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Canting vs. Cuff Alignment

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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
I was originally just responding to someone in the Boot Fitting Sticky, but it got a bit longer than a simple reply so I thought I would just make a thread out of it since this comes up from time to time...

Canting often gets confused with Cuff Alignment, so let's tackle them both. Yay.

Canting involves adjusting the foot and leg shaft angles of the entire boot. This is achieved by literally grinding an angle into the bottom of your boot sole so that your entire boot (not just the upper cuff) permanently leans inward or outward. The toe and heel lugs of the boot have to be then be machined back to DIN standard so they can fit back into your binding. Most lower shells come out of the factory at 90/0 degrees (not Canted)- if you look at the vertical seam at the heel of your boot, it will be perpendicular with the ground. Atomic's race boots, for example, are Canted 1 degree outwards right out of the box. When your boots are Canted and sole planed correctly, you have a boot that is mega responsive to the slightest input you give it. This is kinda overkill for most folks on here, but if you want to drop the $200-$300 to give it a try, it will turn your Pinto into a Ferrari when executed properly. (Be careful, this can cause serious damage to your boot and you if not executed properly).

What is more common is Cuff Alignment, which is unfortunately mislabeled on the cuff rivets of most ski boots as "Canting". Cuff Alignment specifically deals with the inward or outward angling of your upper cuff; it does not involve an adjustment to the lower shell. The purpose of this adjustment is to match the angle of the upper cuff to the curvature of your lower leg shaft for better comfort, greater control, and more responsive skiing. Sometimes, only the outside cuff rivet is adjustable, but you have greater alignment potential when both the inner and outer rivets can move. It is way less complicated than truly Canting your boot, but if you screw it up it still sucks so don't immediately bust out the hex wrench and go to town on your boots.

Both of these adjustments also presuppose that you have your footbed totally dialed in. If your footbed is not totally dialed, your ankle will be out of alignment and consequently so will your leg shaft, which defeats the purpose of doing either of these adjustments.

I'm also of the mindset (mostly) that if it ain't broke don't fix it, especially for skiers who aren't racing. This post was mainly to serve as info rather than advice, and hopefully it has cleared up some things for some of you.
15 years ago
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
I had my boots ground so the canting is at 45 degrees, now I ski super fast and can do black diamonds
15 years ago
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25444 - Karma: 13,856
Click for larger image
15 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
That would be awesome if you really had that. I don't even think you could step into a binding. But it would be pretty sweet to watch you try.
15 years ago
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
couldn't the canting also be achieved by putting a canting plate between your binding and ski, basically a very thin plastic plate cut in a low angle, 0.5 or 1° or something so your whole boot + binding is tilted....
would basically have the same effect as getting your boot canted....


15 years ago
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
^^*wouldn't
and excuse my spelling or word choice, i'm not English speaking by nature :)
15 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
yep you could do that for sure, you just have to remember which ski is for your left foot and which one is for your right foot.
15 years ago
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
I would never know, it's much better than most of the fools on here.
15 years ago
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
would canting have any advantage if you don't carve like a madman on the groomers...
ie. would canting of your skis affect powder performance...
^^i know this isn't done for pow skis, but maybe it could make some difference, good or bad :)

just interested about this :)
15 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
It basically is maximizing your efficiency and dialing in your set up so your feet, your ankles, your legs, your knees, etc are bio-mechanically in tune with the rest of your body. Theoretically, it helps out everyone. You see a lot of big mountain athletes dial in their set ups like this because they travel at the same speeds as DH racers and require a similar precision in their skiing.

Take McConkey for example- he used to spend hours with his tech setting up his bindings on his skis to find the right amount of abducted stance he was going for. And Sage is mostly in our WC plug race boot when he isn't touring. So basically you see a lot of the same set up techniques from race transfer over to big mountain pretty frequently because of the similar requirements.
15 years ago
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MrLarsen
Posts: 583 - Karma: 16
Finally, a nice informative thread in GT! Nice info to know, although I doubt I will be doing anything with my boots (atleast not without help from a boot-fitter)
15 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
Canting isn't super common with freeski athletes, but getting 3 or 5mm lifts installed is fairly common. This involves screwing on a 3 or 5mm plate to the sole of the boot, which lifts the boot up 3 or 5mm providing more leverage over the ski (wide bindings do this too). Rather handy for making wider skis more responsive. A lot of our athletes were doing this to their boots, so we incorporated into the design of the new Volt:

Click for larger image

Instead of adding lifters to the sole, we raised the actual shell 5mm so you don't have to machine down the toe/heel lugs. You can see that the shell at the toe/heel lugs looks kinda taller than normal in the pic.
15 years ago
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
So which way would you want to angle the boot? When standing flat I tend to put more pressure on the insides of my feet (or the inside edge of the ski) so would you put wedges under that part of your foot? or grind down the right of the right boot and left of the left boot. Does that make any sense? Or is it the total other way around?
15 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
This is where it's part science, part art. The science: most everyone stands like you do, which is a result of pronating (the inward motion of your ankle that is required to walk). This is why dialing in your footbed has to happen first, so that it repositions your foot in the correct place, unique to your subjective physiology. If that is wrong, then any measurement taken of your leg shaft will be wrong as well and your Canting or Cuff Alignment will also be wrong. Super short general answer is that a footbed rolls you to the outside but stops your foot from collapsing/moving inside the boot and Canting brings the center of your knee (which was moved outward because of the footbed) back inwards. This type of adjustment ensures that your foot is positioned properly in the boot (footbed) and your leg is brought back to a super efficient position over the ski (Canting). Everyone therefore has different amounts/degrees of Canting done (per leg even) to get back over the center of the ski.

Sometimes this is ignored based on what a racer wants or what he/she feels will make him/her faster. This is the art, finding out what will make each specific racer faster within the rules of the science.

So basically, it depends, ha.
15 years ago
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
so basically the purpose of canting your boot or binding is to bring your knee back over the center of your ski....


am i right?

15 years ago
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matt.rad
Posts: 1813 - Karma: 307
my boot :)

one of the many reasons i'm really really stoked to be riding it this season.
15 years ago
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cool.
Posts: 3457 - Karma: 1,725
yes.

and i might have to snag a pair of the volts. i've only heard good things
15 years ago
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ankhou
Posts: 505 - Karma: 238
onenerdykid: I'm seriously thinking about getting custom footbeds. I was having issues with a pressure point in my shells which was about halfway down on the outside of my feet (almost directly under the lower buckle on a FT shell) - it was causing a lot of pain even after a run or two.

Since having the shells ground / punched properly in that area, I've now found that I'm getting pressure all along the outside edge of each foot, which I presume is because my feet are misaligned. I only have a basic $30 footbed, but it was doing the trick until I got my boots punched properly. The pressure is now causing a lot of cramping all along the base of my foot in a very short space of time.

Do you think that custom footbeds would help in my situation? I'm looking at about $150-200, but I'm happy to spend it if it solves the pain that I've been dealing with. Also would consider canting if necessary.
13 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
Now that your foot can sit down in the boot (due the stretching) it is craving support and that is most likely what is causing your underfoot cramping. So, I would definitely look at upgrading your footbed situation.

I wouldn't go after canting your shell, but cuff alignment should always be done. It will just make things more responsive and more comfortable on your leg.
13 years ago
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ankhou
Posts: 505 - Karma: 238
Thanks - I'm going to go and have a chat to the shop about it tomorrow. Crossing my fingers for an experienced fitter.
13 years ago
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ARMADAR7
Posts: 401 - Karma: 36
I dony know much about this but at a shop i was at recently they said that they have stoped doing what you talked about and now carve out peices of plastic and put them inside the boot to acomplish the same task Is this a good or bad idea
13 years ago
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7295 - Karma: 18,719
That method can be effective, I infact often prefer it as walking around in the boots will not affect the canting adjustment. It can often be incorparated into the footbed so as not to take up volume in the liner.

Bigger adjustments are harder to make, so thats why both techniques are still viable.
13 years ago
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ARMADAR7
Posts: 401 - Karma: 36
this is by far the best thread i have ever been on in GT no one being a duche or an idiot this is how people should answer questions on this site +k
13 years ago
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powerslide
Posts: 570 - Karma: 273
this - and i have mr. onenerdykid at 10/10. It's like gear talk has it's own boot doc. he always takes good time to replay - a fine example for the site.
13 years ago
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
I've been thinking about getting my boots canted, but don't have anyone here who can do it. I have seen some people using duck tape on the soles of their boots to dial in how much canting is required/feels best. Is this a good idea to work out if canting will help me? If so how do I best do it?
13 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
First, you need to have your footbed dialed, and I do mean dialed. If your ankle rotates a bit too much, then your knee won't track properly over your foot, which will give you a mis-read on how much sole canting you need.

The best shops (usually race shops) have special balance bars you stand on (while in your boots) to see how much sole canting you need. A more basic way is to get binding shims and place them under your boot to see what gets your knee back over your toes properly. Start with 1°, then 1.5°, then 2.0° etc.

If you use duct tape or a door stopper or some other wedge, you might find out what gets your knee in place but not know what degree it is.
13 years ago
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
Cheers, I think my footbeds are good, had them a few years and they have seemed to work well.

Any recommendations for shops in the UK? Or maybe France? I am doing more SL training than usual this year as I have to do some races to work in France.
13 years ago
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7295 - Karma: 18,719
Where in the Uk are you? if you could get to leeds to see julian he is great or there are a few others around the uk. Luckily new footbeds are only about £50 in the uk so its not much if you need to replace.
13 years ago
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 6004 - Karma: 3,697
onenerdykidSuper short general answer is that a footbed rolls you to the outside but stops your foot from collapsing/moving inside the boot and Canting brings the center of your knee (which was moved outward because of the footbed) back inwards.


Super old bump. Just wanted to chat about this point I highlighted in your response. I have never seen someone who pronates have their knee brought so far laterally that they need to be canted back inwards. Usually I see the person's ankle get rolled outwards to sub talar neutral, then their knee is still inside so you cant them outwards to centre it. Obviously every situation is different but I find it interesting that was your example. I can't recall ever canting someone inwards (more material on the outside of the foot).

Interestingly enough, there is a school of thought (I think it's wrong) that says you should can't inwards if yourknee aligns inwards. That way, you are supporting the person to ski in their natural position.
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6748 - Karma: 11,772
hemlockjibber8Super old bump. Just wanted to chat about this point I highlighted in your response. I have never seen someone who pronates have their knee brought so far laterally that they need to be canted back inwards. Usually I see the person's ankle get rolled outwards to sub talar neutral, then their knee is still inside so you cant them outwards to centre it. Obviously every situation is different but I find it interesting that was your example. I can't recall ever canting someone inwards (more material on the outside of the foot).

Interestingly enough, there is a school of thought (I think it's wrong) that says you should can't inwards if yourknee aligns inwards. That way, you are supporting the person to ski in their natural position.


I'm exactly the person who severely over-pronates and needs to be canted back inwards (about 2-2.5° on each leg). When my ankle is near neutral, my knee is well outside the target alignment between ankle-knee-hip. I find this fairly common with bow legs and a really flexible foot.
5 years ago
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 6004 - Karma: 3,697
onenerdykidI'm exactly the person who severely over-pronates and needs to be canted back inwards (about 2-2.5° on each leg). When my ankle is near neutral, my knee is well outside the target alignment between ankle-knee-hip. I find this fairly common with bow legs and a really flexible foot.


Interesting. I can see why you used that example then. Thanks
5 years ago
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shin-bang
Posts: 4106 - Karma: 7,038
Holy old thread.


good read tho
5 years ago
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nmwninjart
Posts: 3105 - Karma: 16,044
Very good information for sure. Ive seen those plastic shims that go between the race plate and binding for race setups.
I forgotten about the footbed being an option for adjustment. I was told I need 3° for my right side. I can feel it too. Especially when skiing switch. I just have to remember to adjust for it.
5 years ago
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