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Atomic Mimic Liners

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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
For about the last 5 years, Atomic has been working hard at figuring out how to make liners more comfortable, have a longer lasting fit, and be more customizable so you can have the exact fit you need. For the 20/21 season, we are introducing a new customization technology called Mimic.




Mimic liners offer the same exact first fit as our current 3D liners but with the added benefit of complete customization in the ankle/heel area, tongue and calf. Not only is this customization complete, but it is done in a matter of minutes with the existing Memory Fit oven, is repeatable and mess free.

Normal “3D“ liners only mold to the ankle/leg due to the heat-moldable EVA foams used in their construction- the actual 3D shape does not change. Having a liner that fully molds around the ankle/leg has been traditionally found in foam injection liners (liners where foam is pumped into the liner). While this is 100% custom, these liners are very expensive, often associated with a high risk of mistakes being made, and can be messy. Mimic liners offer the best of both worlds: complete customization that is done in an easy and repeatable way without any mess.

Mimic technology is not a foam, but instead a special material that softens when heated and fully hardens when cooled. This means that when it forms to your ankle area, your shin, your instep, and your calf, you get a shape that is 100% yours and it stays that way. There still are heat-moldable foams in Mimic liners, just like our normal 3D liners have, but Mimic is the proverbial magic that ensures your fit happens the way it should.

To demonstrate just how moldable the Mimic material is, I would often show a Mimic prototype that had its ankle area squished and my fingertips would be imprinted in the liner itself (you can see this in the below picture).


I would also flare out a tongue to show that not only will it wrap around a skinny leg but also fit a larger leg (upper picture with red tongue is the standard shape, lower picture shows a widened tongue)




Ultimately, Mimic liners will ensure that you have your fit comfortably captured in the liner and hardened in place. This means you can have a comfortable fit that performs at its best.



For the 20/21 season, Mimic liners will be found in men’s & women’s Hawx Ultra, Hawx Ultra XTD, Hawx Prime and Hawx Prime XTD boots. The liners will also be available separately if you already have one of those boots and just want to upgrade the liner.



If you want to hear more about Mimic liners, check out the podcast I did with Jonathan Ellsworth over at Blister Gear Review: https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/a-very-deep-dive-on-ski-boots-part-4-liners-ramp-angle-forward-lean-ep-88#comment-434282



And as always, feel free to drop any questions below and I will do my best to answer them for you.

**This thread was edited on Feb 23rd 2020 at 1:08:22pm
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Ckirchner45Does the material expand to mold around the foot like the intuition liners? And if it is does it re-expand with each heat or just make it malleable to adjust the fit of the liner?


Intuition liners completely rely on EVA foam expanding and compressing to get your foot shape into the liner. Their foam is nothing unique (for at least 6 or 7 years they haven't used Ultralon foam, it's normal EVA out of China) and it doesn't ski as well as a traditional liner.

Heat moldable EVA foam is only part of the equation in a Mimic liner- it's what we use close to the foot and it does expand and compress as needed. But the real key to Mimic is the hard thermo-formable layer in the ankle/heel, reshapeable plastic tongue, and reshapeable plastic cuff. These areas reshape and harden in their new shape, locking you in to your exact fit and staying that way long term.

Because this hard material fully changes shape and hardens in that shape, you will have a liner that molds exactly to your foot & leg and provides way more power transmission than an Intuition liner ever could.
5 years ago
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Thomson.
Posts: 4634 - Karma: 227
@onenerdykid how important is it to get the mimic liners molded with the new tools (sock, toe cap, etc.)? Having trouble finding a shop in SLC with these new pieces. Any that say they do are trying to charge like $100 just to mold liners..... Don't need to do the shells, just the liners. Can I get by with the old methods? Any risks?
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Thomson.@onenerdykid how important is it to get the mimic liners molded with the new tools (sock, toe cap, etc.)? Having trouble finding a shop in SLC with these new pieces. Any that say they do are trying to charge like $100 just to mold liners..... Don't need to do the shells, just the liners. Can I get by with the old methods? Any risks?


A Mimic liner will require our process and tools to get the job done in order to prevent any fit or quality issues from arising. The fitting process itself is pretty straight forward, but rather specific in order to give you the best results. If our process isn't followed or the wrong tools are used, then it can lead to issues (which is true for basically any high-end liner customization process). Our oven will need to be used at the temperature & duration we specify- normal heat stacks or hot air blowers aren't good enough because they heat from the inside out and the real Mimic material is near the outside. We make toe caps, liner socks, and a shoe horn to make the liner installation and you stepping into the boot go as smoothly & as possible. Without them (or exact substitutes) there will be risks during the fitting process. So if shops don't have the right tools for the job, then it will most likely lead to a sub-par result and you'll be pretty bummed about that. We've done a lot of training for retailers that have brought Mimic in, so at least you'll know that the shops which have the tools will do it right and you'll have an awesome fitting boot when it's all said and done.
5 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
I live in Greece . I read your post and listened to the podcast. I have a pair of new Ultar's . I bought the Mimic liners over the internet , from Sportler.com in Italy . There where no instructions on how to do it.I reread your posts and you say that we have to go to an Atomic dealer and they will give us a video of the ' how to ' . There is no such dealer in Greece , as far as Iknow .I wrote to Atomic in Europe but ,as I expected , there was no reply . I will go for skiing in Italy , but I don think that I can just drop into a ski shop that sells ski boots and tell them ' hey I bought these over the internet , can you fix it for me? '
If you can give me any advice I would appreciate it .Otherwise I will bake them for 5 min as the guy in the podcast said and see what happens ?
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LeantLacticI live in Greece . I read your post and listened to the podcast. I have a pair of new Ultar's . I bought the Mimic liners over the internet , from Sportler.com in Italy . There where no instructions on how to do it.I reread your posts and you say that we have to go to an Atomic dealer and they will give us a video of the ' how to ' . There is no such dealer in Greece , as far as Iknow .I wrote to Atomic in Europe but ,as I expected , there was no reply . I will go for skiing in Italy , but I don think that I can just drop into a ski shop that sells ski boots and tell them ' hey I bought these over the internet , can you fix it for me? '
If you can give me any advice I would appreciate it .Otherwise I will bake them for 5 min as the guy in the podcast said and see what happens ?


Hey man, I appreciate the support and you picking up a pair of new Mimic liners. While this liner technology ultimately benefits you, it is not designed or developed to be done at home. A Mimic liner requires a specific oven and other necessary tools in order to do it properly and ensure you get the best results, which is why we don’t include directions with the boot for end users to do it at home. The process is rather straight forward for trained boot-fitters, but if it is not done correctly it can lead to legit problems (just like any other high-end customizable liner). The "How To" video is a training aid for boot-fitters who work in shops, not for end users to do it at home.

Definitely do not attempt to fit the liner at home by yourself- you will ruin it. The best way to get the liner properly fitted to you, is to call shops in the area you will be skiing and make an appointment with a shop that has been trained in the Mimic liner fitting process. Any shop that is trained in this can do the process for you, but you should assume they will charge you for the service, which I’m sure they can discuss with you when you make the appointment.

The good news is that, when it is done correctly, you will have an awesome fitting liner and hopefully have an equally awesome ski season.
5 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
Thank you very much for your reply. My anwer to your reply , however , is that since the case is such , Atomic should not sell the Mimic liner directly to the public through the internet , but rather on ski boot shops strictly . You could advertise it extensively but not sell it publicly. It could make damage to the company . That is my opinion.
Could I , at least , replace my Ultra Gold liner with the Mimic ? I have the Ultra 110S . And when I go to Italy , because in Greece I do not think it can be done ,try to find a ski boot shop that can do the baking ? Will it be ok ? Or shoudn't I do it .
5 years ago
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Jagt
Posts: 6 - Karma: 13
Is there any difference between the women's and men's version of these? I can only find the W version in my size.

Also, do you size up or down according to shell size? I'm in 25.5 Ultra XTD's.
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LeantLacticCould I , at least , replace my Ultra Gold liner with the Mimic ? I have the Ultra 110S . And when I go to Italy , because in Greece I do not think it can be done ,try to find a ski boot shop that can do the baking ? Will it be ok ? Or shoudn't I do it .


A Mimic liner can be skied without doing the Mimic fitting process. The first fit and general construction is exactly the same as a normal 3D liner- we simply take out certain materials from the 3D version and substitute them with Mimic materials, 1:1. In other words, if you had a Mimic Platinum liner and a 3D Platinum liner, the out of the box fit is the same. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. The difference is in the customization potential, when the fitting process happens. So, it's totally ok to take out the original 3D Gold liner that came in the boot, put the Mimic Platinum liner in and go skiing. The only thing you should take into consideration is that there will be a few days of break-in period but that is true for any new liner being skied out of the box without any fitting done to it.
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
JagtIs there any difference between the women's and men's version of these? I can only find the W version in my size.

Also, do you size up or down according to shell size? I'm in 25.5 Ultra XTD's.


The women's version is lower by 15mm and is more open (tulip shaped) than the men's version in the same size. Both of these aspects match the women's boot cuff, so if you put a women's liner into the men's shell, then it won't fit in the cuff properly.
5 years ago
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LaFe
Posts: 32 - Karma: 78
Can it be modified to fit 2 completely different foot?
My left foot is 2 sizes smaller.. so far I got a hand crafted one (expensive!!! :( ) I am super happy but they are heavy as hell and suck for touring since they are meant to be pure racing boots, but at least I get no blisters!

Will those fit into touring boots and make it possible to fit two completely different feet with one pair of shoes?

thanks!
5 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LaFeCan it be modified to fit 2 completely different foot?
My left foot is 2 sizes smaller.. so far I got a hand crafted one (expensive!!! :( ) I am super happy but they are heavy as hell and suck for touring since they are meant to be pure racing boots, but at least I get no blisters!

Will those fit into touring boots and make it possible to fit two completely different feet with one pair of shoes?

thanks!


Unfortunately no - if one of your feet is two sizes smaller than the other (meaning one foot is 44 and the other is 42) then you will always be looking for two different sizes.
5 years ago
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denimnerd
Posts: 3 - Karma: 35
I know this is not @onenerdykid approved but thought it was worth sharing regardless.

I had been skiing these Hawx Ultra 130s boots for 30 days before touching the liners and really felt like I'd benefit from the mimic plastic conforming to my shin and foot. My foot is very narrow and my ankle and shin are low volume. The mimic tongue pieces was not conforming that well to my shin and thought I'd benefit from them doing so.

I went to a few shops around my area and they gave me blank stares when I asked about mimic liners even though they have Atomic boots with Mimic on the boot wall. I was hesitant to DIY because @onenerdykid said not to, but faced with no other options I gave it a shot.

I did an A/B skiing test with the left molded and right unmolded. The process was I stole some stretchy panty hose from my wife, cut them, and put them over the liner like in the Japanese demo video. Then 7minutes in my home convection oven at 240deg. F. At 5 minutes they didn't feel quite moldable yet so I stuck them back in for another 2. Your mileage may vary. Then I put them in my boot and fastened them like I might wear to ski but not cranked down. I then put some forward pressure into the boots for a couples minutes and then gave them another 15 to cool down just sitting there on my feet. Then I gave them a couple hours to setup before skiing on them.

So I skied on them for 2 days now and wow! what a difference. I molded the 2nd after the first day as the difference was so good I was making mistakes on the unmolded foot. I ended up needing to buckle all my buckles 1 slot tighter but in doing so the fit was more comfortable than before. There was no longer any sensation of the boot twisting around my foot and the heel pocket is a lot more secure.

I think the only mod left is there is a little plastic that overhangs on both sides of the top mimic pieces. if I trim that off then the liners will fit even better. Right now those two pieces are meeting in the middle and I don't think it's allowing the fit to be as good as it could be.

The little part over the top of the foot that is all wrinkled is no big deal. It's still flexible and can't be felt.









**This post was edited on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:33:25pm

**This post was edited on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:34:46pm
4 years ago
4 0
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
denimnerdI know this is not @onenerdykid approved but thought it was worth sharing regardless.

I had been skiing these Hawx Ultra 130s boots for 30 days before touching the liners and really felt like I'd benefit from the mimic plastic conforming to my shin and foot. My foot is very narrow and my ankle and shin are low volume. The mimic tongue pieces was not conforming that well to my shin and thought I'd benefit from them doing so.

I went to a few shops around my area and they gave me blank stares when I asked about mimic liners even though they have Atomic boots with Mimic on the boot wall. I was hesitant to DIY because @onenerdykid said not to, but faced with no other options I gave it a shot.

I did an A/B skiing test with the left molded and right unmolded. The process was I stole some stretchy panty hose from my wife, cut them, and put them over the liner like in the Japanese demo video. Then 7minutes in my home convection oven at 240deg. F. At 5 minutes they didn't feel quite moldable yet so I stuck them back in for another 2. Your mileage may vary. Then I put them in my boot and fastened them like I might wear to ski but not cranked down. I then put some forward pressure into the boots for a couples minutes and then gave them another 15 to cool down just sitting there on my feet. Then I gave them a couple hours to setup before skiing on them.

So I skied on them for 2 days now and wow! what a difference. I molded the 2nd after the first day as the difference was so good I was making mistakes on the unmolded foot. I ended up needing to buckle all my buckles 1 slot tighter but in doing so the fit was more comfortable than before. There was no longer any sensation of the boot twisting around my foot and the heel pocket is a lot more secure.

I think the only mod left is there is a little plastic that overhangs on both sides of the top mimic pieces. if I trim that off then the liners will fit even better. Right now those two pieces are meeting in the middle and I don't think it's allowing the fit to be as good as it could be.

The little part over the top of the foot that is all wrinkled is no big deal. It's still flexible and can't be felt.

**This post was edited on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:33:25pm

**This post was edited on Feb 18th 2021 at 6:34:46pm

I will always strongly recommend people get fit by shops that have been properly trained- this year is obviously challenging due to COVID wreaking havoc on the normal flow of training and such, so I can understand when this needs to happen. When our training process is followed and the proper tools are used, we avoid getting the wrinkles that you see in your toe box. But, even with those wrinkles, it is external and often not felt internally. What you can do is GENTLY take a heat gun to the toe box area and then stuff it with newspaper to push it back into shape.

But, super glad you have experienced the difference between how a liner fits out of the box and once it has been through the Mimic fitting process. You can even see it in the plastic cuff of your liner - it wraps exactly to the shape of your leg and stays there. The Mimic plastic in the ankle & heel area follows exactly your ankle & heel shape, the tongue now matches your instep and shin, and the plastic cuff now matches your calf & leg shape.

Glad it mostly worked out for you!
4 years ago
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denimnerd
Posts: 3 - Karma: 35
@onenerdykid

Yeah I think the toe box wrinkles are just because my foot is low volume so when the buckles on top come down they wrinkle that part. The wrinkled part is really flexible so it's not felt at all.

I'm actually surprised the toe box feels snugger. I was afraid I would loosen it up in an attempt to mold the cuff but the whole thing feels better from toes to shin.

I think this technology is awesome though and once everyone is familiar with it I think it will make these boots a go-to for an easy long lasting fit.

**This post was edited on Feb 19th 2021 at 12:29:30pm
4 years ago
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Trefin
Posts: 113 - Karma: 257
Im needing new liners in my dalbello lupo pro hd, which mimic liner should i be looking at? im currently undecided whether i should get an intuition tour liner or a mimic liner, but youve pretty much sold me on the mimic.
4 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
TrefinIm needing new liners in my dalbello lupo pro hd, which mimic liner should i be looking at? im currently undecided whether i should get an intuition tour liner or a mimic liner, but youve pretty much sold me on the mimic.


Normal Mimic liners are most likely best paired with the respective Atomic boot they were built for. There's a chance a Mimic liner for a Hawx Ultra could fit into other 98mm boots, but it might not turn out well because their construction doesn't expand, it simply changes shape.

If you want a liner that truly conforms to anything you put it in to, that will be our new Mimic Professional liners that will debut for 21/22.
4 years ago
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matthewshockey
Posts: 2 - Karma: 11
@onenerdykid
For touring performance, how much difference does the neoprene insert on the back of the Ultra Xtd Mimic liners make, as opposed to the non-Xtd version? Is it a subtle difference? I ordered the Xtd version from an online retailer, but they accidentally sent me the non-Xtd liner. I’m debating just keeping the ones they sent me.
4 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
matthewshockey@onenerdykid
For touring performance, how much difference does the neoprene insert on the back of the Ultra Xtd Mimic liners make, as opposed to the non-Xtd version? Is it a subtle difference? I ordered the Xtd version from an online retailer, but they accidentally sent me the non-Xtd liner. I’m debating just keeping the ones they sent me.

The cut out that an XTD version has definitely helps. I would try to get the right version for your needs, so see if they can send you the correct one.
4 years ago
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matthewshockey
Posts: 2 - Karma: 11
onenerdykidThe cut out that an XTD version has definitely helps. I would try to get the right version for your needs, so see if they can send you the correct one.


Thanks! I kind of suspected that. This was the only place online that I could find the liners, and they’re saying that they’d be willing to either refund me or exchange for the correct ones, except that they actually don’t have the correct one and are going to see if they can get them. However, I know from calling 20 or so Atomic dealers (actually tried to go brick ‘n’ mortar first) that the stock is looking pretty sparse for this season’s run. Any hot tips on where to look, trees to bark up? Sorry for turning this into a customer service thread 😂
4 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
matthewshockeyThanks! I kind of suspected that. This was the only place online that I could find the liners, and they’re saying that they’d be willing to either refund me or exchange for the correct ones, except that they actually don’t have the correct one and are going to see if they can get them. However, I know from calling 20 or so Atomic dealers (actually tried to go brick ‘n’ mortar first) that the stock is looking pretty sparse for this season’s run. Any hot tips on where to look, trees to bark up? Sorry for turning this into a customer service thread 😂

Because of covid, this year was particularly difficult for having extra stock or re-order potential. Atomic USA's supply of aftermarket Mimic liners basically evaporated by early December and it wasn't possible to get more into the country given all of the problems in Europe.

So at this time of the year, things are unfortunately looking pretty bleak. It will really come down to seeing what retailers have left in stock.
4 years ago
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 5095 - Karma: 18,661
onenerdykidBecause of covid, this year was particularly difficult for having extra stock or re-order potential. Atomic USA's supply of aftermarket Mimic liners basically evaporated by early December and it wasn't possible to get more into the country given all of the problems in Europe.

So at this time of the year, things are unfortunately looking pretty bleak. It will really come down to seeing what retailers have left in stock.


Hey Matt!...what's the word on availability of the foam injection liners? Are they likely to be available for retrofit on last year's Hawk ultra xtd 120?
4 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
mystery3Hey Matt!...what's the word on availability of the foam injection liners? Are they likely to be available for retrofit on last year's Hawk ultra xtd 120?


Should be available, I know the US took delivery on some already.

They will fit into a Hawx Ultra XTD, but the liners don't have an articulating cuff. So it would make for a great resort liner (lift serve + short hikes/tours) but not a great touring-specific liner.
4 years ago
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 5095 - Karma: 18,661
onenerdykidShould be available, I know the US took delivery on some already.

They will fit into a Hawx Ultra XTD, but the liners don't have an articulating cuff. So it would make for a great resort liner (lift serve + short hikes/tours) but not a great touring-specific liner.


Thanks for the extremely prompt reply. I'll check with a local shop here in Vancouver to see if they have availability.


I understand the Mimic Professional Liners aren't touring specific but if I can get the heel hold I'm looking for i'll be worth it!
4 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
Is it possible to fit , in men's Prime 100 flex ,27-27,5 size , a woman's ultra hawx mimic liner 27 size ?Sizewise they should fit perfectly . It is for a woman 177 height and 70 kg weight . She already has a woman Prime 95 which is very soft flex and she has a woman Prime 110 flex which is too stiff .Both of them are slightly bigger for her thin leg .
3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LeantLacticIs it possible to fit , in men's Prime 100 flex ,27-27,5 size , a woman's ultra hawx mimic liner 27 size ?Sizewise they should fit perfectly . It is for a woman 177 height and 70 kg weight . She already has a woman Prime 95 which is very soft flex and she has a woman Prime 110 flex which is too stiff .Both of them are slightly bigger for her thin leg .


Unfortunately, no. An Ultra liner will shift and slide around inside the Prime shell and also create a roomier, sloppier fit. If the Prime is already slightly big for her, it will only make her problems worse. Honestly, sounds like she should be in an Ultra boot instead.
3 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
onenerdykidUnfortunately, no. An Ultra liner will shift and slide around inside the Prime shell and also create a roomier, sloppier fit. If the Prime is already slightly big for her, it will only make her problems worse. Honestly, sounds like she should be in an Ultra boot instead.


I am talking about men Hawx Prime boot and woman liner . A mens Hawx Prime size 27 has a last of 102mm . A womans ultra hawx mimic liner size 27 is for a shell 102 mm.
Unfortunately the ultra boot for women has a flex of 115 and 95 . With the prime boot she has , 95 flex is very soft and 110 is stiff .That is why I thought of this combination.
3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LeantLacticI am talking about men Hawx Prime boot and woman liner . A mens Hawx Prime size 27 has a last of 102mm . A womans ultra hawx mimic liner size 27 is for a shell 102 mm.
Unfortunately the ultra boot for women has a flex of 115 and 95 . With the prime boot she has , 95 flex is very soft and 110 is stiff .That is why I thought of this combination.

Let's go step by step:
Hawx Prime in size 27 = 102mm wide
Hawx Ultra in size 27 = 100mm wide
The difference in last dimensions between the two is all over the foot, not just forefoot width. Ultra has a lower instep height, narrower heel, etc. and the liner construction is thinner than a Prime liner. Putting a lower volume liner into a wider shell will result in the liner moving around while skiing.

A women's liner is shorter and more fluted (open) to match the dimensions of the women's cuff. Putting a women's liner into a men's boot will result in a lot of calf pressure because the liner isn't matching the shape of the cuff. You want to get the liner that is made for the shell/cuff (women's boot -> women's liner, men's boot -> men's liner).

While we try to line up flexes as best we can, it's not perfect. And the real-world flex depends how the foot interacts with the shell (a narrow foot in a medium shell will feel softer than the same narrow foot in a narrow shell). I think she will find the Ultra 95 to feel & be stiffer than the Prime 95. Has she tried the Ultra 95?
3 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
onenerdykidLet's go step by step:
Hawx Prime in size 27 = 102mm wide
Hawx Ultra in size 27 = 100mm wide
The difference in last dimensions between the two is all over the foot, not just forefoot width. Ultra has a lower instep height, narrower heel, etc. and the liner construction is thinner than a Prime liner. Putting a lower volume liner into a wider shell will result in the liner moving around while skiing.

A women's liner is shorter and more fluted (open) to match the dimensions of the women's cuff. Putting a women's liner into a men's boot will result in a lot of calf pressure because the liner isn't matching the shape of the cuff. You want to get the liner that is made for the shell/cuff (women's boot -> women's liner, men's boot -> men's liner).

While we try to line up flexes as best we can, it's not perfect. And the real-world flex depends how the foot interacts with the shell (a narrow foot in a medium shell will feel softer than the same narrow foot in a narrow shell). I think she will find the Ultra 95 to feel & be stiffer than the Prime 95. Has she tried the Ultra 95?


Thanks for your immediate reply . No she has tried hawx ultra 115 because in the shop they only had this one . It was a bit stiffer than the hawx Prime 110 . Since Hawx Prime 95 is soft( she can easily flex it all the way ) I thought that the Ultra 95 would be similarly soft .
3 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
What about using men hawx prime 100 size 27 with last 102 . She has thin calf . She is tall so the small increment in boot height would be ok. Is the lower shell of Hawx prime 27 in men boot closer to Hawx ultra 27 women boot .? The last would be the same 102 since the reference size is 26 for men and 25 for women .
3 years ago
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LeantLactic
Posts: 11 - Karma: 13
onenerdykidLet's go step by step:
Hawx Prime in size 27 = 102mm wide
Hawx Ultra in size 27 = 100mm wide
The difference in last dimensions between the two is all over the foot, not just forefoot width. Ultra has a lower instep height, narrower heel, etc. and the liner construction is thinner than a Prime liner. Putting a lower volume liner into a wider shell will result in the liner moving around while skiing.

A women's liner is shorter and more fluted (open) to match the dimensions of the women's cuff. Putting a women's liner into a men's boot will result in a lot of calf pressure because the liner isn't matching the shape of the cuff. You want to get the liner that is made for the shell/cuff (women's boot -> women's liner, men's boot -> men's liner).

While we try to line up flexes as best we can, it's not perfect. And the real-world flex depends how the foot interacts with the shell (a narrow foot in a medium shell will feel softer than the same narrow foot in a narrow shell). I think she will find the Ultra 95 to feel & be stiffer than the Prime 95.

Everything you said is correct . ( How could not that be actually ) . From what I have read , the reference woman's size , for the last is 25-25.5 . So I thought that size 27-27.5 in the Ultra would be 102 . But that is not the case with Atomic .
I bought the Ultra 95s as you suggested , for my friend . Perfect fit . And the flex between the Prime 95 is a night and day difference . You can tell it when I see her flexing , I can tell it even when I open the boot to remove the liner .
Thank you very much . You have just added another new and satisfied customer with Atomic .
3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
LeantLacticEverything you said is correct . ( How could not that be actually ) . From what I have read , the reference woman's size , for the last is 25-25.5 . So I thought that size 27-27.5 in the Ultra would be 102 . But that is not the case with Atomic .
I bought the Ultra 95s as you suggested , for my friend . Perfect fit . And the flex between the Prime 95 is a night and day difference . You can tell it when I see her flexing , I can tell it even when I open the boot to remove the liner .
Thank you very much . You have just added another new and satisfied customer with Atomic .

Stoked it worked out for her!
3 years ago
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Max_711
Posts: 3 - Karma: 13
@onenerdykid


Hey Matt! I hope you are well!

I just bought a pair of new Hawx 130 Ultra XTD (size 27) with the new Mimic liners and skied them from out of the box for 7 days now (incl. cuff spoiler because of narrow calf area). Over all I am pretty happy with them, but unfortunately (as in every Ski boot I skied so far) I have some heel lift going on. So I went with boots to the shop planning to get the liners molded so that

1. I get rid of the heel lift as much as possible as described in the Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 on page 95 (couldn’t find a newer version on the internet) and

2. to get the liners shaped to my feet.



When I arrived at the shop I described the boot fitter my situation (also showing him page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19). A little surprised the boot fitter told me that if he molds the liners the chances of even more heel lift are bigger than less heel lift respectively he was pretty sure that I would get more heel lift. Since I was unsettled by his statement, I let him carry out his suggestions to raise my heel a bit and glue some pads to the heel of the liner. Now having skied with the modifications for 2 days I unfortunately still have some heel lift going on (but at least it is a little bit better).



My questions are now:

1. Should I let the liners get molded to get less heel lift as described on page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 or is the boot fitter right and after molding process the heel lift is even worse?

2. Before the molding process should the pads at the outside of the liners and the heel elevation in the ski boots as well as the cuff spoiler be removed? (And afterwards (if there is still some heel lift going) be attached again?)

3. How long and at what temperature should the liners get molded in the oven? On page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 it says the liners should sit in the oven for 3 minutes at a temperature of 117 °C (but my guess is that these introductions are for the previous Hawx models). The boot fitter at the shop told me that if he molded the liners he would put them in the oven for about 5 minutes (but not at what temperature. I saw that he has an Atomic oven though).

4. Are the socks around the liners during the molding process absolutely necessary? I am not sure if the boot fitter is planning to use them (because he seems a bit lazy and I‘m not sure if he has them).

5. What else are your suggestions against heel lift?



Many thanks in advance for your reply. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

Greetings from Germany,
Max
3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Max_711@onenerdykid


Hey Matt! I hope you are well!

I just bought a pair of new Hawx 130 Ultra XTD (size 27) with the new Mimic liners and skied them from out of the box for 7 days now (incl. cuff spoiler because of narrow calf area). Over all I am pretty happy with them, but unfortunately (as in every Ski boot I skied so far) I have some heel lift going on. So I went with boots to the shop planning to get the liners molded so that

1. I get rid of the heel lift as much as possible as described in the Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 on page 95 (couldn’t find a newer version on the internet) and

2. to get the liners shaped to my feet.



When I arrived at the shop I described the boot fitter my situation (also showing him page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19). A little surprised the boot fitter told me that if he molds the liners the chances of even more heel lift are bigger than less heel lift respectively he was pretty sure that I would get more heel lift. Since I was unsettled by his statement, I let him carry out his suggestions to raise my heel a bit and glue some pads to the heel of the liner. Now having skied with the modifications for 2 days I unfortunately still have some heel lift going on (but at least it is a little bit better).



My questions are now:

1. Should I let the liners get molded to get less heel lift as described on page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 or is the boot fitter right and after molding process the heel lift is even worse?

2. Before the molding process should the pads at the outside of the liners and the heel elevation in the ski boots as well as the cuff spoiler be removed? (And afterwards (if there is still some heel lift going) be attached again?)

3. How long and at what temperature should the liners get molded in the oven? On page 95 in Atomic Alpine Tech Manual 2018/19 it says the liners should sit in the oven for 3 minutes at a temperature of 117 °C (but my guess is that these introductions are for the previous Hawx models). The boot fitter at the shop told me that if he molded the liners he would put them in the oven for about 5 minutes (but not at what temperature. I saw that he has an Atomic oven though).

4. Are the socks around the liners during the molding process absolutely necessary? I am not sure if the boot fitter is planning to use them (because he seems a bit lazy and I‘m not sure if he has them).

5. What else are your suggestions against heel lift?



Many thanks in advance for your reply. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

Greetings from Germany,
Max


Hi Max - a few questions before we talk about how to get rid of the heel lift.

1. Have you been shell fit for this boot, and do you know what kind of shell fit you have? (1cm fit, 2cm, or larger - if unsure, I can walk you through how to check at home).
2. Are you using a custom footbed? If so, what kind and who/what shop made it for you?

Let's answer those first and go from there. But you definitely don't want to follow page 95 of that tech manual - that is the Memory Fit process and it will make the boot wider, and that's certainly not what you need. If anything, you will want to follow the Mimic Liner fitting process, but tell me about 1 & 2 first.
3 years ago
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Max_711
Posts: 3 - Karma: 13
onenerdykidHi Max - a few questions before we talk about how to get rid of the heel lift.

1. Have you been shell fit for this boot, and do you know what kind of shell fit you have? (1cm fit, 2cm, or larger - if unsure, I can walk you through how to check at home).
2. Are you using a custom footbed? If so, what kind and who/what shop made it for you?

Let's answer those first and go from there. But you definitely don't want to follow page 95 of that tech manual - that is the Memory Fit process and it will make the boot wider, and that's certainly not what you need. If anything, you will want to follow the Mimic Liner fitting process, but tell me about 1 & 2 first.

Hi Matt,

Thank you very much for your quick reply!

1. Unfortunately I haven‘t been shell fit for the boots. I went to the shop (different one than mentioned above) and got my feet scanned for length and width reasons (see photo enclosed. The footlenght is underlined).

Afterwards I tried on the Skiboots the salesperson gave me and went with the Hawx Ultra 130 XTD, because they were the Skiboots that felt the best („least“ heel lift and best fit) as the salesperson recommended. So it would be super cool, if you could walk me through how I can check the shell fit at home (to begin with I also just watched the 3 videos of Patriot Footbeds:

https://patriotfootbeds.com/blogs/bootorials/16773361-shell-fitting

But I am not sure if when the shell fit is 1cm, 2cm or larger respectively how to find out. Is it when the footlength is longer than the instep hight?).

2. I don’t have custom footbed. The first day I skied with the new boots I had the Sidas 3Feet Mid Arch footbed in (the salesperson also sold them to me), but they were pretty painful at the inner feet. So I put the original footbed back in and they work very well (I don‘t feel any pain anymore).

Thanks to your answer, I am now glad in hindsight that I didn‘t let the liners get molded.

Looking forward to your further help. I really appreciate it!

Greetings,
Max
3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Max_711Hi Matt,

Thank you very much for your quick reply!

1. Unfortunately I haven‘t been shell fit for the boots. I went to the shop (different one than mentioned above) and got my feet scanned for length and width reasons (see photo enclosed. The footlenght is underlined).

Afterwards I tried on the Skiboots the salesperson gave me and went with the Hawx Ultra 130 XTD, because they were the Skiboots that felt the best („least“ heel lift and best fit) as the salesperson recommended. So it would be super cool, if you could walk me through how I can check the shell fit at home (to begin with I also just watched the 3 videos of Patriot Footbeds:

https://patriotfootbeds.com/blogs/bootorials/16773361-shell-fitting

But I am not sure if when the shell fit is 1cm, 2cm or larger respectively how to find out. Is it when the footlength is longer than the instep hight?).

2. I don’t have custom footbed. The first day I skied with the new boots I had the Sidas 3Feet Mid Arch footbed in (the salesperson also sold them to me), but they were pretty painful at the inner feet. So I put the original footbed back in and they work very well (I don‘t feel any pain anymore).

Thanks to your answer, I am now glad in hindsight that I didn‘t let the liners get molded.

Looking forward to your further help. I really appreciate it!

Greetings,
Max

Shops in Europe put way too much emphasis on scanners. The only way to know if your foot is going to work with a specific shell is to put your foot into shell and examine it. But this takes years of experience to understand properly, which few shops have the patience for. To shell fit:
1. Remove the liner from the shell
2. Step into the shell barefooted and slide your foot to the front of the shell so your toes just barely touch.
3. Examine the space behind the heel: 1cm = high performance fit, 2cm = normal, 3cm = problematically too big

In addition to being in the right shell size, you absolutely 100% need a proper, supportive footbed in your boot. I would say 90-95% of your heel lift is the result of not using one. The foot is a flexible, twist-able object and it will move and twist inside a ski boot. Your heel lift starts here because your foot is moving inside the ski boot. A footbed will create the proper interface between your flexible foot and the rigid shell. Only when you do this can you begin to solve fit issues and without it, you will be chasing a ghost.

The reason your foot was uncomfortable is because you are not used to wearing arch support, and it can take time to adjust to it. This is also telling your foot that you should be wearing some sort of arch support (footbed) in your everyday footwear. An off-the-shelf footbed like what you have will only partly improve your fit. You should ideally have a footbed made specifically for your feet and this is a custom footbed. It will feel more natural and more comfortable too.
3 years ago
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Max_711
Posts: 3 - Karma: 13
onenerdykidShops in Europe put way too much emphasis on scanners. The only way to know if your foot is going to work with a specific shell is to put your foot into shell and examine it. But this takes years of experience to understand properly, which few shops have the patience for. To shell fit:
1. Remove the liner from the shell
2. Step into the shell barefooted and slide your foot to the front of the shell so your toes just barely touch.
3. Examine the space behind the heel: 1cm = high performance fit, 2cm = normal, 3cm = problematically too big

In addition to being in the right shell size, you absolutely 100% need a proper, supportive footbed in your boot. I would say 90-95% of your heel lift is the result of not using one. The foot is a flexible, twist-able object and it will move and twist inside a ski boot. Your heel lift starts here because your foot is moving inside the ski boot. A footbed will create the proper interface between your flexible foot and the rigid shell. Only when you do this can you begin to solve fit issues and without it, you will be chasing a ghost.

The reason your foot was uncomfortable is because you are not used to wearing arch support, and it can take time to adjust to it. This is also telling your foot that you should be wearing some sort of arch support (footbed) in your everyday footwear. An off-the-shelf footbed like what you have will only partly improve your fit. You should ideally have a footbed made specifically for your feet and this is a custom footbed. It will feel more natural and more comfortable too.

Hey Matt,

Many thanks for the quick reply.

1. I have measured the shell fit. It‘s about 2cm (rather a tick less). For the next boot I know what I have to pay attention to. I‘ll then try to get close to 1cm.

2. I understand. I‘ll try to get custom footbed.

If I afterwards still have a bit of heel lift, should I try to eleminate it with foampads (such as the one pictured below)? And should I afterwards still stay away from molding the liner (because the risk of increasing the „gap“ between the liner and the sheel (causing more heel lift) is too high)?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Max


3 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Max_711Hey Matt,

Many thanks for the quick reply.

1. I have measured the shell fit. It‘s about 2cm (rather a tick less). For the next boot I know what I have to pay attention to. I‘ll then try to get close to 1cm.

2. I understand. I‘ll try to get custom footbed.

If I afterwards still have a bit of heel lift, should I try to eleminate it with foampads (such as the one pictured below)? And should I afterwards still stay away from molding the liner (because the risk of increasing the „gap“ between the liner and the sheel (causing more heel lift) is too high)?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Max

In regards to heel lift, you shouldn't be experiencing any while skiing. But if you try to lift your heel when standing in the boot, your heel will always lift and it's not something to be overly worried about because you never do that while skiing.

If you plan on touring with this boot, you will most likely want to stay with a 2cm shell fit. The foot slides forward when touring and a 1cm fit can be quite uncomfortable when going uphill. If you are only skiing downhill, then getting closer to 1cm will always yield a higher performance, more responsive fit.

In regards to customizing the boot, there are a few things to be aware of.
1. Expansion techniques (like Memory Fit) make the boot wider. If your foot is already moving around, you avoid these techniques.
2. Optimization techniques (like Mimic liner molding) shape the liner to your foot/ankle/heel/leg. This is always a good idea because some heel lift can simply be due to the liner not following the shape of your body.
3. Reduction techniques (like adding foam pads to the liner) reduce volume in the shell. This is a good idea if you have too much space in certain areas of the boot.
3 years ago
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Yllsten
Posts: 6 - Karma: 10
Hi Matt, new user here. I recently bought Atomic hawx ultra rs with mimic platimum liner. The liner itself feels good….but compared to my old boots ( ultra 130 s white-red/orange,i assume 2019?) the liner is much colder for toes.

Was it planned to be like that?

I’m living in Finland, skiing in Lappland, where -15 to -25 C is pretty much normal.

With my old pair I was able to ski without heated socks all the way to -25C, but these new ones…maybe to -15…

so platimum feels otherwise good, but is significally colder

Any way of fixing that?
6 months ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
YllstenHi Matt, new user here. I recently bought Atomic hawx ultra rs with mimic platimum liner. The liner itself feels good….but compared to my old boots ( ultra 130 s white-red/orange,i assume 2019?) the liner is much colder for toes.

Was it planned to be like that?

I’m living in Finland, skiing in Lappland, where -15 to -25 C is pretty much normal.

With my old pair I was able to ski without heated socks all the way to -25C, but these new ones…maybe to -15…

so platimum feels otherwise good, but is significally colder

Any way of fixing that?


hey, thanks for the question. Honestly, the internal guts, foams, and insulation are pretty much the same. The only real differences are Mimic (which allows the ankle area to be remolded to your anatomy), a tongue with velcro attachment (for positioning to your liking), and a stretch, neoprene toe box. I guess the last point might be the biggest change but it shouldn't be any colder...

Do you have the old boot/liner still? I'd be curious if you get the same results when putting the old liner into the new shell.
6 months ago
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Yllsten
Posts: 6 - Karma: 10
onenerdykidhey, thanks for the question. Honestly, the internal guts, foams, and insulation are pretty much the same. The only real differences are Mimic (which allows the ankle area to be remolded to your anatomy), a tongue with velcro attachment (for positioning to your liking), and a stretch, neoprene toe box. I guess the last point might be the biggest change but it shouldn't be any colder...

Do you have the old boot/liner still? I'd be curious if you get the same results when putting the old liner into the new shell.

Yeah, I tried it, and it is warmer. Not as warm as they were with the old shells. But skiing now in cold enviroment with old liners.



Are the shells much different? I mean the thicknes of the shell?


bc if the liner is a bit colder, as well as if shells are thinner, maybe it’s both…
6 months ago
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Yllsten
Posts: 6 - Karma: 10
YllstenYeah, I tried it, and it is warmer. Not as warm as they were with the old shells. But skiing now in cold enviroment with old liners.



Are the shells much different? I mean the thicknes of the shell?


bc if the liner is a bit colder, as well as if shells are thinner, maybe it’s both…

And compared to old liners, they are stiched with that silver colour material, what ever that is. For the mimic platimum, it’s different material.

But yeah, i feel the difference. And it is pretty much only in toe area..maybe a bit over all, but mostly toes.
6 months ago
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nOtyRmOm
Posts: 185 - Karma: 1,891
So recently at the shop I work at we’ve had two tounges off of prime 120 boas split from the Velcro connection at the base. Did they change the stitching on them this season? Haven’t had any issues before this season but now after two boots having ripped tounges it feels like an issue others might be having too. Any thoughts?
6 months ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
YllstenAnd compared to old liners, they are stiched with that silver colour material, what ever that is. For the mimic platimum, it’s different material.

But yeah, i feel the difference. And it is pretty much only in toe area..maybe a bit over all, but mostly toes.


If my memory is correct (which it may not be after 10 years since we developed your original liners), the material should be the same, just a different color.

Perhaps the non-stretch toe area of your old liner is less cold vs. the stretch toe version. Could be, but I don't think it should be super noticeable given it is very similar to how almost all other liners are made.

Either way, sorry to hear you're colder now. Coming from someone who also can't stand being cold, I know it's not fun.
6 months ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
nOtyRmOmSo recently at the shop I work at we’ve had two tounges off of prime 120 boas split from the Velcro connection at the base. Did they change the stitching on them this season? Haven’t had any issues before this season but now after two boots having ripped tounges it feels like an issue others might be having too. Any thoughts?


No change to stitching process, just unfortunately sounds like a warranty.
6 months ago
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nOtyRmOm
Posts: 185 - Karma: 1,891
Ok interesting, just weird we’ve had two pairs of boots fail at the same point. Has atomic had any increase in failures with the new liners this season?
onenerdykidNo change to stitching process, just unfortunately sounds like a warranty.
6 months ago
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nOtyRmOm
Posts: 185 - Karma: 1,891
Ok interesting, just weird we’ve had two pairs of boots fail at the same point. Has atomic had any increase in failures with the new liners this season?
onenerdykidNo change to stitching process, just unfortunately sounds like a warranty.
6 months ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
nOtyRmOmOk interesting, just weird we’ve had two pairs of boots fail at the same point. Has atomic had any increase in failures with the new liners this season?


Boots are made in batches, so if you have a problem it can often be that you have a couple. And you need to remember that every single liner we make is 100% handmade and therefore subject to human error. If someone made a mistake in the stitching process, they might have made more than one. It sounds like that is the case here and as such, just get in touch with your local Atomic rep and he'll take it from there.
6 months ago
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Yllsten
Posts: 6 - Karma: 10
onenerdykidIf my memory is correct (which it may not be after 10 years since we developed your original liners), the material should be the same, just a different color.

Perhaps the non-stretch toe area of your old liner is less cold vs. the stretch toe version. Could be, but I don't think it should be super noticeable given it is very similar to how almost all other liners are made.

Either way, sorry to hear you're colder now. Coming from someone who also can't stand being cold, I know it's not fun.

Do you know anything about the shell material/thicknes regarding 2024 hawx ultra Rs 130 vs 2019 Hawx ultra S 130,
is RS shell thinner or?
6 months ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
YllstenDo you know anything about the shell material/thicknes regarding 2024 hawx ultra Rs 130 vs 2019 Hawx ultra S 130,
is RS shell thinner or?


The current generation is thicker than the previous (your old boot). It's hard to say the current boot is a better insulator, but it cannot be worse.
6 months ago
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nOtyRmOm
Posts: 185 - Karma: 1,891
onenerdykidBoots are made in batches, so if you have a problem it can often be that you have a couple. And you need to remember that every single liner we make is 100% handmade and therefore subject to human error. If someone made a mistake in the stitching process, they might have made more than one. It sounds like that is the case here and as such, just get in touch with your local Atomic rep and he'll take it from there.


that makes sense, especially with the nicer liners, already had them sent in for warranty but didn't get any real answers
6 months ago
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