Do you believe there is a God?

Charlie_KellyThe Christian faith believes god created the stars and universe. We have evidence to suggest otherwise. So if a faith states one thing and science proves that to be untrue, wouldn't that be disproving the faith?

To me religious people like yourself are in the same category as the people who believed the earth was flat and/or the people that believed the sun rotated around the earth. You have no evidence to suggest that what you believe is true, but you believe it anyways because it seems right to you. Then science proves what you believe is wrong, but you write it off or ignore it. It's actually funny because the Church persecuted people that DIDNT believe the earth was flat/the sun rotated around the earth. But over time more people became EDUCATED on the science behind the claims (which seemed ridiculous at the time) and eventually these falsehoods were done away with.

It was actually fairly well known that the earth was round....pretty much everybody could tell from the stars. Mostly a myth that everybody thought the earth was flat.

Charlie_KellyThe Christian faith believes god created the stars and universe. We have evidence to suggest otherwise. So if a faith states one thing and science proves that to be untrue, wouldn't that be disproving the faith?

To me religious people like yourself are in the same category as the people who believed the earth was flat and/or the people that believed the sun rotated around the earth. You have no evidence to suggest that what you believe is true, but you believe it anyways because it seems right to you. Then science proves what you believe is wrong, but you write it off or ignore it. It's actually funny because the Church persecuted people that DIDNT believe the earth was flat/the sun rotated around the earth. But over time more people became EDUCATED on the science behind the claims (which seemed ridiculous at the time) and eventually these falsehoods were done away with.

Remember the time someone found carbon in a dinosaur bone? Nope, no one does. The scientific community wrote it off as a mistake rather than looking into it. That is the definition of bias. Goes against your belief so you write it off as false. Wait but I thought the scientific community was completely unbiased and only out there to help us and make our lives better?? Guess not

milk_manYou must have misunderstood. The act of giving us free will and the fall of man is a one time thing. It isn't redone for every human. Sin came into the world because humans could not handle free will. We are disobedient and sinful.

Suffering exists because of the initial misuse of free will. Not the present misuse of free will.

So bone cancer in children is God's perfectly benevolent response to 2 people sinning in the Garden of Eden? This is what a vengeful Greek God would do, not a perfectly benevolent being. A perfectly benevolent being does not cause the innocent to suffer, then command them to love him, and if they don't love him for giving them bone cancer they will spend all of eternity suffering in hell fire. This is not the mark of a perfectly benevolent being- this is the mark of vengeful, sociopathic narcissist. How does this make total sense to you but Islam is the non-believable religion?

Also, bare in mind that due to God's perfect omniscience, he would have foreseen their sinning. He would have known this would happen- “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4). So by definition he knows that Adam & Eve will sin, knowingly creates them anyway, and when they sin he punishes them for it. God is the cause of the fall of man- his omnipotent and omniscient nature leaves no way around it. He knowingly made us this way, so why punish us if we could not have acted any other way? It doesn't make sense.

The only way to make sense of this is either:
1. God is perfectly omniscient, perfectly omnipotent but not perfectly benevolent, and we don't have free will or
2. We have free will and God is only semi-knowing and semi-powerful but all-good (he just can't stop all of the bad things from happening) or
3. We have free will and God is only semi-knowing, semi-powerful, and semi-good (he just doesn't care to always stop all of the bad things from happening).

I don't claim to know which one it is, but it is completely irrational to think that God is perfectly omniscient, perfectly omnipotent, perfectly benevolent, and we have free will. It is completely contradictory to maintain this and it contradicts the evidence that surrounds us on a daily basis.

milk_manWait but I thought the scientific community was completely unbiased and only out there to help us and make our lives better?? Guess not

Who the hell ever claimed this? As long as humans are involved, bias will be possible. The trick is to be aware of the possibility/probability of bias and do you best to protect against it.

onenerdykidSo bone cancer in children is God's perfectly benevolent response to 2 people sinning in the Garden of Eden? This is what a vengeful Greek God would do, not a perfectly benevolent being. A perfectly benevolent being does not cause the innocent to suffer, then command them to love him, and if they don't love him for giving them bone cancer they will spend all of eternity suffering in hell fire. This is not the mark of a perfectly benevolent being- this is the mark of vengeful, sociopathic narcissist. How does this make total sense to you but Islam is the non-believable religion?

Also, bare in mind that due to God's perfect omniscience, he would have foreseen their sinning. He would have known this would happen- “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4). So by definition he knows that Adam & Eve will sin, knowingly creates them anyway, and when they sin he punishes them for it. God is the cause of the fall of man- his omnipotent and omniscient nature leaves no way around it. He knowingly made us this way, so why punish us if we could not have acted any other way? It doesn't make sense.

The only way to make sense of this is either:
1. God is perfectly omniscient, perfectly omnipotent but not perfectly benevolent, and we don't have free will or
2. We have free will and God is only semi-knowing and semi-powerful but all-good (he just can't stop all of the bad things from happening) or
3. We have free will and God is only semi-knowing, semi-powerful, and semi-good (he just doesn't care to always stop all of the bad things from happening).

I don't claim to know which one it is, but it is completely irrational to think that God is perfectly omniscient, perfectly omnipotent, perfectly benevolent, and we have free will. It is completely contradictory to maintain this and it contradicts the evidence that surrounds us on a daily basis.

Read your first question and had to stop reading. It's really just too much. And to answer you, no.

milk_manRead your first question and had to stop reading. It's really just too much. And to answer you, no.

Well, it is a response to your position that all suffering is result of our free will and the one single fall of man. When you want to take the time to read through it, I'll be ready to continue the discussion.

onenerdykidWell, it is a response to your position that all suffering is result of our free will and the one single fall of man. When you want to take the time to read through it, I'll be ready to continue the discussion.

Sin was not a judgment on humans from God. It was a willful choice that we made that necessitated death and suffering.

Drank a shitload of caffeine earlier and can't sleep so let's fucking do this. I haven't read the thread but here are my thoughts.

First of all, the pope supports the big bang theory and evolution, which is badass and a huge step for Christianity towards seeming a little less completely insane. The thing I don't think atheists understand is that many spiritual people are NOT the psychotic sheep that seem almost mentally challenged to a rational person.

I am a Christian but I will never discount any kind of science in the name of it. People that do in my opinion are complete idiots no matter how "smart" they might be.

At the same time, I find it very hard to just accept that this ball of matter that exploded into the universe happened to randomly exist. What was before it? Well nothing I guess since it created time, but these concepts are just so fucking wacky and beyond grasping that I really don't see a difference in legitimacy between thinking it "just was" or that something put it there. I mean think about that concept. How the fuck can science explain the odds and ends of CREATING TIME (I'm actually asking, I love learning more about this stuff so feel free to share a link or whatever). And then of course we have to ask, what is the point of any of this? And then wait, isn't the world as we know it just a construct- even a delusion maybe- within each one of our brains? ...wow very off track. anyways.

I choose God to believe in but essentially just believe in some type of grand orchestration. Because why not?? It's a fun way to look at the world and if it makes me try to be a "better" person in the meantime, fuck yeah that's cool. The bottom line is that Christianity promotes positive thought and action. Hopefully the fucking idiots completely missing the point and destroying its image (looking at you Catholicism/ people who will donate $10 to their church and then ignore a homeless dude) die out soon.

...and now I will never forgive myself for wasting 30 minutes writing about religion on a ski website forum

Also adding that there is a fundamental difference in ideology that creates this atheist/ spiritual divide. Some people think that such a small chance of us existing is evidence for a higher power. What an absolutely narcissistic idea. Life only exists because earth happens to be in the exact, right spot. With 100 billion stars out there one of them was bound to have "everything align perfectly" to allow life to begin. God might have designed the universe this way but it's insane to think it's all for us.

special-JAlso adding that there is a fundamental difference in ideology that creates this atheist/ spiritual divide. Some people think that such a small chance of us existing is evidence for a higher power. What an absolutely narcissistic idea. Life only exists because earth happens to be in the exact, right spot. With 100 billion stars out there one of them was bound to have "everything align perfectly" to allow life to begin. God might have designed the universe this way but it's insane to think it's all for us.

Actually, the odds are much smaller than 1 in 100 billion. So it's more likely that none of those other planets contain life

Profahoben_212It was actually fairly well known that the earth was round....pretty much everybody could tell from the stars. Mostly a myth that everybody thought the earth was flat.

So what about the other example?

milk_manRemember the time someone found carbon in a dinosaur bone? Nope, no one does. The scientific community wrote it off as a mistake rather than looking into it. That is the definition of bias. Goes against your belief so you write it off as false. Wait but I thought the scientific community was completely unbiased and only out there to help us and make our lives better?? Guess not

You're going to have to elaborate...

Charlie_KellySo what about the other example?



You're going to have to elaborate...

I was simply pointing out that your point was largely incoreect.

But okay....so you say you have proof that the universe wasn't created by God? Well the big bang I guess....but who is to say that the big bang wasn't gods way to create the universe? That question won't be answered, it's just a loop so there is no reason to argue it

Wow 15 pages here that I don't have time to read. Anyhoo I went up to the mountain yesterday expecting a skating rink and I got some pow turns. God bless NS! Hell yeah!!!

Profahoben_212I was simply pointing out that your point was largely incoreect.

But okay....so you say you have proof that the universe wasn't created by God? Well the big bang I guess....but who is to say that the big bang wasn't gods way to create the universe? That question won't be answered, it's just a loop so there is no reason to argue it

Is that your personal interpretation? Because if we go off scripture, which is entirely what religion is based around, then no that's not how god created the universe.

We already understand how planets are formed, and no they weren't created by an alpowerful being.

We have carbon dating (among other methods) that has already disproved the "religious age" of the earth.

But that's besides the point. You're missed my point...you believe something without a shred of proof. People believed the sun rotated around the earth without a shred of proof. If you don't believe in God you are to go to hell correct? Similar to how people who didn't believe that the sun orbited the earth were persecuted by the Church...turns out the Church was wrong...what's new...

Also, there were people that believed the earth was flat. Shit, there are still people that believe the earth is flat even though there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it is round...hmmm....sound familiar....

special-JHopefully the fucking idiots completely missing the point and destroying its image (looking at you Catholicism/ people who will donate $10 to their church and then ignore a homeless dude) die out soon.

...and now I will never forgive myself for wasting 30 minutes writing about religion on a ski website forum

Hmmmm... you're forgetting: Orthodox Christianity, ie "Catholicism" and certain various "Orthodox" (as we now refer to various other Churches) congregations ARE Christianity.

I think, if you believe yourself to be "christian," you should start doing some historical research into what and how the "Church" is, what it has historically believed, and why - as well as how and why and when the protestant denominations first emerged and how they have changed over time. You'll likely be surprised at what you find.

TWoodsHmmmm... you're forgetting: Orthodox Christianity, ie "Catholicism" and certain various "Orthodox" (as we now refer to various other Churches) congregations ARE Christianity.

I think, if you believe yourself to be "christian," you should start doing some historical research into what and how the "Church" is, what it has historically believed, and why - as well as how and why and when the protestant denominations first emerged and how they have changed over time. You'll likely be surprised at what you find.

how about you just shut the fuck up

TWoodsHmmmm... you're forgetting: Orthodox Christianity, ie "Catholicism" and certain various "Orthodox" (as we now refer to various other Churches) congregations ARE Christianity.

I think, if you believe yourself to be "christian," you should start doing some historical research into what and how the "Church" is, what it has historically believed, and why - as well as how and why and when the protestant denominations first emerged and how they have changed over time. You'll likely be surprised at what you find.

Good point. I know these things are what Christianity technically is, but I think the changing hands throughout history have blown it way off track from the basis of what it means to "serve God."

What solidified my spiritual faith was a Presbyterian high school youth group made up of some of the best people I've ever met (not Jesus freaks, just genuinely awesome people) and the focus was general spirituality in the name of God.

Maybe my true faith isn't Christianity, but just a higher power? I'm too skeptical to blindly and totally accept anything and I can't say one version of god is the truth over another. This one, though, makes sense to me and I've felt its influence in my life so that's what I'm going with.

special-JGood point. I know these things are what Christianity technically is, but I think the changing hands throughout history have blown it way off track from the basis of what it means to "serve God."

What solidified my spiritual faith was a Presbyterian high school youth group made up of some of the best people I've ever met (not Jesus freaks, just genuinely awesome people) and the focus was general spirituality in the name of God.

Maybe my true faith isn't Christianity, but just a higher power? I'm too skeptical to blindly and totally accept anything and I can't say one version of god is the truth over another. This one, though, makes sense to me and I've felt its influence in my life so that's what I'm going with.

Good response, I love it. Also, re-reading mine, I sounded snobbish about it.... totally not my intent! I've always had a bad habit of doing that, gotten a lot better if that tells you anything about how bad I used to be... haha.

Anyways... I DON'T intend to say 'you're wrong'. But I DO want to challenge you, based on my own experience. Because, frankly, my experience is much like yours.

I was raised Presbyterian. I left any sort of "practice" of faith when I was about 14 - did so because I wanted to ski more, and frankly, much like you, I didn't see any value in what was going on there specifically. It didn't make sense to me that this one denomination was the right one, and I had had enough of the argument. If each denomination was about finding your own "flavor" of Christianity that leads you to Christ, then my preferred path was outside. In the mountains. On actual paths... haha.

Come college. I make some catholic friends, and I start to think, again about what it might actually mean to be Christian. Intellectual honesty, an interest in history and philosophy, and pure curiosity led me further and further, until all at once, in an instant, I couldn't deny it anymore.

What I was doing before made sense, and worked for me... just as you say. But, I discovered something that made MORE sense, and worked BETTER for me. I haven't found anything like it in my life, and I don't believe I ever will.

So, take it or leave it, but this is a personal challenge from me, to you, to see if what you understand about your faith and Christianity in general is authentic. And it's as honest an invitation as it gets; if you (or anyone reading this) wants to hear more of my story, or has any questions for me, feel free to DM Me.

milk_manSin was not a judgment on humans from God. It was a willful choice that we made that necessitated death and suffering.

It only necessitated death and suffering because god decided it would. He also decided what that death and suffering would be like. He also decided to make the sort of creatures that would make that choice, thus guaranteeing the death and suffering that he had already decided would be the consequence.

You can try taking god out of the equation as much as you like but it doesn't really hold up. The whole 'original sin/free will' explanation of suffering remains a ludicrously incoherent attempt at justifying really terrible things.

special-JWhat solidified my spiritual faith was a Presbyterian high school youth group made up of some of the best people I've ever met (not Jesus freaks, just genuinely awesome people)

I notice this sort of thing a lot. When religious people really start talking about what gives them faith, or what makes them feel special in their church, or the great things their involvement in church/religion brings to their life, it often seems to centre around other humans and things they've done, and not some supernatural being.

What really seems to make the difference is other humans being kind, supportive, wise, knowledgable, compassionate, caring etc. God or religious scripture always gets the credit of course, but it seems to actually be other awesome humans providing that sense of community and fostering a sense of well being in believers.

Which is a bit weird given that humans are supposedly inherently flawed and full of sin.

minihefIt only necessitated death and suffering because god decided it would. He also decided what that death and suffering would be like. He also decided to make the sort of creatures that would make that choice, thus guaranteeing the death and suffering that he had already decided would be the consequence.

You can try taking god out of the equation as much as you like but it doesn't really hold up. The whole 'original sin/free will' explanation of suffering remains a ludicrously incoherent attempt at justifying really terrible things.

It wasn't some blind choice that they made. God told them if they ate from that tree they're would surely die. But it's not about the tree and eating--that wasn't the sin. Rebelling against God was the sin.

Actions have consequences.

Also, you saying that he created us in such a way that we would make that choice is wrong. It's true that He knew we would make that choice, but he did not create us in such a way that we would make that choice. If he created us to make that choice it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a programmed action.

But it comes down to the angel who also rebelled against God and fell. If it wasn't for that angel the woman maybe wouldn't have been tempted to rebel. Who knows? But saying that God intended all this is flat out wrong. And blaming suffering and pain on God is like blaming your parents when you fall down and get hurt.

milk_manIt wasn't some blind choice that they made. God told them if they ate from that tree they're would surely die. But it's not about the tree and eating--that wasn't the sin. Rebelling against God was the sin.

Actions have consequences.

So what? He made them that way. He chose to make creatures that would rebel against him, and chose for the consequences of that to be death and suffering. He also chose what forms that death and suffering would take (and he has quite the sadistic imagination).

milk_manAlso, you saying that he created us in such a way that we would make that choice is wrong. It's true that He knew we would make that choice, but he did not create us in such a way that we would make that choice. If he created us to make that choice it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a programmed action.

You're tying yourself in knots. He knew we would make that choice, and still chose to make us in the same way. He could have easily avoided all the pain and suffering by making us slightly differently, but apparently had no interest in doing so.

milk_manBut it comes down to the angel who also rebelled against God and fell. If it wasn't for that angel the woman maybe wouldn't have been tempted to rebel. Who knows? But saying that God intended all this is flat out wrong.

God supposedly designed this whole thing. He supposedly created everything and is supposedly all knowing and all powerful. And yet you spend your time trying to squirm his way out of any responsibility for any of this. It's laughable.

milk_manAnd blaming suffering and pain on God is like blaming your parents when you fall down and get hurt.

That's an awful analogy. Although it does have an interesting tangent. Most human parents would do absolutely anything within their power to stop their child getting hurt or suffering. That shows far more compassion than the Christian God can lay claim to - he is supposedly all powerful and yet not only created a situation in which death and suffering was inevitable, and not only idly watches whilst that suffering afflicts billions of his 'children', but he then sends those 'children' who simply don't believe in him to hell for yet more suffering.

Great god you've got there.

minihefSo what? He made them that way. He chose to make creatures that would rebel against him, and chose for the consequences of that to be death and suffering. He also chose what forms that death and suffering would take (and he has quite the sadistic imagination).



You're tying yourself in knots. He knew we would make that choice, and still chose to make us in the same way. He could have easily avoided all the pain and suffering by making us slightly differently, but apparently had no interest in doing so.



God supposedly designed this whole thing. He supposedly created everything and is supposedly all knowing and all powerful. And yet you spend your time trying to squirm his way out of any responsibility for any of this. It's laughable.



That's an awful analogy. Although it does have an interesting tangent. Most human parents would do absolutely anything within their power to stop their child getting hurt or suffering. That shows far more compassion than the Christian God can lay claim to - he is supposedly all powerful and yet not only created a situation in which death and suffering was inevitable, and not only idly watches whilst that suffering afflicts billions of his 'children', but he then sends those 'children' who simply don't believe in him to hell for yet more suffering.

Great god you've got there.

Sounds like you have bitterness for some reason. That should be worked out.

I think what you're asking for is a world where no one does anything wrong, and it's like a perfect tv show where everything is happy and predictable. Do you realize how many things in your life and mine would be cut out because of that? No, you don't.. if you did know I don't think you would want that.

Temporary suffering, eternal peace. Yeah, my God is definitely fair and loving, 100%. To ask for complete happiness in this life AND the next sounds very millennial-ish.

TWoodsGood response, I love it. Also, re-reading mine, I sounded snobbish about it.... totally not my intent! I've always had a bad habit of doing that, gotten a lot better if that tells you anything about how bad I used to be... haha.

Anyways... I DON'T intend to say 'you're wrong'. But I DO want to challenge you, based on my own experience. Because, frankly, my experience is much like yours.

I was raised Presbyterian. I left any sort of "practice" of faith when I was about 14 - did so because I wanted to ski more, and frankly, much like you, I didn't see any value in what was going on there specifically. It didn't make sense to me that this one denomination was the right one, and I had had enough of the argument. If each denomination was about finding your own "flavor" of Christianity that leads you to Christ, then my preferred path was outside. In the mountains. On actual paths... haha.

Come college. I make some catholic friends, and I start to think, again about what it might actually mean to be Christian. Intellectual honesty, an interest in history and philosophy, and pure curiosity led me further and further, until all at once, in an instant, I couldn't deny it anymore.

What I was doing before made sense, and worked for me... just as you say. But, I discovered something that made MORE sense, and worked BETTER for me. I haven't found anything like it in my life, and I don't believe I ever will.

So, take it or leave it, but this is a personal challenge from me, to you, to see if what you understand about your faith and Christianity in general is authentic. And it's as honest an invitation as it gets; if you (or anyone reading this) wants to hear more of my story, or has any questions for me, feel free to DM Me.

Again, good point and I get what you're saying. Maybe if I dedicated myself to Catholicism I COULD have the same realization, who knows. My problem with it is that I have no desire to associate with that denomination (or any honestly because of the skewed inherent belief that one version is above another), and this is caused entirely by the people that are.

For example, during Catholic Christmas mass (Catholic family) I watched at least 100 people glancing around the room, clearly paying absolutely no attention to what they were saying during the apostle's creed. Catholicism has become more of a routine and social construct than actual belief. Otherwise those people would have their head down or hands into the damn sky instead of swaying back and forth and thinking of something totally different.

In the end, if I'm an inferior Christian because I don't know specific details and stories or cling to a denomination, then the people thinking I'm a bad Christian are already missing the point.

minihefI notice this sort of thing a lot. When religious people really start talking about what gives them faith, or what makes them feel special in their church, or the great things their involvement in church/religion brings to their life, it often seems to centre around other humans and things they've done, and not some supernatural being.

What really seems to make the difference is other humans being kind, supportive, wise, knowledgable, compassionate, caring etc. God or religious scripture always gets the credit of course, but it seems to actually be other awesome humans providing that sense of community and fostering a sense of well being in believers.

Which is a bit weird given that humans are supposedly inherently flawed and full of sin.

hahahahaha way to literally pull part of a sentence out of context. You have just invalidated the worth of any argument with you.

athiest are depressed morons. there is a god

athiest are depressed morons. there is a god

milk_manAlso, you saying that he created us in such a way that we would make that choice is wrong. It's true that He knew we would make that choice, but he did not create us in such a way that we would make that choice. If he created us to make that choice it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a programmed action.

But it comes down to the angel who also rebelled against God and fell. If it wasn't for that angel the woman maybe wouldn't have been tempted to rebel. Who knows? But saying that God intended all this is flat out wrong. And blaming suffering and pain on God is like blaming your parents when you fall down and get hurt.

It's hardly the same thing- my parents don't claim to be perfectly omniscient, perfectly omnipotent, and perfectly benevolent.

In our space/time continuum, you can't have free will and perfect omniscience - it's a contradiction, just like a square sphere or a married bachelor. God cannot think of a square sphere any more than he can give us free will and have perfect omniscience. If God has perfect omniscience, then he knows exactly what I will do, when I do it, where I will do it, and why I will do it. And if God is perfectly omnipotent, then he made me this way- there is no accident or surprise. So yes, sin is a direct result of God and he intended it. You can play all of the mental gymnastics you want but this is a major contradiction and flaw in your religious ideology. There is no free will and perfect omniscience, you can't have both*.

*One possible exception to this is if God were completely outside space & time- he would theoretically see/know all of existence in one single instant, not in sequential moments the way we do. This is one way God would be able to know all things and we could have free will. But such a God is impossible to interact with and have a personal relationship with (since interaction with us requires existing in a sequential space/time continuum) and is therefore not the God of Christianity. This is more of a "Deist"/ultimate cause conception of God.

SkiingBurgularathiest are depressed morons. there is a god

If it were that easy, we'd all be convinced and there would be very little discussion or confusion about the nature of God or what he wants us to do. And how is that looking so far?

special-Jhahahahaha way to literally pull part of a sentence out of context. You have just invalidated the worth of any argument with you.

I was making a general comment about something I've noticed a lot with lots of different people, and not just pulling apart your sentence. I made that perfectly clear.

It sounds like you just don't want to engage with the point I made.

milk_manSounds like you have bitterness for some reason. That should be worked out.

I think what you're asking for is a world where no one does anything wrong, and it's like a perfect tv show where everything is happy and predictable. Do you realize how many things in your life and mine would be cut out because of that? No, you don't.. if you did know I don't think you would want that.

Temporary suffering, eternal peace. Yeah, my God is definitely fair and loving, 100%. To ask for complete happiness in this life AND the next sounds very millennial-ish.

Not bitter. I just find the different ways christians tie themselves in knots in their attempts to justify suffering interesting.

I'm not asking for a world in which noone does anything wrong. I just think that if a truly benevolent and powerful god existed then maybe there wouldn't be millions of children starving to death, and millions of people dying from not having access to clean water, and millions of people suffering from horrifically painful afflictions and diseases.

Of course you think all this is mankind's fault because two people ages ago disobeyed God on one occasion. That, in my opinion, is fucked.

Eternal peace eh? Unless you don't happen to believe the right god of course. You could dedicate your life to helping those in need, feeding starving children, being kind to others, and yet if you don't believe the right god you are not getting that eternal peace, but will instead be rewarded with eternal torment. That eternal peace is saved for the rapists and murderers who ask for forgiveness through Jesus. Again, this teaching is morally fucked.

onenerdykidIf it were that easy, we'd all be convinced and there would be very little discussion or confusion about the nature of God or what he wants us to do. And how is that looking so far?

There has been so many near death experiences and they all say the saw the same thing. There is no such thing as a mass hallucination

minihefI was making a general comment about something I've noticed a lot with lots of different people, and not just pulling apart your sentence. I made that perfectly clear.

It sounds like you just don't want to engage with the point I made.

it sounds that way because you made an ignorant point. Forget that I even said the "amazing people" part and continue reading the sentence. OR better yet let's consider it. Maybe you hear this so often because being a "good" Christian would directly influence someone to be a generally "great" person?

SkiingBurgularThere has been so many near death experiences and they all say the saw the same thing. There is no such thing as a mass hallucination

So all people see Allah in the afterlife? No. Some see Jesus. Some see Shiva. Some see the Earth Mother. Tell me again how they all see the same thing and how it doesn't in any way relate to their subjective belief system and cultural upbringing.

Again, a very plausible reason they all see similar things is maybe because they're all human and we all have very similar brains that when deprived of oxygen for long enough they go a bit haywire? We are barely beginning to understand the complexity and mystery of the human brain. It would be a huge mistake to abandon that quest to understand it and claim that what people are experiencing is indeed the afterlife.

special-Jit sounds that way because you made an ignorant point. Forget that I even said the "amazing people" part and continue reading the sentence. OR better yet let's consider it. Maybe you hear this so often because being a "good" Christian would directly influence someone to be a generally "great" person?

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."

SkiingBurgularThere has been so many near death experiences and they all say the saw the same thing. There is no such thing as a mass hallucination

No they see the god (or Jesus) they were raised to believe in. You're essentially tripping on DMT when you have a near death experience. Try again.

onenerdykidSo all people see Allah in the afterlife? No. Some see Jesus. Some see Shiva. Some see the Earth Mother. Tell me again how they all see the same thing and how it doesn't in any way relate to their subjective belief system and cultural upbringing.

Again, a very plausible reason they all see similar things is maybe because they're all human and we all have very similar brains that when deprived of oxygen for long enough they go a bit haywire? We are barely beginning to understand the complexity and mystery of the human brain. It would be a huge mistake to abandon that quest to understand it and claim that what people are experiencing is indeed the afterlife.



"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."

He's probably talking about the muslims who have seen Jesus in their near death experience and converted afterward. Also non believers who have near death experiences and become a Christian because of what they see.

onenerdykid*One possible exception to this is if God were completely outside space & time- he would theoretically see/know all of existence in one single instant, not in sequential moments the way we do. This is one way God would be able to know all things and we could have free will. But such a God is impossible to interact with and have a personal relationship with (since interaction with us requires existing in a sequential space/time continuum) and is therefore not the God of Christianity. This is more of a "Deist"/ultimate cause conception of God.

Can he not be both inside and outside the space time continuum at the same time? We are doing ourselves a disservice to limit God based on laws that apply to physical beings.

Can God create a hot cold ember ice cube? These questions do not apply to any real argument. It's just a twist of human language

milk_manHe's probably talking about the muslims who have seen Jesus in their near death experience and converted afterward. Also non believers who have near death experiences and become a Christian because of what they see.

Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Shiva, etc. are all in my subconsciousness too. And if unlocked in my brain during an unconscious state, then I could very well experience any/all of them and have exactly the same experiences that many people have had. Again, I don't disagree that people are having these experiences. But just because someone hallucinates and thinks that they are flying when in reality they are lying down, it doesn't mean they are capable of unaided flight. You cannot claim with certainty that they visited the afterlife- especially if they all see conflicting accounts of the "one true God".

milk_manCan he not be both inside and outside the space time continuum at the same time? We are doing ourselves a disservice to limit God based on laws that apply to physical beings.

Can God create a hot cold ember ice cube? These questions do not apply to any real argument. It's just a twist of human language

Simple answer- if God were in our space and time, he would be moving from moment to moment and thus experience the slightest of changes. God always IS. He is not capable of being in the past, for then he would not longer BE. Such a change constitutes an imperfection, which God is not. This by no means says God doesn't exist, just challenges how your religion tries to depict him.

They actually aren't twists of language- a real contradiction is an impossibility. By definition, no God is capable of the impossible, otherwise it would be possible. And if you admit that your God is capable of such things then your God is unintelligible and not understandable. If God could think of a square sphere, then he would be on a realm unintelligible by us. And if this is the case, then you can't understand your God, which then means you cannot have any meaningful interaction with your God- is that the road you really want to go down? Yet to say this does not actually place limits on any God. It is not a negative critique of God to say he cannot do the impossible.

But if the space/time contradiction doesn't cause you to think otherwise, let's take a much more simple one - The Golden Rule and its implications for the New Testament. The Golden Rule, do unto others as you would want done to you, is a very wise saying and an incredibly good rule to live by. But Jesus himself completely contradicts this in his treatment of women and in his justification of slavery.

Slavery:
Titus 2:9-10 - Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.

1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh.

Colossians 3:22 - Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.

Women are Inferior to Men:

1 Timothy 2:12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Corinthians 14:34-35 - The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

No man would want to be treated as women ought to be treated in the Bible, and no human would want to be treated as slaves are to be treated in the Bible, yet Jesus himself claims that women are inferior to men and slavery is totally fine. These passages has been used to prevent women from voting, from having equal pay to men, equal say over their bodies, and the religious justification for slavery in the American south. Both are absolutely immoral conduct that in every way violates the Golden Rule.

i think that what ever you believe in, you see in the afterlife.

SkiingBurgulari think that what ever you believe in, you see in the afterlife.

So suicide bombers will get their 72 virgins!?

SkiingBurgulari think that what ever you believe in, you see in the afterlife.

I vehemently disagree. But I may have misunderstood what you mean

milk_manI vehemently disagree. But I may have misunderstood what you mean

if you believe in jesus and god, you will see them. if you believe in allah you will see him

SkiingBurgularif you believe in jesus and god, you will see them. if you believe in allah you will see him

Allah is the exact same God that Christians believe in....and the exact same God that Jews believe in....and the exact same God that Mormons believe on....and the exact same God that rastafarians believe in....just different messiahs

Profahoben_212Allah is the exact same God that Christians believe in....and the exact same God that Jews believe in....and the exact same God that Mormons believe on....and the exact same God that rastafarians believe in....just different messiahs

True, but it is worth noting just how very different each of God's messages/messengers are. It's hard to see the exact same God acting through Jesus and Muhammad since they are incredibly different (even directly opposed to one another) yet each one never acted contrary to God's will.

Profahoben_212Allah is the exact same God that Christians believe in....and the exact same God that Jews believe in....and the exact same God that Mormons believe on....and the exact same God that rastafarians believe in....just different messiahs

Kind of.. Jews, Christians, and mormons are the most similar. Jews are sort of stuck in the Old Testament, and mormons are basically an offshoot of Christianity; only difference is that they fudged a few things (which is a big deal, according to the Bible)... as for Muslims, their god is not at all like the God of Christianity.. and I'm not familiar with rastafarians

milk_manKind of.. Jews, Christians, and mormons are the most similar. Jews are sort of stuck in the Old Testament, and mormons are basically an offshoot of Christianity; only difference is that they fudged a few things (which is a big deal, according to the Bible)... as for Muslims, their god is not at all like the God of Christianity.. and I'm not familiar with rastafarians

He's not saying that they are all preaching the same thing, but just that the Gods are the same God, which is true. Each religion claims to have the right revealed (but different) truth. You're right that Allah does not behave the same way as the Christian God, but Muslims believe that they are the same God. They believe that Jesus was a prophet of God but he got the message wrong and that only Muhammad understood the message properly.

onenerdykidHe's not saying that they are all preaching the same thing, but just that the Gods are the same God, which is true. Each religion claims to have the right revealed (but different) truth. You're right that Allah does not behave the same way as the Christian God, but Muslims believe that they are the same God. They believe that Jesus was a prophet of God but he got the message wrong and that only Muhammad understood the message properly.

Yeah I've talked to muslims and they basically say that we are kinda right but not quite. They say it doesn't make any sense that our God is 3 in 1. I like muslims, they stand up for what they believe in unapologetically. But their version of God just isn't right. They're close, but not quite.

milk_manI like muslims, they stand up for what they believe in unapologetically. But their version of God just isn't right. They're close, but not quite.

You're making a claim about knowledge- to say that one God is right and another is wrong amounts to knowing the true nature of God. On what basis and evidence do you have to claim that their God isn't right? You have none- no one does. That's why it's called "faith".

SkiingBurgulari think that what ever you believe in, you see in the afterlife.

I don't believe this at all, but Terry Pratchet wrote a pretty good, and funny fiction book about death called "Mort" where everyone sees the same Death personified and then passes on to wherever they're supposed to be going. It's an entertaining read regardless of how aggressive you're getting in this thread. And it's Pratchet so there are layers.

And C.S. Lewis plays with a more nuanced level of a similar idea when he brings in Emeth in The Last Battle.

Lewis, as far as I can tell had a more developed view of purgatory than I do, more in line with the RC tradition, stuff that TWoods understands a lot better than I do.

All interesting stuff.

Also just posting because I'm having these conversations with a close friend, and it's really interesting to see all of your perspectives.

special-JI find it very hard to just accept that this ball of matter that exploded into the universe happened to randomly exist. What was before it?

Yeah I gotta agree with you on this one. Its super crazy to think that from nothing our universe just appeared. One moment nothing and then the next minute something. How could a ball of something simply appear in a void of nothing? Real talk, I know scientists/Atheists will always be poking holes in religion but until we can scientifically prove how and why our universe became something from nothing than I think its just as believable that some omnipotent being (God perhaps) created our universe. Thats just my opinion though.