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Calling All Atheists

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Olimar
Posts: 3535 - Karma: 4,070
***First off I just want to say im not trying to start a shit storm by any means although unfortunately, one is most likely imminent.

I just have a quick question for you. I'm a practicing Catholic. That being said, Im not some radical, fundamentalist that tries to shove religion or God down peoples throats. Please re-read that last statement before you try to post some smart comment. But any way, Im NOT a creationist. I believe in evolution and the big bang theory simply because evolution has been proven and the big bang theory is the most plausible explanation for how our universe came to exist. But my question for all the atheists that dont believe in any god at all, is how did that hot, microscopic ball of gasses and other matter come about? Once again, im just curious to hear how atheists explain this or if the majority of them believe in a different theory of how the universe first came about. Im not trying to push religion on any one.
Nov 15 2012 6:30PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
and yet we have the big bang theory.
Nov 18 2012 12:46AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
.....which is drawn from things we do know.

Do you actually know how the big bang theory originated?
Nov 18 2012 12:51AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
from little things coming together and creating the universe, the question is what came before that, and before that. no one knows something had to be there first and not be created but just there.
Nov 18 2012 12:53AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The big bang model explains the expansion and development of the universe from an extremely dense and hot state approximately 13.7 BYA. It does not try to explain how the universe came into existence, if that even happened.
Nov 18 2012 12:55AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
what about before that? go deeper, one who believes that time has no beginning like yourself, should be able to comprehend this, but perhaps im wrong.
Nov 18 2012 12:58AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
We don't know what happened before the big bang or even if there was a "before" the big bang. We might never know, even though we have several plausible hypothesis.

Perhaps there's an infinite cycle of big bang big crunch. Perhaps it was caused by some sort of black hole in a previous universe. Perhaps it was some inter dimensional string theory reaction. Perhaps Jesus clapped his hands three times and said "ABRA KADABRA!" Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

Founding a belief on something we do not know will get you nowhere.
Nov 18 2012 1:03AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
oh the irony
Nov 18 2012 1:05AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
1) We don't know that the universe "started" at all.
2) If it did, "where" it happened is obviously everywhere, by definition.
3) We don't know that there is a "why"
Nov 18 2012 1:05AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Explain the irony
Nov 18 2012 1:06AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
you claim to "know" or "prove" that god doesnt exist, and the origin of the universe, you have posted that you dont know when the universe started and claimed that "Founding a belief on something we do not know will get you nowhere" and yet... you still claim that you are right and know everything. so again oh the irony

Nov 18 2012 1:08AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
No I don't.

Nov 18 2012 1:11AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
you really do bro
Nov 18 2012 1:11AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Have you actually read anything I've written? I explicitly said that "Not all religious people are ignorant, but I do believe they are all wrong. All young earth creationists are ignorant."

I'm not interested in proving that some undefined entity doesn't exist. Once someone gives a more specific definition of god (like for example the god of the bible) then you can easily show they don't exist, but that's a separate question.
Nov 18 2012 1:14AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
I really don't at all. I believe that there is no evidence that a god does exist, I don't believe that there is definitive proof that god doesn't exist. Now, I believe that in light of the fact that there is no good evidence that god exists, it is reasonable to believe that god probably doesn't exist, but it's not possible to prove a negative.
Nov 18 2012 1:16AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
how the fuck does giving someone an exact definition of god show that he does not exist? that doesnt change everything, its a definition.
and you are very very very ^ 1000000000000000000 interested in proving that some "undefined entity" doesn't exist.
Nov 18 2012 1:16AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Science doesn't say that god doesn't exist, or that god does exist. Science is agnostic.
Nov 18 2012 1:17AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
there is historically, and to rebuttle you're scientific reasoning, proof that god and jesus exist's happened a few thousand years ago. and the scientific reasoning happened about what 13.7 billion years ago?
Nov 18 2012 1:20AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Once you give a specific definition of god we can form a logical argument and examine evidence to see if that entity exists, or even can exist. Most people's definition of god is too vague to prove either way, therefore there's no point in arguing about it with that definition.
Nov 18 2012 1:20AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
No there isn't. Jesus may have existed (or he may not have, the evidence is spotty) but there's no evidence at all to prove that he was god or that god exists.
Nov 18 2012 1:22AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
do we have a specific definition of gravity, what about the universe? or, what about atoms? something so small that you can only see there cloudy outline, and not the inside, or the actual atoms themselves. it is an everchanging thing.
Nov 18 2012 1:22AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Yes, I do believe they are wrong and I am right, but I am not "science." I'm just a person.
Nov 18 2012 1:23AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
yes there is, the new testament in the bible was actually rather historically accurate and coinsided with roman greek etc... timelines and records.
Nov 18 2012 1:25AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
still alot of irony
Nov 18 2012 1:25AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Is that a serious question? Yes, we have a specific definition for the force that attracts all bodies with mass towards each other in proportion to their mass and their distance from each other. In fact our definition is so specific, we can make highly accurate predictions about what gravity will do to objects before it does it!
Nov 18 2012 1:26AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
fine how about the universe? do we know how big it is, or what is within the entire universe? the biggest issue with people and god is that he is a physical thing that takes up space in the universe, that may or may not be true, we dont know,

im guessing that he is out of the universe and out of time himself, and we all have our own destinys or hopes that he gave to us, but because of our free will we can choose whether or not we meet what god hopes we become. (irrelevant but whatever)
Nov 18 2012 1:30AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
It's actually not


Nov 18 2012 1:33AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
it kinda did, there are records of jesus existing withing the roman civilization and recorded miracles.
Nov 18 2012 1:35AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Ummmmmm........wut?

Where did I say that individuals who believe in god are "religion?" What does that even mean?

I'm representing science on issues that science addresses, I do not claim to represent science on issues that science does not address. That of course makes no sense.

Caught up in semantics? You can't have a logical argument without specific coherent definitions, so semantics is fairly important. Logic without semantics is kind of like math without numbers.

What statement have I made that I haven't stuck to? Name one.
Nov 18 2012 1:36AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
We have several different definitions of "the universe."

For example, in modern scientific usage it means all the matter and energy that exists and all of the space-time in which that matter and energy exist. This is the thing that began expanding roughly 13.7 billion years ago. It is possible that there are more than one of these that exist independently of each other.

In a philosophical sense, "universe" generally means everything that ever existed anywhere at any time and in any form. Therefore it is impossible for this thing to have begun at some time, or for more than one to exist.


Nov 18 2012 1:41AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
but not one exact definition right? so then how can you have a "logical argument"? there is your statement you have not stuck up too btw. ;)
Nov 18 2012 1:44AM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
lol why did you quote me? just to reaffirm my statement?
Nov 18 2012 1:44AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
There are sloppy records that aren't very convincing, just as there are records of many things that probably didn't happen. The gospels weren't even written until more than a generation after the supposed events took place.

Jesus may have existed, but his existence no more proves the truth of christianity than Muhammad's existence proves the truth of Islam, or Joseph Smith's various writings prove the truth of Mormonism. Joseph smith even has 10 people who claim to have seen the golden plates, but that's not all that convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe.
Nov 18 2012 1:48AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
no he didn't he said people who believe in god are wrong and he doesn't know who is right.
Nov 18 2012 1:49AM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
ok cool Joseph Smith was also a person doesn't mean he actually is who he says he is. 2000 year old writing is not proof that miracles happened. it means that people claimed they happened then wrote them down on paper.
Nov 18 2012 1:54AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
oh no a generation D: your trying to argue about something 13.7 billion years ago and your whining about a generation.
Nov 18 2012 1:55AM
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.AR6rider.
Posts: 15976 - Karma: 8,799

I'm torn. I can't tell which is more hilarious: the absolutely batshit retarded posts by Roddy in god vs. atheism threads, or the absolutely batshit retarded posts by Roddy in abortion threads. This kid is heroically stupid haha.

Nov 18 2012 1:56AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
You're going somewhere past full retard that I didn't know existed.

Yes, I don't believe that god exists. It logically follows from that that I believe that people who believe god does exist are wrong.

I'm not sure where I ever backed away from that.

I do not claim that science proves god doesn't exist. Science can and does show that the biblical account of history is wrong, but that's a different question. Some type of "god" could still exist. I believe (and am totally willing and able to defend this belief) that there is no good evidence or logical argument to show that god exists, and therefore I think it makes sense to say that god probably doesn't exist. I don't claim to be able to prove to a certainty that some form of "god" doesn't exist, and no one ever could, it's impossible. It does not follow that therefore belief in god and non belief in god are equally rational, because it's impossible to prove a negative and no one actually goes around believing everything that can't be disproven. Do we live in the Matrix? You can't disprove it, therefore believing it and not believing it must be equally valid. No one actually thinks that way, and no one should. There is a small chance that we might live in the Matrix, but there's no evidence that we do therefore it makes sense to say we probably do not live in the Matrix.

Science is a very good method at knowing things that it can be applied to. It is obviously not a very good method for knowing things it can not be applied to (like any unfalsifiable claim). It's makes no sense to somehow equate science and religion when one has shown that it is an excellent way of knowing things and one has shown that it is not a very good way of knowing things, and applies itself primarily to things that might not even be knowable anyway.

I'm going to sleep.
Nov 18 2012 1:57AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
ur just butthurt cause you cant win any of those now leave with thread with the little dignity that you have.
Nov 18 2012 2:00AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
lol
Nov 18 2012 2:03AM
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.AR6rider.
Posts: 15976 - Karma: 8,799
My point has just been proven.
Nov 18 2012 2:07AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
you havent proved any point, you never prove any point for any matter.
Nov 18 2012 2:08AM
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.AR6rider.
Posts: 15976 - Karma: 8,799
Tell me how you really feel.
Nov 18 2012 2:09AM
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HWW
Posts: 3084 - Karma: 3,436
You are saying that there is evidence that says Jesus (if he existed) was god.

Why back religion with evidence, when that is completely the opposite of what religion is founded on?
Nov 18 2012 8:30AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
i never said that, i said that there waas evidence he existed and performed miracles, whether or not he was god, or god's son is up for debate.
back religion with evidence? dafuck are you talking about?
Nov 18 2012 10:20AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
If I were claiming to know the direct quotes and the life story of someone that lived 13.7 billion years ago you might have a point. However, I'm not, so you don't.

PLease stop trying to argue that the big bang didn't happen. That argument ended 50 years ago when astronomers found this.

Click for larger image
Nov 18 2012 10:58AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
and yet you do claim to know. and im not arguing that the big bang didnt happen, im pointing out that you think you know the answers to everything, and you in reality you do not.
Nov 18 2012 11:07AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
I don't think I know everything, or claim to know everything. In fact on the last page I very explicitly said that I don not know what happened before the big bang or even if there was a before the big bang, and neither does everyone else. However, the fact that we do not know everything does not mean that we don't know anything, and one of the things we do know (to a great degree of certainty) is that there was a cosmic inflation ~13.7 billion years ago.
Nov 18 2012 11:10AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
and yet you claim the other side is totally wrong? so by normal logic the other one is right, or your stupid. and there has to be a before big bang because time never stops or begins.
Nov 18 2012 11:14AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
ill take a seat here while you try to rebuttle, i just need a reason to post this.
Click for larger image
Nov 18 2012 11:45AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
You have to define "the other side" before I can determine if I think they're right or wrong. Is the other side young earth creationists? Yes, they're totally wrong. Is the other side someone who agrees with all the science but says that god is behind it? Well I think that person is wrong, but can't prove it, they just haven't proven their proposition. So they're not "totally" wrong, they just haven't shown evidence of what they're claiming.

As for time never stopping or beginning, that's quite possibly wrong. Physics tells us that space and time are inextricably linked and actually exist as a single entity called spacetime, and it appears that this very entity was itself "created" at the time of the big bang. The current theory can only go back to 10^-43 seconds after the big bang, before that current physical models fall apart so we can't say what happened. It's possible that we will never know what happened before this, since the universe was so dense that the laws of causality may not even work. It's actually possible that nothing that happened before this had any causal relationship with anything that happened after this.
Nov 18 2012 11:46AM
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