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Charger skis without 5 point sidecut......Hojis

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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
I got some armada norwalks because i want a stiffer charger ski with nose rocker but no tail rocker

unfortunately i hate them, and i finally figured out that it's the same reason i hated the JJs (beyond the tail rocker): the 5 point sidecut. i like to drive my tips and track straight lines, and these don't want to do that at all

so what are some similar ish skis that don't have 5 point sidecut? i also want something light ish because ill be mounting them with tyrolia adrenalins like i did the norwalks to skin with sometimes. are the Hojis a good charger ski?

devastators look great but what is reflect tech? i like a ski that busts through crud

any answers or other suggestions would be great. stiffish charger, nose rocker, maybe some camber, no tail rocker, no 5 point sidecut, preferably light ish

thanks
Apr 7 2015 9:33PM
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Pmoore
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 1,246
From my experience I believe you just need a longer sidecut, the fact that it has 5 point sidecut doesnt change much with driving tips and tracking straight lines, it is mainly just the turn radius. Both JJ's and Norwalks have medium length sidecuts (turn radius) by my standards. Just something to think about.
Apr 7 2015 9:42PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
Sounds like you might like Volkl gotamas or Blizzard Cochise. I hated the JJ's and skis like them for the same reason you do, and settled on gotamas for my all mountain charging ski.

Maybe move up to the katana or shiro if you want more pow capability.
Apr 7 2015 10:04PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
PmooreFrom my experience I believe you just need a longer sidecut, the fact that it has 5 point sidecut doesnt change much with driving tips and tracking straight lines, it is mainly just the turn radius. Both JJ's and Norwalks have medium length sidecuts (turn radius) by my standards. Just something to think about.


hm well i think i considered that, but i don't have much problem with skis with smaller turn radii. i definitely don't like them short but i don't think that is to blame for my distaste for these skis. 5 point sidecut seems to be the only feature of this ski that i havent had on other skis that i had no problem with. ive skied skis with rocker or no rocker on both ends, different turn radii, different lengths, different shapes, and the norwalk and JJ are the only ones i had the goofy feeling on..... idk


CyanicenineSounds like you might like Volkl gotamas or Blizzard Cochise. I hated the JJ's and skis like them for the same reason you do, and settled on gotamas for my all mountain charging ski.

Maybe move up to the katana or shiro if you want more pow capability.


hm well you are definitely reading me right because my last charger skis were katanas and i adored them. im not using them now because i can't mount mine again (too many holes), theyre a tiny bit heavy i think to have as my part time touring ski, they only sell the expensive carbon version now (though obv i could find some used or older ones), and i wouldn't mind a little more tail length and the tiniest bit of jibbiness added in......so i think your recommendation of the gotama might be a great one...
Apr 8 2015 12:04AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
CyanicenineSounds like you might like Volkl gotamas or Blizzard Cochise. I hated the JJ's and skis like them for the same reason you do, and settled on gotamas for my all mountain charging ski.

Maybe move up to the katana or shiro if you want more pow capability.


also, i believe my katanas are either pretty much flat or they have the most subtle rockers ever. gotama says full rocker, is it super subtle? as i said i don't like the washy feeling of tail rocker usually, and prefer my nose rocker to be relatively mild as well

i hear great things about the cochise as well. i can look it up but how's the weight? is the twin tip at least a little raised? i like to have that ideally, if only for saving botched landings that i save by going switch for a second :D
Apr 8 2015 12:11AM
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stinky_cheese
Posts: 1215 - Karma: 5,118
devastator definitely blasts through crud, one of the best charging skis i've ever skied on, they're very stable and stiff.
Apr 8 2015 12:22AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Obviously biased, but Wren 112?
Apr 8 2015 12:55AM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
The rocker profile on the current Gotama is the same as the Katana. It is extremely subtle, practically flat, makes for a really predictable and stable ride when charging through chop. If weight and having a twin tip is important to you then it sounds like the right ski.
Apr 8 2015 1:11AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
You want Billy Goats.
You are welcome.
Apr 8 2015 1:50AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Light or chargy. Pick one.
Apr 8 2015 3:16AM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
Faction Ten if you want a little narrower, Thirteen if you want fatter.
Apr 8 2015 9:31AM
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haggis_hunter
Posts: 399 - Karma: 207
BoaxLight or chargy. Pick one.


This.

It depends on your weight as well. I'm 95kg without gear on so most things this side of a Katana etc are pretty soft for me.
Apr 8 2015 10:38AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
stinky_petedevastator definitely blasts through crud, one of the best charging skis i've ever skied on, they're very stable and stiff.

yeah im liking the look of the devastators a lot, though i can't help but wonder if i should go for the hojis instead given that theyre a little bigger yet lighter..?

RudyGarmischObviously biased, but Wren 112?


those look great but unfortunately i think i gotta stick to bigger brands simply because i need to find a deal on these... i just bought an entire setup that i love except for the skis, which i dislike so much im selling after my first trip. so this needs to be on a tight budget

cobra_commanderYou want Billy Goats.
You are welcome.
same as above, plus don't the billy goats have some non traditional sidecut profile? like reverse in the front and normal in the back or something? after this debacle im sticking to what i know until i can demo extensively

CyanicenineThe rocker profile on the current Gotama is the same as the Katana. It is extremely subtle, practically flat, makes for a really predictable and stable ride when charging through chop. If weight and having a twin tip is important to you then it sounds like the right ski.


okay that sounds perfect. im really leaning towards the gotamas right now, a slightly smaller slightly jibbier katana? sounds like a wet dream to me

BoaxLight or chargy. Pick one.


haha yeah yeah i know but i only added the "light ISH" part because these will be part time skinning skis. i have no problems with heavy skis beyond that at all. so here im looking for at least a medium haha

Caucasian_AsianFaction Ten if you want a little narrower, Thirteen if you want fatter.

thanks for the suggestion and i would love to try out some factions but as i said above i think i need to stick to bigger brands for cost's sake. in a perfect world id grab some 13s or candide 3.0s at retail and be done with it but especially now that im ditching brand new skis i gotta be smart about the cost. maybe one day i won't have to (when im too old and washed up to put my skis to good use :D)
Apr 8 2015 11:04AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
thank you to everyone for all the help by the way, much appreciated
Apr 8 2015 11:07AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
Either Worth Magics or ON3P Kartels. Both can lay an edge right the fuck down and both will let you drive the tips into literally anything and not give a single fuck. Super playful but still damp. The tails on both are pretty much along for the ride but the maneuverability and stability in the both of them are uncanny. Seriously. They don't act like they have a square tail by any means but I hate 5 point skis. They ski like rollerblades.

Those are my votes anyways.
Apr 8 2015 11:10AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
Huck_NorrisI hate 5 point skis. They ski like rollerblades.


haha yep exactly. wish i had known this beforehand. i thought the roller bladey feel of the JJs was because of the short-for-its-length length (if you get what im saying) and the tail rocker so i got tail rocker-less norwalks in a 189 (9 cms above my head) and they still felt like rollerblades that refused to make a driving turn :(

ya live ya learn i guess
Apr 8 2015 11:20AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
Huck_NorrisI hate 5 point skis. They ski like rollerblades.


My 193 Bodacious, 191 Billy Goats, and 193 Cease and Desist would argue against your argument.

JJs, Sin/Soul/Super7s, Apostles/NorthShore all strengthen your position though.
Apr 8 2015 11:50AM
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Pmoore
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 1,246
BoaxLight or chargy. Pick one.



I respectfully disagree. Balsa Core and Chargy is not an option, however a stiff carbon ski with a maple poplar core when made correctly is still chargy. Come try the Kitten Factory Chairman someday.
Apr 8 2015 12:19PM
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TheWeaz
Posts: 803 - Karma: 1,903
one of the problems may also be the construction of armadas. The half cap/sidewall makes the tips way to light for proper charging, they get deflected to easy. A full sidewall ski will charge way better even if it is a five point/early taper design, as shown with the ON3Ps and the faction chapter.
Apr 8 2015 12:37PM
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Session
Posts: 5318 - Karma: 21,393
It's not that 5 points cant charge, it's just that the only 5 points you have been on are bitchmade. Billygoat is a different animal.
Apr 8 2015 1:06PM
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VD.
Posts: 4054 - Karma: 4,564
Titsandwich11haha yeah yeah i know but i only added the "light ISH" part because these will be part time skinning skis. i have no problems with heavy skis beyond that at all. so here im looking for at least a medium haha


http://www.volkl.com/skis/v-werks/v-werks/v-werks-katana.html
Apr 8 2015 1:19PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
SessionIt's not that 5 points cant charge, it's just that the only 5 points you have been on are bitchmade. Billygoat is a different animal.


yeah i mean that might be true, but really im an idiot for trying to fix something that isnt broken. some day i'll get to extensively demo every ski i want but for now ill stick with what i know works with the technique of my turns

VD.http://www.volkl.com/skis/v-werks/v-werks/v-werks-katana.html


haha don't i wish. as said above, too expensive. if i had an extra grand layin around id pick those things up in a heartbeat, no question about it
Apr 8 2015 1:49PM
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VD.
Posts: 4054 - Karma: 4,564
Titsandwich11haha don't i wish. as said above, too expensive. if i had an extra grand layin around id pick those things up in a heartbeat, no question about it


http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Volkl-V-Werks-Katana-Skis-2015-/331500834231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4d2efd4db7
Apr 8 2015 2:11PM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
Titsandwich11thanks for the suggestion and i would love to try out some factions but as i said above i think i need to stick to bigger brands for cost's sake. in a perfect world id grab some 13s or candide 3.0s at retail and be done with it but especially now that im ditching brand new skis i gotta be smart about the cost. maybe one day i won't have to (when im too old and washed up to put my skis to good use :D)


If you were going to look at Faction, I would look at the 3.Zero instead of the CT3.0 if you want a chargy ski. And of course, the Thirteen. I've had both of them, and they're both beastly.
Apr 8 2015 2:19PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
VD.http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Volkl-V-Werks-Katana-Skis-2015-/331500834231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4d2efd4db7

thanks again, but while that's a great price, it's unfortunately way out of my budget right now. cash is low in the first place cause i work at a science lab, plus i just bought an entire new setup, so im definitely going to be eating some money right now just by switching it up again

Caucasian_AsianIf you were going to look at Faction, I would look at the 3.Zero instead of the CT3.0 if you want a chargy ski. And of course, the Thirteen. I've had both of them, and they're both beastly.


thanks for the suggestions man. next time i buy skis budget will be less of an issue and ill def keep that in mind
Apr 8 2015 3:14PM
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stinky_cheese
Posts: 1215 - Karma: 5,118
yeah hojis are a bit beefier and lighter, but the devastators are a lot better for tricks and crap because of the twin tip, i dunno if you're into that sorta thing though
Apr 8 2015 3:27PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
I was between the HOJIs and the DEVs, went with the hojis after many demo days due to the stiffer flex, better size fit for me, and I like the longer turning radius. I couldnt be happier. I put about 200 days on them over 2 seasons and they are now destroyed, but I feel like for the hell I put them through, they held up very well!

I also have had the cochises, which were fun, but not very lively and had a very short tail. The hojis can charge, jib, spin, bust crud and float, all in the same day!

I hate the JJs/JJ2.0s bc of the insanely short turning radius and the weakness of the nose and tails if thats anything for you to note.

Let me know if I can do any comparisons for you!
Apr 8 2015 7:16PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Wren 112's are $549 on the ON3P store right now.
Apr 8 2015 7:25PM
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shin-bang
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 6,992
kitten factory chairman. boom.
Apr 8 2015 11:11PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
stinky_peteyeah hojis are a bit beefier and lighter, but the devastators are a lot better for tricks and crap because of the twin tip, i dunno if you're into that sorta thing though


japanadaI was between the HOJIs and the DEVs, went with the hojis after many demo days due to the stiffer flex, better size fit for me, and I like the longer turning radius. I couldnt be happier. I put about 200 days on them over 2 seasons and they are now destroyed, but I feel like for the hell I put them through, they held up very well!

I also have had the cochises, which were fun, but not very lively and had a very short tail. The hojis can charge, jib, spin, bust crud and float, all in the same day!

I hate the JJs/JJ2.0s bc of the insanely short turning radius and the weakness of the nose and tails if thats anything for you to note.

Let me know if I can do any comparisons for you!


okay well im feeling really into the gotamas but hojis and devastators are a close second. all 3 sound amazing. i think the deciding factor will be price. the hojis being a decent bit wider and somehow lighter is interesting...though i guess everything is a compromise, so the added weight on the devs might also mean they crud bust a little better

thanks a lot for the info

RudyGarmischWren 112's are $549 on the ON3P store right now.


shin-bangkitten factory chairman. boom.


yeah unfortunately i have a super super low budget this time around. thanks for the suggestions though you two ^ and ^^
Apr 9 2015 10:26AM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
cobra_commanderMy 193 Bodacious, 191 Billy Goats, and 193 Cease and Desist would argue against your argument.

JJs, Sin/Soul/Super7s, Apostles/NorthShore all strengthen your position though.




In general anyways. There will always be outliers in any segment, but generally 5 pointers will be more squirrely at speed for their length. I've skied several gens of the BGs and the new ones are insanely good- but far from the norm when it comes to the meat of the 5-point market like the JJs/S7s etc.


ON3Ps are like cheating more and more every generation though haha, given the elliptical rocker & sidecut or RES's smoothness and uncanny transitions they defy their dimensions in so many ways. I have been increasingly impressed over the years with their skis and that's saying a lot because I was super impressed to begin with.
Apr 9 2015 12:00PM
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Goku
Posts: 8119 - Karma: 4,221
Nordica Helldorado.
Absolutely rip
Apr 9 2015 12:41PM
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Vtsnowski
Posts: 3532 - Karma: 1,152
GokuNordica Helldorado.
Absolutely rip


One of the best skis I have ever been on. Such a stable ski at high speeds and it is good all over the hill.
Apr 9 2015 7:19PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
PmooreI respectfully disagree. Balsa Core and Chargy is not an option, however a stiff carbon ski with a maple poplar core when made correctly is still chargy. Come try the Kitten Factory Chairman someday.


I have yet to ski a carbon ski that deals with variable snow well. Too light to cut through stuff and not enough dampening. If you're only skiing good snow then sure go carbon.

A shop friend who skis similarly to me says that BD's new carbon Aspect and Megawatt are the first skis he's been on which deal with variable snow reasonably well so I might try his Aspects this week.
Apr 10 2015 12:25PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
BoaxI have yet to ski a carbon ski that deals with variable snow well.


Does anyone actually make a fully carbon ski? All the 'carbon' skis I know of still revolve around a wood/foam core. Just an FYI.

There are many ways in the world to use 'carbon fiber' to enhance a ski. You can defiantly make a ski damp and powerful with it. Try a carbon katana.
Apr 10 2015 12:55PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
cobra_commanderDoes anyone actually make a fully carbon ski? All the 'carbon' skis I know of still revolve around a wood/foam core. Just an FYI.


Yes, "carbon skis" can be taken to mean wood core with carbon laminates most of the time, I know.

Goode made full carbon skis, probably others too.
Apr 10 2015 1:09PM
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Pmoore
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 1,246
BoaxYes, "carbon skis" can be taken to mean wood core with carbon laminates most of the time, I know.

Goode made full carbon skis, probably others too.



You need a core. Full carbon would not work, would end up being unreasonably heavy and not functional.

No one has ever made a carbon ski without a core.
Apr 10 2015 1:33PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
PmooreYou need a core. Full carbon would not work, would end up being unreasonably heavy and not functional.

No one has ever made a carbon ski without a core.


Meh, you really don't need one. But wood does have really nice properties for making beams (aka skis) out of. Its why we use it.

If we really wanted to chase the weight game, it would be very possible to build a ski out of carbon using a wrapping shell with an interior frame (think airplane wing). It would be expensive as fuck to produce however.
Apr 10 2015 1:42PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
PmooreYou need a core. Full carbon would not work, would end up being unreasonably heavy and not functional.

No one has ever made a carbon ski without a core.


Goode. You had me doubting myself but see page 4 here: http://www.goode.com/images/Snow%20Ski%20Tech%20Manual%20081117.pdf .

They were some sort of honeycomb structure, maybe some foam in there just as filler. I can't imagine they would ski nice anyway. I drilled two pairs for a rep in my first month of shop work, after my boss told me that they cost $2000 retail (in 2005). My hands were sweating the entire time.
Apr 10 2015 1:43PM
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Pmoore
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 1,246
cobra_commanderMeh, you really don't need one. But wood does have really nice properties for making beams (aka skis) out of. Its why we use it.

If we really wanted to chase the weight game, it would be very possible to build a ski out of carbon using a wrapping shell with an interior frame (think airplane wing). It would be expensive as fuck to produce however.



You just described a core to me. I didn't say it had to be wood or foam.

you could honeycomb carbon as a core but that sucks
Apr 10 2015 2:15PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
OK.
Apr 10 2015 3:03PM
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TheWakes.
Posts: 685 - Karma: 235
DEVASTATOR- reflect tech means the sidecut radius matches the camber radius. the devastators are fully rocketed. but when u tip them on edge, you get full tip to tail contact. they are very stable at all speeds and are very good in variable snow.
Apr 11 2015 12:29AM
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haggis_hunter
Posts: 399 - Karma: 207
cobra_commanderDoes anyone actually make a fully carbon ski? All the 'carbon' skis I know of still revolve around a wood/foam core. Just an FYI.

There are many ways in the world to use 'carbon fiber' to enhance a ski. You can defiantly make a ski damp and powerful with it. Try a carbon katana.


I would suspect theres more going in a carbon Katana than you know about. Its wooden binding mounting plate wrapped in carbon. Theres also kevlar and I would suspect titanium in the mix as well. The V-Werks cores are wrapped in carbon in a similar way to the tough box which is dynamically different from 99% of the other carbon skis out there. They tend to only use carbon in the layup.

Having actually built a pair of skis with carbon in the lay up I can say its not going to be Katana V-Werks rivalling. Its there as a function to work with the core not like the V-Werks where it becomes part of the core.
Apr 11 2015 6:21AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
LamafamaI would suspect theres more going in a carbon Katana than you know about. Its wooden binding mounting plate wrapped in carbon. Theres also kevlar and I would suspect titanium in the mix as well. The V-Werks cores are wrapped in carbon in a similar way to the tough box which is dynamically different from 99% of the other carbon skis out there. They tend to only use carbon in the layup.

Having actually built a pair of skis with carbon in the lay up I can say its not going to be Katana V-Werks rivalling. Its there as a function to work with the core not like the V-Werks where it becomes part of the core.


I would suspect that there is very little going on in a carbon Katana that I don't know about... It does have an edge to edge wood core FYI. Just not a very thick one.
Apr 12 2015 3:04PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
TheWakes.DEVASTATOR- reflect tech means the sidecut radius matches the camber radius. the devastators are fully rocketed. but when u tip them on edge, you get full tip to tail contact. they are very stable at all speeds and are very good in variable snow.


thanks for the answer about that man!
Apr 13 2015 11:30AM
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270on420out
Posts: 7494 - Karma: 50,831
Volkl mantras
Apr 13 2015 12:40PM
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sammy_JJ
Posts: 257 - Karma: 115
I would recommend the 2015/16 Blizzard Cochise. I have put them through hell and back over two days of testing. Since they are redesigned for the next season they have a very similar profile to the Hojis. Biggest difference is they have the durability and engineering that comes with Blizzard skis. I am not saying 4FRNT skis are not durable.

Besides the new profile blizzard has also added Carbon fibre tip and tail which decrease the weight and swing weight of the ski all with out sacrificing stiffness.

I have rode the 2014/15 and the 2015/16 Mantra and they are both durable skis that do exactly what they are supposed but nothing special or memorable.

I have ordered the 2015/16 Cochise as they are the best directional charging ski I have rode. Extremely stable, still quick and titchy when you need to change things up.

Get what ever you want just wanted to give you something to think about.
Apr 13 2015 2:44PM
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TheWakes.
Posts: 685 - Karma: 235
Titsandwich11thanks for the answer about that man!


you're welcome. and i meant *fully rockered* in my previous post. damn autocorrect.

but ya of all the skis talked about, i would get devastators. the full rocker is good in so many conditions. i am 5'9" 140lb and will be on a 174 devastator next year. i also rode the 184 and liked it as an all mountain ski, but decided it would be too big for park for someone my size. hope this helps with sizing.
Apr 13 2015 9:55PM
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sammy_JJ
Posts: 257 - Karma: 115
I forgot to mention in my prior post that my skiing style is very similar to you as i like to press forward on my skis and more or less go straight down pretty much anything.
The same as you i don't like the JJs because they don't stand up well and give enough push back when i try to press.

The 2015/16 Blizzard cochise definitely did like it when i pressed forward into them.
Apr 13 2015 10:21PM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
sammy_JJI forgot to mention in my prior post that my skiing style is very similar to you as i like to press forward on my skis and more or less go straight down pretty much anything.
The same as you i don't like the JJs because they don't stand up well and give enough push back when i try to press.

The 2015/16 Blizzard cochise definitely did like it when i pressed forward into them.


The cochise isnt really a jibby ski tho. No nearly as centermounted as the HOJIs, and they have very short tails. I got more tip deflection on my cochises than I ever got on my HOJIs. That said, I did ski the older fully rockered versions and have yet to ever get on the new ones with rocker + camber
Apr 13 2015 10:30PM
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sammy_JJ
Posts: 257 - Karma: 115
japanadaThe cochise isnt really a jibby ski tho. No nearly as centermounted as the HOJIs, and they have very short tails. I got more tip deflection on my cochises than I ever got on my HOJIs. That said, I did ski the older fully rockered versions and have yet to ever get on the new ones with rocker + camber


you are right the new cochise are not a jibby ski and the tails are a bit shorter in comparison to the Hojis but they do have a nice pop/spring to them even in softer deeper snow. They were designed to be a head first work horse and that is exactly what they do.

At the end of the day just have to pick the ski that matches your riding style and interest the most. There are hundreds of different skis out there because everyone rides slightly different
Apr 13 2015 10:57PM
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