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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
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A simple, yet powerful analogy.

Checkmate.
Jan 24 2012 10:26PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
lol what the fuck is a "genocide" of religion. Do you know what genocide means?

And religion is already becoming obsolete with furious speed in Northern Europe, it's already happening. Although how we'll deal with Islam will be a completely different matter than any other major religion.
Jan 26 2012 4:16AM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
but thats a totally different point. thats not science, thats what physically exists. i dont think any religious person would refute that plants require sunlight to grow and its not some heavenly miracle that creates pretty flowers, or that gravity is a force that all masses possess, it's just when it comes down to explaining the unexplainable; scientists do it with theories based on the physical realm where religious people base it off of some higher power. atheist sees coincidence, religious person sees providence.
Jan 26 2012 4:17AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
I do know what genocide means and i'm aware that it doesn't work in this situation but you know what I mean, just like how i know what you mean and I'm not picking apart every little thing you say. I like how I'm trying to be civil and have a discussion and you're bashing me
Jan 26 2012 4:19AM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
yeah but nobody has any idea of why that has to be in a cycle that coincidentally follows the cycles of day and night. and it's not like our brains shut off when we're asleep. they're still fully functional. the fact that we need to lose consciousness to feel "rested" is beyond anyone's knowledge. it's not about the resting of muscles or relaxation or anything like that. why do you have to lose consciousness for a set amount of time in a regular cycle to avoid dying? nobody knows the answer to that. it's completely inexplicable.
Jan 26 2012 4:21AM
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.AR6rider.
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Totally not science!
Jan 26 2012 4:21AM
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Aidan-G
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Actually he said it was science
Jan 26 2012 4:22AM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
Well, I just read every single word I replied to you, and there was no "bashing" at all. So I don't know what you're talking about.

I actually don't understand your stance on the issue, you say you are against religion, but keep pestering me as to why I think organized religion is not a good thing when I've stated why multiple times in this thread, since page one.
Jan 26 2012 4:24AM
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.AR6rider.
Posts: 15976 - Karma: 8,799
^^ for the guy above me.
Jan 26 2012 4:24AM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
This isn't a competition. And even if god was proven to exist, how would that make religion greater than science? You're making it sound like if gods existence is proven, he was causing that baseball to fall into my hand all along.
Jan 26 2012 4:28AM
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.AR6rider.
Posts: 15976 - Karma: 8,799
No. Fuck you.
Jan 26 2012 4:31AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
Here is my stance: Religion is not inherently bad. Fanatics and people who can't realize that religious teachings from some 2000 odd years ago are outdated are bad. They take religion too far and those people I dislike very much. Religion taken as a loose moral code is not bad. The occasional church goer is not bad. The fanatic that takes religious text as law is bad. Religion that doesn't take itself too seriously is bad. Religion that focuses more on the teachings rather than the teacher is not bad. The church that I go to every once in a while focused more on being a good person as governed by common sense, not the bible, and less on God. I am a firm believer in science. I am a biochemistry major with a minor in biology. I do believe that religion can work alongside of science. That is where I stand
Jan 26 2012 4:35AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
But if god existed wouldn't he be the one causing it to fall into your hand being the omnipotent creator he supposedly is?
Jan 26 2012 4:40AM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
That's pretty much the level of response i expected from you. My question still stands if you feel like being serious for a second.
Jan 26 2012 4:46AM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
yeah i dont know it seems that you cant be an atheist unless you let everyone else know youre an atheist and that everyone elses beliefs are wrong. it's like those rich preppy chicks in high school. they can't just be quietly rich and glamorous, they gotta flaunt it and belittle everyone with that stuck up sense of dbag arrogance.

i look at it this way

is it possible that there is nothing after death, is it possible there is no soul, no divine power, no providence, we're all just here by some coincidence and that's the end of it? yes.

is it possible that there is more to the existence of life than meets the eye? yes.

call me whatever the fuck you want, i just see it is as: i dont have all the answers, nobody does, so i like to keep an open mind. i can value that lots of people seek comfort in believing things are a certain way, whether that be for science explaining shit, or the bible explaining shit. power to you if you find comfort in death because you truly believe you're going to heaven. power to you if you live your life as a good person because you believe that virtue is rewarded in some way or another. i see no problem with that.

problems with religious fanatics who kill you because the voice in their heads tells them to do so? yes. but crazy people are everywhere. it's unfair to say that because he's religious and crazy, it must be the religion that made him crazy. noo, some people are just nuts. there's no rationale behind it. if people believe that earthquakes are cause by god shaking the earth, they can go fuck themselves and read a 6th grade geology textbook. or google plate tectonics or something. but that's beside the point. obvious physics is obvious.


any wayyy im tired as shit. 4:40 and i gotta get up at 8:00.


just go believe in your own shit and be happy.
Jan 26 2012 4:46AM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
That's a question for a Christian.
Jan 26 2012 4:49AM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Well said
Jan 26 2012 4:50AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
I'll answer it. If God does exist that means he created everything, including the concept of science. That is how proving God exists would make religion > science
Jan 26 2012 4:50AM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Never looked at it that way, guess that makes sense though. Separate question - why would god create a concept that somewhat centers around laws and theories that defy his work and his very existence? I mean, i think that's pretty fucking stupid and a little bit selfish, but if he want's to take the credit for that, all power to him..
Jan 26 2012 5:06AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
I like to think that god created everything but gave the universe the tools to take care of itself like evolution and such. As for creating a concept that defies his existence, innovation doesn't come from complacent people or people who are in agreement with each other. Differences in religion has spurred some of the greatest inventions in history, such as the technological advances during the crusades
Jan 26 2012 5:12AM
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HolySchimmel
Posts: 1601 - Karma: 1,297
I think of "god" as some young, huge alien child that plays with the world like we do with one of these small ant farms you can buy (the ones where you can see how they build their hive, feed their larva etc.)

Prove to me that I am wrong :D

My point is, that everyone can believe whatever he chooses to believe (think this was said often enough now...)

But one more example:
Lets think of some farmer in a small ass town. He will probably never leave his town because he is poor. The farthest he will ge away from his farm is to go to the next bigger city (lets say about 50km away) to go shopping. Never in his life he will go anywhere else.
Now this man could totally believe that the earth is flat. How would you prove to him that that isnt true? And even if you would show him a globe or something else that shows him the earth in fact isnt flat, what would it matter for him? In his small "world", the earth is still flat and he wont experience anything else. I think it is kinda the same with god or science. Noone believes exactly the same. Are they wrong because of that? No of course not! What every single person believes in is obviously right for that person in that very moment. Of course what you believe in changes from time to time and thats totally ok. There is no "right" thing everyone has to believe in.

And it is totally senseless to discuss if science > religion or otherwise. Everyone has to decide for themselves. I choose science, but I dont hate on people who choose religion over science, nor do I try to convince them that they are "wrong", because I dont think it is my right to do that.
Jan 26 2012 6:32AM
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.Tom.
Posts: 1176 - Karma: 910
And my response to this stand point (which seems to be favoured by so many people in this thread) is this:

"Either the thing is true, or it isn’t. If it is true, you should believe it, and if it isn’t, you shouldn’t. And if you can’t find out whether it’s true or whether it isn’t, you should suspend judgment. But you can’t... it seems to me a fundamental dishonesty and a fundamental treachery to intellectual integrity to hold a belief because you think it’s useful, and not because you think it’s true."

Second time i've posted it but it seems to simple and straight forward.
Jan 26 2012 7:42AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51264 - Karma: 157,468
lolol
Jan 26 2012 8:17AM
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ChocolateMilk.
Posts: 1129 - Karma: 220
You kind of challenged NS when you said "checkmate" in you're original post.
Therefore it is a competition.
Jan 26 2012 8:38AM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
I think the main problem with this debate is that to be in either camp it takes a certain amount of hope/faith or whatever you want to call it. Christians of course, have little physical proof to our faith, (thats kind of the point) and evolutionists, (though I'm sure some of you will argue this) do not have solid evidence of their theory, (perhaps bits and pieces of "proof" but no writing on the wall as of yet.) As a result both sides just argue back and forth with no one set piece of fact that can put the other side in checkmate, which is why this is such a raging argument, and is almost useless to debate on the internet, mabeye in person these things can be discussed intelligentelly, but on NS nothing positive ever comes of these threads.
Jan 26 2012 9:21AM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
The fact is neither side can prove the other side wrong to the point where one side is clearly the winner and everyone agrees, at least not yet.
Jan 26 2012 9:23AM
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jsitt
Posts: 27 - Karma: 10
Yes you are exactly correct, evolution and natural selection are very real. However, if you look at the Bible's story of creation, and the current accepted theories of the big bang and evolution, they are really telling the same story. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." (Gensis 1:1). The Big Bang theory essentially states that there was nothing, then there was everything. As the days of creation are told, life starts in the ocean, then land creatures are created, and finally man. The theory of evolution states that life began in the oceans, moved on to land, and man came much after. "Man was created in God's image." (Genesis 1:27). This doesnt mean God is white, black, hispanic, arab or asian. It means that he gave man a soul, sperating them from the rest of the animals on earth. In 2 Peter 3:8 it states that to God, "A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is a day." So no, the Earth was not created in six literal days, but rather over the billions of years that science tells us is correct. Which is more impressive to you, a God that can create a bunch of creatures, or a God that can create a few creatures that have the ability to evolve to fit their habit and needs. Pretty cool. If you take the time to study the Bible, and science, you will find them both fascinating, and that it is actually the same story.
Jan 26 2012 10:49AM
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B.Aussie
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haha holy shit that was good.
Jan 26 2012 10:49AM
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Mike-O
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Jan 26 2012 10:55AM
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Randy_Quench
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fail.
Jan 26 2012 11:01AM
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TechnoPotamus
Posts: 11626 - Karma: 3,522
As a very passionate person who is against religion, I can honestly say that your response is one of the very few I've read that is intelligent and what I would certainly call fair.
Jan 26 2012 11:03AM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
So are you saying that there was millions of years of death and destruction, that God called "all good," before Adam and Eve sinned? If the world was perfect before adam and eve sinned then how cam you rationalize the chaos and "dog eat dog" world that that is proposed by the evolutionary theory? Millions of years of death and destruction in a perfect world without sin doesn't really make sense to me.
Jan 26 2012 11:22AM
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Aidan-G
Posts: 9411 - Karma: 10,798
Thank you. Let me say that I would hardly consider myself religious. I haven't been to a church service in well over a year and the only reason I used to go was because I ran the powerpoint presentation and could pass it off as easy community service hours for school. I acknowledge that the chance of a God existing is very slim but what I don't understand about atheists is their view on life after death. I realize that it is highly unlikely but why would you want there to not be life after death? Even if it's not "Heaven" I don't understand why some seem to hope that there is no life after death
Jan 26 2012 12:59PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
ohh the irony.
Jan 26 2012 1:36PM
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-ROY-
Posts: 3633 - Karma: 1,503
omg
Jan 26 2012 2:34PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i can speak for myself and say that no matter how much i want to have this place at the end of the way where i can meet all of my friends and family and enjoy eternity with them, i cant convince myself to believe in such a place.

Jan 26 2012 2:47PM
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Aidan-G
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And I can respect that because at least you want it. I've met people who say they want nothing after death
Jan 26 2012 2:53PM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
This is the attitude that makes no sense to me.

Why can't we call each other out? Isn't this how we progress as a civilization?
Jan 26 2012 3:29PM
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uosdwiSrjewoH
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i dunno, maybe relevant here
Jan 26 2012 3:45PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
very relevant
Jan 26 2012 5:38PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Excuse me what. Is that view on the bible shared by the entire christian community? No, that was YOUR interpretation of it, just like how the bible is a blurry interpretation in itself. Even if these new found parallels are true, you're telling me the earth up until mans existence took only 6000 years to create?
Jan 26 2012 5:44PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Pressed reply instead of preview. As i was saying, if they are both the same story, then that is a fucking contradictory and wild story if ive ever heard one. Please don't burden science with fairy tales to try and give the bible validity.
Jan 26 2012 5:50PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
I was just trawling. There's actually some decent discussion going on now though, so this is me being serious.
Jan 26 2012 5:54PM
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ButteredToast.
Posts: 6459 - Karma: 2,570
I'll be honest I thought this was a load of shit but I'm listening to it in the library right now and I do feel a bit dizzy.

Maybe I'll give it a whirl when I sleep tonight.
Jan 26 2012 8:46PM
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.SHAGGY.
Posts: 1068 - Karma: 3,279
Stupid christians and their being stupid
Jan 26 2012 9:25PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
Solid contribution
Jan 26 2012 9:27PM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565

Y'all need to read some postmodernist theory and realize that God=science in the fact that they are both just stories created by humans about why things are the way they are. Calling a phenomenon "gravity" to describe the force that pulls a ball towards the earth is not too far off from calling it God. Science is the new religion. In the end they can both be put to terrible uses and also be incredibly shortsighted.

Really, there is emptiness, and we create meaning  by saying "this is this thing" and "that is that thing". The stories keep changing, but really, that's all they are....stories.

Jan 26 2012 9:40PM
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las.
Posts: 1959 - Karma: 1,455
So the concept of science is a by-product of man then, not god? If a family provides funding for builders to build them a house, that doesn't mean the family built the house. As for the crusades, the only part religion can take credit for is creating the war itself, which enabled trade routes to open to the East.
Jan 26 2012 9:41PM
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ChocolateMilk.
Posts: 1129 - Karma: 220
This is one of the more impressive troll threads, At first i thought you were denying starting this but now i understand and yeah some interesting discussion is happening.
Jan 26 2012 9:57PM
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jayo.
Posts: 5015 - Karma: 34
Christians 0 Atheists 0

Same as it always will be
Jan 26 2012 10:24PM
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cow.
Posts: 416 - Karma: 200
um, the basis of science is that something needs to be proved to be accepted by the scientific community. all of it. and if they aren't sure, they'll tell you.

and science is not limited to immediate sensory input. cell biology, quantum physics, almost all of chemistry. all of these are decently understood at an atomic level.

and there would be no atomic level if we were so limited.



so prove god exists, or at least admit it's not for certain.
Jan 26 2012 10:26PM
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