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June, 2025

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Subaru peeps... I need your insight on this.

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weastcoat
Posts: 6509 - Karma: 75,460
aight. I’m making this thread bc I know a shit ton of skiers also have Subaru’s, specifically Subaru outbacks.

so this upcoming May, I plan on driving out to Mt. Hood (I’m too young to get a rental car in the state of Oregon if I were to fly out. That being said, if anyone knows how to rent as an 18 year old there, let me know).

I have a Subaru Outback, 2012 2.5L. It’s aight. Runs ok. She’s got 89K and counting on her. Rust here and there. Transmission is fine. A few months ago I had an issue with it overheating real bad. The shit legit just wouldn’t run once It got too hot, and it would start boiling the coolant. Turns out it was a combination of blown head gaskets, a plugged radiator, worn belts, bad water pump, and faulty thermostat. Yanno, typical used car shit. $2000 dollars and 2 months later, she’s running pretty good again.

My main question is, will my car be able to pull through for the homies and I, and make it 2600 miles one way from Pittsburgh to Govy, and then back 2 weeks later, given all the trouble it’s had? I ask because if something happens to fail like that again, and she breaks down in the middle or buttfuck nowhere, I am without a doubt, SHIT outta LUCK.

or... could I try to convince my mama and let me take her car instead (newer SUV with hardly any miles on it).

I would love to take the subie across the country for the ski trip of a lifetime, but I honestly don’t have full faith in her.

any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
Nah dog. Don't trust a car that shit it's headgaskets before 100k miles, even if you've had them replaced. That's not typical used car shit. That's typical subaru shit. Sell it and buy a crv or a rav 4 if you want reliability.
5 years ago
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theabortionator
Posts: 52723 - Karma: 175,359
I've been driving cross country with 200k+ mileage subarus for years. Currently an 06 forester and that's the newest one I've owned.

Idk just check you fluids and make sure she's good, don't beat on her. Cruise. Unless it's being fucjed for some reason right now I'd send it.

Don't slam it uo hills in the mtn if it's slowing down and wants to do 40 do 40. If you're careful should be fine unless the cars currently shot.
5 years ago
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weastcoat
Posts: 6509 - Karma: 75,460
BiffbarfNah dog. Don't trust a car that shit it's headgaskets before 100k miles, even if you've had them replaced. That's not typical used car shit. That's typical subaru shit. Sell it and buy a crv or a rav 4 if you want reliability.

I forgot to add, the head gaskets weren’t completely shit on, but they definitely showed some signs of replacement needed. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
5 years ago
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ColoradoDogfart
Posts: 2482 - Karma: 30,055
.

**This post was edited on Oct 21st 2020 at 1:22:11pm
5 years ago
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dripdroptop
Posts: 584 - Karma: 3,422
Pray to the Subaru gods and send it
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
weastcoastI forgot to add, the head gaskets weren’t completely shit on, but they definitely showed some signs of replacement needed. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.


Your headgaskets likely leaked, which cause your engine to consume/aerate the coolant which resulted in your overheating, 'signs of replacement needed' means they were hard fucked.

Subaru headgaskets are literally a meme. I would guess a vast majority of cars on the road have way more than 89k miles. You can rely on alot cars not to pop a headgasket for 200+k, of course there are exceptions but the fanboys who normalize it are hilarious.

I'm not trying to shit on you, but I have a deep hatred for subie's and I am entirely jealous that I am not in the income tax bracket where a car from 2012 with 89k miles is considered a beater.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
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5 years ago
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OregonDead
Posts: 7098 - Karma: 26,869
only 89k? Your car is basically new lol. Fix any known problem and then buy that roadside protection from your insurance so you can get a tow if something surprises you. Any car can have some random issues. Good to have a credit card or some cash for an emergency just in case but that is the same even if you have a new car or a rental
Send it!
5 years ago
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,606
Sounds like all the classic subie problems are fixed. Should be good for another 89,000 miles. Go for it. I'd do it mine and its at almost 200,000.
5 years ago
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Butterytips69
Posts: 732 - Karma: 8,237
I'm not trying to shit on you, but I have a deep hatred for subie's [/quote]

Thank you. I thought I was the only one
5 years ago
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CatdickBojangles
Posts: 6496 - Karma: 66,606
One of my buddies has an impreza wagon that blew head gaskets and he drove it across the country with them blown. I would not recommend that. He dropped a new motor in it a few weeks after getting back but that was why he decided to push it. And by some miracle it made it from Cali to Maryland.
5 years ago
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eheath
Posts: 61968 - Karma: 126,910
Biffbarf


Nice meme dump, I actually lol'd. I think i got lucky with my subaru legacy (2005) I never had issues with head gaskets, but I did have some rear-dif issues (went out twice) but otherwise it ran very well.
5 years ago
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weastcoat
Posts: 6509 - Karma: 75,460
BiffbarfI'm not trying to shit on you, but I have a deep hatred for subie's and I am entirely jealous that I am not in the income tax bracket where a car from 2012 with 89k miles is considered a beater.


Butterytips69I'm not trying to shit on you, but I have a deep hatred for subie's

Thank you. I thought I was the only one


After this I’m not too sure if I see myself buying a Subaru again. And I can’t even consider it a beater... it’s the only thing I have and I haven’t even paid it off yet.
5 years ago
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eheath
Posts: 61968 - Karma: 126,910
I forgot to add, OP you'll be fine dude, like many have said you fixed the problems, you shouldn't have any issues for quite some time.
5 years ago
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Cahal
Posts: 945 - Karma: 594
Idk anything about cars but i would do it. Sounds like you fixed the problems and people have used worse before. or maybe trade cars with your momma for the trip.
5 years ago
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1234567891011121
Posts: 1750 - Karma: 13,850
My friends subie blew the gaskets at around 180k and hes gotten it to 210k, same exact car. Just make sure everything is in tact and go for it you should be fine.
5 years ago
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thateastcoastski
Posts: 63 - Karma: 194
as long as ur head gaskets were fixed and ur car doesn’t overheat anymore you’ll be fine. my subie s head gaskets just started leaking coolant lol. got a lot of work ahead of me here pretty soon
5 years ago
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Abu_Hajaar
Posts: 2751 - Karma: 3,908
Completely riffing here, but.... Maybe up your insurance policy before you send it, then send it. If something breaks, you’ll at least be covered and if not you can go back to cheapo coverage in a few months. (I have no idea if this would work)
5 years ago
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skierman_jack
Posts: 1671 - Karma: 17,559
My Subaru has 268k on the stock ej25 and stock 5mt. Your Subaru will be more than fine. The key to preventing head gasket failure is: don’t let your car sit unused for long periods of time, always warm your engine up before driving, and change oil at least every 5k. The head gasket failure problem is caused by 2 issues. 1: the Ej25 block blueprint is just a bored/slightly stroked open deck 2.0/2.2l block, so there is less surface area for the head gasket to make contact with the block/heads making it more prone to failure. 2: because of the horizontally opposed nature of the EJ platform, oil and coolant will sit against the headgaskets when the engine is not running. This is not a big deal but if you don’t regularly circulate/change your oil and coolant, it will develop impurities that will corrode the head gasket.

the biggest weak point of 2.5l Subaru’s is the engine. If your engine was just done up, you’re good for 200k miles at least given the shell doesn’t rot out.
5 years ago
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11955 - Karma: 12,308
SkylineGTR_R32My Subaru has 268k on the stock ej25 and stock 5mt. Your Subaru will be more than fine. The key to preventing head gasket failure is: don’t let your car sit unused for long periods of time, always warm your engine up before driving, and change oil at least every 5k. The head gasket failure problem is caused by 2 issues. 1: the Ej25 block blueprint is just a bored/slightly stroked open deck 2.0/2.2l block, so there is less surface area for the head gasket to make contact with the block/heads making it more prone to failure. 2: because of the horizontally opposed nature of the EJ platform, oil and coolant will sit against the headgaskets when the engine is not running. This is not a big deal but if you don’t regularly circulate/change your oil and coolant, it will develop impurities that will corrode the head gasket.

the biggest weak point of 2.5l Subaru’s is the engine. If your engine was just done up, you’re good for 200k miles at least given the shell doesn’t rot out.


Boxer engines are dookie IMO.


As for the rental portion you are correct. Some states allow you to rent at 18 but the rental companies will charge you extra and you can’t take their insurance.


It’s risky, id almost say set aside some extra cash to buy another used car if yours shits the bed.
5 years ago
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,606
SkylineGTR_R32My Subaru has 268k on the stock ej25 and stock 5mt. Your Subaru will be more than fine. The key to preventing head gasket failure is: don’t let your car sit unused for long periods of time, always warm your engine up before driving, and change oil at least every 5k. The head gasket failure problem is caused by 2 issues. 1: the Ej25 block blueprint is just a bored/slightly stroked open deck 2.0/2.2l block, so there is less surface area for the head gasket to make contact with the block/heads making it more prone to failure. 2: because of the horizontally opposed nature of the EJ platform, oil and coolant will sit against the headgaskets when the engine is not running. This is not a big deal but if you don’t regularly circulate/change your oil and coolant, it will develop impurities that will corrode the head gasket.

the biggest weak point of 2.5l Subaru’s is the engine. If your engine was just done up, you’re good for 200k miles at least given the shell doesn’t rot out.

All of this is accurate. Subies are great cars, if you put the maintwnce time into them. Not a car you can just drive carelessly without being on top of things. If buying used have a mechanic check things out before you finalize the purchase. Just have to be really anal about stuff and your car will pay you back by plowing through snowstorms while the truck guys struggle.
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfNah dog. Don't trust a car that shit it's headgaskets before 100k miles, even if you've had them replaced. That's not typical used car shit. That's typical subaru shit. Sell it and buy a crv or a rav 4 if you want reliability.


This is totally wrong. I will say it seems like OP didn't take care of the vehicle at all, but the head gaskets are a known issue on this engine. MOST Subaru owners know this and fix it before it happens. The gasket is replaced with the one used on the turbo and the issue will never happen again once it is fixed.

When shopping for used Outbacks, I always ask if the repair has been done and if not the price should be ~1.5k lower.
5 years ago
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weastcoat
Posts: 6509 - Karma: 75,460
skiindianaThis is totally wrong. I will say it seems like OP didn't take care of the vehicle at all, but the head gaskets are a known issue on this engine. MOST Subaru owners know this and fix it before it happens. The gasket is replaced with the one used on the turbo and the issue will never happen again once it is fixed.

When shopping for used Outbacks, I always ask if the repair has been done and if not the price should be ~1.5k lower.

Nah I bought it when it had 67K miles on it. Previous owners changed oil every 4000 miles and took good care of it. I’ve done the same, but it overheated once or twice due to a faulty thermostat and plugged radiator, and I think that was what really damaged the gaskets to a point where they needed replaced. I got the new gaskets put on and it still overheated a few days later to where all the dash codes came up, I took it back and the mechanic threw a Subaru certified thermostat on for free. Ever since it’s had no issues, that was about 3 months ago and I’ve put 3000 miles on it since.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaThis is totally wrong. I will say it seems like OP didn't take care of the vehicle at all, but the head gaskets are a known issue on this engine. MOST Subaru owners know this and fix it before it happens. The gasket is replaced with the one used on the turbo and the issue will never happen again once it is fixed.

When shopping for used Outbacks, I always ask if the repair has been done and if not the price should be ~1.5k lower.

1.) Most subaru owners are middle age white women who couldn't tell the difference between a headgasket and a muffler bearing
2.) There is too much margine for error to claim replacing the stock headgasket with an MLS unit is a reliable option. This requires a shop to prep the heads and block to the correct surface finish to guarantee a proper seal. I'm not saying all shops don't do this, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty that dont and half-ass the job only leading to problems down the road.

Subaru fanboys who try to normalize this shit are hilarious.
5 years ago
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CalumSKI
Posts: 4383 - Karma: 26,157
haha fa20 flat 4 best engine
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
Biffbarf1.) Most subaru owners are middle age white women who couldn't tell the difference between a headgasket and a muffler bearing
2.) There is too much margine for error to claim replacing the stock headgasket with an MLS unit is a reliable option. This requires a shop to prep the heads and block to the correct surface finish to guarantee a proper seal. I'm not saying all shops don't do this, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty that dont and half-ass the job only leading to problems down the road.

Subaru fanboys who try to normalize this shit are hilarious.


I think you're complicating it. The fix affects a few engines - well known years and trims. Middle aged lady or not, you should know the basic common issues in your vehicle and at minimum you should be taking it to a mechanic that will tell you normal interval maintenance. It is usually recommended to be done when the water pump and timing belt are done. It's like a 1k repair on an engine that will go to 300k if you do that fix.

As for OP, I think 2012 is actually outside the HG issue. I don't want to dig at them, but it sounds like they were letting it overheat or let something dirty get into the radiator. That's not a Subaru problem .
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaI think you're complicating it. The fix affects a few engines - well known years and trims. Middle aged lady or not, you should know the basic common issues in your vehicle and at minimum you should be taking it to a mechanic that will tell you normal interval maintenance. It is usually recommended to be done when the water pump and timing belt are done. It's like a 1k repair on an engine that will go to 300k if you do that fix.

As for OP, I think 2012 is actually outside the HG issue. I don't want to dig at them, but it sounds like they were letting it overheat or let something dirty get into the radiator. That's not a Subaru problem .


LMAO no no, the headgasket issue definitely wasn't from a manufacture that historically didn't get their shit right, it was from something dirty in the radiator at only 80k. Rightttt.... Also, a crv or rav 4 has a 300k engine that doesn't even need a timing belt replaced. cmon man. HG's aren't routine maintenance unless you're a subaru autist. Some of their engines are more prone to failure than others, but overall they're mostly fucking garb.

You're trolling right? please tell me you're trolling.
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfLMAO no no, the headgasket issue definitely wasn't from a manufacture that historically didn't get their shit right, it was from something dirty in the radiator at only 80k. Rightttt.... Also, a crv or rav 4 has a 300k engine that doesn't even need a timing belt replaced. cmon man. HG's aren't routine maintenance unless you're a subaru autist. Some of their engines are more prone to failure than others, but overall they're mostly fucking garb.

You're trolling right? please tell me you're trolling.

You genuinely don't know what you're talking about... The issue with the head gaskets for some models and trims is basically a recall. You HAVE to fix it before around 100-120k miles. OP has a 2012, which is not affected by this issue. If their head gaskets went it is probably from something they did, like overheating the engine, which they said is what happened.

The HG repair is straightforward and you can literally watch people do it in their garage on youtube.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaYou genuinely don't know what you're talking about... The issue with the head gaskets for some models and trims is basically a recall. You HAVE to fix it before around 100-120k miles. OP has a 2012, which is not affected by this issue. If their head gaskets went it is probably from something they did, like overheating the engine, which they said is what happened.

The HG repair is straightforward and you can literally watch people do it in their garage on youtube.


Straightforward as dropping an engine to pull off twice the amount of cylinder heads a 4cyl engine should ever have.

You're clueless bro, but keep drinking the subi koolaid. Turn a wrench before you reply again
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfStraightforward as dropping an engine to pull off twice the amount of cylinder heads a 4cyl engine should ever have.

You're clueless bro, but keep drinking the subi koolaid. Turn a wrench before you reply again


You seem offended by me just telling you basic facts. The Subaru HG issue is a known thing. Talk to a mechanic. Toyota/Honda/Subaru are by far the most reliable brands, but each one has KNOWN issues with certain year/models/trims that have required upkeep to get them to 300k.

Honda has a history of models with KNOWN transmission issues - I know because my parents had one of them. Sometimes there is an issue and it just has to get fixed. That doesn't suddenly make the entire brand unreliable.

If you buy a car, you should know what issues are common, but this is totally irrelevant because OP has a 2012 and it sounds like they overheated the engine.
5 years ago
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,606
skiindianaYou seem offended by me just telling you basic facts. The Subaru HG issue is a known thing. Talk to a mechanic. Toyota/Honda/Subaru are by far the most reliable brands, but each one has KNOWN issues with certain year/models/trims that have required upkeep to get them to 300k.

Honda has a history of models with KNOWN transmission issues - I know because my parents had one of them. Sometimes there is an issue and it just has to get fixed. That doesn't suddenly make the entire brand unreliable.

If you buy a car, you should know what issues are common, but this is totally irrelevant because OP has a 2012 and it sounds like they overheated the engine.


Lol. I love my Subies but would never say they are anywhere close to Toyota and Honda for reliability. That's funny.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaYou seem offended by me just telling you basic facts. The Subaru HG issue is a known thing. Talk to a mechanic. Toyota/Honda/Subaru are by far the most reliable brands, but each one has KNOWN issues with certain year/models/trims that have required upkeep to get them to 300k.

Honda has a history of models with KNOWN transmission issues - I know because my parents had one of them. Sometimes there is an issue and it just has to get fixed. That doesn't suddenly make the entire brand unreliable.

If you buy a car, you should know what issues are common, but this is totally irrelevant because OP has a 2012 and it sounds like they overheated the engine.


Talk to a mechanic? Bro. You are the definition of ignorant. But keep simping for an irrelevant car company.
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfTalk to a mechanic? Bro. You are the definition of ignorant. But keep simping for an irrelevant car company.


So late 90s early 2000s Honda don't have a transmission issue at all right? I mean that would be crazy, how could a car ever need anything other than an oil change right?!
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
r00kieLol. I love my Subies but would never say they are anywhere close to Toyota and Honda for reliability. That's funny.


You'd be surprised. We pretty much only buy high-mileage Toyota and Subarus. My GF has a Forester with 250k and no signs of stopping.

Subarus are certainly not like Tacomas where the used market is so crazy you should just buy new, but especially in Colorado high-mileage Subarus are more expensive than CRVs for sure even though the Outback is the best selling car in the state.
5 years ago
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skierman_jack
Posts: 1671 - Karma: 17,559
People who hate one Subaru’s are funny to me. If head gasket sand timing belt/water pump is the only things you gotta worry about for 300k miles that’s a win to me. I’m sure Honda’s and Toyota’s are better, but the difference in service costs at 200k isn’t going to be that much more or less
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
SkylineGTR_R32People who hate one Subaru’s are funny to me. If head gasket sand timing belt/water pump is the only things you gotta worry about for 300k miles that’s a win to me. I’m sure Honda’s and Toyota’s are better, but the difference in service costs at 200k isn’t going to be that much more or less


Literally any engine will last 300k if at one or multiple points you completely rebuild it minus the rotating assembly. This is such a nonsensical arguement. And most cars have engines that you don't have to remove just to do a headgasket job.

But hey you do you. I'll enjoy not spending thousands on a top end rebuild while getting 250k out of my vehicles with basic maintenance.
5 years ago
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HypeBeast
Posts: 10097 - Karma: 76,795
Didn't read any other comments because my answer is YES. you will be fine. You got a 2012 with less than 100k miles that was just in for probably more than actually needed fixed. Your subie is in tip top shape. Send er. If you're worried, just don't drive like a maniac
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfLiterally any engine will last 300k if at one or multiple points you completely rebuild it minus the rotating assembly. This is such a nonsensical arguement. And most cars have engines that you don't have to remove just to do a headgasket job.

But hey you do you. I'll enjoy not spending thousands on a top end rebuild while getting 250k out of my vehicles with basic maintenance.


Replacing a gasket is not an engine rebuild. Dude what is with the hyperbole. Just don't buy a Subaru it's fine.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaReplacing a gasket is not an engine rebuild. Dude what is with the hyperbole. Just don't buy a Subaru it's fine.

I literally said minus the rotating assembly. The only thing that seperates a headgasket job from a complete rebuild is rings/bearings (in the rotating assembly) and MAYBE valves and guides in the head.

Have you ever built an engine? It's pretty obvious the answer is no
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfI literally said minus the rotating assembly. The only thing that seperates a headgasket job from a complete rebuild is rings/bearings (in the rotating assembly) and MAYBE valves and guides in the head.

Have you ever built an engine? It's pretty obvious the answer is no

I've replaced a head gasket. It's not a rebuild The block never leaves the mounts. Stop being dramatic
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaI've replaced a head gasket. It's not a rebuild The block never leaves the mounts. Stop being dramatic


It's not a rebuild the block never leaves it's mounts? You know you can do entire rebuilds without a block leaving it's mounts on most engines that aren't horizontally opposed, right? Thats your criteria?

I'm not being dramatic dude. To replace a headgasket the correct way is a task that your average yokel can't do without half-assing.

You're just a subaru autist who justifies shit design like women try to justify shit boyfriends.
5 years ago
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cyphers
Posts: 1865 - Karma: 21,444
skiindianaI've replaced a head gasket. It's not a rebuild The block never leaves the mounts. Stop being dramatic


ns was better while you were gone
5 years ago
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,606
skiindianaI've replaced a head gasket. It's not a rebuild The block never leaves the mounts. Stop being dramatic

Once the head is off 85% of the disassembly is done lol. All that's left is oil pan, crank, and pistons.
5 years ago
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11955 - Karma: 12,308
BiffbarfYou're just a subaru autist who justifies shit design like women try to justify shit boyfriends.


Might need to quote this lol
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
Charlie_KellyMight need to quote this lol

Go for it lmao

And don't get me wrong, subarus are great enthusiasts vehicles and I've owned my far share of shitbox enthusiast vehicles, but trying to marginalize issues with vehicles because you're passionate about them is foolish.

**This post was edited on Oct 22nd 2020 at 9:03:00pm
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfGo for it lmao

And don't get me wrong, subarus are great enthusiasts vehicles and I've owned my far share of shitbox enthusiast vehicles, but trying to marginalize issues with vehicles because you're passionate about them is foolish.

**This post was edited on Oct 22nd 2020 at 9:03:00pm


My honda only needs oil changes. Never had a transmission issue in the history of the brand.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaMy honda only needs oil changes. Never had a transmission issue in the history of the brand.


I have no idea why you think another manufacturers shortcomings make subaru's ok. Even toyota's had engines with headgasket issues (7mgte and 3vz) but they've been remedied with entirely new series of engines that have proved to be some of the greatest ever produced (like the 1/2jz and 5vz). Even when perfected, boxers are cumbersome and unnecessarily complex UNLESS, wait for it, you're an enthusiast who wants the lower center of gravity and transaxle.
5 years ago
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skiindiana
Posts: 741 - Karma: -3,752
BiffbarfI have no idea why you think another manufacturers shortcomings make subaru's ok. Even toyota's had engines with headgasket issues (7mgte and 3vz) but they've been remedied with entirely new series of engines that have proved to be some of the greatest ever produced (like the 1/2jz and 5vz). Even when perfected, boxers are cumbersome and unnecessarily complex UNLESS, wait for it, you're an enthusiast who wants the lower center of gravity and transaxle.

And Subaru engines don't have head gasket issues after 2011...

Seriously you're just a hater man.
5 years ago
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 80,954
skiindianaAnd Subaru engines don't have head gasket issues after 2011...

Seriously you're just a hater man.


Hater, maybe.

But subaru's fucked up unapologetically enough that they deserve it. If it was a car in the lineup that was a lemon, whatever it happens. But they used ej's across their lineup that blew headgaskets and shit ringlands for more than a decade.
5 years ago
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