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I live in Wisconsin, and I need a new car, I do travel out of state to snowier areas (out west and the UP) fairly often, I currently have the beloved van but she is a thirsty girl and I need a car with better gas mileage for my 30 mile daily commute. The van is FWD with A/T tires and honestly slays in the snow, but part of me wants to get something all wheel drive like a forester or a rav4 or something along those lines. But for the sake of cost, gas mileage, and possibly getting like a hybrid hatchback or something I am considering looking towards another FWD car and just getting gnarly tires for it. Part of me still feels an AWD might be better just to have even tho its a little more costly. But snow has been shit up here the past few years and we have maybe 1 or 2 days per winter where roads are fully covered in more than 2 inches of snow.
AWD is nice but only if it's subaru or audi. Otherwise, 4WD is where it's at. It's way simpler, cheaper, and typically more robust. And you get 2WD for the mileage when you don't need 4.
Also tires make such a huge difference. A 2WD car with great tires will be much better than a 4WD/AWD car with shitty or even mediocre tires.
**This post was edited on Nov 30th 2021 at 4:53:05pm
Your transit connect van is pretty much a ford focus. If that served you well with nice tires I would say just find a nice fuel efficient car and have some nice tires on it and you should do fine.
Tires matter a heck of a lot more than awd/4wd. Most of the time awd can be helpful, my forester feels great on snow, but I also had a Dodge Neon at one point that did pretty alright with just a set of all seasons. Some 4wds also suck in the snow. Don't ever get a Chevy Trailblazer for example. We could on and on giving examples of cars that are great or not on snow, some will be awd some will not. So yeah, snow tires and conservative driving habits are the most important.
Drive an AWD Rav and can confirm it does great on snowy roads, so long as clearance doesn't become an issue. Plus that toyota reliability and an easy 30+ mpg highway. What sucks right now is how crazy car prices are. I bought mine in 2018 and it's actually gone up $3k for trade-in and $5k for private sale from what I paid.
safety.thirdDrive an AWD Rav and can confirm it does great on snowy roads, so long as clearance doesn't become an issue. Plus that toyota reliability and an easy 30+ mpg highway. What sucks right now is how crazy car prices are. I bought mine in 2018 and it's actually gone up $3k for trade-in and $5k for private sale from what I paid.
My gf has a Rav and She might sell it to me if she finds a nice Camry for cheap, so that could be a good option
r00kieTires matter a heck of a lot more than awd/4wd. Most of the time awd can be helpful, my forester feels great on snow, but I also had a Dodge Neon at one point that did pretty alright with just a set of all seasons. Some 4wds also suck in the snow. Don't ever get a Chevy Trailblazer for example. We could on and on giving examples of cars that are great or not on snow, some will be awd some will not. So yeah, snow tires and conservative driving habits are the most important.
Fr, I got Yokohama Geolandars and my van feels like it’s running 4wd with ‘Em in the snow.
and fuck you don’t gotta tell me twice to not get the trailblazer 🤮😂
r00kieTires matter a heck of a lot more than awd/4wd. Most of the time awd can be helpful, my forester feels great on snow, but I also had a Dodge Neon at one point that did pretty alright with just a set of all seasons. Some 4wds also suck in the snow. Don't ever get a Chevy Trailblazer for example. We could on and on giving examples of cars that are great or not on snow, some will be awd some will not. So yeah, snow tires and conservative driving habits are the most important.
True the tire selection is huge in getting the most capability out of your car that you can. My Tacoma has 33” A/Ts and it does way better in the snow than my Cayenne that has a full center locking differential- mainly because the street tires just can’t grip shit they aren’t made to do it. But a front wheel drive sedan is only going to get you through so much without having to chain up. Idk about Wisconsin but in WA they require chains on the passes a shit ton, but AWD is almost always exempt.
A high quality snow tire as most said will be the best increase, plus it saves your summer tires saving you $. 4wd is better than all as stated.
The only thing I’d add is fwd with snow tires will get stuck in deeper snow before 4 or awd with snow tires, and the torque differentials on the newer audis etc far exceeds other 4/awd systems and especially a fwd.
g luck in your search, hope you get something that works for you and is reliable for peace of mind so you can enjoy your trips. I drive back and forth from pa to Colorado etc multiple times a year every year so I get it.
Honestly, snow tires make way more difference than AWD with all season will. I've seen prius with Snowtires and 2 wheel outperform brand new AWD mercedes benz and all seasons in the snow
ReturnToMonkeyAWD is nice but only if it's subaru or audi. Otherwise, 4WD is where it's at. It's way simpler, cheaper, and typically more robust. And you get 2WD for the mileage when you don't need 4.
Also tires make such a huge difference. A 2WD car with great tires will be much better than a 4WD/AWD car with shitty or even mediocre tires.
Some Audis are 4wd and others are awd. Anything ending in a 4 or higher (A4/A5/Q5 etc) uses a torsen center diff with full time 4wd. Anything ending in a 3 or lower (A3/S3/Q3 etc) uses a haldex clutch awd system that engages when it detects wheel slip, but is otherwise just fwd. I hear the newest generation of haldex is actually very good and is almost as good as full time 4wd.
I used to run FWD Volvos with dope ass snow tires, and never got stuck, unless I was being a dumbass. Now I've got an AWD Volvo with snows, and the difference is noticeable. For daily driving, FWD and tires is fine, but AWD and tires allows you to got more places. Definitely been able to get farther on FS roads and shit. Plus, being able to get sideways without jerkin the handbrake is hella fun.
SendyMcSendyfaceI used to run FWD Volvos with dope ass snow tires, and never got stuck, unless I was being a dumbass. Now I've got an AWD Volvo with snows, and the difference is noticeable. For daily driving, FWD and tires is fine, but AWD and tires allows you to got more places. Definitely been able to get farther on FS roads and shit. Plus, being able to get sideways without jerkin the handbrake is hella fun.
Volvos are sick, I had a RWD 240 in high school with bomber snow tires and I only got it stuck when I was drifting or when I had to go up super steep hills in the snow.
I've had CRV's my whole life there AWD and the newer ones get around 33-35 highway and I've done even better. They last absolutely forever about 250k easy if you take care of it or more and honestly kill it in the snow. If your commuting I would get a accord or civic if you want a cheap fwd car and don't care about the room cause they can reach 40mpg without really trying to drive like your trying to save gas.
CrunnchyVanManI live in Wisconsin, and I need a new car, I do travel out of state to snowier areas (out west and the UP) fairly often, I currently have the beloved van but she is a thirsty girl and I need a car with better gas mileage for my 30 mile daily commute. The van is FWD with A/T tires and honestly slays in the snow, but part of me wants to get something all wheel drive like a forester or a rav4 or something along those lines. But for the sake of cost, gas mileage, and possibly getting like a hybrid hatchback or something I am considering looking towards another FWD car and just getting gnarly tires for it. Part of me still feels an AWD might be better just to have even tho its a little more costly. But snow has been shit up here the past few years and we have maybe 1 or 2 days per winter where roads are fully covered in more than 2 inches of snow.
Recently Got a ford focus ST. Threw some Nokian WRG4 tires on it. Not even full winters, they're just super sick all weathers. The focus is a torquey little stick with not a huge amount of ground clearance. Got 6 inches of heavy UP snow the other day and it handled it like a champ. Modern tires and modern TC are truly a thing to behold.
I was concerned coming from an outback, but after driving through that I'm more than confident that it will be fine (and fun, it's sporty little six speed) in anything less than 2 feet. The ground clearance is way more concerning to me than the traction
CrunnchyVanManI live in Wisconsin, and I need a new car, I do travel out of state to snowier areas (out west and the UP) fairly often, I currently have the beloved van but she is a thirsty girl and I need a car with better gas mileage for my 30 mile daily commute. The van is FWD with A/T tires and honestly slays in the snow, but part of me wants to get something all wheel drive like a forester or a rav4 or something along those lines. But for the sake of cost, gas mileage, and possibly getting like a hybrid hatchback or something I am considering looking towards another FWD car and just getting gnarly tires for it. Part of me still feels an AWD might be better just to have even tho its a little more costly. But snow has been shit up here the past few years and we have maybe 1 or 2 days per winter where roads are fully covered in more than 2 inches of snow.
My neighbor travels a lot via car for his work and he told me the other day his AWD Subaru goes through tires much more quickly than his FWD cars. Just something to keep in mind as a potentially hidden cost of an AWD.
LonelyRecently Got a ford focus ST. Threw some Nokian WRG4 tires on it. Not even full winters, they're just super sick all weathers. The focus is a torquey little stick with not a huge amount of ground clearance. Got 6 inches of heavy UP snow the other day and it handled it like a champ. Modern tires and modern TC are truly a thing to behold.
I was concerned coming from an outback, but after driving through that I'm more than confident that it will be fine (and fun, it's sporty little six speed) in anything less than 2 feet. The ground clearance is way more concerning to me than the traction
Tight, I’ve been thinking something like that or a Lexus CT, literally something with a decent gas mileage cuz I’m spending $60 a week on gas rn and I can’t afford this shit especially with how fucked gas prices are rn
Not all awd/fwd is the same. The differential action makes a huge difference between vehicles of similar drives. A subaru and a crv are awd but only the subaru will torque bias to the wheels that actually have traction. A fwd with a limited slip differential will perform similar if not better to an awd vehicle with open diffs. I think some newer cars bias brakes to apply torque to wheels with traction too, which is similar to what a limited slip differential does in a roundabout way.
open diff FWD or RWD is just one wheel drive (one front or one wheel always turning when stuck)
Limited slip FWD or RWD is two wheel drive (both front or rear turning when stuck)
Open diff AWD is like, 1.5 wheel drive (either one front and one rear turning when stuck, or just one wheel if it's buried af)
Locked center diff 4WD with open front and rear diffs is two wheel drive (one front and one back wheel spinning when stuck)
Limited slip center diff with limited slip rear diff is three wheel drive (both back wheels plus one front wheel spinning when stuck)
A tacoma or something similar with a rear locked diff and 4wd is three wheel drive , same as above ^
Something super boujee like a triple locked land cruiser or perhaps some subis/audis/bmw's will be true four wheel drive where all wheels can apply torque when stuck.
tldr; research a vehicles drivetrain system and see if there's any sort of traction management before you get disappointed buying something that seems better than it is, there's FWD's that kick ass and there's AWD that's mediocre.
BiffbarfNot all awd/fwd is the same. The differential action makes a huge difference between vehicles of similar drives. A subaru and a crv are awd but only the subaru will torque bias to the wheels that actually have traction. A fwd with a limited slip differential will perform similar if not better to an awd vehicle with open diffs. I think some newer cars bias brakes to apply torque to wheels with traction too, which is similar to what a limited slip differential does in a roundabout way.
open diff FWD or RWD is just one wheel drive (one front or one wheel always turning when stuck)
Limited slip FWD or RWD is two wheel drive (both front or rear turning when stuck)
Open diff AWD is like, 1.5 wheel drive (either one front and one rear turning when stuck, or just one wheel if it's buried af)
Locked center diff 4WD with open front and rear diffs is two wheel drive (one front and one back wheel spinning when stuck)
Limited slip center diff with limited slip rear diff is three wheel drive (both back wheels plus one front wheel spinning when stuck)
A tacoma or something similar with a rear locked diff and 4wd is three wheel drive , same as above ^
Something super boujee like a triple locked land cruiser or perhaps some subis/audis/bmw's will be true four wheel drive where all wheels can apply torque when stuck.
tldr; research a vehicles drivetrain system and see if there's any sort of traction management before you get disappointed buying something that seems better than it is, there's FWD's that kick ass and there's AWD that's mediocre.
This is some of the most helpful advice I’ve ever received on Newschoolers besides when @oldmanski helped me with my light bar
BiffbarfNot all awd/fwd is the same. The differential action makes a huge difference between vehicles of similar drives. A subaru and a crv are awd but only the subaru will torque bias to the wheels that actually have traction. A fwd with a limited slip differential will perform similar if not better to an awd vehicle with open diffs. I think some newer cars bias brakes to apply torque to wheels with traction too, which is similar to what a limited slip differential does in a roundabout way.
open diff FWD or RWD is just one wheel drive (one front or one wheel always turning when stuck)
Limited slip FWD or RWD is two wheel drive (both front or rear turning when stuck)
Open diff AWD is like, 1.5 wheel drive (either one front and one rear turning when stuck, or just one wheel if it's buried af)
Locked center diff 4WD with open front and rear diffs is two wheel drive (one front and one back wheel spinning when stuck)
Limited slip center diff with limited slip rear diff is three wheel drive (both back wheels plus one front wheel spinning when stuck)
A tacoma or something similar with a rear locked diff and 4wd is three wheel drive , same as above ^
Something super boujee like a triple locked land cruiser or perhaps some subis/audis/bmw's will be true four wheel drive where all wheels can apply torque when stuck.
tldr; research a vehicles drivetrain system and see if there's any sort of traction management before you get disappointed buying something that seems better than it is, there's FWD's that kick ass and there's AWD that's mediocre.
This is super correct and well written.
I have a question, with brake-bias differential, how does it know how much to move the brakes considering they may have different amounts of wear, contamination, heat, etc?
ReturnToMonkeyThis is super correct and well written.
I have a question, with brake-bias differential, how does it know how much to move the brakes considering they may have different amounts of wear, contamination, heat, etc?
I honestly don't know... But if I had a guess it might work like traction control but backwards. Something like an algorithm that cross references wheel speed data with some sort of inertial measurement unit on the vehicle's chassis to bias brake pressure. Like traction control or ABS, this would have to be an iterative process so the algorithm would constantly loop depending on how much slip there is detected. As the brake performance may change with usage (heat, contaminants, etc) more or less slippage would be detected and pressure would be adjusted on the fly.
All a guess but I live for car nerdery and it would be really cool to learn how it actually works.
CrunnchyVanManTight, I’ve been thinking something like that or a Lexus CT, literally something with a decent gas mileage cuz I’m spending $60 a week on gas rn and I can’t afford this shit especially with how fucked gas prices are rn
Yeah man, if you are considering the st....i'd recommend it. Pretty great balance of fun and utility. Of course, it will never beat out my old forester xt which was literally the perfect car...but it's speedy, has space, get's decent gas mileage if you aren't running high octane and beating on it and parts are cheap as shit.
Fit's the dog, bike, and skis and is pretty fun to bounce around town in. Solid 8/10 compared to my 04 XT which is a literal 10/10 and perfect car
CrunnchyVanManTight, I’ve been thinking something like that or a Lexus CT, literally something with a decent gas mileage cuz I’m spending $60 a week on gas rn and I can’t afford this shit especially with how fucked gas prices are rn
And I actually can't talk enough about how the TC on the focus blows me away. One of the best TC systems I've ever driven. The way it balances the throttle, torque, breaking etc is insane. Most cars are super choppy but this one it's like butter
However, I have driven a rwd U haul with all seasons and no weight in the bed through the mountains in a snowstorm. It wasn’t as bad as people say just gotta keep momentum and know how to drift. However you will lose gas mileage from spinning too much
IMO weight distribution matters more than anything. I got buddies that drive 2wd trucks with sandbags in the bed all winter with no problem at all. You can air your tires down if you need more grip was well. Just make sure whatever you get was well taken care of and reliable, another plus to not having 4x4 is things are way simpler to repair.
CaseyTrue the tire selection is huge in getting the most capability out of your car that you can. My Tacoma has 33” A/Ts and it does way better in the snow than my Cayenne that has a full center locking differential- mainly because the street tires just can’t grip shit they aren’t made to do it. But a front wheel drive sedan is only going to get you through so much without having to chain up. Idk about Wisconsin but in WA they require chains on the passes a shit ton, but AWD is almost always exempt.
Interesting because A/T tires are generally pretty shitty on ice and snow because of their compound, so even just decent all season tires will on average perform better than A/T tires, and winter tires of course even better. I'd also assume the tires on your tacoma are wider than on a Cayenne, and similarly the wider the tire, the worst it's going to handle on ice and snow. And then we have weight, the lighter the better too, but the Cayenne might be a tad heavier than your tacoma I'd think.
So on paper, one could assume the Cayenne would do better on snow/ice than the Tacoma.
A buddy of mine has a big ram 3500 with A/Ts and a Prius as a second car, and he basically would never takes the Prius on snow because he always assumed the truck would do better, but it's actually the complete opposite, the Prius is lighter with narrower all-season tires and does much better on snow/ice.
I think a lot of people share the same misconception tho. If you ever watch rally winter events, funy how small those guys are going when it comes to tires:
I love my rav4 for driving/gas mileage but it’s small enough where I can’t sleep in it (I’m 5’10)”. I Would check out the highlanders or just upgrade to a 4 runner. But 4 runner might be the same gas mileage as your van.
Sounds like it depends if your gonna sleep in your vehicle.
Monsieur_PatateInteresting because A/T tires are generally pretty shitty on ice and snow because of their compound, so even just decent all season tires will on average perform better than A/T tires, and winter tires of course even better. I'd also assume the tires on your tacoma are wider than on a Cayenne, and similarly the wider the tire, the worst it's going to handle on ice and snow. And then we have weight, the lighter the better too, but the Cayenne might be a tad heavier than your tacoma I'd think.
So on paper, one could assume the Cayenne would do better on snow/ice than the Tacoma.
A buddy of mine has a big ram 3500 with A/Ts and a Prius as a second car, and he basically would never takes the Prius on snow because he always assumed the truck would do better, but it's actually the complete opposite, the Prius is lighter with narrower all-season tires and does much better on snow/ice.
I think a lot of people share the same misconception tho. If you ever watch rally winter events, funy how small those guys are going when it comes to tires:
50KalI love my rav4 for driving/gas mileage but it’s small enough where I can’t sleep in it (I’m 5’10)”. I Would check out the highlanders or just upgrade to a 4 runner. But 4 runner might be the same gas mileage as your van.
Sounds like it depends if your gonna sleep in your vehicle.
I am probably gonna buy her 2012 rav with like 107k miles in a couple months if she find a nice Camry. Im like 5'8" so the rav is def sleepable
Yea I started out trying to find a land cruiser/Lexus but then once I started thinking about how much I already spend on gas it sounds awful, and also how fucking expensive they are, then went down to looking 4runner but the gas mileage still isn't too great. holy shit the rav gets good mileage, when drive together on the days she has school I am always surprised that a 60 mile round trip at 80mph barely puts a dent in her gas tank. whereas in the van it guzzles a fucking quarter tank (also the van cant drive over 75 otherwise it chugs along at 4k rpms, this is a flat ass drive through farmland too lmao)
my price range is like 10,000 for a vehicle so It kinda narrows it a little bit,I dont think I'll find a 4runner for that but its like commonplace for a good used rav4.
DingoSeanI don't know about flat ass wisconsin, but living in a mountainous place, I wouldnt buy anything without 4 wheel traction
yea thats a move, half the people here drive shitty Pontiacs so I guess it doesn't matter too much, I do drive up to the UP in winter faiiiirly often so it might be nice to have that extra traction. either way if I am going anywhere seriously snowy my dad says I can always take his truck so I'm pretty sure I could squeak by with a little hatchback or Prius just for my commute if buying my gf's rav doesn't work out
CrunnchyVanManI am probably gonna buy her 2012 rav with like 107k miles in a couple months if she find a nice Camry. Im like 5'8" so the rav is def sleepable
Yea I started out trying to find a land cruiser/Lexus but then once I started thinking about how much I already spend on gas it sounds awful, and also how fucking expensive they are, then went down to looking 4runner but the gas mileage still isn't too great. holy shit the rav gets good mileage, when drive together on the days she has school I am always surprised that a 60 mile round trip at 80mph barely puts a dent in her gas tank. whereas in the van it guzzles a fucking quarter tank (also the van cant drive over 75 otherwise it chugs along at 4k rpms, this is a flat ass drive through farmland too lmao)
my price range is like 10,000 for a vehicle so It kinda narrows it a little bit,I dont think I'll find a 4runner for that but its like commonplace for a good used rav4.
If you keep rpm under 3k as much as possible on any vehicle, it will substantially use less gas.
I was wounding how the hell your Transit van was guzzling gas.
Its a four cylinder right?
50KalIf you keep rpm under 3k as much as possible on any vehicle, it will substantially use less gas.
I was wounding how the hell your Transit van was guzzling gas.
Its a four cylinder right?
Monsieur_PatateInteresting because A/T tires are generally pretty shitty on ice and snow because of their compound, so even just decent all season tires will on average perform better than A/T tires, and winter tires of course even better. I'd also assume the tires on your tacoma are wider than on a Cayenne, and similarly the wider the tire, the worst it's going to handle on ice and snow. And then we have weight, the lighter the better too, but the Cayenne might be a tad heavier than your tacoma I'd think.
So on paper, one could assume the Cayenne would do better on snow/ice than the Tacoma.
A buddy of mine has a big ram 3500 with A/Ts and a Prius as a second car, and he basically would never takes the Prius on snow because he always assumed the truck would do better, but it's actually the complete opposite, the Prius is lighter with narrower all-season tires and does much better on snow/ice.
I think a lot of people share the same misconception tho. If you ever watch rally winter events, funy how small those guys are going when it comes to tires:
Well, photos could probably explain what I mean better anyway- DuraTrac is pretty chunky for an AT
CaseyWell, photos could probably explain what I mean better anyway- DuraTrac is pretty chunky for an AT
I run duratracs on my truck. Love that tire. Hardly even need 4 wheel drive and they last forever. I also air mine down in the winter because its a 3/4 ton and I don't pull much in the winter.
CrunnchyVanManI live in Wisconsin, and I need a new car, I do travel out of state to snowier areas (out west and the UP) fairly often, I currently have the beloved van but she is a thirsty girl and I need a car with better gas mileage for my 30 mile daily commute. The van is FWD with A/T tires and honestly slays in the snow, but part of me wants to get something all wheel drive like a forester or a rav4 or something along those lines. But for the sake of cost, gas mileage, and possibly getting like a hybrid hatchback or something I am considering looking towards another FWD car and just getting gnarly tires for it. Part of me still feels an AWD might be better just to have even tho its a little more costly. But snow has been shit up here the past few years and we have maybe 1 or 2 days per winter where roads are fully covered in more than 2 inches of snow.
I have a 2003 Forester with manual trans, and LSD rear diff. I have over 200,000 on it now.
Best in snow I have ever had.
Audi = money pit.
