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Cops shooting a guy outside a carls jr.

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theabortionator
Posts: 51264 - Karma: 157,480
Jan 24 2012 6:03AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
as i said on page 1 i've had a chance of working with a military dog handler this summer and believe me, you're going down...
in a real scenario where you don't expect the dog to charge or you haven't been attacked by a dog before you're simply going to be overpowered, if theres suddenly a 70lbs/35kg dog hanging on your arm you aren't going to do much about it ...

the first couple of times i got attacked in the protective suit i got slammed to the ground, i didn't expect it to be that rough ...

the dog handler i worked with has trained/worked with most of the police/military dogs in belgium and he said in real scenarios it's not all that uncommon that a dog breaks an arm of the victim ...



Jan 24 2012 1:22PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
You still argue that it was better to have shot the guy to death, rather than to shot him in the leg so he could have possibly sued and won, hmm?

You sure have a misconstrued way to line up words in a sentence as to seem like you are in stark opposition of what I'm going for. I've already said that I, or anyone else here, wasn't there and doesn't know exactly what went down, but those officers used unnecessary force, seemed to completely disregard any training in close-quarter situations they've ever had, disregarded the fact that they have a trained attack dog to nullify the perp with (or maybe it was just some random dog they took out for a walk and happened on the scene, who knows) and they fired not one, not two, but ten fucking times on a person whose reach with the weapon was not enough to hit the cops, who turned around and stopped his movement or hostility against the officers before he was shot and who had, while a bit mad, done nothing at all to deserve a swiftly served death sentence.

I'm not on any 'high horse', this is a discussion.
Jan 24 2012 1:23PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
they are all trained just about exactly the same. military dogs are trained differently than police dogs but police dogs are all trained around the same guidelines.

I have had 2 level 3 german shepherds I know what they can do.
Jan 24 2012 1:24PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
the weirdest thing about this vid is imho the dog handler, wtf is he 1 hand wielding a gun with bystanders near...
Jan 24 2012 1:25PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
i was hating on the cops and reporter not you.
Jan 24 2012 1:25PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Oh I know they can fuck you up and it probably would have mauled the guy. But The dog is an "officer" too and by the sounds of the back story shooting him was more than justified and was probably the smartest response. Good shoot
Jan 24 2012 1:25PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
i somewhat agree with this, the only thing that scares me is the lack of fire discipline .....
Jan 24 2012 1:26PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
QFE
Jan 24 2012 1:26PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
I also thought this was odd.
Jan 24 2012 1:27PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
i'm not going to respond to you with any explanation of my knowledge, the writing is on the wall my friend.
Jan 24 2012 1:27PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Shooting in the leg is not justifiable use of deadly force it pretty much shows you didn't feel at risk for your life and made a calculated decision to wound not kill. Both my family friend a 20yr SGT and my concealed carry trainer both made this extremely clear. It's not a justified shoot if you don't fear for your life and shooting to wound has been used in court countless times to make this point
Jan 24 2012 1:28PM
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.Ian.
Posts: 1568 - Karma: 71
Oh okay, sorry I misread it my bad man.
I definitely agree with you though, they could've done so many different things in that situation with a better outcome I think.
+k too man.
Jan 24 2012 1:29PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,296
I argue that from a police officers perspective, not my own, that's something we should get straightened out right now so as to keep from getting verbally abused by someone that thinks his side is always the right side.

There have been plenty of arguments in this thread that clearly explain some of the this mentioned above.

I am bringing up reasons why I THINK the officer did not release his dog.

I am bringing up reasons why I THINK the officer chose to shoot the man in the torso opposed to his leg.

My god, if you took the time to read my other posts instead of singling out just one you would have seen that I believe what the officers did was wrong.

And for the record, I believe anyone that verbally bashes someone who's views differ from their own is on a high horse.
Jan 24 2012 1:31PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
you needed a concealed carry trainer lol thats scary... you probably shouldnt conceal a weapon if you needed a trainer.

maybe you live in some dumb state that forces you to go through training before getting a concealed weapons permit.

either way you are correct here. you never shoot to injure, you shoot to kill. every cop is taught this. that shoot the guy in the leg shit is hollywood bullshit.
Jan 24 2012 1:31PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
as i said earlier, other countries have other standards regarding that matter. i was explicitly told to aim at non-vital parts in guard-training.

but if its like that in the US (which i think is fucked up) than this whole leg-thingy should leave the argument right naow.
Jan 24 2012 1:32PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Wtf are you talking about? I took a godamn pistol class based on urban application, drawing, clearing jams with wounds and technique with someone who actually knows what he's talking about instead of just diddling around at the range and pretending I know shit about shooting from cover etc. anyone who doesn't advocate getting really training is just stupid. It makes you better no questions asked and you learn a ton about how to respond after a shooting
Jan 24 2012 1:36PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
I should clarify. This was not one of those gay state required classes that doesn't teach you shit. This was a 1000rd. 2 day class with a pro. And I live in a must-issue state. No training required
Jan 24 2012 1:37PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
I've read every single one of your posts, but you have to understand that we are still not completely on the same page, as to why I keep asking you and arguing about these facts.

But I'm sorry if I insulted you or called you an idiot, it's hard to keep civil with an emotional subject.
Jan 24 2012 1:42PM
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henrytargett
Posts: 903 - Karma: 35
My opinionz

Cops: good move.
if you don't do what the officer says, then be prepared to get fucked by the long dick of the law. People need to know this, and unfortunately it might mean someone getting shot 7 times in a parking lot but come on he had a weapon and was not obeying orders. Looked pretty damn dangerous as well. People in this country have developed a general disregard for the law and for the authority of the police (partially because a lot of our laws are stupid, but thats beside the point) and officers like that one clearly aren't standing for it.

What surprised me was the people filming that shit and their comments/reaction. I mean if i saw a guy with an axe get shot 7 times right fuckin in front of me i would not have been like DAYUMM HE GOT ROCKED!!! I would have probably thrown up honestly
Jan 24 2012 1:42PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
i'm quite positive these guys were baked out of their minds ....
Jan 24 2012 1:43PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
so since you are sooo trained can we have a shoot off??

leave the baby 9mm you bought at home though, thats vermin shit.
Jan 24 2012 1:43PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,296
Apology accepted. Hopefully we are more on the same page now.
Jan 24 2012 1:44PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
If you listen to the whole video, one of the guys starts crying when they realize the guy was shot with real bullets instead of rubber stuff. As the original poster also states, he thought it was just riot bullets.
Jan 24 2012 1:44PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Yup good shoot all the way around. Especially keeping in perspective that some on this website probably wouldn't sanction deadly force for half of the situations it's required in. People who live above the fray find it easy to shit on cops and offer their own version of how it could have gone down. But in the end they don't know shit and havnt been there or done that
Jan 24 2012 1:46PM
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big_mac_005
Posts: 78 - Karma: 12
This. Anyone holding a weapon who charges at a police officer who already has his gun out is going to get shot. If this guy didn't think he'd be shot than he's just a dumbass. bad shit happens when u make stupid decisions
Jan 24 2012 1:47PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
2 days? lol as I said before, if you get in a gun fight that 2days is going to go right out the window. its going to be all adrenaline and instincts.

im sorry but you dont learn instincts in 2 days especially when its has something to do with a life or death situation.

either way you can probably hit a 6in plate from 10 feet away now.
Jan 24 2012 1:48PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
Just to clarify, where are you from? Are you a police officer in the fray? Have you been in a similar situation?

I just want to know what makes your opinion, knowledge and take on the situation better than others.
Jan 24 2012 1:52PM
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627

You must have your good eye up your ass.  NOT EVEN CLOSE LAWTARD. 

1).  That was a completely controlled exercise.  People were joking and laughing for fuck's sake.  Nothing like the original video.    

2).  The guy with the pipe bender never went for the cop with the dog either.  Oh wait, that isn't anything like the video you posted either. 

3).  It takes a second or two to make the decision and let the dog off the leash if they're not coming to you as displayed in your video, and when someone is swinging a weapon at your partner, those are seconds you unfortunately might not have the luxury of using to make the best decision.  Also not shown in the video you provided, as he never let the dog go either.       

You guys try to make it sound like cops are bloodthirsty thugs just looking for people to shoot all day.  God that is so fucking ignorant.  Why is it that you pissant breastfeeders can't get it through your heads that when you attack a person who has a gun drawn, you are likely going to be shot no matter what country you're in?  Cop or civilian, you just don't do it if you plan on staying bullett hole-free.  It's common sense really.  Grow the fuck up and stop just insulting each other because you can't articulate yourself or argue an actual point revolving around common sense OR read details that might explain to you why this unfortunately escalated the way it did.  Not one of you twatburgulars has even been in anything even remotely resembling the severity of this situation, yet you feel the need to talk shit about the guy as if you're a fucking veteran expert, then throw in your asinine ramblings including stereotypes of his country and whatever other bug you've been storing up your ass you now feel like venting.  Lol indeed.   

I mean, this is almost too easy.  It's like arguing about art with Helen Keller.  Please try harder gentlemen.       

Jan 24 2012 1:52PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Didn't claim to learn instinct. I learned fundamental to practice weekly on my own and I learn logistics in case I ever have to call the police and report a self defense shooting. Not to mention I got to shoot on a range with walls, cover and cars etc which was a new experience that really opened my eyes to complexity of shooting in an urban environment Either way you sound like you have some experience shooting by your bravado what kind of training do you have? Are you really knocking taking a pistol class? I'm taking a carbine / pistol class next where i will learn how to transition and use a primary and sidearm effectively together with my AR is that stupid too? And a 6inch plate from 10 ft. Please... I could do that at 20+ within a week of getting my HK
Jan 24 2012 1:52PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
explain to my you think the cop with the dog shouldnt have let the dog go right when the guy walked out of the door or at least when the guy started moving at the other officer?

btw I have no problem with the police or anyone thats life is in danger shooting people.
Jan 24 2012 1:54PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
I'm not the one on the Internet offering my version of a solution.. I don't preport to have a better one then the police and I was simply making the point that it's easy to criticize from the sidelines when you have no training and don't work in constant fear for your life
Jan 24 2012 1:55PM
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hey-dude-its-me
Posts: 4238 - Karma: 412
hardcore
Jan 24 2012 1:57PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
noone said that the dude was einstein, but the cops looked like amateurs, like from those lame private security companies that are hired for festivals and shit.

they made enough mistakes to put themselves in a situation where shit hit the fan.

if the cop let the fucking dog sit in the car and held the gun with both hands, it wouldnt look as bad.

if the pepper-spray-cop wasnt so obsessed with packing his pepperspray in the right pocket and doing whatever took him so long without looking at the criminal, it wouldnt look as bad.

if both kept a safe distance and didnt approach him, it wouldnt look as bad. i mean, what are they approaching him for?

the actual shots, that was just panicking at its finest, but to put yourself in this situation was the main mistake and they have to go to jail for that. there are people all over the fucking place and you cant handle a weapon like this in such a situation.





Jan 24 2012 1:58PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,296
Someone said in the video that one of the cops was a rookie or it was his first time out. Makes more sense the way the situation went down now.
Jan 24 2012 2:00PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
You believe the cops should go to jail?? Are you fucking serious. It's one thing cry excessive use of force. But jail? Good lord
Jan 24 2012 2:00PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
Well, the one who shot him should at least go to trial for manslaughter, yes.

Jan 24 2012 2:01PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
not stupid at all, you should know that you probably would want to use that AR of yours at 20 feet and keep that HK for when you get up close and personal.

I have been shooting since I could hold a gun.

US Junior Olympic Shooting Team and the United States Army Marksmanship Unit is where I have gotten some training in different disciplines.

my weapon of choice is my Les Baer Custom AR. If you know about accuracy and assault rifles you will know about that weapon.
Jan 24 2012 2:04PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
on a more personal note, I would rather watch my dog rip someone into pieces than shoot them in the chest 10 times.

if the guy had a gun and was aiming at me yes I would fucking take him down.

the 2 german shepherds I have owned I know without a doubt would have fuckin murdered that dude.
Jan 24 2012 2:06PM
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belden...
Posts: 2914 - Karma: 1,273
how is this up on youtube?
Jan 24 2012 2:09PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
you sound like stupidity is a valid reason to be shot in general.

why did he have the fucking dog with him in the first place? according to you, you cant use him when shit hits the fan, but still he chose to enter the extended striking range of the pipe bender.

after the shots you saw another police car approach the scene. that makes 4 officers + the officers in the arriving car. seriously, that is a controlled situation anywhere in the world, especially given the fact that its in a parking lot with fences all over the place.

and please look at the video again. he "charged". stopped. *awkward silence* (and enough time to think about shooting once again) BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. *awkward silence*. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM



Jan 24 2012 2:10PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
US Army Marksman is impressive. And Les Baer makes some gorgeous guns I want a 10mm custom 1911 from him as a safe queen. I have never shot his ARs. But I can imagine their dope. I currently have a Noveske 14.5inch upper on a Tac. Inovations multi cal lower and Knights Arm rails.
Jan 24 2012 2:13PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
just for some giggles

Jan 24 2012 2:14PM
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.Apex.
Posts: 2097 - Karma: 1,556
I agree he didn't need to be shot, but he's fucking stupid for approaching the officer like that with a weapon.
Jan 24 2012 2:15PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Woah... Mah babbby didn't do nutttin
Jan 24 2012 2:16PM
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anomalous
Posts: 87 - Karma: 15
It takes the average human 8-10 seconds to drop from a gunshot wound.

Was a seven round sequence necessary? In reality, probably not, but I wouldn't take the chance either.

The bottom line in this situation is the man was wielding a deadly weapon acting irrationally and he moved quickly and unsuspectingly around police officers who were aiming firearms at him and employing the use of an attack dog.

Those cops have families to go home to at night.


Jan 24 2012 2:16PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
Source? What caliber? What Range? FMJ or JHP ammo? On drugs or not? Hit in what part of the body? If the guys dead does it really matter how many projectiles got him there?
Jan 24 2012 2:17PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i think we all can agree on that
Jan 24 2012 2:17PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,168
guns and shit yo
Jan 24 2012 2:18PM
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sherwood4099
Posts: 1173 - Karma: 22
No I... He deserved it
Jan 24 2012 2:19PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
I would turn around and act like I was going to hit someone too if they shot me in the fucking cheek with a taser!
Jan 24 2012 2:20PM
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