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Call for binding manufacturers to standardize mount patterns

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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
Why cant binding manufacturers just agree on a mount pattern? they already follow many standards for release characteristics and boot shapes. cant they agree on where the screws go? then ski makers can start using threaded inserts and make everybody's life better.

shops dont want to train people, buy jigs constantly and potentially have to warranty mistakes for drilling skis
consumers dont want to have go to a shop to put bindings on
if people had the option of easily changing bindings they would be more likely to try other kinds making sales go up

if snowboarders can do it, so can we.
if skateboards can agree on truck mount patterns, so can we

How does one/a group lobby ISO or whoever to make this happen?

the EU forced the iec to put in regulations that apple must follow for chargers, clearly its possible.

just a thought
2 years ago
34 7
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
Only if it's sth pattern

But the real problem is boot sizing. I don't want a bunch of inserts I don't need to accommodate boot sizes I don't use

**This post was edited on Oct 27th 2023 at 2:40:01pm

**This post was edited on Oct 27th 2023 at 2:40:16pm
2 years ago
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skierman
Posts: 8618 - Karma: 9,488
Its because of Big Jig lobbyists.
2 years ago
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gravel
Posts: 5524 - Karma: 42,381
mount point. if ski brands used threaded inserts you would be far more limited on moving the binding forward or backward. companies would put the inserts at -5 to -15cm from center and we'd be screwed.
2 years ago
33 0
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
maaatttOnly if it's sth pattern

But the real problem is boot sizing. I don't want a bunch of inserts I don't need to accommodate boot sizes I don't use

most bindings have a pretty good range of bsls they can take at one mount point i think 31-23 would be covered by like 5 or 6 points. i think the benefits of several mount points outweigh the loss of having extra.
gravelmount point. if ski brands used threaded inserts you would be far more limited on moving the binding forward or backward. companies would put the inserts at -5 to -15cm from center and we'd be screwed.

racers(ists) often move their mount point forward and back as they please on a race plate, like theyll have three or four pair of the same skis just mounted at different points to get different turn characteristics based on the course. im not saying i like race plates. they make the ski feel weird underfoot and lift up your boot from the ski.

also there arent many fully symmetrical skis anymore. recomended mount should always be the centre of the sidecut and if people want to go back from there they should be able to.


2 years ago
3 5
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
It's also going to be more hardware in the ski, much more than just like a quiver killer insert

Snowboard inserts are anchored with a mounting bracket that comes up through the bottom of the core.

People already whinge about bindings effecting the flex of the ski. Now you'll be adding a couple plates of a few mms thick
2 years ago
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GrapeHunter
Posts: 2406 - Karma: 8,779
This is communism at its finest. Open your eyes folks, we live in a society
2 years ago
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elm.
Posts: 1510 - Karma: 13,606
Could be sweet if there was a pin binding that had the exact same mount pattern as an alpine binding.


Or you could specify inserts straight from the factory. Could streamline things
2 years ago
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snomaster
Posts: 3348 - Karma: 5,783
I used to have the dyna duke plates. And it was painful to look at two hole patterns on the same plate! Effing skiers!!! We can't learn from our snowboarding friends... what a shame!
2 years ago
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Voyage86
Posts: 990 - Karma: 3,769
maaatttOnly if it's sth pattern

But the real problem is boot sizing. I don't want a bunch of inserts I don't need to accommodate boot sizes I don't use

**This post was edited on Oct 27th 2023 at 2:40:01pm

**This post was edited on Oct 27th 2023 at 2:40:16pm

it’s just about the binding being mounted to the ski. It would be exactly the same as it is now except the holes in the bindings would all be the same. Wdym?
2 years ago
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
Voyage86it’s just about the binding being mounted to the ski. It would be exactly the same as it is now except the holes in the bindings would all be the same. Wdym?

What do you mean it would be exactly the same

Op wants inserts
2 years ago
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
maaatttWhat do you mean it would be exactly the same

Op wants inserts


Inserts or not, mount patterns should be the same
2 years ago
1 1
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HypeBeast
Posts: 10097 - Karma: 76,795
GrapeHunterThis is communism at its finest. Open your eyes folks, we live in a society

No.
2 years ago
2 1
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midwestcoast
Posts: 237 - Karma: 2,412
Worked in and around tune shops for a decade. It's cause bindings are different ya kook. A pivot wouldn't work if the mount was the same as an STH pattern and vice versa.

Manufacturers want you to go to a shop so they don't get sued cause lil jerry mounted his own shitty jesters with his boner. ya'll dummies are too stoned.
2 years ago
7 5
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hoodratz47
Posts: 12028 - Karma: 9,586
Line tried this with the reactor. It's what made then get bought out
2 years ago
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Lemuel
Posts: 14544 - Karma: 11,158
I was on board with this argument back on the day. It would never work. Anyone who had done mounts knows that patterns can differ vastly from binding to binding.

No other binding would be able to mate up / make a pivot heel pattern work, so the likely outcome would be a big ole plate with a wider pattern on pivots and y’all would loose your shit.

there are some tele bindings that share patterns ( Bishop and 22 outlaws I believe) but even then, I think the boot sole center / pin line is off. This is another problem you’d likely have to deal with.

let’s say Marker and Salomon made it work. A Jester may end up forward or back in the same holes compared to an STH. There would have to be quite a few threaded inserts.

A Burton esque EST system may be the answer. Rossi did something like that for a short stint.
2 years ago
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TOAST.
Posts: 7789 - Karma: 40,229
no thanks, this would only work if evey binding became a demo binding with adjustable heal and toe.
Also I think every ski shop on the east coast would be out of business if they couldn't charge dumb amounts to mount skis.
2 years ago
2 2
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snomaster
Posts: 3348 - Karma: 5,783
I’m definitely on team Standardize, so we could have inserts that work for any binding - like our snowboarding friends (sans Burton).

Apple is finally giving up in their unique charging cable. So maybe there’s hope!

Of course a standard hole pattern is possible. It’s just extremely unlikely because there’s no incentive for binding companies to conform.

Plates were a thing for a moment but alas, hole patterns can change even year to year for the same model. Basically, we’re fucked.
2 years ago
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
LemuelA Burton esque EST system may be the answer. Rossi did something like that for a short stint.


Wait really? I would like to see that





Also in terms of patterns changing "year to year," that doesn't happen all too often. Tyrolia 92w jigs from before lot of you were born will still mount today's attacks. Pivot patterns changed very slightly in the toe once, and I only came across the previous layout once or twice over the course of 1000+ mounts. Marker Royal family has never changed as far as I know.

The tooling for manufacturing these are not cheap, so companies aren't actually trying to change them often
2 years ago
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partyandBS
Posts: 6155 - Karma: 94,750
threaded pattern may only be possible with frame bindings. the threaded snowboard bindings come loose semi frequently and therefore if something got loose as separate pieces you would be more likely to eject and risk of injury goes up. no binding company wants to put their name on that liability lol. i honestly think there could be advantages to mounting snowboard bindings or at least the pucks and creating an alternative locking mechanism for binding angle.
2 years ago
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switchlip2
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 25,180
ajbskiWhy cant binding manufacturers just agree on a mount pattern? they already follow many standards for release characteristics and boot shapes. cant they agree on where the screws go? then ski makers can start using threaded inserts and make everybody's life better.

shops dont want to train people, buy jigs constantly and potentially have to warranty mistakes for drilling skis
consumers dont want to have go to a shop to put bindings on
if people had the option of easily changing bindings they would be more likely to try other kinds making sales go up

if snowboarders can do it, so can we.
if skateboards can agree on truck mount patterns, so can we

How does one/a group lobby ISO or whoever to make this happen?

the EU forced the iec to put in regulations that apple must follow for chargers, clearly its possible.

just a thought


Nah I’d prefer my mount to not fuck with my ski
2 years ago
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BradFiAusNzCoCa
Posts: 7550 - Karma: 67,106
God those were so bad. I had a pair. Returned them that day. If I remember correctly - if you twisted out, causing the heel to twist, the brake got stuck up and wouldn’t go down so you’d have a runaway ski.
hoodratz47Line tried this with the reactor. It's what made then get bought out
2 years ago
1 0
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Session
Posts: 5408 - Karma: 22,546
A standardized pattern would lock designs in to a box than engineers would have to design around. This would not be good for the future. Snowboarding can do this due to the simplicity of a snoboard binding, not having to release, etc.
2 years ago
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
I think it would be so sick if skis had inserts for boot sizes, and you screw in studs like cast system. Then every and any binding would just slide right on.

I think CAST should go in the direction of gripwalk mips dynafit. So people can still have it w.e way they like, but if they want this cool tech they pay extra.

skis and bindings would be “cast compatible” much like boots and bindings are grip walk or dynafit certified and helmets have mips.

idk, just some more thoughts.
2 years ago
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freestyler540
Posts: 13238 - Karma: 20,486
Im going to say its because of Patents. When you wanna have turn a product to make a profit and not be scammed, you have to describe exactly how its made so you can have exclusivity.
2 binding from 2 companies cannot have the same specs because of exclusivities.

ok, I know pin bindings…
2 years ago
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gravel
Posts: 5524 - Karma: 42,381
ajbskiI think it would be so sick if skis had inserts for boot sizes, and you screw in studs like cast system. Then every and any binding would just slide right on.

I think CAST should go in the direction of gripwalk mips dynafit. So people can still have it w.e way they like, but if they want this cool tech they pay extra.

skis and bindings would be “cast compatible” much like boots and bindings are grip walk or dynafit certified and helmets have mips.

idk, just some more thoughts.


there are already so many good reasons in this thread why inserts wouldn’t work, what did you think?

ignoring screw pattern issues, bindings take 8 screws per ski. if you made enough inserts for multiple boot sizes and mount points you’d easily have 20-40 holes in your ski. way easier to snap. increases construction costs. increases weight. then you’d be skiing around with a bunch of exposed insert holes happy to rust and eventually get moisture into your core.

binding plate would suck, we’re not racers anyway and we need the full flex. and i’m not advocating for center mount like you guessed early, but even -3cm back would have interference issues with wherever ski manufacturers would put inserts for standardized mount points.
2 years ago
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
gravelthere are already so many good reasons in this thread why inserts wouldn’t work, what did you think?

ignoring screw pattern issues, bindings take 8 screws per ski. if you made enough inserts for multiple boot sizes and mount points you’d easily have 20-40 holes in your ski. way easier to snap. increases construction costs. increases weight. then you’d be skiing around with a bunch of exposed insert holes happy to rust and eventually get moisture into your core.

binding plate would suck, we’re not racers anyway and we need the full flex. and i’m not advocating for center mount like you guessed early, but even -3cm back would have interference issues with wherever ski manufacturers would put inserts for standardized mount points.


Look not everyone has to agree. There were people who didn’t think pcs would replace type writers. There are still people who draft drawings and concepts by hand and not by computer (Adrian newey and chip foose).

im just painting a picture of how good life could be if some brand were to pursue a tech like this.

saying it won’t work is laughable. The whole idea of developing a system or product is to solve an issue. You design it so it does work. Having people point out possible flaws is good.

snowboards have 20-40 inserts per board. They are SS so they don’t rust.
they are cast/laminated into the board and make a seal so moisture doesn’t get in.
SS inserts would not make a difference in strength at the middle of the ski, if anything the compressive and tensile mod of steel would make them stronger. I could probably do the load simulations to prove it. I think we could get away with just two screws per binding piece, but three would also reduce the number of inserts required.
weight is a valid concern. I approximate each inserts weighs about 2 grams. But you are also removing material to put them in. Could be 50-200g per ski more. But it wouldn’t increase the swing weight by much since in the middle of the ski.


the way I see it the following sucks about how skis are currently mounted:
-not being able to change up your stance as you please
-not being able to swap in different bindings without drilling
-not being able to put any boot size into any ski (within reason of course)
-bindings tearing out
-drilling to mount is permanent and can interfere with other binding patterns.
-mount patterns and geometry are basically proprietary like apple chargers.

there are products in the market to solve these issues. Like quiver killer demo bindings marked schizo race plates etc.

if manufacturers or a third party company like gripwalk would agree on a standard and innovate such a tech, it would be dope.

Once again, it doesn’t have to be on every single ski manufactured.
2 years ago
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
Two screws per binding piece in a system that's known to loosen over a short time 😂😂
2 years ago
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
maaatttTwo screws per binding piece in a system that's known to loosen over a short time 😂😂


As if normal wood screws don’t loosen over time 😂😂
we literally have glue our screws in 😂😂 to prevent moisture getting in too 😂😂

yea the way skis are mounted right now is totally the best😂😂
2 years ago
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maaattt
Posts: 2796 - Karma: 33,987
ajbskiAs if normal wood screws don’t loosen over time 😂😂
we literally have glue our screws in 😂😂 to prevent moisture getting in too 😂😂

yea the way skis are mounted right now is totally the best😂😂


Dog snowboard bindings come loose after a literal two weeks of use, I have literally never seen ski bindings in the same shape after the same amount of time
2 years ago
3 1
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gravel
Posts: 5524 - Karma: 42,381
ajbskiThere were people who didn’t think pcs would replace type writers.

SS inserts would not make a difference in strength at the middle of the ski, if anything the compressive and tensile mod of steel would make them stronger. I could probably do the load simulations to prove it.

the way I see it the following sucks about how skis are currently mounted:
-not being able to change up your stance as you please
-not being able to swap in different bindings without drilling
-not being able to put any boot size into any ski (within reason of course)
-bindings tearing out
-drilling to mount is permanent and can interfere with other binding patterns.
-mount patterns and geometry are basically proprietary like apple chargers.

terrible comparison

what if you skied into a ditch? skis snap right before and behind the binding already without the introduced weaknesses.

i did plenty of FEA in school, so if you want to spend your time to model and simulate, go for it -
like you said, the steel itself wouldn't compress or stretch, but the holes in the wood made to accommodate inserts weaken the wood itself, which would be the part to snap - especially if there are two holes along a line perpendicular to the edge (as all bindings are currently designed). the rigidity of a steel insert could even introduce other stresses, if the ski is under force the steel wouldn't compress/flex on the compressive side of the bend, which would force the wood on the tensile side to experience more force than ordinary.

yes, it works in snowboards. but if you compared the cross sectional ratio of insert widths to wood width, the snowboard has so much more wood outside of the inserts to support the flex.

fair drawbacks for sure, but at the end of the day i agree with session. if you standardize screw pattern you force engineers at every company to design around those specs, which is unreasonably constraining considering the variations in binding designs and mechanisms.
2 years ago
3 0
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partyandBS
Posts: 6155 - Karma: 94,750
ajbskiAs if normal wood screws don’t loosen over time 😂😂
we literally have glue our screws in 😂😂 to prevent moisture getting in too 😂😂

yea the way skis are mounted right now is totally the best😂😂


so true 😆😆
im always stopping at the top of the lift to tighten my wood screws 😆😆
you see just as many homies on skis as boards tightening their set ups at the tool bench on the hill 🤣🤣
2 years ago
4 1
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TOAST.
Posts: 7789 - Karma: 40,229
gravelterrible comparison

what if you skied into a ditch? skis snap right before and behind the binding already without the introduced weaknesses.

i did plenty of FEA in school, so if you want to spend your time to model and simulate, go for it -
like you said, the steel itself wouldn't compress or stretch, but the holes in the wood made to accommodate inserts weaken the wood itself, which would be the part to snap - especially if there are two holes along a line perpendicular to the edge (as all bindings are currently designed). the rigidity of a steel insert could even introduce other stresses, if the ski is under force the steel wouldn't compress/flex on the compressive side of the bend, which would force the wood on the tensile side to experience more force than ordinary.

yes, it works in snowboards. but if you compared the cross sectional ratio of insert widths to wood width, the snowboard has so much more wood outside of the inserts to support the flex.

fair drawbacks for sure, but at the end of the day i agree with session. if you standardize screw pattern you force engineers at every company to design around those specs, which is unreasonably constraining considering the variations in binding designs and mechanisms.

but bro...apple phone chargers
2 years ago
0 1
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
partyandBSso true 😆😆
im always stopping at the top of the lift to tighten my wood screws 😆😆
you see just as many homies on skis as boards tightening their set ups at the tool bench on the hill 🤣🤣

yea I never have to tighten my wood screws that are glued in are literally never meant to be taken out 🤣🤣 it’s so dumb someone would even suggest something that would make that possible 😅



The inserts don’t need to accept machine screws like snowboards. plates for example take regular binding screws and are meant to be screwed into multiple times. The same kind are on car parts and sleds.


don’t think of this as some existing tech that works exactly like something on the market. It’s something that would require development.


@gravel @Session engineers already have to work within the framework of other standards like ISO DIN Dyn GW. That’s the reason why Rossi boots will work with marker bindings. I’m sure you know that. I don’t hear about anyone complaining about these standards being bad for the future because engineers have to design around them
2 years ago
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
TOAST.but bro...apple phone chargers


But bro stfu.

I get it. It’s real fun to fuckin tell people they are dumb and nothing worthy of pursuing isn’t already on the market.

People love to say how it wouldn’t work and how they wouldn’t like it.

but not one person says it wouldn’t be sick if bindings and skis were as interchangeable as boots and bindings.

instead of being nay sayers we should figure out how to get manufacturers to make a system like this because it has value.
2 years ago
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TOAST.
Posts: 7789 - Karma: 40,229
ajbskiBut bro stfu.

I get it. It’s real fun to fuckin tell people they are dumb and nothing worthy of pursuing isn’t already on the market.

People love to say how it wouldn’t work and how they wouldn’t like it.

but not one person says it wouldn’t be sick if bindings and skis were as interchangeable as boots and bindings.

instead of being nay sayers we should figure out how to get manufacturers to make a system like this because it has value.

you saying it would be cool to see without contributing any realistic ideas is as helpful as me being negative about it.

For beginner skis it could be done, but I can't see it ever working for a product that this site would be interested in buying. Getting the adjustability needed for boot position/size without raising the binding up significantly is a tough ask. Maybe with more creativity in the materials department it could work but then the bindings are going to be ridiculously expensive most likely.

I would love for the t nuts that are use in snowboards to be used in skis because my cores alway rot out and I rip bindings usually before I snap a ski, so my skis would last longer. would be a cool thing to see custom ski builders offer in the future.
2 years ago
2 0
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ajbski
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 5,424
TOAST.you saying it would be cool to see without contributing any realistic ideas is as helpful as me being negative about it.

For beginner skis it could be done, but I can't see it ever working for a product that this site would be interested in buying. Getting the adjustability needed for boot position/size without raising the binding up significantly is a tough ask. Maybe with more creativity in the materials department it could work but then the bindings are going to be ridiculously expensive most likely.

I would love for the t nuts that are use in snowboards to be used in skis because my cores alway rot out and I rip bindings usually before I snap a ski, so my skis would last longer. would be a cool thing to see custom ski builders offer in the future.


There’s lots of ways to skin the cat; I don’t really care exactly how it’s done.

I think the big step forward to making something like this potentially happen is for binding makers to standardize a mount pattern. That’s the purpose of the thread.

I know I keep bringing up CAST, but they evidence that two entierly different bindings can work with the same mount pattern and be swapped out easily. I’m sure everyone on these forums is down with cast.

the way I see it feasible to change up stance or accept different bsls is if there are essentially quiver killers at boot size points, but I guess I’m getting ahead of myself.
2 years ago
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