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If these were your skis, would you accept this (incorrect?) mounting of Look Pivot 14s? w/ PHOTOS

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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
I dropped off my skis+bindings at a ski shop last Thursday and just picked them up (Tues. morning), having paid $50 to have them mounted. They are Armada Halo skis (in 182cm) and Look Pivot 14 Wide bindings.

To my eye (see for yourself below), both mountings are off center by 2mm. In particular, both the left and right binding are closer to the right edge of each ski by 2mm (i.e., they are both right justified, slightly).

This is the second time this has happened to me, although the last time it was much worse, and the shop replaced my skis without my even having to ask (though I did have to point it out). This time around, I talked with the techs beforehand and asked them to be careful with the spacers. Perhaps I'm hypersensitive, but that's where you come in... I'd really appreciate hearing a range of opinions!

My questions are:

1. what should I do?
2. what level of accuracy should I have expected? 2mm? 1mm? .5mm? I would have wanted .5mm ideally.
3. does the Look binding rig support this level of accuracy or is there always some slack? (I'm guessing not, because both bindings are mounted identically, right-justified, so I'm guessing it's operator error).

4. should I get my money back? new skis? (excuse me if that sound ridiculous... just asking)

5. what would Look say? would Look say this is within tolerated accuracy?

6. FINALLY, note that these skis are for the park only. will this error have any effect? (The toe pieces are similarly shifted over, and so I think the binding integrity is fine.) (If I were a downhill racer, I would have probably demanded my money back right then and there, but I recognize that it may not be a big deal.)


(TOP PICTURE)
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(FRONT, OUTER EDGE)
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(TOP, OUTER EDGE)
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(FRONT, INNER EDGE)
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(TOP, INNER EDGE)
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14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
I realize that it would be easier to see the difference if the two front photos are put next to each other.

(OUTER)
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(INNER)
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14 years ago
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Bloc_chain
Posts: 26051 - Karma: 4,433
you'll be fine, you won't even notice it when skiing
14 years ago
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LivinOuttaBounZ
Posts: 949 - Karma: 382
what shop?
14 years ago
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SkiTheYeast
Posts: 2310 - Karma: 391
like said above youll be fine you wont notice it. i free hand mounted my skis and they are so off center i dont even notice it
14 years ago
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
2mm difference means they're off-center by 1mm. Just ride them.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
The consensus suggests that this won't be an issue, which is actually good news. I'm not looking to make something out of nothing, I just don't know what I should expect.

As for 2mm difference=1mm off center, I already made that correction. They need to be moved 2mm towards the center to correct the error.
14 years ago
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25444 - Karma: 13,856
Skis, bindings and jigs are not built with those kind of tolerances and errors in mind. Its fine.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
That said... there's still the question of what I should expect from a ski shop.

Is getting the horizontal position of the binding off by 2mm acceptable for a $50 mounting job?

Perhaps skiing won't be affected very much (as people have argued above anecdotally), but could someone with knowledge of Look certification tell me whether this is within acceptable margins?

Click for larger image
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
That's good to know. Thanks.
14 years ago
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
There is definitely a line when a mistake like that would be worth taking back and fixing, but that error is definitely small enough to not matter at all.
14 years ago
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lucas569
Posts: 526 - Karma: 14
dude youll be fine
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
OK, you guys have definitely put me at ease. Thanks. I feel comfortable riding these skis.

But no one has commented as to whether I should expect more for $50. Or whether they should have maybe given me a $5 coupon or something.
14 years ago
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
Eh I guess it could be worth asking. Just go in and talk to them about it. That's the only way to find out.
14 years ago
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lucas569
Posts: 526 - Karma: 14
http://www.one4theotherthumb.com/images/stories/facepalm.jpg
14 years ago
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lucas569
Posts: 526 - Karma: 14
....
14 years ago
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lucas569
Posts: 526 - Karma: 14
damn i fail @ life, facepalm to me cause i cant post a pic! fml
14 years ago
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CassiusClay
Posts: 1757 - Karma: 2
A $5 coupon? What the fuck are you going to do with a $5 coupon at a ski shop? A few sticks of ptex?
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
I was wondering when the trolls would show up.

You can add $15 of cash to a $5 coupon and then buy something that is $20.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
Here's some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon
14 years ago
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tyberesk
Posts: 446 - Karma: 41
I would say def go in and demand some sort of compensation for their poor mounting job.
14 years ago
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shibby
Posts: 7088 - Karma: -19
Can anyone possibly explain why this may have happened? It's especially weird that it happened on both skis consistently. The only thing I can really think of is a warped jig or a bad hand made one.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
I'm curious about this too. They brought out the fancy Look-branded rig when I pointed out the asymmetry.
14 years ago
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Troy.
Posts: 5070 - Karma: 12,550
While I don't think you'll notice the difference, unless you have super senses in your feet regarding your skis.

However, being charged $50 for a mistake that significant (in terms of expectations vs reality) is ridiculous. I would (personally) go back and just talk to them, be nice and just ask what they can do. It may be refund or a discount of somesort towards your next purchase, but regardless just talk to them. People make mistakes, and people also have a conscious. They'll want to right their wrong.
14 years ago
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25444 - Karma: 13,856
All jigs have little feet, its possible that the jig had worn feet or something in between the ski and the foot. As I said though, if you're measuring in milimeters, you're either drawing something in CAD or worrying too much.
14 years ago
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
Ya the feet must be worn. I know the Pivot jig that we use at the shop that I work at is probably close to 20 years old and probably is not perfect anymore.
14 years ago
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rozboon
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 868
I wonder if the jig was missing the rubber things that go on the feet on one side and the guy had a bit of a slow moment and didn't think it would make a difference. Would kinda explain the consistent offset.
I'm not fully sure what I would do. Considering it cost you $50, maybe go in and explain that you don't want a new pair of skis, which you probbbbably could argue if you wanted to be an ass, but you would like a refund.
It also depends on your relationship with the shop. You don't wanna be going in there 2 weeks later for some boot adjustment after being a pain over $50.
14 years ago
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Its_Greg
Posts: 262 - Karma: 80
I'm picking up my mount tomorrow and this thread is making me nervous.... As other people said, you probably wouldn't feel that 2mm, but just knowing it's there would piss me off lol
14 years ago
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Tucks
Posts: 2120 - Karma: 161
I hope that I am not the only one thinking this is just shitty employee error. I mean it is borderline acceptable in my view especially if you put it in perspective that you literally paid 50$ for ~10minutes of work and what the guarantee that the workmanship is done right. I mean sure they will work and people may call you out for complaining over nothing because they are still usable but in reality you are the customer and if you are not happy and they don't accommodate for you unhappiness than I would not give them your return business. I mean I have personally mounted bindings freehand better than that and at this point of the season/year they should not be able to blame it on newbies or having to rush because they have a large quantity of skis to do. It also leads me to ask the question, how many other sketchy mount jobs has this tech done in the past?

14 years ago
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JayDope
Posts: 6842 - Karma: 408
it takes more than 10 min of work to mount flat mount skis, after making the proper measurements, throwing the jig on properly, drilling the holes etc, and then testing them with the machine with both boots and setting the din. With that being said, the binding test machine at our shop costs somewhere between 20-30gs, so the 50$ u r spending in turn is paying to make sure ur bindings r releasing properly as well as paying for the machine we use to test ur bindings, so 50$ doesnt sound like much IMO, ur bindings r fine, go ski on them.
14 years ago
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Tucks
Posts: 2120 - Karma: 161
I beg to differ it literally takes me under 10 minutes to mount let alone remount a pair of skis. I mean granted this is going at a good clip but it really should not take that long to mount skis in the ~10 minute area. Yes, testing does take some more time so it does take longer than the 10 minutes I stated. Granted the testing machines do cost a lot, I am not here to argue about that but the bottom line is that he paid 50$ he deserves a quality mount.
14 years ago
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A-Lee
Posts: 256 - Karma: 19
If your really that worried about it you could just trade skis with me...just saying.
14 years ago
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
Whilst it's clearly not a huge issue, and you can probably ski on those skis fine, you paid them for a mount, and looks like they did less than a great job. I would ask for a refund.
14 years ago
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Bloc_chain
Posts: 26051 - Karma: 4,433
honestly if you go in and ask for money back they are going to think you are a huge douche
14 years ago
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
2mm should not be a problem, but I have mounted a couple pairs of skis with paper templates, and both times have done better than most shop mounts. I think you should tell the shop it happened again, but is not that bad, and politely suggest they check all their measurements before drilling. Even with a jig.



14 years ago
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CassiusClay
Posts: 1757 - Karma: 2
Trolls? You're the dipshit asking if you should demand a $5 coupon for getting your skis mounted. If you're really going to go in there and make a fuss do it big- i can imagine the look on everyones faces when you ask for a $5 coupon.
14 years ago
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
I... I need about 3.50
14 years ago
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25444 - Karma: 13,856
Click for larger image
14 years ago
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cool_name
Posts: 4295 - Karma: 3,136
go back and show them the error and ask for some compensation (atleast your 50 bucks back)

btw i dont know how old you are but if you like 16 or around that age bringing your father along and they will give you more respect

bottom line you dont get anything without asking(dont know how many free pizzas i got by complaining about the quality). who knows maybe you will get brand new mounted skis or a huge store criedit, presonally i would complain and see what happens.
14 years ago
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Justo8484
Posts: 3905 - Karma: 206
missing the rubber feet on the jig on one side would account for a bit more than 2mm in most cases. if they're using an old look jig, it might not be wide enough to fit the halos. my shop has an old one that we put rubber bands on instead of the rubber feet so it can clear wider skis. if this shop has a similar setup, missing rubber bands on one side could account for a 2mm difference. that said, provided the feet are in place, i've never had any issues mounting pivots dead center in the ski, and i've done it on my last three pairs of park skis.
14 years ago
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
am i the only one who understands that the baseplate on those fks swivels, and it might only look off because the thing is slightly swiveled and maybe the heel adjustments are barely off to one side making it look like the dildo is off center?
14 years ago
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Nope, they are off center dude...
14 years ago
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
i see what youre saying, but they are in fact off center. its probably not a big deal as others have said, but i would probably go say something just because its happened to you before. once and a fix is understandable, but seeing as it has happened twice has to be annoying
14 years ago
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DUKES
Posts: 5152 - Karma: 701
$50 bucks for a mount damn thats pretty pricey ive gotten half that on most mounts.
14 years ago
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LittleGiurk
Posts: 88 - Karma: 110
dude youll be fine, like what some people said, you wont even notice it, its just a thin ski.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
that's a very good point, but the plate is centered. the "front" photos show that the metal is basically flush with the underlying plastic. I also considered the possibility that it was not symmetric, but that's not the case either.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
just to clarify, these were different shops. had it been the same shop, i would have probably been more upset. but i did specifically ask them to be careful that the spacers were set correctly. 2mm was probably hard or impossible to notice unless you were looking out for it.
14 years ago
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rdr
Posts: 26 - Karma: 11
By the way, here's my email with Dynastar/Look:


======================response=========

Dan,
There is no “standard” within the certification process that lists an acceptable deviation from center. Obviously the ideal placement is centered on the ski.
That being said the only way to tell if it will affect your skiing is to ski them. It should not affect the function of the binding itself.
In the end it is up to the shop that mounted them to make you a satisfied customer.
YYYY YYYY
Rossignol Group Service Manager
Rossignol, Dynastar, Lange, Roxy Alpine
======================================
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:09 PM
To: info
Subject: Look certified mounting?
Dear Dynastar/Look,

I dropped off new Armada Halo skis and Look Pivot 14 Wide bindings at a local Look certified ski shop last Thursday and just picked them up (Tues. morning), having paid $50 to have them mounted.

Unfortunately, both bindings were mounted off center by 2mm. In particular, both the left and right binding are closer to the right edge of each ski by 2mm (i.e., they are both right justified, slightly). I have attached a few photographs of one ski, but both skis look identically.
Of course a small amount of error is unavoidable. The question is: is this amount of error within Dynastar/Look's own acceptable range of error? Either way, what exactly is the acceptable range of error that passes Look certification?
As for the tech at the ski shop, he wasn't the one who did the mounting himself, but he was unwilling to even admit that they weren't centered (and worse, that the left and right bindings were both mounted to the right ... had they both been mounted to their outer edge, the mounting would have at least been symmetric).
I would appreciate your clarification on the matter.
Thanks,
Dan
14 years ago
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Miguel-L
Posts: 140 - Karma: 22
Well 50$ is a pretty expensive charge for mount in the first place comapring to my shop where it was 20$ and done perfect but i dunno man if it hasnt been to long go talk to them but if its been a few weeks-month dont because they will get pissed and remeber you for future stuff
14 years ago
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tbayskier
Posts: 1145 - Karma: 1,751
I personally would not give a fuck.....dude it's two mm.  think about that....2 mm.  Not a big deal, and the bindings still work the same.  Also remember they will be extremely unhappy to help you again if you go back and complain. 
14 years ago
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nigel12
Posts: 571 - Karma: 11

as a certified ski tech who has worked in an independant ski shop for 3 years full time and mounts his own skiis with paper jigs, this in my opinion is bs

if you payed 50$ to have those mounted and specifically told them this has happened to you before and your looking for it to not happen again for your skiis to come out anything less then perfect is bullshit. you payed 50 bucks to have it done right not to have it off center. thats your right. the minimum they should have done for you is a refund on there absolutly rediculous cost for a mount. a five dollar coupon is a slap in your face unfortunatly. you may not notice the it skiing but i think i would. and it doesnt matter weather you notice it if your skiiing or not you can fucking see clear as day that they fucked up. plain and simple id be mad choked.

14 years ago
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