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I'm hoping for a Mindbender 108Ti with a more symmetrical shape, rocker profile, and flex pattern. The 108Ti's directional feel is the only thing keeping me from loving that ski.
patagonialukeI'm hoping for a Mindbender 108Ti with a more symmetrical shape, rocker profile, and flex pattern. The 108Ti's directional feel is the only thing keeping me from loving that ski.
Would they use titanal in the Factory Team skis though? Sounds too much of a ski for the target audience.
**This post was edited on Sep 8th 2019 at 3:58:24pm
BrawnTrendsWould they use titanal in the Factory Team skis though? Sounds too much of a ski for the target audience.
**This post was edited on Sep 8th 2019 at 3:58:24pm
Yeah I don't know. The Marksman and Catamaran are not light skis, so I could see them going either way — pivot the line in a new direction and make them lighter (maybe use the carbon construction like the Mindbender 116C), or stick with a heavier layup like the previous skis, but with the titanal Y-frame construction of the Mindbender 108Ti. FWIW, the Mindbender 108Ti is not a particularly stiff or burly ski, it's surprisingly forgiving but still feels nice and damp.
patagonialukeYeah I don't know. The Marksman and Catamaran are not light skis, so I could see them going either way — pivot the line in a new direction and make them lighter (maybe use the carbon construction like the Mindbender 116C), or stick with a heavier layup like the previous skis, but with the titanal Y-frame construction of the Mindbender 108Ti. FWIW, the Mindbender 108Ti is not a particularly stiff or burly ski, it's surprisingly forgiving but still feels nice and damp.
I only skied the Catamaran once, but I owned the first version of the Marksman and while it was indeed pretty heavy it was also extremely soft in the tip and tail, making it super playful (and very chattery at speed). On the other hand, the couple skis with titanal that I owned in the past ended up being a little too physical and tiring at the end of the day for my liking.
I guess we'll see, but I like the general shape of the Mindbender lineup, so why not?
The shreditor 112 was the best ski I ever skied. Then I got Marksman’s, and they were the best skis ever. Stoked to see what’s coming down the pipe line! Been on K2’s exclusively since 1989. Loved almost every pair I’ve owned. ( hated poachers though , just didn’t agree with me. They felt stiff like an 80’s slalom ski. )
teamdummyThe shreditor 112 was the best ski I ever skied. Then I got Marksman’s, and they were the best skis ever. Stoked to see what’s coming down the pipe line! Been on K2’s exclusively since 1989. Loved almost every pair I’ve owned. ( hated poachers though , just didn’t agree with me. They felt stiff like an 80’s slalom ski. )
From c vans most recent insta post, sounds like armadas gonna have a boot program next year. Wonder if it’s gonna be more like atomic, Salomon, or something entirely new..?
From c vans most recent insta post, sounds like armadas gonna have a boot program next year. Wonder if it’s gonna be more like atomic, Salomon, or something entirely new..?
Based on how armada has all black shifts and the fact that I doubt they would want to compete with the two other well established major brands owned by amer sports, best bet is atomic/ solly boots in different colors.
TheWeazBased on how armada has all black shifts and the fact that I doubt they would want to compete with the two other well established major brands owned by amer sports, best bet is atomic/ solly boots in different colors.
They aren’t competing if they’re all owned by the same company. I was thinking maybe they would be able to take unreleased design concepts that didn’t quite fit the solly or atomic brand image.
ShireRatThey aren’t competing if they’re all owned by the same company. I was thinking maybe they would be able to take unreleased design concepts that didn’t quite fit the solly or atomic brand image.
Listening to the Blister podcasts with @onenerdykid it made it seem like taking a boot to production was a wildly expensive thing to do. I can't see Amer doing much more than murdering some XTD's but I could be way off. 130 Flex rear entry drip??
-eREKTion-Listening to the Blister podcasts with @onenerdykid it made it seem like taking a boot to production was a wildly expensive thing to do. I can't see Amer doing much more than murdering some XTD's but I could be way off. 130 Flex rear entry drip??
That would be fire. I listened to that podcast as well, said it costs about 300k to make a mold right? I was just thinking maybe there were some ideas that had been tossed around with the design teams that didn’t make the cut for full production because of market trends or brand direction. According to the blister podcast, it takes 3-5 years to bring a boot from concept to finished product, much longer than armada has been with amer. Having a progressive brand like armada in the amer group might open doors for them to bring out some old design ideas that maybe didn’t fit with atomic or salomon. The way Tom phrased his comment seems like the boot is exclusive to armada. Last, because he’s talking to c-van, I doubt it’s a touring boot...
ShireRatThat would be fire. I listened to that podcast as well, said it costs about 300k to make a mold right? I was just thinking maybe there were some ideas that had been tossed around with the design teams that didn’t make the cut for full production because of market trends or brand direction. According to the blister podcast, it takes 3-5 years to bring a boot from concept to finished product, much longer than armada has been with amer. Having a progressive brand like armada in the amer group might open doors for them to bring out some old design ideas that maybe didn’t fit with atomic or salomon. The way Tom phrased his comment seems like the boot is exclusive to armada. Last, because he’s talking to c-van, I doubt it’s a touring boot...
300.000 more like 800000-1m if you factor in all the sizes
ShireRatThey aren’t competing if they’re all owned by the same company. I was thinking maybe they would be able to take unreleased design concepts that didn’t quite fit the solly or atomic brand image.
Even though all three brands are owned by Amer Sports, the brands still end up competing for their own market share. There's a very limited space on each retailer's boot wall, and we fight pretty hard for each space. It's not in either brand's interest to re-brand a boot and sell it as an Armada, because that would mean a retailer would buy one less model from either Salomon or Atomic. I honestly don't know what Armada is planning on the boot side, and if something is happening it is not happening in collaboration with Atomic.
-SnowSnoli-300.000 more like 800000-1m if you factor in all the sizes
Depending on how big the size run is, how many new components are being made (vs. shared with existing boots), the cost of a new boot project is usually around 800k-1m€
onenerdykidEven though all three brands are owned by Amer Sports, the brands still end up competing for their own market share. There's a very limited space on each retailer's boot wall, and we fight pretty hard for each space. It's not in either brand's interest to re-brand a boot and sell it as an Armada, because that would mean a retailer would buy one less model from either Salomon or Atomic. I honestly don't know what Armada is planning on the boot side, and if something is happening it is not happening in collaboration with Atomic.
Depending on how big the size run is, how many new components are being made (vs. shared with existing boots), the cost of a new boot project is usually around 800k-1m€
Would armada have access to older maybe unreleased designs either from you guys or Salomon? Also thanks for clarifying that, not so much for atomic/Salomon, but I’ve always wondered why Rossi/Lange have different boots.
ShireRatWould armada have access to older maybe unreleased designs either from you guys or Salomon? Also thanks for clarifying that, not so much for atomic/Salomon, but I’ve always wondered why Rossi/Lange have different boots.
As of right now, we use every mold we make. Nothing is sitting around- it's just too expensive to do that.
Do molds themselves have a limited lifespan? Or is it a marketing lifespan for the boot itself. What determines a model replacement if you are willing to share. If its the molds, how many seasons do you get?
TurnfarmerDo molds themselves have a limited lifespan? Or is it a marketing lifespan for the boot itself. What determines a model replacement if you are willing to share. If its the molds, how many seasons do you get?
Yes, they have a finite lifespan. Ski boot molds are made of aluminum rather than steel. This means they wear out quicker but it is what allows them to be modified should any changes need to be made, which is a huge reason we make them out of aluminum in the first place. Every injection cycle causes a minute amount of wear & tear to a mold and after x-thousand injections they will need to be repaired, resurfaced, etc. Eventually they just die out. Boots that have low production quantities (like World Cup boots) will last longer than boots that have very high production quantities (like Hawx Prime).
We amortize mold costs over 4 years, so we generally make a new model every 5th year (could be faster, could be longer depending on market needs). We could keep them for longer, but models usually become rather dated by then anyway and we'll need to do an update in order to stay relevant against the other brands.
I never understood why the SPK was killed off? Seemed super popular and was the competition to full tilt. I’m a lifelong Raichle/Full Tilt user. However the SPK was about the only other boot that ever peaked my interest back in the day. Sorry not relevant to new gear. But the Solly/Atomic boot talk just got me thinking.
onenerdykidYes, they have a finite lifespan. Ski boot molds are made of aluminum rather than steel. This means they wear out quicker but it is what allows them to be modified should any changes need to be made, which is a huge reason we make them out of aluminum in the first place. Every injection cycle causes a minute amount of wear & tear to a mold and after x-thousand injections they will need to be repaired, resurfaced, etc. Eventually they just die out. Boots that have low production quantities (like World Cup boots) will last longer than boots that have very high production quantities (like Hawx Prime).
We amortize mold costs over 4 years, so we generally make a new model every 5th year (could be faster, could be longer depending on market needs). We could keep them for longer, but models usually become rather dated by then anyway and we'll need to do an update in order to stay relevant against the other brands.
TheWeazBased on how armada has all black shifts and the fact that I doubt they would want to compete with the two other well established major brands owned by amer sports, best bet is atomic/ solly boots in different colors.
teamdummyI never understood why the SPK was killed off? Seemed super popular and was the competition to full tilt. I’m a lifelong Raichle/Full Tilt user. However the SPK was about the only other boot that ever peaked my interest back in the day. Sorry not relevant to new gear. But the Solly/Atomic boot talk just got me thinking.
BrawnTrendsIsn't Salomon bringing it back?
Armada SPK....???
Im starting that rumor here, 20/21 Armada SPK will be stealing market share and girlfriend(s) from Full Tilt
The spk fits entirely different than the classic full tilt shells. I wouldn’t predict it stealing anyone away. If a boot fitter put you in a full tilt they wouldn’t also recommend you trying on an spk, they were designed around entirely different foot types.
The spk could be comparable to the wider full tilt models that are just re labeled roxa boots, the then again with the 3 piece construction vs the spks overlap design they would still fit differently.
Additionally modern boots are so much more accommodating and lighter while still functioning as well or better. if they were to bring back the spk it would only have a similar name and be a completely different boot.
TheWeazThe spk fits entirely different than the classic full tilt shells. I wouldn’t predict it stealing anyone away. If a boot fitter put you in a full tilt they wouldn’t also recommend you trying on an spk, they were designed around entirely different foot types.
The spk could be comparable to the wider full tilt models that are just re labeled roxa boots, the then again with the 3 piece construction vs the spks overlap design they would still fit differently.
Additionally modern boots are so much more accommodating and lighter while still functioning as well or better. if they were to bring back the spk it would only have a similar name and be a completely different boot.
Kbob94Looking like marker is dropping the competition to the shift! It’s a 16 din with afd toe and looks like carbon jester heel.
What is your source of information on carbon jester heel?
Interesting that they chose 16 din when the kingpin and shift are 13 din, I wonder if they’re going to release a “griffon” version eventually that will introduce it to a market that can’t currently use the shift since the din only goes down to 6.
**This post was edited on Oct 14th 2019 at 1:10:01pm
-SnowSnoli-Going back to 3 skis instead of 2. Replacing the Marksman and catamaran
While I can't drop too much knowledge on this because I'll get in trouble at work - I'm going to keep the hype rumors going and focused on K2. What I can say is that the boys and I did a number on next years collection and (I think) you are all going to be stoked. Only thing I'm confirming is that you will indeed see 3 models next year instead of just the two. Mic drop. Out.
TheWeazWhat is your source of information on carbon jester heel?
Interesting that they chose 16 din when the kingpin and shift are 13 din, I wonder if they’re going to release a “griffon” version eventually that will introduce it to a market that can’t currently use the shift since the din only goes down to 6.
**This post was edited on Oct 14th 2019 at 1:10:01pm
If you watch the insta promo video of it you can see the carbon jester heel. It would only make sense to release it in a 16. Like that’s a whole market that the shift can’t touch. I’m maxing my shift out now so to be able to have this up to 16 is soo hype.
bradwaltersWhile I can't drop too much knowledge on this because I'll get in trouble at work - I'm going to keep the hype rumors going and focused on K2. What I can say is that the boys and I did a number on next years collection and (I think) you are all going to be stoked. Only thing I'm confirming is that you will indeed see 3 models next year instead of just the two. Mic drop. Out.
The mind bender 108 looks dope AF. But is a little too directional for me. So really hoping K2 has something up their sleeve that’s more center mounted, free ride oriented.
116 mindbender mounted at +5 in front of the line is a playful charger fyi. But yer really looking forward to a shredditor 112 kind of ski
teamdummyThe mind bender 108 looks dope AF. But is a little too directional for me. So really hoping K2 has something up their sleeve that’s more center mounted, free ride oriented.
teamdummyThe mind bender 108 looks dope AF. But is a little too directional for me. So really hoping K2 has something up their sleeve that’s more center mounted, free ride oriented.
ive heard they ski really back
cop sum marksmans if you want some skis more freeride around that waist width
Kbob94Looking like marker is dropping the competition to the shift! It’s a 16 din with afd toe and looks like carbon jester heel.
TheWeazWhat is your source of information on carbon jester heel?
Interesting that they chose 16 din when the kingpin and shift are 13 din, I wonder if they’re going to release a “griffon” version eventually that will introduce it to a market that can’t currently use the shift since the din only goes down to 6.
**This post was edited on Oct 14th 2019 at 1:10:01pm
According to sources I’m not allowed to name, Marker is completely redesigning the Duke to compete directly with the Shift. Given that the duke was beefy and had a 16din, I believe that is why they are making it so, and not a 13. Drops in 2 weeks so should be some exciting stuff!
animatorAccording to sources I’m not allowed to name, Marker is completely redesigning the Duke to compete directly with the Shift. Given that the duke was beefy and had a 16din, I believe that is why they are making it so, and not a 13. Drops in 2 weeks so should be some exciting stuff!
Do you think it'll be available this season? Or would it be like a one more year dealio
This season will be my 25th straight year in the OG 3 piece boot. Raichle Flexons in the 90’s. Then when Kneissl had the molds in the early 2k’s. And now multiple Full Tilts. They aren’t for everyone, but great if they fit you!
I usually buy skis every couple of years but have been on my original marksmans and will be skiing them this year as well. I just don’t want to give them up.
I may snag another pair next season. Greatest ski I have had on my feet.
teamdummyMarksman are what I’m riding now! Haha! They shred. My daily driver, park shredders, all mountain, and mogul skis! Best K2’s I’ve owned.
