Official Ski Pressing/Shaping/Building/Constructing Thread

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Wannabe

woohoo now that i have the ski pdfs with the specs im readdy to make some molds!!! thanks to @buzzed

Jun 17 2013 6:38PM

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Wannabe

does any one know a material to print on that will disappear with epoxy spread on it. like have the paper disappear without the print disappearing.

Jun 18 2013 11:54PM

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DrZoidberg

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No Life

Rice paper, seems to go by several names though.

Jun 19 2013 12:12AM

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Insane

or use normal paper and add some white pigments to the epoxy.

Jun 19 2013 1:30AM

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Wannabe

can someone tell me something about how to know what the dimensions of your core should be???

Jun 20 2013 10:33PM

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No Life

Finally making some progress. I am nearly finished with my foam profile for the vacuum press. If you want any details or information on it just let me know and I will post them up.

Jun 20 2013 11:10PM

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Crazy Fool

Well, it depends on what weight of glass your using. A heavier glass will produce a stiffer ski if you use two identical cores.

I'd honestly start with a pretty baseline core setup like 2-11.5-2. Build the ski, and see what you get.

I also did the layup and had a cup of epoxy catalyze oddly on me (only 7 minutes into the layup) when I was soaking a VDS strip in it. (it got MEGA HOT, because of this rapid catalyzation,.It could be a variety of things that caused it such as:

1: I over-catalyzed the epoxy (although I swear I nailed the 100:47 by weight mix ratio)
2: I'm a n00b, and unaware that your not supposed to dip full strips of VDS (never read of this being an issue though)
3: Same as 2, however none of us have really realized the issue yet.
4: I didn't mix the epoxy evenly enough, which may have left part of the epoxy in the cup over-catalyzed, while the rest was good.

I think the layup is going to be okay. The epoxy I had used from the suspect cup that I already had on the ski was still a complete free flowing liquid. The only issues I can see with this layup are:

1: The potential that this epoxy that was on the ski gel'd before it had pressure on it.
2: When I pulled the VDS strip out, I slopped some of this catalyzing epoxy onto the base, and it DID gel. I scraped off the blobs, but I'm not 100% sure if I got ALL of them off.

Pretty frustrating to say the least, and I don't want to make the VDS/epoxy suspect. It was probably human error (I fucked up...) but I can't be certain at this point. I emailed the epoxy rep to get a better idea of what may have happened though.

Hopefully these skis will be okay though, I had the cores, the edges, the bases, everything prepped so nicely. I wanted to shoot for ON3P or DPS quality. It's just this daunting layup that may be my downfall.

And despite my life's cray-ness, we can't neglect other builders. ON3P posted this up on Facebook today:

Looks to be a two bay press for good use of space. That thing is beautiful! Can't wait to see it christened via using it's power to crush a beer can, the way all presses should be christened.

Jun 20 2013 11:11PM

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No Life

I'm gonna bet it's mostly #4, good thing you caught it and didn't burn your place down or something. Good luck and hope those skis turn out. Also any more info people have on core dimensions would be great. I am trying to make soft pow skis with a 110 mm waist so I am planning on a 2,8,2 with 19 oz glass.

Jun 20 2013 11:21PM

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Wannabe

Diggin' that wall unicorn!! thats a good ski graphic right der

Jun 20 2013 11:39PM

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Crazy Fool

Yeah, I've never heard of VDS catalyzing epoxy... Weird stuff. I was also doing the initial mxing with a drill press then a final mix with a auto painters stick to get the corners. And as soon as it started really cooking on me I made the dumb ass move of trying to save the VDS... As soon as I knew stuff was really fucky, the whole cup got tossed to the bottom of a steel pale. Never heard of epoxy lighting on fire before, but I've heard of stories upon stories of poly resins lighting on fire (and I use that stuff during my day job, so fire prevention is preeeety big with me) __________________________________ (I'm on an iPad mini and NS won't accept return to make paragraphs, this will suffice)______________________________ Your core though, 19 Oz. glass at a 2-8-2 profile will be super soft. Guessing even softer than EP Pro's. I'd shoot for at least a 9mm mid thickness. Other opinions for poplars would be nice though, as I'm not working with it...

Jun 21 2013 12:14AM

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Wannabe

yeah im using 22 oz glass unless you recommend 19... all poplar cores to for now

Jun 21 2013 12:16AM

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Wannabe

so i was thinking about putting an NS sticker on my core... that shouldn't cause a problem with the bonding would it?

Jun 21 2013 12:24AM

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No Life

Yeah, I've read a lot of the same stories, scary stuff. I am basing these skis on a pair I have so I think I will take some calipers to those and try to subtract the thickness of the non-core materials to figure them out. Thanks for the advice.

Jun 21 2013 12:54AM

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Crazy Fool

That would be a verry good way of going about it since you have materials to measure off of. Try to figure out what core materials the ski uses (who makes it, we can maybe find out easily) and then adjust your thickness accordingly based on a wood properties chart. I'll try to link it up tomorrow when I'm on the PC.

Jun 21 2013 1:00AM

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No Life

Yeah, atomic blogs, I couldn't find a core material for them online. I actually emailed atomic about it, just to try. Of course they ignored it but I am going to assume it's probably something similar to poplar or aspen.

Jun 21 2013 1:22AM

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Insane

Well not too sure about that. Might actually be a problem. I have never tried putting stickers into the layup. I am not sure that the sticker material will bound with the epoxy. So having a small sticker might not be a problem, but I wouldnt use a bigger one. Safest way is to go without sticker and draw something on the core.

To the other guy with the core question:

Would be really helpful to know how tall and heavy you are. I mean thats what matter for you. A ski with a core thickness of only 9mm would be waaaaaaaay to soft for me and would probably break pretty soon. I always used something like 11-12mm in the middle and went down to 2-3 on the tips and tails. But then again, I always used ash, no clue how big the difference between ash and poplar is.

Jun 21 2013 2:04AM

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No Life

Ok, thanks, I am 6'1" 175 lbs. I like softer skis, right now I am on atomic blogs, they are pretty soft and I like them a lot. I think they could be softer and I wouldnt mind if they were. Basically, I don't want to make a super stuff ski, I would rather end up with something like the old hell bents or lines. Of course I really don't want my skis breaking on me either. Also I was thinking that I would want a thiner core since my waist is wider than most of the skis I have seen with 11 mm cores. Thanks for the advice.

Jun 21 2013 3:02AM

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Insane

Well I am 6'4" and about 220 (working on that :P ) but the skis I built with a waist of about 120 and a core thickness of like 11.5 mm seem really really soft for me. I never had any real stiff skis (the ones I built were my first pow skis ever) but they still seem really soft to me...

Jun 21 2013 10:58AM

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Insane

hopefully this helps with people's core questions

as you can see, poplar is a very soft wood, and ash is on the harder side. I personally would never use a poplar core (certainly not full poplar). I particularly like maple cores, and for my own skis I generally make 3mm-9mm-3mm cores. I would describe these as medium flex. I would imagine a 2mm-8mm poplar core would be like wet noodles and become shot very easily.

Common Name

Modulus of Elasticity (kg/mm2)

Modulus of Rupture (kg/mm2)

Density (g/cm3)

Ash, black

1126

8.97

0.526

Ash, blue

984

9.82

0.603

Ash, green

1170

10.04

0.610

Ash, white

1249

11.01

0.638

Aspen

838

6.04

0.401

Birch, gray

797

6.88

0.552

Birch, paper

1119

8.79

0.600

Birch, sweet

1520

11.81

0.714

Birch, yellow

n/a

11.88

0.668

Fir, balsam

879

5.42

0.414

Fir, silver

1076

6.69

0.415

Maple, black

1141

9.37

0.620

Maple, red (soft)

1155

9.35

0.540

Maple, silver

805

6.34

0.506

Maple, sugar (hard)

1290

10.97

0.676

Poplar, balsam

716

4.76

0.331

Poplar, yellow

1058

6.52

0.427

Spruce, black

1069

7.24

0.428

Spruce, red

1071

7.15

0.413

Spruce, white

1001

6.38

0.431

Jun 21 2013 12:26PM

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Crazy Fool

That's the chart. The modulus of elasticity is what you want to look at; higher number = stiffer, smaller number = softer.

And the other thing to maybe note of, but I feel like its somewhat negligible, is the way your core is laminated. I think that a horizontally laminated core will make for a softer ski.

Your dimensions still sound reasonable for vertical lamination, and that's why I'm doubting the core lamination style will effect flex much.

Jun 21 2013 1:13PM

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KyleA

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Insane

According to your numbers, poplar is 30% less dense than maple and 93% as stiff. Why would you not use it?

Jun 21 2013 1:29PM

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Insane

not true for red maple vs balsam poplar, which i have found to be the most commonly available.

in that case poplar is only 62 percent as stiff as the maple.

@ninetyfour- I think lamination style should not affect stiffness if the core is made entirely out of the same wood. I don't know how accurate this is, but i feel like vertical lamination using alternating woods would affect the torsional properties across the width of the ski more so than it's longitudinal flex.

another important factor in stiffness has to do with the composites you use and has already been touched upon

i.e. what weight of fiberglass you use, how then fiberglass is braided (triax vs biax), how many layers you incorporate (I sandwich my cores between layers of 19 oz triax). you can even use kevlar though it is more expensive but significantly lighter, or put carbon stringers in the skis.

another great thing to do is cutout a piece of fiberglass slightly smaller than the shape of your skis to put within the edges of the ski. because the eyelets of the edges stick up a mm from the base of the ski, there is a thin hollow space between your base layer and first layer of composite (assuming you are putting a composite under your core, which you always should). by putting in the fiberglass layer that is just within the edges, you as solving this problem, and helping the overall structure of the ski..

Jun 21 2013 2:46PM

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DrZoidberg

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Wouldn't lamination style change how the grain is oriented, and change the flex?

What was the temp when you did the epoxy? On the the first surfboard I did I had the great idea of trying to glass in like 90 degrees. Needless to say, the pot was smoking rather quickly. Board cured fast though.

Jun 21 2013 4:22PM

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Insane

the grain is always oriented longitudinally (the length of the ski), whether you laminate vertically or horizontally.

and I always try to do epoxy work in the evening because it is cooler for that very reason

Jun 21 2013 6:07PM

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No Life

Wow! thanks for the advice! It looks like I will be doing more in the 10 or 11 range then, thanks!

Jun 21 2013 6:14PM

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Crazy Fool

@zoidberg. It was 22 Celsius when I did the layup. I took a screenshot of TWN on my phone so I could see temp and humidity. Hoping to do a few test samples and attempting to re-create what happened. I doubt it was the VDS though.

@max. You can definitely drop a piece of glass to fill the space created by edge teeth, and use two light layers. I'm using a rabbet though, as it's pretty easy to set up for myself.

And I did pull the skis out of the press today. They will be ridable for sure! Everything looks great, EXCEPT once again, the god damn VDS shifted on me. Some of it shifted out from underneath the edge. I have no clue why... I think some potential solutions are:

1. Make my rabbet even shallower, so the VDS is clamped tight between the edge and the core.
2. Use less epoxy on the bottom sheet of glass. I think the press is maybe flowing too much epoxy off the bottom sheet of glass, and when it does this and evacuates it from the center out, its washing the VDS out with it.

I'll trim them up and finish them, then post pictures. I'm pretty happy. However since I'll be building many more pairs over the summer, these may be a good reminder of how easy it can be to fuck up, and I'll do that by hanging them on the bedroom wall. OR I'll use them as an urban/hard jib ski. Do some destructive testing.

I'm also going to build another pair just like these and exclude the VDS from the layup. I'd like to get an idea of how different a ski feels without it. It should also be a good experience trying to focus more on good technique for doing a layup. So having a little bit more time by not having to put VDS down would be spent focusing on finding a good technique.

Jun 21 2013 8:41PM

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KyleA

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Insane

Are you mixing epoxy in one large batch or several small ones? The more resin and hardener you have mixed in a container, the quicker it goes exothermic.

You're using a room temp cure with entropy correct? It's going to be pretty difficult to get the VDS to stay in place if this is the case. The higher viscosity of the epoxy at room temp will push the VDS out.

Also, I wouldn't recommend leaving the VDS out of the layup. You will notice absolutely no difference in the ride of the ski, but they will delam more quickly. The VDS acts more as a shear layer that promotes the longevity of the bond rather than actually making a noticeably damper ride.

Jun 22 2013 12:01PM

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Crazy Fool

I mix 4 200 gram batches as I move through the layup. I could probably cut that amount back a hair more, or spread that out between 5 batches? And yeah, after reading more on VDS I definitely see that it's more purposeful as a shear layer. I am using this room temp stuff. So over the cure cycle, I can see why its flowing out so easily. I hate to say it but maybe I should take the time to make a PID and heating blanket setup, and switch over to a heat cure epoxy?

Jun 22 2013 1:38PM

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Crazy Fool

It looks like the key layup process for keeping the VDS over the edges goes like

Wet Edges ---> Wet out base sparingly ---> Wet out VDS strips on base, do NOT get them swimming ---> apply bottom glass sheet once again, sparingly.

Jun 23 2013 12:59AM

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Insane

So, this is how my pair turned out:

As I allready said, despite all the problems during the construction, they are pretty skiable. Really really soft tails though and not twintips, but skiable xD

Jun 23 2013 4:13AM

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Crazy Fool

So. I've been very busy with some family issues over the past week, and as a result I've been riding my new XC MTB bike to blow off some steam (and get in shape for next ski season. Gotta make sure my sponsored rider is on top of his game yo.)

Was bored tonight and taking a night off. Got some tool maintenance done, and brought the layup home so I can trim them out tomorrow. Nothing too spectacular to see on the topsheet, but I'm making ya wait anyways. Here however is a base shot:

So, You can see how 3 out of the 4 VDS strips got MEGA squirrely... The promising thing is however, is that the VDS towards the top of the picture laid down and stuck PERFECTLY. Hoping I can replicate that result on the next pair by doing a few things:

-Using less epoxy on the bottom sheet of glass and base.
-Wetting the VDS out on the base and not in the cup, using a brush. Just get the VDS shiny with epoxy.
-Making sure to use the brush to 'pre squeeze out' the VDS so that it's not swimming before it goes into the press.

Basically the main cause is how much epoxy is flowing out under pressure, and washing the VDS away with it. The only other thing I can do is going to a heating blanket setup and using a heat cure epoxy. I plan to be doing this within the next few months, but I will still be building with this room temp cure stuff for now.

______________________________________________________________________________________

And a quick update on the cup of epoxy that thermo-set pre maturely. It looks like the cause was none of my listed probable causes. We're pretty sure that it was caused by my own pre-heating of the Part-A of the epoxy. Entropy will turn into a crystallized, grainy, sugary liquid if it dips below a certain temperature. To turn it back into a liquid state, you heat it up and mechanically stir it. I heated the epoxy in the 1 gal container only 30 minutes prior to the layup, and the heat it retained was enough to propagate the thermal reaction of the epoxy.

Good thing to note, and I'll be taking temperature's of the epoxy should I need to heat it before I ever do a layup again.

Jun 29 2013 12:16AM

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Insane

^sick idea to see how your vds turns out. the shakiness of the vds really shouldn't matter as long as it covers the entire edge. it's really not there for any lamination purposes, but more to keep your edges from pulling out and help a slight amount with dampening. It's almost immeasurable how thin vds gets when it's pressed.

my suggestion for vds during layup- apply a healthy amount of epoxy to your bases. lay down the vds strips on top of your bases and press to apply epoxy. flip and repeat. then lay down over your edges. i find it is a efficient way to apply epoxy, and your strips aren't constantly moving out of place if you are painting the epoxy on.

Jun 29 2013 12:32AM

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Insane

sorry for double post but it also looks like you aren't putting fiberglass under your cores?

Jun 29 2013 12:37AM

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Crazy Fool

Thanks for the technique suggestions. I might take a night and play with some scrap test pieces to come up with some conclusions.

And believe it or not, there is glass in there. 1 layer of 22 oz.top and bottom, then 1 more layer in the binding area. The packing tape I used to mask off the base is still stuck to the ski, and it's got some mold release wax and spray adhesive, so it looks dirty, and as a result you can't see any of the weave. Garbage picture to, so it's just really hard to tell.

Jun 29 2013 12:51AM

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Crazy Fool

Ski profile shot:

Trimmed them all out with the jigsaw and beveled the sidewalls. I still have to sand the tips and tails to shape. Then treat the sidewalls, grind the base, and they're done. Despite the messed up VDS, I'm really happy with them. They flex reaaaally nicely, and the shape and profile are both gorgeous. Will hopefully start on a second pair of them this week.

Jun 30 2013 12:53AM

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Crazy Fool

Lovely... Image be like. "Cya!" Click on the little icon to see it.

Jun 30 2013 12:57AM

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Insane

well done, looking awesome!

Jun 30 2013 3:02AM

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loganimlach

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No Life

i am so fucking impressed man, this is awesome. it'll be atleast a year or two before i get a garage, but a press is #2 on my list of items to build (right behind a CNC).

Jun 30 2013 10:03AM

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Insane

getting a cnc would be so sick. do you have any experience writing programs for them/ how difficult is it to learn?

@ninetyfour how do you go about grinding your bases? you just have a shop do it?

Jun 30 2013 12:43PM

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Crazy Fool

Thanks again for the stoke guys. I will be finishing them up this afternoon aside from the base grind.

I'd love to make a CNC as well. I think it takes away from that 'hand made' experience a lot, however it would speed up production times so much. With a drag knife installed you would never need a template to cut out base material or tip spacers ever again. You wouldn't need your template to do an edge rabbet. And you wouldn't need a planer and sled or router and bridge to profile cores. Plus you could mill some very intricate flex patterns into a ski's core as well. Super worth it IMO.

And for the base grind, I had my buddy do the first pair at a shop on just a belt. (he kind of works at sport chek) Yesterday when I was at another shop though, where I'm buddy's with the owners son he told me he'd grind them up for free. So I'll probably work out some kind of a deal with them and pay them somehow. And they have both stone and belt autofeeds. So that should be a pretty awesome setup to get my stuff in tune.

Jun 30 2013 1:03PM

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Insane

sick deal. ultimately I'd like to get my home setup to include a CNC, and some used equipment like a base grinder, edge grinder, and waxer. but that's a long way, and tens of thousands of dollars, away.

Jun 30 2013 1:14PM

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Crazy Fool

There are soooooo many tools and machines I'd love to have. This is up there on my list right now:

How are you guys finishing your sidewalls right now? I'm just deflashing with a sanding drum in my drill press, and then beveling with my palm router and angled foot. I think there's pictures of that router setup in the previous pages somewhere.

Jun 30 2013 1:34PM

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loganimlach

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one of those would be so easy to build! electric motor, frame, some key stock, some tube and flat plate, a pillow block and you're done sans some heavy duty sandpaper.

and i have absolutely zero experience with any of the software involved with a cnc, but i've done extensive research and i've come to the conclusion it would just take a bunch of experimenting. profiling cores would be easy to learn though, make some fake ones out of osb and tear em up. the biggest reason i want a cnc though is for hollow wooden surfboard construction.

i do agree with you that it takes away from the "hand built" aspect of it, but i justify it by saying "well, power tools are power tools". now if you were building them amish style, that argument would hold weight with me haha.

Jun 30 2013 1:49PM

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Insane

I just use an orbital sander and keep my sidewalls vertical, then normally a coat of epoxy. but I may try to bevel them this summer with my plunge router.

another thought I had- instead of using epoxy cause it's a pain to prepare and use on sidewalls, I may just try that rustoleum neverwet spray. thoughts?

Jun 30 2013 1:51PM

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KyleA

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Insane

Even with a CNC router, I still prefer to cut bases with a template and hand held router and we're actually going back to profiling cores with a planer as well and just cutting them out with our CNC like moment does. Set up time of cutting a base on a CNC will take longer than using a template and it tends to cover the bases with MDF dust which I try to avoid. Unless you have a huge table with a few cutting heads, its not very efficient to profile cores on a CNC table. It is however nice to be able to do other things while a robot is doing some work for you though.

Jun 30 2013 4:33PM

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loganimlach

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i've been going apeshit in sketchup. 3 designs finished, another 3 on deck, all the profiles with 2 4x8 sheets. i guess now all i need to do is build a press..... dangit

Jul 4 2013 3:00PM

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Insane

Or use vacuum and get started right away :P

Jul 4 2013 3:07PM

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Crazy Fool

They just need a base grind and a mount!

Full specs for this set of Playpus:
126/97/123 @ 172.
2/9.5/2 core
3 layers 22oz triax. One top, one bottom, one 20" strip in the binding area.
3/4" core blocks with a layout like: Maple, Aspen, Aspen, Maple, Aspen, Aspen, Maple.

Pics:

Notes:

-Soft flex and core profile was dialed opposed to first pair.
-VDS and Labels aren't lined up.
-Four air bubbles trapped in edge teeth, potentially a spot to propagate a delamination.
-Some epoxy leaked on to the base, fixable with a base grind, but an issue nonetheless.
-Even with no wrinkles in the packing tape, the tape's overlapped cause topsheet depressions.
-Rocker and camber profile looks pretty dialed.
-Refined tip and tail shape on template translated into a higher quality final tip and tail shape.
-Using only two alignment pegs per ski makes for an easier layup opposed to the three used in the first pair.
-Still using too much epoxy in a layup.

Pretty stoked on them. Unhappy with a few things, but I'm going to try to make a second set here soon in an attempt to work out some of those issues. Then I'm going to be ordering materials for my next 5 pairs of skis, and while I'm waiting I'm going to make a few adjustments to the press to set it up for a 185 length ski. Then I'll probably build some more templates in that time to. Probably for some 110+ waisted skis.

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And to anyone looking closely at the labels. Aha, the name on them is 'No Coast Concepts'. Just a name to run under that the locals can associate with. I chose the name because I wanted a coasty/beachy feel to it. I like that vibe. Ironically I live in the dead center of Canada, right between the East and the West. So No Coast it was. And no, I'm not looking to sell a damn ski under the name. Like I said it's just for people to associated to, for me to build rep on, etc...

A little side note regarding the name and logo. It took me months and months of thinking up suitable and pleasing name. Then to even draw some text... Took forever to get something I liked. Something like 20 different text logos alone... Props to marketing and media guys out there like Trevor Woods and Gavin Rudy. How they can create some aesthetically pleasing logos, names, texts, it's all beyond me, and I wish I had that talent. I'm satisfied with what I finally got though, and plan to build on it!

I'll have a few other skiing related projects being released under that name to hopefully. None of them skis either. Just a bunch of 'ghetto products' much like my plastic conduit ski poles or plastic conduit snow rake if you haven't seen either of them:

https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/723093/
https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/733678/

See what kind of things we can make, innovate, and create on a budget!

Thanks again for all the stoke and support guys. Loving it. Glad to see you guys are getting after it to. I swear that one of us is going to come up with a banger idea, have it go to industry, and have it be a mainstream ski technology one day. Calling it now!

Jul 4 2013 10:54PM

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