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Official Ski Pressing/Shaping/Building/Constructing Thread
All of us have thought about building your own shit at one time or another, but how many of you actually have? This thread will be dedicated to those who actually build your own gear from scratch, surely there are some of you on NS. Now I can't contribute to this thread much because I've never built anything and I only have a small amount of time working with fiberglass, but would sure love to see some info from you dudes who actually do, whether you build in your basement, or for a living. So if you can legitimately contribute please do.
DrZoidbergDo you guys know the pvc pipe sealing method?
You just roll the end of the bag around a pvc pipe. Maybe that'll help?
I don't vac bag skis, but I've reused my sealing tape. I had this piece of waxy paper stuff that I put over the tape while the bag was open, to prevent the tape from being contaminated during loading or when it's not being used. Then you pull that off as you seal it and put it somewhere clean, like in a plastic bag.
The PVC clamp seems like a hassle when trying to seal quickly and I'm assuming it only works on a sleeve as I don't know how you would do a corner. I've gotten 3 presses out of the same tape, the third was a little iffy but with some weight on the bag over the tape at the bad spots I was still able to pull 25 inhg. I just lightly lay the bag back over the tape to protect it. I got lucky though, sometimes the tape is unruly and likes to stick to the bag more than the aluminum.
Currently for my core design I have a tongue of wood which goes up into the tip and tail into a cut out section of the tip spacer. The problem I have with this is cutting the shapes to match isnt easy and with laying up it complicates alignment of the core and the tipspacers, to the point where my last pair ended up with the tip spacer and core/sidewalls overlapping at one point (which in turn caused me to split my veneer topsheet in the overlap area) .
In your opinions am i wasting my time getting the cores to have this tongue for a minimal improvement of the flex in the tip and tails? Or is it beneficial for a superior flexing ski all way from nose to tail?
Removing the tongue would reduce my currently expensive machining bill of my cores. reduce the complexity of cutting the tip spacers (by jig saw) and allow me to buy shorter sections of core saving me money further and would hopefully remove complications in lay-up.
Do these savings and lay-up benefit outweigh the natural flex of the ski due to the wood stretching further tip to tail?
(If you dont quite get what i mean with the tongue of wood stretching into the tip and tail i can post photos if need be.)
Currently for my core design I have a tongue of wood which goes up into the tip and tail into a cut out section of the tip spacer. The problem I have with this is cutting the shapes to match isnt easy and with laying up it complicates alignment of the core and the tipspacers, to the point where my last pair ended up with the tip spacer and core/sidewalls overlapping at one point (which in turn caused me to split my veneer topsheet in the overlap area) .
In your opinions am i wasting my time getting the cores to have this tongue for a minimal improvement of the flex in the tip and tails? Or is it beneficial for a superior flexing ski all way from nose to tail?
Removing the tongue would reduce my currently expensive machining bill of my cores. reduce the complexity of cutting the tip spacers (by jig saw) and allow me to buy shorter sections of core saving me money further and would hopefully remove complications in lay-up.
Do these savings and lay-up benefit outweigh the natural flex of the ski due to the wood stretching further tip to tail?
(If you dont quite get what i mean with the tongue of wood stretching into the tip and tail i can post photos if need be.)
A core tongue into the tip and tail is not so much for a "smooth" flex but rather to reduce the stress concentration at the core / tip fill junction and to reduce weight as the core is most likely less dense than whatever tip fill material you are using. You won't really notice a difference if you go with a straight line junction other than a few grams of weight increase, but there is a higher likelihood of that junction being the point of failure should you nose dive into a stump. That being said, I think your issue may lie beyond the shape of the junction. If a contoured piece of tip fill can move around on you during the layup process, a straight piece will probably move around easier. Some staples or porous tape should solve you problem. Doing a simple arc like ninetyfour should simplify your process a bit and reduce the stress concentration.
Ok so I am definitely going to have a redesign of my tip spacer shapes. currently using a long tip spacer ssection which was going to line up with the join in my veneer but i feel like, while it looks goo, it introduces a weakness into the laminate an i right or is it more down to the FG ? Also i@m questioning my finishing. Currently brushing on an off-the (diy-store)- shelf marine varnish but i feel like it scratches and chips too easily, is there a better (possibly cheaper) alternative to the varnish i'm using to seal the veneer and laminate? like Oils, waxes, ultra-hard varnish (i struggled to find an exterior ultra-hard), paint on epoxy? What are others experiences with finishing skis other than finishing with a clear plastic topsheet?
Ok so I am definitely going to have a redesign of my tip spacer shapes. currently using a long tip spacer ssection which was going to line up with the join in my veneer but i feel like, while it looks goo, it introduces a weakness into the laminate an i right or is it more down to the FG ? Also i@m questioning my finishing. Currently brushing on an off-the (diy-store)- shelf marine varnish but i feel like it scratches and chips too easily, is there a better (possibly cheaper) alternative to the varnish i'm using to seal the veneer and laminate? like Oils, waxes, ultra-hard varnish (i struggled to find an exterior ultra-hard), paint on epoxy? What are others experiences with finishing skis other than finishing with a clear plastic topsheet?
razors-chazCurrently brushing on an off-the (diy-store)- shelf marine varnish but i feel like it scratches and chips too easily, is there a better (possibly cheaper) alternative to the varnish i'm using to seal the veneer and laminate? like Oils, waxes, ultra-hard varnish (i struggled to find an exterior ultra-hard), paint on epoxy? What are others experiences with finishing skis other than finishing with a clear plastic topsheet?
From asking around it seems most just go with a UV resistant epoxy, something like entropy's clear epoxy I'm guessing. Brush it on in thin coats, sand every once and a while, and given plenty of coats they will end up being flat. People seem to agree that 3-4 coats is plenty for protection- but keep in mind you are still sanding to get flat so more will be needed.
If you just use varnish it probably won't have the flex properties you want and will end up cracking, that is why people on the ski builders forums recommend spar urethane even though it is less durable.
I've personally taken a different method of using CPES + spar urethane- overkill for a veneer, but probably the best and most expensive option for wood sidewalls. I would have just went for straight epoxy but my cores aren't laminated and water is the devil.
loganimlachRead about how to finish a surfboard, you're going to follow the same exact process.
from what i've seen it it seems to be, tape off edge of area to be epoxied then (jenny) brush coat, then cross brush an thin-ish even lay of epoxy over the skis, not much to it. or am i missing something?
razors-chazfrom what i've seen it it seems to be, tape off edge of area to be epoxied then (jenny) brush coat, then cross brush an thin-ish even lay of epoxy over the skis, not much to it. or am i missing something?
Nope, then just a nice, long drawn out sanding process
razors-chazsurely thats for a sanded finish as opposed to a gloss finish, is there any benefits to many rounds of sanding with increasingly fine sandpaper?
The point is to get it flat, only using a 220 grit will only get a rough gloss result, you need to work up to the 500 realm (don't start there or you will be sanding for a month). Finish with 2000 wet on the final coat then buff to a gloss. You will not get a perfectly flat smooth result without sanding and buffing due to dust and contaminants. For example pro wood workers can get into the 40+ coat range before they are satisfied (not saying you need to do that, but expect to get near 10 before you start feeling happy). I personally did 22 coats. I've been meaning to get around to posting photos, maybe next week.
In terms of a smooth finish, it looks a million times better and god damn it will make panties wet. The only real benefit I could see would be when you're drilling binding holes as you don't want the bit to jump or slide into a low spot, plus your bindings will sit flat relative to each other.
Almost done aircraft maintenance school for the year, then I'll finally be moving back home and giving it full gas. Hoping to have a 'monster' season. Putting in a few big orders soon for materials; I'm going to get so gutted on the exchange and at customs, but it will be worth it. The plan is to keep building clear as well, aha I have 'no time' for actual top sheets. I'm in love with the look on one hand, it is laziness on the other though.
If you guys really get after me I'll try to work the IG hard and get a lot of content up. Aha sometimes I get way too focused to be taking pictures though.
The SLC/PC area is quite the hotbed for brands right now. It's only a matter of time until they go to war on the hill in an Anchorman style battle royal.
The SLC/PC area is quite the hotbed for brands right now. It's only a matter of time until they go to war on the hill in an Anchorman style battle royal.
PoikenzThe point is to get it flat, only using a 220 grit will only get a rough gloss result, you need to work up to the 500 realm (don't start there or you will be sanding for a month). Finish with 2000 wet on the final coat then buff to a gloss. You will not get a perfectly flat smooth result without sanding and buffing due to dust and contaminants. For example pro wood workers can get into the 40+ coat range before they are satisfied (not saying you need to do that, but expect to get near 10 before you start feeling happy). I personally did 22 coats. I've been meaning to get around to posting photos, maybe next week.
In terms of a smooth finish, it looks a million times better and god damn it will make panties wet. The only real benefit I could see would be when you're drilling binding holes as you don't want the bit to jump or slide into a low spot, plus your bindings will sit flat relative to each other.
I guess a reply might be helpful for some here. I did what you said did a painted on epoxy top coat which i went on to sand down with finer and finer papers until it was baby bottom smooth. I thought about going down the buff to gloss route but decided for a surfboard gloss finish instead and spray coated it with PU which seems to have held up pretty well by comparison to varnishing, it basically chips like a plastic topsheet now. which is unsuprising given it basically is plastic over the veneer.
I did this finish on my park model and it has defnitely been my best pair yet, that combined with the new tip spacer shape. Still trying to find a good way to join the tip spacer to the core for lay-up as i didnt rate the micropore tape, it wasnt sticky enough and i didnt want to cover the whole joint in tape.
I have a new problem i want to address now which is edge cracking. as a very small producer its a bit beyond me to get a custom edge step profile for me from the manufacturer especially as i dont have the money or need for 1km of edge. So i have been thinking and looking for solutions for redcing edge cracking. my thoughts have reached a point of do i go for reinforcing the edge with carbon ribons laid over the edge like you do with the vds or what about double layering the vds, will either of these likely help? or do you guys have any other ideas other than getting thicker edges?
razors-chazI guess a reply might be helpful for some here. I did what you said did a painted on epoxy top coat which i went on to sand down with finer and finer papers until it was baby bottom smooth. I thought about going down the buff to gloss route but decided for a surfboard gloss finish instead and spray coated it with PU which seems to have held up pretty well by comparison to varnishing, it basically chips like a plastic topsheet now. which is unsuprising given it basically is plastic over the veneer.
I did this finish on my park model and it has defnitely been my best pair yet, that combined with the new tip spacer shape. Still trying to find a good way to join the tip spacer to the core for lay-up as i didnt rate the micropore tape, it wasnt sticky enough and i didnt want to cover the whole joint in tape.
I have a new problem i want to address now which is edge cracking. as a very small producer its a bit beyond me to get a custom edge step profile for me from the manufacturer especially as i dont have the money or need for 1km of edge. So i have been thinking and looking for solutions for redcing edge cracking. my thoughts have reached a point of do i go for reinforcing the edge with carbon ribons laid over the edge like you do with the vds or what about double layering the vds, will either of these likely help? or do you guys have any other ideas other than getting thicker edges?
Edge cracking is really only reduced by reducing the deflection at impact, which is best done by increasing the web thickness of the edge. One company has done a bunch of testing where they repeatedly hit an edge in one spot and over tons and tons of impacts it won't break, but as soon as you move the impact over an inch, the spot you were hitting will break much like when you reverse the bend on a paper clip.
Ultimately, in doing as small of quantities as we do, your best bet is to hit up a local manufacturer with fat edges. On skibuilders I've seen some guys go in on group buys, so it might work to hit them up too.
loganimlachEdge cracking is really only reduced by reducing the deflection at impact, which is best done by increasing the web thickness of the edge. One company has done a bunch of testing where they repeatedly hit an edge in one spot and over tons and tons of impacts it won't break, but as soon as you move the impact over an inch, the spot you were hitting will break much like when you reverse the bend on a paper clip.
Ultimately, in doing as small of quantities as we do, your best bet is to hit up a local manufacturer with fat edges. On skibuilders I've seen some guys go in on group buys, so it might work to hit them up too.
i'm not sure i understand which are you mean by the web of the edge. based on this image, altering which dimension will make the difference?
loganimlachon your drawing, the 1.8 dimension.web in the structural sense is the vertical depth component.
yeah that makes sense now.
as to what you're saying about clubbing together with other people for a run of more durable edges its difficult given i'm based in the uk, not exactly a hotbed of ski building and definitely not a place where many people are building park skis. i will talk to the short run supplier of edges i have and see if they can help me at all.
thanks for the help btw logan. based on what you've said about reducing the deflection on impact and that the web thickness has the greatest effect on reducing cracking would reinforcing the edge with a layer of carbon over the edge (or the vds) help?
So I'm making some new skis and have bought some b-comp balsa-flax cores to try, has anybody used them before? How is the binding retention? Do I have to machine out slots for harder wood binding screw blocks? Or will extra reinforcing mat on the top side of the core be enough? Thinking of doing an insert mount aswell.
Line machines in ABS in to the bcomps, but they've actually ditched using them in all but one ski. I would for sure do something more than just rely on glass, machining in some hardwood is an interesting concept. Or maybe titanal.
loganimlachLine machines in ABS in to the bcomps, but they've actually ditched using them in all but one ski. I would for sure do something more than just rely on glass, machining in some hardwood is an interesting concept. Or maybe titanal.
the balsa flax cores are super weird. they feel totally alien to hold because theyre so light. theyre also super flexy.
maybe when i'm more prepared for it i will consider some machined in titanal binding plates.
I'm preparing to make my own skis and have some questions the first being could I use oak for my cores (I have some nice oak so it wouldn't cost anything) and what could I use to make vaccine bags out of?
razors-chazSo I'm making some new skis and have bought some b-comp balsa-flax cores to try, has anybody used them before? How is the binding retention? Do I have to machine out slots for harder wood binding screw blocks? Or will extra reinforcing mat on the top side of the core be enough? Thinking of doing an insert mount aswell.
You need some additional reinforcement for sure. Nobody other than DPS thinks balsa can hold a screw. Faction uses a 4ish mm phenolic. A hardwood will work alright but there are better options out there.
KyleAYou need some additional reinforcement for sure. Nobody other than DPS thinks balsa can hold a screw. Faction uses a 4ish mm phenolic. A hardwood will work alright but there are better options out there.
KyleAYou need some additional reinforcement for sure. Nobody other than DPS thinks balsa can hold a screw. Faction uses a 4ish mm phenolic. A hardwood will work alright but there are better options out there.
given the materials i have to hand i think i'm going to use hardwood (ash) for now and then for further pairs I'm thinking about titanal plates milled into the core, along with an extra layer of fibreglass matting in the binding area.
razors-chazgiven the materials i have to hand i think i'm going to use hardwood (ash) for now and then for further pairs I'm thinking about titanal plates milled into the core, along with an extra layer of fibreglass matting in the binding area.
Do you not do a binding mat on your current skis? It's so cheap and is such a good insurance policy to just toss in some 4oz chopped strand glass underfoot. I wouldn't do any skis without it.
loganimlachDo you not do a binding mat on your current skis? It's so cheap and is such a good insurance policy to just toss in some 4oz chopped strand glass underfoot. I wouldn't do any skis without it.
yeah i currently do an extra triax fibreglass layer under-foot but going to combine it with the titanal on my b comp cores if i dont go down the hardwood mounting blocks route.my first pair didnt have the extra layer and i ended up having a pullout of the heel so i decided from then on it was needed
Just read this whole thread, thanks for all the great input everyone, especially NinetyFour and Logan! I have managed to find some scrap rail road track metal and I Beams in my grandpas junkyard from ex projects so hopefully if time and money allow it I;ll be contributing come fall. Until then I have a challenge for NinetyFour and any other members who use clear top sheets.
As I have only ever used fibreglass in the process of building some stand up paddle boards with my dad Ive always been inspired by surf/board construction, One thing Ive always thought would look sick in a ski is a nice Veneer stringer down the middle of the ski, basically since I won't be able to try this for a while I want to see one of you guys do it. You can see what stringers look like in ETT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfghf17P4sk) or if this picture works :
I apologize if this has already been asked about. I searched through the previous pages for a while and could not come across anything.
Am I correct in that most of the tip/tail does not have any wood in it (beyond a certain point) and is mostly made up of spacer material? If so, how far into the tip and tail does the core extend? And is it (and the tip spacer material) usually profiled down to fit together like this:
Or are they butted up to each other at 90 deg angles?
s-handI apologize if this has already been asked about. I searched through the previous pages for a while and could not come across anything.
Am I correct in that most of the tip/tail does not have any wood in it (beyond a certain point) and is mostly made up of spacer material? If so, how far into the tip and tail does the core extend? And is it (and the tip spacer material) usually profiled down to fit together like this:
Or are they butted up to each other at 90 deg angles?
Thanks for the help
Just butted together is fine, to spread that pressure distribution across the joint you can play with the plan view shape of the joint
NinetyFourThe SLC/PC area is quite the hotbed for brands right now. It's only a matter of time until they go to war on the hill in an Anchorman style battle royal.
I have been having a think today about the use of my wood sidewalls and the durability of them on park skis and had an idea. maybe its half baked and there is something obvious i have overlooked. I use the wood sidewalls as i like the look and the workability of them so dont want to switch to plastic. my idea is rather than have full thickness wood sidewalls, epoxy on 2.5mm thick tip spacer plastic to the underside of the sidewall before attaching it to the core so that any edge impact will be transferred to the plastic before the wood. I would do it in a way so that i could attach the end tip spacer pieces aswell to to the sidewalls to avoid the tip spacer ending up on top of the core and get a tighter junction between the tip spacer and core. Obviously this is more pre-layup work than just full wood/plastic. The price seems comparable given i buy cut to size timber on a material volume basis.
do you understand what i'm describing? Would a composite sidewall in this way work to improve sidewall durability from rails/impacts? I have recently got thicker edge and base so given the thicker edge is this unecessary? Would it affect the flex noticably?
razors-chazI have been having a think today about the use of my wood sidewalls and the durability of them on park skis and had an idea. maybe its half baked and there is something obvious i have overlooked. I use the wood sidewalls as i like the look and the workability of them so dont want to switch to plastic. my idea is rather than have full thickness wood sidewalls, epoxy on 2.5mm thick tip spacer plastic to the underside of the sidewall before attaching it to the core so that any edge impact will be transferred to the plastic before the wood. I would do it in a way so that i could attach the end tip spacer pieces aswell to to the sidewalls to avoid the tip spacer ending up on top of the core and get a tighter junction between the tip spacer and core. Obviously this is more pre-layup work than just full wood/plastic. The price seems comparable given i buy cut to size timber on a material volume basis.
do you understand what i'm describing? Would a composite sidewall in this way work to improve sidewall durability from rails/impacts? I have recently got thicker edge and base so given the thicker edge is this unecessary? Would it affect the flex noticably?
Thoughts, builders of newschoolers?
k2/ride snowboards use a composite abs/urethane laminated sidewall that is a similar idea. as far as ability to receive impact is concerned, what leads you to believe uhmw is going to perform better than a wood? a nice sealed hardwood like bamboo, in my opinion, probably has similar impact characteristics prior to the point of fracture. I get that you like the aesthetic of wood, but combining those two seems like it might be a waste of a process. i think what would be really interesting would be to combine a urethane with your wood, or something really soft. that way you're really mixing two dissimilar materials and could lead to something sweet.
loganimlachas far as ability to receive impact is concerned, what leads you to believe uhmw is going to perform better than a wood? a nice sealed hardwood like bamboo, in my opinion, probably has similar impact characteristics prior to the point of fracture. I get that you like the aesthetic of wood, but combining those two seems like it might be a waste of a process. i think what would be really interesting would be to combine a urethane with your wood, or something really soft. that way you're really mixing two dissimilar materials and could lead to something sweet.
I use black american walnut as my sidewall currently and was looking to using the ABS tip spacer based on the ease i could get the material from my current supplier. From my reading on ski builders and personal experience when an impact cracked the edge and split the sidewall a plastic seemed less likely to break up, given i'm not the heaviest nor aggressive park ski user. Having addressed the edge issue the sidewall was my next interest as i have been looking at new ways of finishing and sealing with solidifying oils (teak) etc.
I do agree the combination of a soft material and wood would be interesting, not sure how i would go about that other than a poured urethane. the only other material that comes to mind straight away would be cork.
i think so as long as you ran some peel tests to ensure bonding. urethane sheeting isn't too hard to come by, and you could laminate it with veneers or something.
Effective edge, given modern rocker profiles how is it defined? is it the length of the arc between contact points when weighted? is it the length engaged when weighted? is it the total length of the sidecut arc in 2D/3D? I'm trying to complile useful specs of my skis and couldnt find a defnite clear answer.
razors-chazEffective edge, given modern rocker profiles how is it defined? is it the length of the arc between contact points when weighted? is it the length engaged when weighted? is it the total length of the sidecut arc in 2D/3D? I'm trying to complile useful specs of my skis and couldnt find a defnite clear answer.
I ask the first question because the widest point of my skis (the ends of the sidecut) are not the same as the contact points so the effective edge is more of a "possible effective edge" and in the theoretical situation where you have a wild rocker profile and sidecut going deep into the rocker you could never use the full effective edge making the number useless. so surely the most useful number for consumers would be that of the length of edge between contact points? or is this just a flaw with standard metrics within the industry that they dont accomodate for wild designs?
razors-chaztotal length being chord length or arc length?
I ask the first question because the widest point of my skis (the ends of the sidecut) are not the same as the contact points so the effective edge is more of a "possible effective edge" and in the theoretical situation where you have a wild rocker profile and sidecut going deep into the rocker you could never use the full effective edge making the number useless. so surely the most useful number for consumers would be that of the length of edge between contact points? or is this just a flaw with standard metrics within the industry that they dont accomodate for wild designs?
Chord Length.
And yes, the scenario you describe is fairly standard, and as you state, a slight flaw with the standard metrics of ski design. There will be situations where you won't use the full length of the skis effective edge due to crazy rocker.
The definition doesn't change though, as you need a standard, defined metric to compare skis with. There is no set metric for contract length or effective edge at various points of flex either. Are we talking unweighted, weighted enough to flex the camber out, flexed beyond camber height, etc?
So, generally, specs are given in the ski's natural, unweighted state.
