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Help picking some maneuverable powder skis for moderate speed off piste that can still hold up for some charging
I am in desperate need for recommendations on a different pair of wider, powder oriented skis for in bounds, mostly off piste use. I have failed on two previous attempts at guessing on this kind of ski to round out a two ski quiver (Kastle FX95 HP is my main ski) for Western conditions (Taos, Park City, Jackson Hole, Crested Butte, Aspen, etc.), so I am finally reaching out for some guidance in hope to make the third time a charm.
My ideal solution would be something that is a powder oriented, all mountain ski, that is easily maneuverable at moderate speeds in steep and/or tight terrain (including being good in steep mogul fields with big, tight moguls with deep troughs) instead of being super directional and needing to be driven hard all of the time, is somewhat forgiving and not overly demanding, but still has good stability with the ability to charge when called upon, at least when carving up big GS turns on groomers at the end of the day. This could perhaps be a holy grail pipe dream with some counteracting conflicts, but that is effectively what I need. Also, I’ll make the sacrifice on giving up a little chargeability if the trade off was for a bigger improvement in maneuverability at moderate speeds, if that was what I needed to do given my priorities for this particular ski.
I am a 5’ 10” male, weigh 185 lbs, in my mid 30s, and I am a pretty strong skier. However, I bet that I probably can’t keep up with most of the real bad asses here if I am being honest, and I lost some (but not all) of my aggression after racking up some injuries over the years including tearing half of the ligaments in both of my knees and herniating two discs in my back so I am a little more risk adverse these days).
So far, the two main options that have jumped out to me are the;
1) Armada ARV 116 JJ (primary recommendation from Lukas R at backcountry)
2) Moment Wildcat / Blister Pro
Also, I am thinking the 184/185 lengths given my size.
Some other possible options that have come up but am not so sure about are the;
3) Rocky Mountain Underground YLE 110 (secondary recommendation from Lukas R at backcountry)
4) Line Sick Day 114
5) Rossignol Super 7 RD
6) Nordica Enforcer Free 115
Based on the above or also the additional details below, what listed or unlisted options seem like the best fit?
I separated out the additional details to keep the OP shorter and more to the point.
My main pair of skis for most conditions is the Kastle FX95 HP (2016 model, 181 length, side cut of 126 / 95 / 115, rocker/camber/rocker, 22m radius, progressive rise makes the ski feel shorter). If you are not familiar with these, they have had a lot of comparisons to the Mantras from the same era. I love how the Kastles are a fantastic jack of all trades. Their incredible stability makes them very capable chargers off piste, while still being quite maneuverable in tight situations, then they are great carvers on piste for big GS turns, and they are not fatiguing for me in any situation. However, at 95 underfoot I find myself wanting something wider after ~4+ inches of fresh snow within the past day or two.
The thing that messed me up when trying to find a complementary wider ski was the Kastle FX95 HP was touted as being a fairly demanding ski that needs to be driven hard to be rewarding. This lead me to thinking that I would do well with versatile, wider, big mountain, more directional ski. This turned out to be a terrible idea for me as it seems like the aggression that is needed for the big mountain esque kind of skis far exceeds the kind of aggression that was implied for the Kastles.
I am looking to replace a pair of Line Supernatural 108 that I still have (186 length, side cut of 137 / 108 / 126, rocker/camber/rocker, 22m radius). I thought these would be perfect for me given they were highly regarded as being playful charges that were a good one ski quiver with plenty of soft snow capability. However, I found these to be exhausting and unforgiving for me in all circumstances, and they are very difficult for me to maneuver in tight situations at a moderate pace. Also, they chatter like hell carving on groomers (perhaps too soft of a shovel), and they catch an edge way too easy when coasting flat on their bases (can’t explain why, it just happens all of the time). Finally, they are lifeless at a moderate pace, and they are also heavy and not as good in soft snow as I had hoped. I also owned the Blizzard Cochise (2016, 178 length, 108 under foot) for a few outings. I found these to be way too boardy even with the shorter length with most of the same problems as the Supernatural 108.
Here are some more specifics for what I am hoping to find:
1) I am strictly looking for a capable all mountain solution in relatively softer conditions since I have all other conditions already covered with a pair of Kastle FX95 HP.
2) I am only needing an inbounds oriented solution that will be for mostly off piste. I do ski a respectable amount of extreme terrain at some of the most challenging resorts in the US (Taos, Jackson Hole, and Crested Butte with additional visits to Park City and Aspen).
3) A top priority in this search is having great maneuverability with the ability to easily pivot and slide when navigating through a steep mogul field with large, tight moguls and deep troughs. The same need applies to tight trees and narrow chutes.
4) I am a charger when it comes to predictable, on piste groomers, but I usually slow it down to a relatively more moderate and controlled pace when I step up to the more extreme runs. I am a pretty strong and capable skier, and I don’t shy away from the most difficult inbounds terrain that I can find (aside from no more jumps or cliff drops). I just keep my speed relatively manageable when the terrain gets more difficult.
5) I think I am kind of caught in a difficult middle ground of needing something that is not too difficult, fatiguing, and unforgiving to ski when only going at a moderate pace on the more challenging runs but still has ample stability and can carve nice GS turns well when going hard on groomers in variable conditions. Also, it would be great if the skis would not be too punishing when getting in the back seat and would be fairly adaptable to varying body postures and weight shifting.
6) I rarely see epic powder conditions given my relatively limited number of ski days each year, so the main intent for this pair of skis will be for about 4 to 12 inches of fresh snow within the past couple of days. But I also don’t want something that will make we want or need to jump to a demo pair of powder skis when the conditions are even better.
Any specific recommendations or other guidance would be greatly appreciated.
My daily driver is a Jeffrey 114 181cm and a Wrenegade 114 182 for pow days/charging. I think I have some similar characteristics that I look for in a ski and I'm rarely wishing for more ski when I'm charging on the Jeffrey even though I went with the 181. I'm lighter than you (145lbs 5'11") so I think you could definitely go for the 186, but the 181 is pretty nimble in bumps especialy for a ski with such width. The Bibby Pro/Blister Pro/Wildcat was my second choice when I was buying the Jeff.
You really can't go wrong with the Wildcat or Jeffrey. They are both great skis in the category with the Jeffrey being more on the playful side. I threw in the Woodsman simply because it is the more directional version of the Jeffrey with a little more tail support while still being playful. As pow days become more rare I am sometimes wishing for a narrower ski. Your wishes for a pow oriented ski while still having good bump performance is a little contradictory, but I think that more comes down to personal fitness and willingness to move a fat ski through bumps.
This may sound like elitism, but all of the other skis are completely overshadowed by the build quality and durability of ON3P and Moment. I think durability is one of the most important factors for an off piste charging ski. I like to smash rocks with reckless abandon and my Jeffs and both pairs of Wrens I have had have held up so well to abuse, while I have easily destroyed other skis.
No.QuarterMy daily driver is a Jeffrey 114 181cm and a Wrenegade 114 182 for pow days/charging. I think I have some similar characteristics that I look for in a ski and I'm rarely wishing for more ski when I'm charging on the Jeffrey even though I went with the 181. I'm lighter than you (145lbs 5'11") so I think you could definitely go for the 186, but the 181 is pretty nimble in bumps especialy for a ski with such width. The Bibby Pro/Blister Pro/Wildcat was my second choice when I was buying the Jeff.
You really can't go wrong with the Wildcat or Jeffrey. They are both great skis in the category with the Jeffrey being more on the playful side. I threw in the Woodsman simply because it is the more directional version of the Jeffrey with a little more tail support while still being playful. As pow days become more rare I am sometimes wishing for a narrower ski. Your wishes for a pow oriented ski while still having good bump performance is a little contradictory, but I think that more comes down to personal fitness and willingness to move a fat ski through bumps.
This may sound like elitism, but all of the other skis are completely overshadowed by the build quality and durability of ON3P and Moment. I think durability is one of the most important factors for an off piste charging ski. I like to smash rocks with reckless abandon and my Jeffs and both pairs of Wrens I have had have held up so well to abuse, while I have easily destroyed other skis.
Thanks dude for the comments and links! I am looking into everything more now.
Before learning more, it is really interesting to see that you use two different skis with the same width and length for different occassions.
It seems like there is no clear answer, which makes my lack of being able to sufficiently demo really suck. But the notion of narrowing things down to the territory of not being able to go wrong is at least as good I can ask for.
Two follow up questions if you don't mind. What was it about the Jeffrey that lead you to picking them over the Wildcat? Also, do you have any experience with these various options and if should really expect them to be noticeably less demanding and more maneuverable than the "playful charger" that the Line Supernatural 108 is supposed to be, or at least anything else similar to these in the directional big mountain category?
Edit: looked through your pics link and had to mention that you and my little bro would be great friends. He mostly does that kind of scenic photography for a living.
**This post was edited on Feb 12th 2020 at 10:28:06pm
My ON3P Wrenegade 102 181 has been my go to ski for 3 years in Aspen area. Does it all, groomers, corn snow, powder, everything. The only place I don't like it is moguls but Ive always been bad at them.
I would not pull out my Billy goats (186 with 116 underfoot) for any thing less then 20 inches.
I have not been on the woodsman which from what I understand is a more maneuverable wrenegade. Sounds like it might be your winner.
Tiger1016Thanks dude for the comments and links! I am looking into everything more now.
Before learning more, it is really interesting to see that you use two different skis with the same width and length for different occassions.
It seems like there is no clear answer, which makes my lack of being able to sufficiently demo really suck. But the notion of narrowing things down to the territory of not being able to go wrong is at least as good I can ask for.
Two follow up questions if you don't mind. What was it about the Jeffrey that lead you to picking them over the Wildcat? Also, do you have any experience with these various options and if should really expect them to be noticeably less demanding and more maneuverable than the "playful charger" that the Line Supernatural 108 is supposed to be, or at least anything else similar to these in the directional big mountain category?
Edit: looked through your pics link and had to mention that you and my little bro would be great friends. He mostly does that kind of scenic photography for a living.
**This post was edited on Feb 12th 2020 at 10:28:06pm
While they have the same waist width, the Wrenegade and Jeffrey are very different skis. I had an older pair of wrens in 192cm for a while and the difference was much more noticeable, they were more of a special occasion ski for when I was at peak fitness. I kinda impulsively bought the new Wrenegade in the shorter length, and there is a little more overlap between the two now. I’d say the wrens need to be driven hard for them to be playful, you can still find poppy transitions in bumps but it’s a lot lore work to ski them with a nimble style. The Jeff’s on the other hand encourage playful skiing but still have a damp backbone when you need to just hold on point em forward and go fast. There is only a 3 cm difference in length but the Jeff’s feel very noticeably shorter due to mount point and tail rocker, the tails want to be ollied while the wrens feel like the tails are there for support.
Honestly I picked the Jeffrey over the Bibby Pro (now the Wildcat) because of graphics and Blister’s review said the wildcat learned more into the charging category than the playful side. I missed out multiple times trying to buy the Bibby with the graphic I wanted on the used market. I almost pulled the trigger on a 189 Bibby with the psychedelic bear graphic. But missed out and decided I wanted something that was a little more different from my other skis, 189 surface one life which fits the playful charger category in a weird way.
The only other ski in this category I’ve tried is the Fischer Ranger 108 TI. More on the directional charger side but they got a lot of playfulness from their light weight, insanely quick response, and tight turn radius. Those things felt like a fucking Ariel Atom in the bumps and like I could make split second decisions to zipperline or pop off the crest to gap over to the transition of another bump. The only issue I have with them is that they haven’t taken damage all that well from the experience of my friends, however this is anecdotal and they are the type of skiers who can easily destroy a pair of skis in a season
Did some more research and have narrowed it down to these four options, and it seems like there is no obvious way to decide between them (but I am ranking in what I think might be the most appropriate order for me). Since I am heading out to Taos today, I am about to call up a few shops in hopes that they might have one of these options or something else close enough to demo.
1) Moment Wildcat / Blister Pro / Bibby
2) ON3P Woodsman
3) Moment Deathwish (still learning more about these at the moment)
4) Armada ARV 116 JJ (didn't get any love in the comments, but keeping it in the running due to the strong recommendation from backcountry)
I am basically down to trying to figure out if I should just go with the mid width range 106-110 vs. the step up to full width 114-116. Lengths in the mid-180s seem like a given for my size (5' 10", 185 lbs) and not fitting into the most aggressive or strongest skier categories.
Thinking about the fact that the softest conditions that I can recall ever skiing have been ~12" within the past day or two or ~24" within the past 3 to 5 days (in fact these are the exact conditions that will be stepping into out at Taos tomorrow), I think I would probably be better suited with a mid width solution so that I'll have a better fit for the vast majority of the conditions I'll likely face and have something that should be a bit better with moguls. I don't have any real experience with wider skis beyond 108, and I suppose I would not be itching for the wider skis until it gets up to a legit 24" of truly fresh snow, which will probably be a once every 5+ year event for me since I have only been getting in 5 to 10 days a year lately due to kids, work, and and not living close to a mountain.
Thoughts on mid vs full width?
**This post was edited on Feb 13th 2020 at 11:41:57am
I know plenty of people who ski fat skis every day of the season and swear by them. They aren't bad to lay down turns on hardpack once you get used to them and are aware of their limitations and keep the edges sharp, they are fun in slush, and they float better in pow especially on those super special super deep days. But a mid width ski will still float pretty great on most pow days, but they will be a little better on the majority of days and a little more nimble. Float will be a little less given all other variables are the same, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it sounds like you are leaning more toward a mid-fat ski, but that may be due to not ever having skied a wider ski.
Just to throw another option out there is the Surface Outsider 189. They are stiff as hell and have a ridiculously abrupt rocker profile that makes them ski hardpack incredibly well, the abrupt change from camber to rocker really can be pressed into the snow like a knife to carve confidently and the short running length of camber makes them nimble. The length makes them chargeable in chop as well. Overall they are just a weird ski that somehow works well. They can be kinda polaraizing though and you will definitely get some funny looks in the lift line, and they are a bit less expensive than other skis in this thread. Surface isn't really known for their durability, but I have been beating the shit out of mine since 2013 and they have held up really well.
No.QuarterI know plenty of people who ski fat skis every day of the season and swear by them. They aren't bad to lay down turns on hardpack once you get used to them and are aware of their limitations and keep the edges sharp, they are fun in slush, and they float better in pow especially on those super special super deep days. But a mid width ski will still float pretty great on most pow days, but they will be a little better on the majority of days and a little more nimble. Float will be a little less given all other variables are the same, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it sounds like you are leaning more toward a mid-fat ski, but that may be due to not ever having skied a wider ski.
Just to throw another option out there is the Surface Outsider 189. They are stiff as hell and have a ridiculously abrupt rocker profile that makes them ski hardpack incredibly well, the abrupt change from camber to rocker really can be pressed into the snow like a knife to carve confidently and the short running length of camber makes them nimble. The length makes them chargeable in chop as well. Overall they are just a weird ski that somehow works well. They can be kinda polaraizing though and you will definitely get some funny looks in the lift line, and they are a bit less expensive than other skis in this thread. Surface isn't really known for their durability, but I have been beating the shit out of mine since 2013 and they have held up really well.
Op which 2 fat pow skis did you try and not like and what was it you didn't like about them?
I am also very curious about the new RMU YLEs because I love Wiley's style of skiing. Dude charges super hard and fast in all sorts of snow conditions and also slows it down and skis tight tech stuff etc. I love my 4frnt YLEs and can only assume Wiley is on a ski that is just as sick now
Tiger1016Did some more research and have narrowed it down to these four options, and it seems like there is no obvious way to decide between them (but I am ranking in what I think might be the most appropriate order for me). Since I am heading out to Taos today, I am about to call up a few shops in hopes that they might have one of these options or something else close enough to demo.
1) Moment Wildcat / Blister Pro / Bibby
2) ON3P Woodsman
3) Moment Deathwish (still learning more about these at the moment)
4) Armada ARV 116 JJ (didn't get any love in the comments, but keeping it in the running due to the strong recommendation from backcountry)
I am basically down to trying to figure out if I should just go with the mid width range 106-110 vs. the step up to full width 114-116. Lengths in the mid-180s seem like a given for my size (5' 10", 185 lbs) and not fitting into the most aggressive or strongest skier categories.
Thinking about the fact that the softest conditions that I can recall ever skiing have been ~12" within the past day or two or ~24" within the past 3 to 5 days (in fact these are the exact conditions that will be stepping into out at Taos tomorrow), I think I would probably be better suited with a mid width solution so that I'll have a better fit for the vast majority of the conditions I'll likely face and have something that should be a bit better with moguls. I don't have any real experience with wider skis beyond 108, and I suppose I would not be itching for the wider skis until it gets up to a legit 24" of truly fresh snow, which will probably be a once every 5+ year event for me since I have only been getting in 5 to 10 days a year lately due to kids, work, and and not living close to a mountain.
Thoughts on mid vs full width?
**This post was edited on Feb 13th 2020 at 11:41:57am
Fuck backcountry, I wouldnt take advice from them
**This post was edited on Feb 13th 2020 at 7:33:43pm
Op which 2 fat pow skis did you try and not like and what was it you didn't like about them?
I am also very curious about the new RMU YLEs because I love Wiley's style of skiing. Dude charges super hard and fast in all sorts of snow conditions and also slows it down and skis tight tech stuff etc. I love my 4frnt YLEs and can only assume Wiley is on a ski that is just as sick now
Might have missed my second post (split it up to make the OP shorter). It was the 2016 Line Supernatural 108 and Blizzard Cochise. Both were way too much for me, and in hindsight I had things messed up thinking those sticks might be right for me. Took a 3 year break from the Supernaturals after tearing an MCL on them. Got back on them in Jackson Hole a few weeks back because of some fresh snow for once and was exhausted quick.
Alright, I am back from my Taos trip and have a few interesting updates that include demoing two skis (K2 Mindbender 108 TI and Black Crows Atris) and getting some helpful input from Moment, all of which is worth sharing. FYI this turned into a more lengthy review of the two skis than I expected, but there could be some interesting stuff in here for those that might be interested. I have narrowed my decision down to the 179cm K2 Mindbender 108 TI or the 184cm Moment Wildcat 108.
I sent Moment an email with nearly the same content as my first two posts but with the question narrowed down to the 108 and 116 Wildcat and the Deathwish. I copied the response below in a second post (split them up due to length).
I did not have any luck on finding any skis that had come up in this thread, but the Mindbender 108 TI and Atris were two good options that were close enough to the right ballpark to help with the decision process. I am thinking heavily about calling it a day and going with the K2 Mindbender 108 Ti at 179cm due to how good this was for me off piste, but the one holdback was its odd on piste performance for me, in my very limited time giving them a run on groomers, which I think was attributable to a tuning issue. I am debating this option with the Moment Wildcat 108 at 184, which I will not be able to try out.
Conditions and trail descriptions first. We were lucky to get a little over 24” at Taos Ski Valley in the 3 days leading up to my trip (I have skied Taos during some terribly dry winters, so this was a nice treat) and it was blue bird days the 3 days I was out there. Also, Kachina Peak and the Kachina lift opened up at the end of day 1 and was wide open for days 2 and 3, so I was able to lap that nearly the entire time (hit up the progressively narrowing chutes in K5, K4, K3, and K2 and did a few Main Street runs as well). Some of the other runs that I hit up a few times were Castor, Reforma, Blitz, and Longhorn (nice really steep double blacks and blacks). Also I hit up a few groomers for warm ups or to head back to the lift, which presented its own challenge of dodging the holiday weekend crowds (while being safe about it; please watch out for the kids!).
Black Crows Atris 108 – 184
I skied the Atris on day 2. This was one of the closest options to what I am looking for that I could find at the shops that I talked to. On paper it seemed like it was supposed to be a semi-playful and nimble ski that was still plenty stable and good both on and off piste in the mid waist range that I was gravitating towards.
This ski was an absolute blast going warp speed on groomers doing some Super G turns and just setting this thing on edge and letting the ski do all of the work. The edge hold at any speed or turn shape was flawless and confidence inspiring, and I could not find a speed limit on it. I have never been on another ski that had such an unshakable edge hold that I felt like I could set and forget without worrying about potentially losing an edge and/or having to put some work in to maintain it (and this is in comparison to the Line Supernatural 108 184, Blizzard Cochise 178, and Kastle FX 95 HP 181, all 2016 models). In hindsight, after my experience on the Mindbender, I think that the shop might be guilty to a fault of maintaining aggressively sharp of edges, which has its pluses and minuses.
The Atris was not very fun doing GS or tighter carving on groomers. It was possible, but the ski felt relatively slow to react to my input, at least when compared to the Mindbender and the FX 95 HP. I think this is partly attributable and inherent with skis of this length, width, and weight, which I don’t have significant experience with, so I am not going to suggest that this is a notable ding to the Atris compared to comparable alternatives.
The biggest thing for me that was a turn off with this ski is it was as exhausting for me to ski as the 186 Line Supernatural 108 was off piste. I realize that I am not the most technically proficient skier out there and I realize there are some additional things that I could do to improve that would allow me to be more efficient and use up less energy in my legs when running down expert terrain. Despite that, some skis are naturally easier for me to maneuver than others while others require a lot more work and are less forgiving when I get off track. The Atris had me calling it quits due to leg fatigue after just 3 1/2 hours. I would chalk this up to the tails feeling like they required a lot of work for me to smear around whether I was doing pivot turns on super steep terrain or slarving around a mogul field. Based on my experience with the shorter Mindbender, I think this issue is heavily correlated to the length, width, and weight of this ski.
K2 Mindbender 108 TI – 179(not the 186)
I skied the Mindbender on day 3. The ski shop wound up talking me into giving these a shot as well as dropping down in length based on my comments about the Atris (even though the 186 Mindbender was available and so was the 178 Atris). I was hesitant because my Kastle FX 95 HP at 181 have only a modest amount of tip and tail rocker, so I knew a 179 Mindbender with its relatively more pronounced tip and tail rocker was going to definitely feel like a shorter ski, which would not be a bad thing if it could still keep up and hold up when I pushed it. At 5” 10” 185 lbs and expert level, all signs point toward mid-180’s length skis being the ideal option for me, but I rationalized this experiment under the premise of this ski supposedly being more in the charger category, which had the potential to strike an interesting balance if the edge hold could umm hold up. This turned out to be an eye opening experiment with positive results.
I spent the entire day on the Mindbender dong consecutive laps in the Kachina K chutes (at least 6 runs) and finished the day with a gasser down the long, steep mogul field on Longhorn after downing a 32 oz beer and Weinerschnitzel at the Bavarian. This was by far the most fun I have ever had on expert terrain to date. The Mindbender just felt so natural and easy for me. I would normally be gassed and done after just 3 laps on Kachina. Also, my pace was noticeably faster than my trusty Kastles or the Atris on this same terrain. I was able to push myself past what I would consider average speed in this terrain (when comparing my speed to what I see from everyone else out on the expert runs) and even do some real charging on super steep slopes, which was something that had I only reserved for groomers up to this point.
I think there are a number of things about the Mindbender that contributed to them being such great performer off piste for me. The magic was how quick and easy it was to whip the tails around on super steep slopes with fairly big moguls that had formed. The unique Y shape of Titanal support apparently makes the tails easier to smear turns off piste while still leaving the stability that is needed when the skis are flexing. Also, the shape of the tails along with the relatively shorter length and lighter weight than what I am used to definitely helped the cause too, and I think the mount point is a bit further back than I am used to as well. Finally, I happen to fight getting in the back seat too easily. It felt like the tails were noticeably more forgiving when this happened, and I also felt like the front of the skis were somehow magically more conducive to naturally keeping me more forward or at least centered.
I was surprised that I did not notice any downsides of the shorter length on the super steep runs. I think the skis had a bit too sharp of a tune, at least in the tips, which sucked on groomers, but helped to maintain the edge despite there being a shorter effective edge than I am used to. If I had not had a blast carving down a windblown, chalky, open face at a pretty good speed, I would have assumed the soft landings on big moguls with a decent amount of soft snow still on them might have been a misleading contributor to my perception of adequate edge hold despite the shorter length. Also, I had no problem with the ski holding up really well for me as I charged through boot high chop on the run outs at the ends of the Kachina runs, and I felt a comfortable and confident level of stability as I plowed through the has been powder. Finally on the on piste performance, I could tell during the choppy runouts that this ski should have some pretty nice float when/if I am able to get it into some real powder.
Despite all of the fun off piste, the Mindbenders, with their overly sharp tune were my least favorite ski that I can recall on groomers. The issue was the shovels were very grabby. Also, I think one of the shovels had a relatively sharper tune than the other because I had multiple occasions where I was rolling through some high speed GS turns and my right ski when it was the downhill one as I turned left wanted to go on a bigger arc than my left ski, which is something I have never dealt with before. I also noticed the shovels had a propensity to want to catch an edge when running bases flat on a cat track, which is something that I had a serious problem with my Line Supernatural 108 skis as well, and I guess it is not much of a surprise to read after the fact that that the Mindbender borrowed a lot of design from the Supernaturals. I don’t know if the issue was really a tuning one vs. being associated with me overloading the shorter ski given my weight and how hard I was pushing them.
On the other hand, when I was able to find a way to circumvent the grabby shovel issue for a few turns, I did find the Mindbender to be very quick and responsive when carving GS and Super G style turns on groomers, and I do not recall feeling like the tails were at risk of losing their edge and washing out on me (a general concern with shorter skis). It seemed like the carveability and responsiveness could be pretty close to my Kastles with the right tune, but the next level of edge hold and lack of speed limit that I found on the Atris was not something that I found on the Mindbender, which I am okay with giving up for the off piste performance. Also, the Mindbender seemed to have a comparable amount of energy when carving as my Kastles.
It seems like there is good potential with the Mindbender if I could get the edges tuned just right. However, I do have some concerns that detuning the shovels to some degree in order to get things right for on piste performance could lead to consequences for off piste performance (e.g. not being able to hold a good enough edge due to the shorter length when on steeper and/or firmer terrain).
Concluding Thoughts (179cm Mindbender 108 TI vs. 184cm Wildcat 108):
I would be willing to take the risk to try to find the right balance in the tune with the Mindbender 108 TI at 179 and call it a day. If I was able to do that, I think the ski could be a fantastic nearly one ski quiver for me except for the firmest of conditions. However, there is a degree of risk that I will not be able to solve the issue with the grabby shovels with a simple detuning of the tips (e.g. was I perhaps just overloading the ski instead?), but there is probably even more risk going with a different option that I have not been able to get some time on. It does not help that I have not been able to find any comparisons of the Mindbender 108 to any of the other skis that have come up in this thread yet.
I think I could be a little better off with a Mindbender 108 at 181cm or 182cm if that was somehow available, which is unfortunately not the case. Alternatively, I am not sure if there is a different ski option at 184cm that has relatively more tail rocker (so that the tails feel shorter and are as easy to turn as the Mindbender), is comparable in weight to a 179cm Mindbender, with as good or better off piste performance as the Mindbender, but is somehow a bit better on piste. It seems like the Moment Wildcat 108 at 184 would fit this description on paper (don’t know about the on piste part though), so I am going to try to do some more digging to see if I can find any helpful comparisons. It would an unexpected surprise if someone happened to have enough experience to be able to provide some insight into how a 179cm Mindbender 108 vs. a 184cm Wildcat 108, or anything else similar to this, would compare.
Based on the response that I got from Moment (see my next post), which came in before I demoed either ski, I had made up my mind on the 184cm Wildcat 108 being my preferred option when compared against the 116 Wildcat or the Deathwish. The focus was on the 108s relatively better overall general responsiveness and maneuverability along with better performance in trickier moguls. The 178 Wildcat 108 would ski even shorter than the 179 Mindbender due to the noticeably more pronounced tail rocker, so that option is out. My big concern is if 184 Wildcat 108 would require a similar amount of work and be as unforgiving as the 184 Atris or the 186 Line Supernatural 108. However, the Wildcat has a lot more tail rocker and a bit more tip rocker than both while being comparable in weight with the Atris and noticeably lighter than the Supernatural.
Response from Moment comparing the Wildcat 116 and 108 along with the Deathwish
The three skis you picked out are all fairly similar in they type of snow they perform best in. There are minor details that differentiate the ski's riding styles.
Looking at the Wildcat (116) this is going to give you the best float. Great intuitive powerful powder ski. The tip of this ski has deeeep rocker lines which allow the ski to pivot around in tight spaces really well. There is enough sidecut to carve this in soft groomers. The amount of material in this ski is what gives it the natural dampness. With your weight height, I am keeping all those details in mind while describing flex and pop of each ski, the ski will have some pop to it. The faster you load the ski the faster it pops. The tail rocker also gives the ski the ability to be thrown sideways when you need. The overall shape is such that the ski does like to be turning down the hill. You can straightline, like anything, but the ski is built to be making turns.
The Wildcat 108 Is a more versatile Wildcat. You will be even faster in the trees with the narrower version. The ski is a more damp build since there is less material, making it feel very similar to its wider version. The ski also weighs the same as the wider version, this makes it ski a bit more Chargy, The 108 eats chop all day any day. It will be more fun in bumps with the narrower waist. The shapes are very similar, deep rocker lines and tail rocker as well. You lose some float. Again the ski is built to turn down the mountain however it is super stable and can be straight lined.
The Deathwish 112 underfoot. This ski is more playful than the 108 and the wildcat. It wants to be under an active off-piste rider. Is does float and in deeper snow you won't notice the triple camber. The ski is super stable underfoot just like the 108, if is a bit more playful out in the tip and tail. Makes the ski easy to throw sideways when getting it through trees. The camber zones give the ski 2 extra contact points with the snow making it feel like a 104 waisted ski when on groomers. This ski doesnt have as much side cut, doesn't need it to feel stable on groomers, which is where the 108 and wildcat are going to be a bit more enjoyable in big troff moguls. The softish chopped up snowpack is where this thing thrives.
Trying to not overlap as much with your FX the Wildcat 116 and the deathwish float in soft snow better than the 108. The Deathwish is a bit better in hard pack when compared to the fat cat. The 108 is the most damp and stable.
