new features, found some cheap ones a mtn was selling and refurbished them. The first rail they had I bought off craiglist with my own money.

I fucking love the ski industry. I saved that mtn a ton of money. Our rail park rivaled some of the best shit around though small. We had people driving 4 hours to come just to hit them and sesh or film. Don't fucking come at me about being jaded. I've been fucked over hard by several ski areas. Like anything else, many times the job that's pitched is not what you get.

I finally got a good opportunity at a spot and took it. Vail can suck a dick. A few people are able to make a living there. That's the truth. Fuck this "It's all what you make of it" shit. Getting paid less than taco bell is what it is. That's the fucking truth. I got 3 years there. Would have done 20 but there was no room for growth. So again, I'm glad you're doing well. But please realize you're massively in the minority. So dont come at me with your bullshit because it is in fact total bullshit.

This is 100% the hardest I've ever ranted at a member by far but I woukd absolutely do it again. You're somehow oblivious to how lucky you are in that company, shitting myself and a bunch of people way better than me that work the jobs that hold that mtn together and basically telling me I'm a jaded piece of shit and if I was more positive I'd make a good living there.

That's 100% provable bullshit, you're out of touch, and you can go fuck yourself.

Peace. Actually thought we were sort or friends. But maybe whatever raise you got went to your head. Im going to continue pursuing my passion, you can keep judging me and other mtn opps while sucking up to mgmt or whatever you do. You're so fancy sorry Im not. Good luck with that. See ya never.

My only regret about that post is hijaking the thread. Would post again.

B.GillisTax breaks because the employees in question aren’t citizens and they don’t receive the benefits of the FICA programs. Why should a company pay into that if the employee isn’t? I understand your point but my point is that resorts can not function without these employees and they aren’t searching for them to cut down on taxes it’s a business necessity.

"VAIL ONLY HIRES VISA WORKERS TO INCREASE DIVERSITY! THEY HAVE NO OTHER REASON FOR DOING SO!!"

(gets provided a link showing how companies like Vail take advantage of the visa program for cheap labor)

"YEAH BUT THEY'RE A COMPANY! HOW ELSE DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO HIRE MORE DIVERSE WORKERS UNLESS THEY CAN PROFIT FROM IT!?"

Not trying to be offensive at all, but do you think 50k after 7 years is reasonable? And in California?

B.GillisSorry in advance, this is gonna come off a little rough.

Yes I would say about half of the J1’s use it as a vacation but there is a significant amount that use the money they make to pay for their educations. So the job and money are definitely relevant to plenty. Money goes a long way when you’re making 3-4 times more than you would in your home country.

Its funny that you bitch about resorts not paying wages as often as you do. I’ve worked at Northstar for 7 years now and I’m making $50k. In my experience the resorts pay the employees that are worth a damn and aren’t jaded fuck offs like you and my roommate. You have the same complaints about every resort you work at and you always leave in the same manner. Sure being at northstar isn’t the greatest work experience and I have days that I hate it but it’s 500 times better than working for a regular company. It’s all what you make of it man.

DesertStixNot trying to be offensive at all, but do you think 50k after 7 years is reasonable? And in California?

When you consider all the factors yes I do think it’s reasonable for the job that I do. No one seeks employment at a ski resort looking to get rich. The option to move up the ladder is there but I haven’t jumped yet.

I feel like this thread has gotten off track.

I don’t think racism in the skiing/snowboarding industry is nearly as prevalent as some people in here make it seem. If anything it’s more a class/wealth issue than a race issue.

I’m assuming you have at least an undergrad degree? If you’re happy with it then more power to you. I would feel like my time and labor was being taken advantage of after 7 years and only 50k.

Im not knocking you at all, if anything I’m trying to get you paid more lol

B.GillisWhen you consider all the factors yes I do think it’s reasonable for the job that I do. No one seeks employment at a ski resort looking to get rich. The option to move up the ladder is there but I haven’t jumped yet.

Charlie_KellyI feel like this thread has gotten off track.

I don’t think racism in the skiing/snowboarding industry is nearly as prevalent as some people in here make it seem. If anything it’s more a class/wealth issue than a race issue.

My bad. Also i agree. I do think it exists in plenty of the people. They're not going to yell obscenities at the person prolly but even in skiers comments and stuff. Idk. There are just racist douchers everywhere unfortunately. And the biggest barrier with skiing is probably geography. If you grow up in the northeast it's pretty easy to give it a whirl, other places not so much. Both in price, having local hills and school programs, friends that ski etc.

Charlie_KellyI feel like this thread has gotten off track.

I don’t think racism in the skiing/snowboarding industry is nearly as prevalent as some people in here make it seem. If anything it’s more a class/wealth issue than a race issue.

Ironic

being called BMOS all the time doesnt feel awesome

theabortionatorMy bad. Also i agree. I do think it exists in plenty of the people. They're not going to yell obscenities at the person prolly but even in skiers comments and stuff. Idk. There are just racist douchers everywhere unfortunately. And the biggest barrier with skiing is probably geography. If you grow up in the northeast it's pretty easy to give it a whirl, other places not so much. Both in price, having local hills and school programs, friends that ski etc.

Racism will always be around but saying that skiing or snowboarding is somehow “racist” seems like a stretch. 13% of the population is black. 60% of the population is white. Statistically there is going to be waaayyyy more white people skiing than black people. Not to mention that there is a lot more white people that live up north than black people. That’s just basic demographics. I’d love to see more POC get into the sport, that’s what we want, more diversity. But I’d also like to see more white people who normally don’t get to ski ski as well. Logistically it’s tough, especially the more north you go, where you have mountains like Jay or Sugarbush or Whiteface that have a mostly local demographic opposed to the weekend warriors commuting from MA, Southern NY and CT that mob southern VT, NH and Maine (SR primarily). I guess going back to my original post it just doesn’t seem like race comes into the equation. The biggest barrier to going to the mountain is getting there.

Charlie_KellyRacism will always be around but saying that skiing or snowboarding is somehow “racist” seems like a stretch. 13% of the population is black. 60% of the population is white. Statistically there is going to be waaayyyy more white people skiing than black people. Not to mention that there is a lot more white people that live up north than black people. That’s just basic demographics. I’d love to see more POC get into the sport, that’s what we want, more diversity. But I’d also like to see more white people who normally don’t get to ski ski as well. Logistically it’s tough, especially the more north you go, where you have mountains like Jay or Sugarbush or Whiteface that have a mostly local demographic opposed to the weekend warriors commuting from MA, Southern NY and CT that mob southern VT, NH and Maine (SR primarily). I guess going back to my original post it just doesn’t seem like race comes into the equation. The biggest barrier to going to the mountain is getting there.

Yeah I feel ya. I don't care where you're from, guy or girl, gender or sexuality. If youre shredding and having fun sweet. But if you snake me on my favorite down rail to sidejump I might stab you.

Burton has a program getting people from the cities out to ride. That shit is sick. Also for learn to ski month mtns threw down some epic deals. Boreal had a ticket, rental, and lesson deal for $69 bucks i think. That's as crazy affordable as it really gets. Super cool to see offering like that in parts of the country where it's tough to get into it. People don't live near snow, have the gear, etc.

I hope to see more stuff like that. Also more parks like ruby hill and there was ankther one in the midwest would be sweet. Close to cities and cheap af or free. Problem is that's snkw dependent which rules out a lot of places. Even ruby is only open like 3 months if that.

Idk. Always down to see people get into skiing and share the same stoke that keeps us sliding around on chunks of wood. Giggling like children trying dumb tricks that dont matter or making fat g turns on groomers. Skiing is decent

Charlie_KellyRacism will always be around but saying that skiing or snowboarding is somehow “racist” seems like a stretch. 13% of the population is black. 60% of the population is white. Statistically there is going to be waaayyyy more white people skiing than black people. Not to mention that there is a lot more white people that live up north than black people. That’s just basic demographics. I’d love to see more POC get into the sport, that’s what we want, more diversity. But I’d also like to see more white people who normally don’t get to ski ski as well. Logistically it’s tough, especially the more north you go, where you have mountains like Jay or Sugarbush or Whiteface that have a mostly local demographic opposed to the weekend warriors commuting from MA, Southern NY and CT that mob southern VT, NH and Maine (SR primarily). I guess going back to my original post it just doesn’t seem like race comes into the equation. The biggest barrier to going to the mountain is getting there.

100% spot on. Great prospective. Transportation is another mega factor. Denver and NYC both come to mind as great opportunities though to get minorities into the sport as they have rail systems to mountains.

theabortionatorYeah I feel ya. I don't care where you're from, guy or girl, gender or sexuality. If youre shredding and having fun sweet. But if you snake me on my favorite down rail to sidejump I might stab you.

Burton has a program getting people from the cities out to ride. That shit is sick. Also for learn to ski month mtns threw down some epic deals. Boreal had a ticket, rental, and lesson deal for $69 bucks i think. That's as crazy affordable as it really gets. Super cool to see offering like that in parts of the country where it's tough to get into it. People don't live near snow, have the gear, etc.

I hope to see more stuff like that. Also more parks like ruby hill and there was ankther one in the midwest would be sweet. Close to cities and cheap af or free. Problem is that's snkw dependent which rules out a lot of places. Even ruby is only open like 3 months if that.

Idk. Always down to see people get into skiing and share the same stoke that keeps us sliding around on chunks of wood. Giggling like children trying dumb tricks that dont matter or making fat g turns on groomers. Skiing is decent

Lmao yep. Most people I can't stand on the mountain are old white guys tbh. Either snaking me or got that I'm superior attitude. Then again some old white dudes are super chill pillars of our culture and skiing/boarding stoke.

Totally forgot about learn to ski/board programs. They are really cheap and incentivizing.

This is the percent AA for several states with large ski resorts.

Utah - 1.27%
Wyoming - 1.29%
Colorado - 4.28%
Washington - 3.74%
Vermont - 0.87%
Montana - 0.67%
Idaho - 0.95%
Maine - 1.03%

what

broken_skier0This is the percent AA for several states with large ski resorts.

Utah - 1.27%
Wyoming - 1.29%
Colorado - 4.28%
Washington - 3.74%
Vermont - 0.87%
Montana - 0.67%
Idaho - 0.95%
Maine - 1.03%

deleted

**This post was edited on Aug 30th 2020 at 2:47:35pm

Stop hating skiers who are minorities and start hating skiers in jeans

Dolan skis in jeans

little1337Stop hating skiers who are minorities and start hating skiers in jeans

I agree with the message: we need to make it easier and more welcoming for people to join this sport. However, while I appreciate someone sharing their personal perspective, I find some of the points unconvincing.

He plays into the right wing talking point that 'liberals hate America' by arguing that wearing flags on gaper day means you celebrate all the problems with the country. Can't you be patriotic and also recognize past and current flaws? Its also bizarre to assert that anyone wearing 70's style clothes is a throwback to an "era when the nation was violently hostile to BIPOC." He must really hate bell bottoms.

I'm not sure that wearing baggy clothes is akin to blackface, as the author seems to argue. The 'thug' style of the mid 2000s was a pushback against the straight laced, pretentious, sweater around the neck image that skiing had. It was a way for people to assert their independence, to create a more free and open style where city streets become ski runs and you didn't have to ski groomers at Aspen to have fun. Needless to say, the n word is bad though.

I wish the author focused more on this point: "the reality is that skiing was not created with BIPOC in mind." If you designed skiing today to get more POC involved, it would look very different. Instead, the direction skiing has taken is largely due to the corporate interests involved and the physical and economic forces on the sport. I see three main barriers to getting more POC involved:

Physical:
Skiing takes place in the mountains, which are usually far from population centers which generally have higher concentrations of minorities. This creates an access problem, where you need a car (or plane) to go skiing. The complete lack of public transit or affordable options makes it harder for anyone living in the city to go skiing even if they wanted to. To address this there could be more city park rail-gardens where the climate supports it, to bring skiing closer to where people actually live. Better transit like Denver's 'ski train' could also help. There is no cheap way to start skiing in most areas, which leads to the next issue...

Economic: There has been a massive consolidation of ski resorts in the industry resulting in a handful of corporations controlling most of the access. Corporations exist to make money, and they have decided that annual passes and destinations resorts are the best way to do that. Countless town ski hills have closed down, reducing the more affordable entry points into the sport. A casual day trip to the mountain ends up becoming a large and expensive ordeal, which only exacerbates existing income inequalities that are often drawn along racial lines. I would argue though that the whiteness of skiing is more a symptom than a disease, and that if we can increase equity, more POC can join the sport. That is, unless the culture is so whitewashed they don't feel welcome.

Cultural: The author shared several inexcusable comments that he received, which of course have no place in a welcoming community. No matter how welcoming the skiing community gets though, minorities will still feel out of place if nobody else looks like them. Its like the time I went to a friends bbq where I was the only white guy. Sure I was welcome, but hard not to feel like the odd one out. As a community we need to be extra careful to be inclusive, as well as encouraging more POC in the industry like the author suggests.

little1337Stop hating skiers who are minorities and start hating skiers in jeans

We had skinny jean aundays in Africa. Not gonna lie, shit was pretty fun

Author here. Just want to say I'm grateful to be a catalyst in folks on NS beginning dialogues and, in some cases, beginning to think about equity and belonging for the first time. I used firm language in my essay to give the reader the dignity of me not sugar-coating anything. I wrote from personal experience as a person of color and used terminology as defined by leaders in antiracism and antiracist educational thought--mostly Ibram X. Kendi and Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum. Dismissing such terms as liberal woke garbage feels like an unwillingness to learn. If I thought gaper day was like a Klan meeting, or if I thought all skiers were white supremacists, or if I thought the physical act of sliding down snow on a mountain was oppressive I would have said so. Asking people of color to use different language to pre-preemptively avoid the road block of your understanding is a form of tone-policing, which privileges language of the oppressor and discounts the point. Readers may need to do some extra research if you want to fully understand my essay, and I believe they are intellectually capable of doing so, especially considering how much research goes into building a case to rationalize simply not listening.

Also, folks seem to like to elevate their own experiences as some kind of reason to not believe that I experienced racism, or that it doesn't exist, or that it doesn't exist in skiing. I value people sharing their experiences, but the denial of mine shouldn't have a place especially if it's somehow trying to be an argument against the existence of racism... White people don't experience racism as it is defined by systems of power, and whiteness holds power. I never said you and your friends actively hate BIPOC who go skiing (again, if I meant that I would have said it), yet there are a myriad of unsolicited defenses along those lines in response to my essay across the internet.

It seems like folks who have spoken up here are getting lost in the willows surrounding my ideas about gaper day and Jerry interactions. It seems like everyone has a personal interpretation of those things that absolve them of considering the exclusionary impact it can have. The simple question is: is making fun of gapers and Jerries an act of welcoming or gatekeeping? Stop pushing this focus on individual intention and ignoring impacts, because who the fuck is going to stick around long enough to hear about your intent when they see that their appearance is being ridiculed by, probably, rich white kids? You can argue like you're right as long as you listen like you're wrong.

BTW, I just learned that Rob Katz, CEO of Vail Resorts just shared my essay as a guiding text for all professional teams to consider as Vail claims to prioritize DEI work. We'll see what happens there, but I know as a person of color that having the endorsement of a rich, powerful, white man does wonders for validating one's words among other white people.

That's all I've got in response for now, I'm a busy science teacher with deep roots in skiing who had a chance to share my perspective with a largely white audience--an audience that is historically void of the perspectives of people of color. Hope if you're reading this far down that you can see some value in what I'm putting out there. I do it because I love skiing so dearly that I'm willing to be loudly honest about the flaws I see in its foundations and fabric. It feels great to get to speak my truth. Hope ya'll can appreciate that. I wish I had answers to how to do everything that needs to be done, but I know it has to do with power, and I know skiers need to consider their privilege more, and truly think about whiteness and how it is valued, privileged, and accepted as the norm in the world of skiing. One cannot work against racism/white supremacy without first learning to identify them where they rear themselves. Unfortunately, the ski industry and skiers seem to be going through deep growing pains at the start of this first step.

peace,
G

broken_skier0This is the percent AA for several states with large ski resorts.

Utah - 1.27%
Wyoming - 1.29%
Colorado - 4.28%
Washington - 3.74%
Vermont - 0.87%
Montana - 0.67%
Idaho - 0.95%
Maine - 1.03%

edit: misread

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 6:49:43am

shinbangclanedit: misread

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 6:49:43am

Look, the main reason, you don't see a lot of people of color on ski hills in some states is because those states don't have a lot people of color. If ~1% of Vermont, Idaho, Montana, Maine, Wyoming, or Utah are people of color, is there any surprise you don't see more people of color at the local ski hill in those states? The root cause, if there is one, is why more people of color don't live in those states.

is this the powder mag that used to be about skiing powder?
lemee know how the smjw stuffs works out for your bottom line and the future of the magazine

The referenced post has been removed.

Racism will always be an issue because people are bad and will continue to do bad things. It will just keep evolving and taking different forms. When you see it call it out.

The referenced post has been removed.

Real bump or incoming spam?

Less income because of generations of systematic racism. Subprime housing far from outdoor recreation that was planned decades ago by racist politicians. A societal structure based on racism that has made POC less likely to try outdoor sports.

The fact that white people still aren't aware (ignorant) that this is a huge problem is fucked. Poor obviously means that you can't do things that cost money. Black, white, whatever if you are poor it's hard to participate in outdoor recreation. However the fact that people here are over looking is the wealth disparity between white people and POC that was caused by racism.

Here is a quote from @Eheath that sums up why we still have a long way to go.

"I think another thing most people don't think about is that the majority of POC probably don't want to ski, most white people don't even ski."

Can you spot the ignorance?

Skiing wasn't always elitist sport where a day ticket cost $200. Its also a sport that exists close to HUGE population areas that have large amounts of POC. Sure UT, MT, WY don't have a large precent of minorities populations, but NY, MA, MI, MN, CT, NJ all do. All these states have ski areas that are close to these population areas. People get hung up on the rocky mountain states as an example of why POC don't ski based on percentages of population in those states. They are a small part of the overall picture.

What can be done? Probably waking the fuck up and seeing that this is a problem is a good first step. Everyone was all about supporting BLM and fundraising last summer and it's basically been forgotten about. Where are the dancing influencers on Tiktok pressuring resorts and brands to create programs to combat this? What the fuck is NS doing? What is the Xgames doing? What am I doing?

The largest growing populations are with minorities, and because of systematic racism they have lower income. With skiing becoming more expensive it will only exclude them more creating less opportunities for POC to enjoy skiing.

Smaller mom and pop local ski areas gotta get some more support....tough on east coast though where you need snowmaking 100 percent now. Bigger resorts have to step in to give funding to those smaller hills which will allow for easier accessibility and hopefully making them a future customer. Up in Farmington ME, Boyne resorts paid for a free student pass at the small local mtn to those enrolled at the local university, free rentals through outing club and vans fairly often.

I remember when elementary schools had programs during school every month. They'd take a trip to do some sort of outdoor activity in the winter. Not many of these exist because of budget cuts and grumpy old taxpayers claiming "they took r jobs".

There are a ton of sports like this, cross country skiing is the same thing, lax etc.

WormracerLess income because of generations of systematic racism. Subprime housing far from outdoor recreation that was planned decades ago by racist politicians. A societal structure based on racism that has made POC less likely to try outdoor sports.

The fact that white people still aren't aware (ignorant) that this is a huge problem is fucked. Poor obviously means that you can't do things that cost money. Black, white, whatever if you are poor it's hard to participate in outdoor recreation. However the fact that people here are over looking is the wealth disparity between white people and POC that was caused by racism.

Here is a quote from @Eheath that sums up why we still have a long way to go.

"I think another thing most people don't think about is that the majority of POC probably don't want to ski, most white people don't even ski."

Can you spot the ignorance?

Skiing wasn't always elitist sport where a day ticket cost $200. Its also a sport that exists close to HUGE population areas that have large amounts of POC. Sure UT, MT, WY don't have a large precent of minorities populations, but NY, MA, MI, MN, CT, NJ all do. All these states have ski areas that are close to these population areas. People get hung up on the rocky mountain states as an example of why POC don't ski based on percentages of population in those states. They are a small part of the overall picture.

What can be done? Probably waking the fuck up and seeing that this is a problem is a good first step. Everyone was all about supporting BLM and fundraising last summer and it's basically been forgotten about. Where are the dancing influencers on Tiktok pressuring resorts and brands to create programs to combat this? What the fuck is NS doing? What is the Xgames doing? What am I doing?

The largest growing populations are with minorities, and because of systematic racism they have lower income. With skiing becoming more expensive it will only exclude them more creating less opportunities for POC to enjoy skiing.

No one will read the articles posted below, but racial disparities in winter sports have been the topic of a fair bit of research.

First one is by a historian. She talks about how race and racism shaped the development of skiing in the Western US and how that legacy bears heavily on the sport today. I guess they took down the free version of the article, but it is a classic if you can somehow find it!

Second one is by a sociologist (you've been warned!) and explores the contemporary and historical conditions that discourage or prevent POC from skiing. There's a part that discusses "extreme" skiing with respect to whiteness that will definitely ruffle some feathers on here.

WormracerThe largest growing populations are with minorities, and because of systematic racism they have lower income. With skiing becoming more expensive it will only exclude them more creating less opportunities for POC to enjoy skiing.

You are also fighting executive boards who know that much of their clientele is older racist white people who would rather not have black people skiing on their mountains in the first place. Look at the executives on any conglomerate owning multiple ski areas and I guarantee you they are largely good ol' boys.

His kid buys 30 dollar grams

BigPurpleSkiSuitYou are also fighting executive boards who know that much of their clientele is older racist white people who would rather not have black people skiing on their mountains in the first place. Look at the executives on any conglomerate owning multiple ski areas and I guarantee you they are largely good ol' boys.

animatorSo this article has been really controversial, both here and on Facebook (especially on Facebook). I want to give another perspective, also as a person of color. I am originally Korean, and I was raised in the United States until I was 10 years old, and then moved to and completed the rest of my schooling in Switzerland. I identify as Asian first and foremost, and a skier second.



I learned to ski in Europe, and as many people are aware, Switzerland especially is one of the most culturally diverse countries on the planet. I went to a high school where more than 150 different nationalities were represented. Skiing is ingrained in the culture to the extent that I didn’t know a single person who did not ski (except due previous injuries or other similar circumstances). I had friends from all over the world, people who, in the United States, one would not usually expect to see skiing. Haiti, Turkey, Portugal, The Netherlands, are some examples. What some people within the United States are not understanding is, it’s different. That’s not to say that American skiers are not skiers, or that they are less dedicated to the sport, if anything they are more so. Every single skier I’ve met having lived in New England for 3 years is a better skier than myself, but that’s not the point. The point is that even though there are mountain towns, and even though there are people who wake up every day they can to drive 3 hours to the mountain, skiing is not ingrained in the culture as a whole as it is in Europe, simply because not everyone in the United States has access to do so. It is certainly prevalent in New England, and out West, but not to the extent that it is in Europe, where in almost every country, one can be at the mountains within the hour. This becomes more obvious to someone after experiencing both cultures, and identifying as such.



I was never once made aware of my race while growing up, simply because of the accessibility and the sheer number of different races that participate in our sport. Like I said, I had friends from all over the world who skied with me.



Graduating high school and coming back to the States for school, I was greeted with a different version of ski culture. As I stated before, all of the friends I have made during my time at the University of New Hampshire are more talented than I am, and just as dedicated to the pursuit as myself. But they are all white. For me, this isn’t a problem. Even though my campus is 90% white, I have yet to be reminded that I am not part of that 90%. On campus, at least. When I go north, things are different. At places like Loon Mountain, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, I have been approached by random skiers and told, “wow, you’re the first asian I have ever seen skiing.” Granted, maybe those people only ski 5 days a year. Maybe it’s true, that they haven’t seen an Asian person skiing before. But why do I need to be reminded of that? When I’m skiing, I identify as a skier, not as an Asian skier. What is the purpose of pointing that out? I have witnessed this many times, not just myself being reminded either, but other BIPOC too. People go to the mountains to ski, not to be told that they are, “the first -blank- person,” that someone has seen on the slopes. This is why, as white people, white Americans, cannot see this from a BIPOCs point of view. If I were a white American, no one would approach me and say, “Wow, you’re the first white guy I’ve ever seen skiing.” This approach is a reminder of racial prejudice and oppression, and it is the same for black people, Hispanic people, asian people. We don’t need to be reminded of what race we are, we’re well aware.



All of this being said, I wanted to extend my gratitude to most of you (not all), because this community is unique to the ski industry, and even to the world. Here, everyone is a skier. I haven’t been asked if I am white or not, and it doesn’t matter. People are here for information, good laughs, discussions, not to point out one members race. @VT_scratch , you especially presented a very coherent argument on your thread, and I appreciate it more than you will ever understand. This is about understanding that even though the largest barrier to skiing is financial, many BIPOC can pass through that barrier, but may not want to because of the underlying prejudice to being a person of color, that also happens to ski.

I get that those bringing up your race would make you feel uncomfortable, but I think context matters and if they were vibing you out or not.

I don’t feel it’s racist to acknowledge seeing a race doing something for the first time unless there’s an undertone.

Like if these people weren’t being asshats do you really think they thought “hey I’m gonna try to make this guy feel uncomfortable and unwelcomed about being Asian”. Like I think a lot of the time white people with poor social skills think they might come off more relatable acknowledging your race if it’s not common in their area.

Like I’ve traveled to different countries and once had an entire family of people from Africa stop me for a photo, and said it was purely said it was because I was white and they don’t see much white people. Had a cool convo after.

Multiple times in Indonesia I’ve had Asian tour bus groups come take selfies with me because I was a blonde white guy. Half the time they were cool and the other half they rudely chuckled and just walked off.

All of the times I didn’t care at all and thought it was funny, but heck I don’t live my day to day as minority and the crud that comes with that.

I just think context matters, and that acknowledging race does not mean racism or ill intent.

Skiblade420I get that those bringing up your race would make you feel uncomfortable, but I think context matters and if they were vibing you out or not.

I don’t feel it’s racist to acknowledge seeing a race doing something for the first time unless there’s an undertone.

Like if these people weren’t being asshats do you really think they thought “hey I’m gonna try to make this guy feel uncomfortable and unwelcomed about being Asian”. Like I think a lot of the time white people with poor social skills think they might come off more relatable acknowledging your race if it’s not common in their area.

Like I’ve traveled to different countries and once had an entire family of people from Africa stop me for a photo, and said it was purely said it was because I was white and they don’t see much white people. Had a cool convo after.

Multiple times in Indonesia I’ve had Asian tour bus groups come take selfies with me because I was a blonde white guy. Half the time they were cool and the other half they rudely chuckled and just walked off.

All of the times I didn’t care at all and thought it was funny, but heck I don’t live my day to day as minority and the crud that comes with that.

I just think context matters, and that acknowledging race does not mean racism or ill intent.

Context definitely matters but at the same time, we’re all skiers. Being a tourist is very different than being on the slopes and having skiing being such a huge part of who I am. Acknowledging race at that point is just weird to because, why don’t people just see me as a skier? Rather than, an Asian dude who skis, yanno?
also, “I didn’t care at all, but I don’t live my day to day as a minority” is a good point of view. Living as a monitory gives you a very different perspective on the things that people point out. Not saying that you’re not cultured or that you should mind, but just as far as a minority’s perspective it’s pretty different. But your input and your views are valid for sure and I always appreciate good conversation about topics like this!

It is incredible how every single facet of life needs to be brought back to race.

The higher ups want more control and fear in people, and the best way to do that is to create division.

At the end of the day these major ski towns have extremely low percentages of minorities, a clear reason why you see less of them on the hill amongst a few other factors that hold less weight.

If you keep pushing the narrative that this industry is completely or mostly racist then you’re seriously just causing more division.

There’s always going to be racists and assholes, and heck some old people are stuck in their ways and it sucks, but they’ll be phased out soon in 20 years.

just try to promote love and acceptance and if you see someone being an asshole or racist to someone then call them out. See a minority in the lift line or somewhere on the hill? Be nice, talk to them, make them feel welcome. (Realize bringing up their race might make them feel uncomfortable though haha)

peace.

animatorContext definitely matters but at the same time, we’re all skiers. Being a tourist is very different than being on the slopes and having skiing being such a huge part of who I am. Acknowledging race at that point is just weird to because, why don’t people just see me as a skier? Rather than, an Asian dude who skis, yanno?
also, “I didn’t care at all, but I don’t live my day to day as a minority” is a good point of view. Living as a monitory gives you a very different perspective on the things that people point out. Not saying that you’re not cultured or that you should mind, but just as far as a minority’s perspective it’s pretty different. But your input and your views are valid for sure and I always appreciate good conversation about topics like this!

Yeah I totally can see how frustrating that can get! A large percentage of friends/people I ride with are minorities and haven’t ever had problems on the mountain or much hate in general, but I live in San Diego so my home mountain is bear and It’s probably a more accepting area than most resorts considering how close it is to LA and the border.



Some of my best friends are a pretty short guy and another is a 6’0 girl. I know it’s different but it gets me heated that a lot of other people always bring it up no matter what constantly in anything they do. Thanks for being chill! Good to bounce things off each other

shinbangclanSomewhat off topic, why is everyone saying "BIPOC" now? It's kind of a clunky word... has "minorities" become too abrasive these days?

Mainly because the term minorities is defined through a white frame of reference, plus the language is hierarchical by nature. There’s the “majority” and the “others.” BIPOC identifies individuals on their own terms, not in the context of whiteness.

also non white Americans will be the majority in the US within the next 30 years or so.