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Brainstorm: how to create a hypothetical park ski that doesn't lose its edge

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03gade
Posts: 856 - Karma: 3,263
There has to be a way to solve this problem. I love the whole "all mountain park ski" category, because after a day or 2 on rails, there is no such thing. Once your edges are gone you will not be having fun on the rest of the mountain.

Even full on park skis come sharpened out of the box just to get destroyed. Do they even need an edge in a traditional sense? Is there a way to do it differently?

I just think its weird that there is a somewhat vestigial part of my park ski that maybe shouldn't be there at all.
Mar 17 2015 6:03PM
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Hoodliving
Posts: 1033 - Karma: 1,873
End the edges a foot short of bindings. Connect the edges underfoot to the other sides edges so you wont get blowouts maybe?
Mar 17 2015 6:13PM
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steeze4days
Posts: 358 - Karma: 1,948
Interesting thought, although i don't think getting rid of an edge completely is a viable solution i do believe there must be a better way to do it, i myself am not sure of how to solve this problem and I'm sure many before us have also tried, first things that come to my mind though are:

Edge thickness: surely a thicker edge would be more durable and harder to crack/ rip out.

Edge Material: Our edges are made treated steel/stainless steel, maybe we need to develop a better material or alloy to hold up to the demands we now put upon our beloved park skis.

Its clear that money also has a big factor in this and a lot of ski manufacturers probably just don't really care that much and have the mindset of "It's always been done like this" and its reasonably cheap to make them this way, rather than trying to develop the edge and improve it to be more tough.

Hopefully someone involved in the ski manufacturing industry will think of something, although i have no doubt this has been a topic which has been attempted to be solved before.

Would be interesting to see what someone so involved and experienced in the ski Manufacturing industry like JLev thinks of this.
Mar 17 2015 6:13PM
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veng_m
Posts: 1267 - Karma: 2,720
a detuned in the tip/tail/underfoot edge made out of a synthetic material like a tougher plastic that would dampen some impacts
Mar 17 2015 6:27PM
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03gade
Posts: 856 - Karma: 3,263
mantoastEnd the edges a foot short of bindings. Connect the edges underfoot to the other sides edges so you wont get blowouts maybe?


Salomon does this on the nfx, but the problem is the edges are still going to dull
Mar 17 2015 6:40PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
dull edges not possible.

but I was thinking of a ski that potentially the edge layer went through the entire ski, not like one flat layer but with lines connecting one side to the either and it went between the core.
Mar 17 2015 6:58PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
just make the base 1 solid piece of metal, then there are no edges to pull out
Mar 17 2015 7:13PM
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Casey
Posts: 7790 - Karma: 23,522
When it comes to steel, you either get strong (brittle) or flexible (dulls easily). So you could end edge cracking forever by altering the alloy, but they would dull immediately. Or you could get edges that never dull but they would crack as soon as the ski flexed.

I think people will eventually use 3d printers to make their own skis out of advanced composites once the price drops enough.
Mar 17 2015 7:20PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
cornholiojust make the base 1 solid piece of metal, then there are no edges to pull out


fuck just the base, all of it.


I think it would be cool if edges underfoot were separate from the rest of the edge and screwed in, and could be replaced as they broke.
Mar 17 2015 7:20PM
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John18_6
Posts: 7313 - Karma: 49,160
aliens make their skis out of carbon nanotubes
Mar 17 2015 7:32PM
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dispatchQ_main
Posts: 2619 - Karma: 629
accidentally microwave them too long and they will never come off
Mar 17 2015 7:44PM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
I'm confused. Are you looking for a ski that has edges that wont blow out after repeated abuse, or a ski with edges that always maintain their sharpness? Or both?

If you're looking for the former, I've definitely put some though into it:

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/756906/Think-Session--Ski-Edges-

As far as an edge that can be park ridden but maintains it's sharpness goes, that's really just something that's not going to happen. Even if the edges could be put to rails repeatedly and stay sharp, they're sharp so you're probably going to hook and catch on a lot of jibs which isn't much fun.

Personally I do a generous detune that runs the length of the binding area, then leave the rest of my edges sharp. It's definitely not idea for skiing in icy conditions, but it's really not that bad.
Mar 17 2015 7:52PM
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CHORIZO
Posts: 2003 - Karma: 10,039
Is there such a thing as layered edges? Like two edges with one slightly higher and wider than the one under it. This way youll have a dull underfoot so you dont catch rails and you can carve with the upper one.
Mar 17 2015 11:29PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
ANUSTARTIs there such a thing as layered edges? Like two edges with one slightly higher and wider than the one under it. This way youll have a dull underfoot so you dont catch rails and you can carve with the upper one.


That's an interesting idea. But I feel like that edge would easily get destroyed and soon be reduced to the width of the lower edge. Plus if anything hit it from below it'd probably be done for. It'd get fucked up on rails quickly.

Reminds me of step down rails in a surfboard, where the rails (edges) are drastically thinner than the center of the board and there's a pretty steep step between the two. It keeps volume in the middle but gives you a thin, sensitive rail.

As for always sharp edges... Diamond? Corundum?

Does having sharp edges everywhere but underfoot actually make a difference?
Mar 17 2015 11:56PM
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gotti
Posts: 4269 - Karma: 4,548
NinetyFourI'm confused. Are you looking for a ski that has edges that wont blow out after repeated abuse, or a ski with edges that always maintain their sharpness? Or both?

If you're looking for the former, I've definitely put some though into it:

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/756906/Think-Session--Ski-Edges-

As far as an edge that can be park ridden but maintains it's sharpness goes, that's really just something that's not going to happen. Even if the edges could be put to rails repeatedly and stay sharp, they're sharp so you're probably going to hook and catch on a lot of jibs which isn't much fun.

Personally I do a generous detune that runs the length of the binding area, then leave the rest of my edges sharp. It's definitely not idea for skiing in icy conditions, but it's really not that bad.


i think what would be more efficient is to just instead of having the edge jut down where it meets the snow, make that gradual because edge pull outs are from rocks ripping at that so if it were an angle rocks would be diverted nameen
Mar 18 2015 12:02AM
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steezburgereddie
Posts: 1059 - Karma: 1,944
A wide edge that starts horizintal but begins to upwards a small amount. Similar to the horizontal rocker on the surface lab 001 but just the edges.
Mar 18 2015 12:02AM
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toastyteenagers
Posts: 1834 - Karma: 6,793
mantoastEnd the edges a foot short of bindings. Connect the edges underfoot to the other sides edges so you wont get blowouts maybe?


steeze4daysInteresting thought, although i don't think getting rid of an edge completely is a viable solution i do believe there must be a better way to do it, i myself am not sure of how to solve this problem and I'm sure many before us have also tried, first things that come to my mind though are:

Edge thickness: surely a thicker edge would be more durable and harder to crack/ rip out.

Edge Material: Our edges are made treated steel/stainless steel, maybe we need to develop a better material or alloy to hold up to the demands we now put upon our beloved park skis.

Its clear that money also has a big factor in this and a lot of ski manufacturers probably just don't really care that much and have the mindset of "It's always been done like this" and its reasonably cheap to make them this way, rather than trying to develop the edge and improve it to be more tough.

Hopefully someone involved in the ski manufacturing industry will think of something, although i have no doubt this has been a topic which has been attempted to be solved before.

Would be interesting to see what someone so involved and experienced in the ski Manufacturing industry like JLev thinks of this.


veng_ma detuned in the tip/tail/underfoot edge made out of a synthetic material like a tougher plastic that would dampen some impacts


ANUSTARTIs there such a thing as layered edges? Like two edges with one slightly higher and wider than the one under it. This way youll have a dull underfoot so you dont catch rails and you can carve with the upper one.


enter frankenski.
Mar 18 2015 12:14AM
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QuazBotch
Posts: 3908 - Karma: 216
removable under-foot edges! Take them off your skis in the park for catch free grinds, and they fit in a pocket on your top sheets so you don't lose them or stab yourself when you land on them in your pocket. Put them back on to shred everywhere else.
Mar 18 2015 12:30AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
QuazBotchremovable under-foot edges! Take them off your skis in the park for catch free grinds, and they fit in a pocket on your top sheets so you don't lose them or stab yourself when you land on them in your pocket. Put them back on to shred everywhere else.


I do believe a few brands out there have their own patented versions of this. Armada and Ninthward comes to mind... I'll see if I can dig them up.
Mar 18 2015 12:34AM
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~Gotama~
Posts: 821 - Karma: 3,160
DrZoidbergAs for always sharp edges... Diamond? Corundum?

Does having sharp edges everywhere but underfoot actually make a difference?


Hard minerals are very brittle, and would shatter in an impact against steel, which is softer and malleable. Having sharp edges underfoot is how your ski grips hard snow since the tip and tail will flex against resistance.

I propose a ski that has a mechanical rotating edge powered by a magnet. When engaged by a metal rail, the edge is rotated up exposing only a soft, rounded edge that won't catch and feels buttery smooth. When the magnet is disengaged, the edge rotates down and you have a hard sharp edge that carves like a race ski.
Mar 18 2015 12:53AM
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QuazBotch
Posts: 3908 - Karma: 216
NinetyFourI do believe a few brands out there have their own patented versions of this. Armada and Ninthward comes to mind... I'll see if I can dig them up.


oh wow, Armada had something like it http://www.google.com/patents/US7390009
Mar 18 2015 12:55AM
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NinetyFour
Posts: 8650 - Karma: 13,409
QuazBotchoh wow, Armada had something like it http://www.google.com/patents/US7390009


Yeah that's it. I can't find the Ninthward patent but I know they have one, I've read it before. Here's a thread that covers it though:

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/758754/NinthWard-Removable-Bases
Mar 18 2015 1:31AM
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kalle.
Posts: 727 - Karma: 4,525
to OP thinking of park skis without edges: yes they have been done, i heard line made some for their athletes like will wesson. but there are issues, the ski would become so fragile, since the edge is a part of the whole package that holds the ski together. and even in park you gotta have at least some edge (jumps, getting from top to bottom, turning, and hell, even railing!) you can't actually do any funky stuff on rails if you can't get a grip of the rail.
so yea, works on a thought but in reality, not so much.
Mar 18 2015 6:44AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13054 - Karma: 18,339
The Million dollar problem in ski engineering... A problem being dealt with since 2008
Mar 18 2015 7:48AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13054 - Karma: 18,339
freestyler5402008

1998, my bad
Mar 18 2015 7:50AM
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Steezy_IN_KC
Posts: 2033 - Karma: 1,607
Diamond edged skis. Two added benefits, edge doesn't dull and you stay Icey!
Mar 18 2015 7:56AM
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yungcigsmoker
Posts: 785 - Karma: 5,922
What if the problem lies in the rails? What if we could design rails that sharpen edges rather than dull them.
Mar 18 2015 12:14PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4772 - Karma: 9,984
Mar 18 2015 1:27PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
What about a replaceable cable edge.
Mar 18 2015 3:09PM
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supersquid
Posts: 1430 - Karma: 2,545
how about take the edge out underfoot and replace it with something else, maybe this would work with camber skis but probs not rocker
Mar 18 2015 11:42PM
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stinky_cheese
Posts: 1216 - Karma: 5,118
lib-tech claims to have this weir technology that apparently "allows you to ride your narrow ass boards de-tuned for the park and rails and still get great edgehold all over the mountain"

looks pretty cool, makes your skis look like the ocean
http://www.lib-tech.com/skiing/technology/
Mar 18 2015 11:52PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
How about tuning the ski so the bottom of the edge slopes up from the base. My thought process is that there would be less direct contact with rails and would feel like a beveled (dull) edge until you really put her over into a good turn.
Mar 19 2015 12:05AM
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corona
Posts: 12753 - Karma: 32,285
freestyler540The Million dollar problem in ski engineering... A problem being dealt with since 2008


you mean the problem that would cost a million dollars. if this is solved there would be far fewer pairs of skis sold.
Mar 19 2015 12:32AM
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Deforestation
Posts: 1606 - Karma: 3,192
Simple: Diamond edges
Mar 19 2015 12:41AM
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supersquid
Posts: 1430 - Karma: 2,545
or maybe a metal/liquid/glue that can be filled into edge cracks that makes the edge like new again. or just being able to add a new edge on like scratch the shit out the edge and then put it into a mold that adds more to the edge
Mar 19 2015 12:50AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7099 - Karma: 17,045
I have a half theory for an edge I have been considering.

A big factor in this issue is most brands actually buy the edges from seperate manufacturers so changes to the edge can be hard to achieve as it is not the actual ski manufacturer making the edges. Tooling is in place so other then increasing the size it can be hard to get thins changed.

About 10 years ago my boss at the time had the idea of flipping the edge 90degres in the ski. As you may know the edge has teath which sit under the base and help keep the edge from pullin out. The issue is there is not much to stop the edge pushing upwards. His idea was to flip the teath so they sat under the sidewall. At the time he chatted to the designer of scot skis and he said it probably would not work, but the same guy said he would never build a ski with rocker a it was just a fad so maybe there was somthing to his idea.

My idea is for an edge with two sets of teath. One would sit under the base and one under the sidewall. Perhaps this setup would give a better hold both sideways and upwards. The change would potentially not be too hard to implement as possible the same mold could be used so retooling would not be too costly. It also should not change the flex of the ski to much over a standard edge so long a the teath placement matched up.

Anyway not sure if it would work and if be interested to hear from some ski guys.
Mar 19 2015 12:54AM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
You've gotta think a replaceable, slot-in edge system just for the underfoot area can't be that hard to put together. Have it slot in sideways, edge maybe 10mm wide, and secure it with a couple of counter-sunk hex-head screws. Just need some threaded inserts in the body of the ski - you could probably manufacture a block type system from milled ABS that had the threaded inserts in it that was incorporated into the ski when it was built, and wrapped most of the way around the core in the middle to prevent the fixing system pulling away from the ski.
Mar 19 2015 12:59AM
1 0
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7099 - Karma: 17,045
rozboonYou've gotta think a replaceable, slot-in edge system just for the underfoot area can't be that hard to put together. Have it slot in sideways, edge maybe 10mm wide, and secure it with a couple of counter-sunk hex-head screws. Just need some threaded inserts in the body of the ski - you could probably manufacture a block type system from milled ABS that had the threaded inserts in it that was incorporated into the ski when it was built, and wrapped most of the way around the core in the middle to prevent the fixing system pulling away from the ski.


The issue with a system that screws in, I have always thought is the lack of flex you could Get. If you screw somthing in, in multiple places then the ski can not flex between those points or it would distort the screw holes.

I agree though replaceable is a great way to go but I do not think screwing or bolting is the way to go unfortunately.

maybe onenerdykid has some input here as I have a feeling replaceable edges is somthing atomic have been considering
Mar 19 2015 1:04AM
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250r
Posts: 2274 - Karma: 1,020
tomPietrowskiI have a half theory for an edge I have been considering.

A big factor in this issue is most brands actually buy the edges from seperate manufacturers so changes to the edge can be hard to achieve as it is not the actual ski manufacturer making the edges. Tooling is in place so other then increasing the size it can be hard to get thins changed.

About 10 years ago my boss at the time had the idea of flipping the edge 90degres in the ski. As you may know the edge has teath which sit under the base and help keep the edge from pullin out. The issue is there is not much to stop the edge pushing upwards. His idea was to flip the teath so they sat under the sidewall. At the time he chatted to the designer of scot skis and he said it probably would not work, but the same guy said he would never build a ski with rocker a it was just a fad so maybe there was somthing to his idea.

My idea is for an edge with two sets of teath. One would sit under the base and one under the sidewall. Perhaps this setup would give a better hold both sideways and upwards. The change would potentially not be too hard to implement as possible the same mold could be used so retooling would not be too costly. It also should not change the flex of the ski to much over a standard edge so long a the teath placement matched up.

Anyway not sure if it would work and if be interested to hear from some ski guys.


no expereience in building skis here, but you'd only really need that underfoot, which is where the sidewalls are higher to accommodate the vertical staples. but maybe it wouldn't work with the layering of the core? isn't the way the staples work by being sandwiched between the base and the lowest layer of the core? not sure how'd you do that working against the grain of the layers. just my uneducated guesses.
Mar 19 2015 2:08AM
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lwgp
Posts: 167 - Karma: 325
diamond edges
Mar 19 2015 11:30AM
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03gade
Posts: 856 - Karma: 3,263
QuazBotchoh wow, Armada had something like it http://www.google.com/patents/US7390009


This is clearly the best option. It is nice that someone has thought of this problem and this seems to be the best solution. You can still have your edge but when it becomes useless you can replace it. Or you can even pack a dull edge and a sharp edge and change them out, even if it cant be done on the mountain quickly per se. Armada needs to get on this. The ar7 and e dollo are already loved park skis, you add this to it, sales would increase.
Mar 19 2015 12:16PM
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seward
Posts: 5233 - Karma: 2,174
theres really no way around it.

1 pair park skis.
1 pair all mountain.
1 pair deep pow.

youll love yourself for getting a nice 3 ski quiv.
Mar 19 2015 12:35PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
tomPietrowskiThe issue with a system that screws in, I have always thought is the lack of flex you could Get. If you screw somthing in, in multiple places then the ski can not flex between those points or it would distort the screw holes.

I agree though replaceable is a great way to go but I do not think screwing or bolting is the way to go unfortunately.

maybe onenerdykid has some input here as I have a feeling replaceable edges is somthing atomic have been considering


Hrm good thoughts.
Maybe if the mounting points in the ski were floating on one axis (lengthwise) - if the threaded inserts were in a slot with firm rubber on the lengthwise sides, this would allow the ski to flex while still being rigid in the other 2 directions.
Mar 19 2015 3:06PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7099 - Karma: 17,045
rozboonHrm good thoughts.
Maybe if the mounting points in the ski were floating on one axis (lengthwise) - if the threaded inserts were in a slot with firm rubber on the lengthwise sides, this would allow the ski to flex while still being rigid in the other 2 directions.

Yep if you wanted to go bolt on that would be the way to go.

I think possibly a slide in section would work better though. Imagine if you could get replacement sections of edge which you could slot in each side underfoot. You could have pre rounded edges and sharp edges so it would be possible to have one ski for both carving and rails. The hard part would be to build an interface between edge section and core. It would have to be strong enough to stay in place when hooking up on rails but be easily remiveable when swapping edges. Not sure how it could work really but it would be cool I always thought.
Mar 19 2015 7:20PM
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JibbaTheHutt
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 1,597
lpowerdiamond edges


using nano technology it would be possible to create diamond composite edges, in order to keep costs lower than straight diamond.
Mar 19 2015 7:31PM
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equinn
Posts: 718 - Karma: 3,673
if you dont have edges, theyll never break
Mar 19 2015 7:57PM
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Squirrel_Murphy
Posts: 2195 - Karma: 1,165
sewardtheres really no way around it.

1 pair park skis.
1 pair all mountain.
1 pair deep pow.

youll love yourself for getting a nice 3 ski quiv.


This. Add a 4th pair of Gnar GS race skis if that's your style.
Mar 19 2015 8:28PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
tomPietrowskiYep if you wanted to go bolt on that would be the way to go.

I think possibly a slide in section would work better though. Imagine if you could get replacement sections of edge which you could slot in each side underfoot. You could have pre rounded edges and sharp edges so it would be possible to have one ski for both carving and rails. The hard part would be to build an interface between edge section and core. It would have to be strong enough to stay in place when hooking up on rails but be easily remiveable when swapping edges. Not sure how it could work really but it would be cool I always thought.


I think we're talking about more or less the same thing - basically the end result is a slot or some sort of interface in the side of the ski that you insert a section of edge maybe 30cm long into.

Perhaps a combination of a sort of tongue-and-groove with dowels into the core/into a rubber-mounted socket, perhaps with 2 or so fasteners going through the edge "block" into the core, again into rubber mounted threaded inserts.
Mar 19 2015 8:46PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7099 - Karma: 17,045
rozboonI think we're talking about more or less the same thing - basically the end result is a slot or some sort of interface in the side of the ski that you insert a section of edge maybe 30cm long into.

Perhaps a combination of a sort of tongue-and-groove with dowels into the core/into a rubber-mounted socket, perhaps with 2 or so fasteners going through the edge "block" into the core, again into rubber mounted threaded inserts.


Yeah exactly. The way I see itis like a cartridge you slot into the ski. its how to hold it in and also if you would put it under the base or if base would be on the part you slot in.
Mar 19 2015 9:20PM
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406
Posts: 2302 - Karma: 92
On3p has already accomplished this
Mar 19 2015 9:40PM
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
tomPietrowskiYeah exactly. The way I see itis like a cartridge you slot into the ski. its how to hold it in and also if you would put it under the base or if base would be on the part you slot in.


I think under the base for the internal part, but have the edge part maybe ~10mm wide so it's really strong and resists cracking.
Mar 19 2015 9:57PM
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