AVY Level 1’s are overrated; change my mind

Hahahaha

While I agree I didn't learn much in my Avy 1 because I did a crapload of research beforehand and come from a strong skiing background, they definitely have their place.

I work for a shop that hosts courses sanctioned by Aiare, and I'd say about 2/3 of the people that take the course are absolutely clueless. Many are not taking it for the same reason that you and I are taking it - they're taking it with mountaineering goals in mind rather than skiing goals... many see skiing as just a transport to the peak they want to summit, rather than because they want to get deep pow and avoid resorts.

So while a lot of us on here would totally find it overrated as an actual course, myself included to an extent... I'd say for those folks who come up from SF, Seattle, and Portland who see snow at most a dozen times a year but want to summit Rainier, Shasta or Hood or Whitney yet don't even know that snow changes characteristics depending on altitude? Or the guy from Randomville, Easternstate and only has their concept of snow as that of icy hills in new england? Yeah, it's eye opening for them..

But yeah, I must say.. the first day of an AIARE course is basically like watching a red asphault video, but with avalanches instead of car crashes hah.

**This post was edited on Mar 24th 2019 at 3:26:34am

Completely agree with the fact that you DO NOT learn enough in your AST-1 or equivalent, but what you do learn is how much you don’t know and you gain respect for the terrain from that. The backcountry looks about as inviting as a nice fat down tube but nobody got buried alive in the sugarbush park... Honestly just take the course... you or someone you are skiing with will thank you. The AST-1+ course was 100% worth it, I met a lot of cool people that I tour with to this day.

I agree for the most part. The main reason i see taking an avy 1 is that it is often a pre-rec for lvl 2 and above classes

MCwisemanThe AST-1+ course was 100% worth it, I met a lot of cool people that I tour with to this day.

Was gonna say the same thing. Maybe that extra day in the backcountry and the split-up classroom session made the difference, but I learned a shit ton over those 3 days.
And the instructor was definitely into touring for the turns and was all about helping us figure out what lines to ski and the risks involved. The whole time she was like "if we get through these exercises quick then we can go SKIING." And the rest of the crew was on board. Fun times would recommend.

Sure you can learn all the skills some other way but how many people actually will? Not talking weird people that hang on NS but normal peeps. For most noobs the class is really a good way to cover the basics and make sure you are getting off on the right track. Mine was fun and we went touring and cut a cornice and I think everyone learned , even the more experienced folks.

Thoughts on level 2?
Feel like the best learning has been experience.

level 2 is the new hype

RusticlesThoughts on level 2?
Feel like the best learning has been experience.

Agreed. The challenge is having the right group of people in the class to build off of. Best case scenario is you can get your entire crew to take it together.

wrichmondAgreed. The challenge is having the right group of people in the class to build off of. Best case scenario is you can get your entire crew to take it together.

This.
And it applies to any learning experience, be that WFA, or Avy class. Would also recommend taking a class that's local to the area you'll be touring in. It's really worth it just for your teacher's experience with consistent hazards in the area.
There's still a couple of photos of slides from my avy one class that stick in my mind whenever I ski certain peaks.

Depends 90% on the guide. My AIARE 1 was very useful, not because of the curriculum or w/e, but because of the guide telling us practical ways to not get killed.

I come across soooo many people that have "been doing backcountry" for years and yet still hardly know how to do a basic beacon search...

I actually got something from the course. It was the Whitewater ski patrol putting on the course. It helped with motivation for beacon scenario practice. It made me more aware of the potential risks out there; I was an ice coast skier, moving to the powder filled west. I found it was a great awareness course for the morons going out there and being dangerous to everyone else around them. Do I have to remind you 7-8 people die in the Kootenays every year from avalanches? most had no prior mountain experience.

The second good point about avy 1 is the standardization of the information. When someone tell you they have AVY1, it tells me they have the absolute basic knowledge to travel in the back country. I know what they know and I can trust their responsibilities and decision taking on the way up and down.

Its about awareness, not theory. Remember most people can barely get through high school...so you got to dumb it down to these people so everyone can grasp the information.

Just this year, I got to witness a father (50s) and son (16 or so) boot pack an avy prone area, on a high risk day without setting off the transceiver detector. I had to change itinerary so that I was no where near those two morons.

Sorry to miss the call-out; I must have been too deep in a snow hole with my cheese platter. But I did get a good laugh out of it.

Generally, everyone above has outlined the good reasons. The first Level 1 I took scared the hell out of me, and was taught by old school touring science dorks who had 1. tons of experience and 2. very little ability to apply their snow science to how skiing was changing. The second Level 1 was operational focused, for a cat ski operation, and it was a good lap back through, but it again showed me how much I didn't know. I've since taken the old Level 2, and the new Pro 1 Bridge, both from AAI. It's been interesting, informative, and I've come away from all of it a smarter, more humble, better backcountry user.

Teaching a Level 1 last year was an interesting experience. On one hand, I had a silly kind of nervousness which said "what are you doing teaching this stuff? You don't know it THAT well." And on the other, I did know, because Level 1 ain't that advanced. And it went really well teaching it--our students learned, grew in their knowledge and application, and most left feeling like their wishes for the course were fulfilled.

Since it's the entry point to formalized avalanche education, folks come to a Level 1 with such different abilities and expectations. Sometimes it's a person with years of experience who has finally been shamed into it by their partners. More frequently, it's a new group of people who haven't seen much natural snow--this second group is going to struggle some no matter how they do it; those that come in with some knowledge from reading or taking a companion rescue course have a leg up, obviously.

One of the keys for me is that there is so, so much to the avalanche world. People dedicate five decade long careers to the study of snow and how it moves, and there are still huge gaps in what we know about how it behaves. For fucks sake--standardized assessment protocol involves hitting columns of snow with your hand. That's pretty Cro-magnon from a modernity perspective. So the real art of designing and offering a good level one is deciding what to include, maybe more importantly what to leave out, and then how best to fit that into a three day course that can't answer everything, but leaves people with a decent sense of direction and how to not get killed. Add in all the differences in learning style plus the range of risk tolerance plus the variance in experience--it's a tall order.

Perhaps the formalized avalanche education system, as we do it in the states, doesn't emphasize enough the role of continued learning and practice. We say, "I took my Level 1", but if that was two years ago and you haven't practiced companion rescue since, you're probably not going to be fast enough. That's a simple fact. Last year, the cheap, one day companion rescue class that was offered locally had nobody sign up for it. Literally no one. So we probably need to make it a little more like a WFA or WFR license, where it expires and you have to recert it. Or find some other way to make continuing education a more integral part of the process--that could be as simple as hiring a guide for a day and having them critique your systems, analysis, and strategy.

Level 1 is just a starting point in a long, long learning process. Can you get all the same tools and knowledge via hard knocks and youtube? Sure. But since most people can't learn that way, and the consequences for a minor error can be catastrophic, I think there's still a real need for Level 1.

never took avvy 1
they let me clep avvy 2
took a semester long snow science course from the u
that was a much greater bang for the buck in knowledge, field time, and instructor experience and knowledge and class size than avvy 2
x10
but no piece of paper certification
23 years ago when i started there wasnt much avvy edjucation available nor was it a money making enterprise it is today
Most of us learned from mentors and touring partners
Patrol and snow safety were really good to my crew helped us proform beacons and gear shared info let us watch and help do pit work and other stability tests in the sidecountry
i think the current move to split education into rec and pro is a good one
because my wife probably has more back country time and experience in 23 seasons than litature it would be hard for me to want to have her spend that time and money on avvy 1 nor will i ever take it
but you can never practice companion rescue and 1st aid skills enough and i would send her to that class
i wish education was the answer but ive attended to many celebrations of life of friends and coworkers who had better educations and knowledge than i
You cant teach risk tolerances
They dont teach ski cuts, ever changing group dynamics,spatial awareness and varibilities nor the ability to use the knowledge
to change your actions
personally id rather tour with a newbie with strong 1st aid skills or season or 2 of experience
than having paid for a class where they give you a certification without requiring any proof of competency

LiteratureLevel 1 is just a starting point in a long, long learning process. Can you get all the same tools and knowledge via hard knocks and youtube? Sure. But since most people can't learn that way, and the consequences for a minor error can be catastrophic, I think there's still a real need for Level 1.

Extremely well said write-up.

I feel like the biggest thing that stops people from continuing their education is just as you said "i took my level 1" has become the standard bearer for a backcountry go-er, when it should be "I take my yearly or bi-annual avy retest course" or something to that degree.

I feel like the curriculum has to be expanded.. having seen that there's now a recreational level 2 is really good, and the companion rescue course being on the docket is huge.. but maybe there needs to be more of an emphasis by either avalanche education services, or better, the general public for taking these additional courses..

it would be awesome if there was a good amount of in-field level 2 courses with certain focuses... whether that be focusing on backcountry skiing techniques, like how to ascend or transition more efficiently, picking lines etc, or basic snow science stuff, or even just communicating or partner sourcing or whatever else...

there's so much content that doesn't get covered well enough - it's like we've all just taken a 1 year Spanish course and now get sent into Mexico, but since we are somehow getting by unscathed, and there's not enough easy access or community pressure to continue our education, we all just to learn by immersion, and that's not always conducive nor safe.

Pro 2 is $2000 and sold out. If I have pro 1 and don’t work during the winter because I’m a skier, how do I advance professionally? Get an internship with some mountain guides or heli op or weather/avy forecaster group? Please advise

JohnJonszPro 2 is $2000 and sold out. If I have pro 1 and don’t work during the winter because I’m a skier, how do I advance professionally? Get an internship with some mountain guides or heli op or weather/avy forecaster group? Please advise

I guess I'm curious why do you want to "advance professionally" if you don't work in the winter?

Is that just to develop you own skills?
If so maybe try and get a crew together and approach a school/guide service and say "hey we have a whole group that would like to take x course, Can you provide it with this group on this date?".

Or just sharpen the skills you have by going out more and meeting better backcountry skiers.

I would say if you really want work on becoming professional avalanche specialist in the ski industry, working for a resort with a strong side country component/avalanche mitigation program is the way to go I'd say.

Unless you have a guide/ helo/ avy forcast friend that can vouch you for a job.

How many people are looking to use overpriced fairly non-standardized education as an opportunity to give themselves a sense of moral superiority and opportunity to ignore their lack of experience?

How is many people looking to take an advanced snow science / avalanche course can articulate their desired learning outcomes? Or is it just to be ‘Level X’ because it’s more?

Basically, the way I look at it now is: If my partner says they've got "X" level of avy education it guarantees that someone has made them pull out their beacon and other gear and faff around with it a bit. So they probably have at least some vague concept of what they'd need to do in a rescue. That's better than nothing, but doesn't mean much. So yeah, go get your avy one, because unless you're lucky with your touring partners, that's the best way to learn the very basics. But from there, I really just want to ski with people that have read the report, have similar risk tolerances to myself and are fast at using their gear.

I really don't care that you have your level three if you can't get your damn shovel out of your pack when shit hits the fan.