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I ski in the alps and you can literally go wherever you want. I have seen that America has zones in which you cannot go, “rope drops”, why is skiing off piste regulated ?
Butter4dayzI ski in the alps and you can literally go wherever you want. I have seen that America has zones in which you cannot go, “rope drops”, why is skiing off piste regulated ?
It really depends upon the ski area. Some have "open boundary" policies where you're allowed to go off-piste.
Yes, if off-piste is prohibited, the resort is probably safer from lawsuits and pays less for its liability insurance. On the other hand, that's not always the whole story. It could be that the ski area is adjacent to private property, a wildlife area with regulated access, or a parcel of government land that's being used for logging or mining.
Because people in 'MERICA are dumb and when they do dumb things they sue people, even though it's their fault.
Also there are a ton of regulations with the Forest Service which most resorts in western side of the country have lease agreements with to run their resorts within a certain boundary line.
But, every resort with decent side country aka terrain outside of the resort boundary will open when avalanche conditions settle a bit.
It's all about liability for the resort. If you get hurt inbounds, ski patrol is required to help you at no cost. If you are out of bounds they can charge you a few thousand for a rescue operation.
In Oregon you are legally allowed to camp for up to 14 days in any part of federally owned land. Legally speaking, you can ski just about anywhere.
Govygen_gourmetAt Mt Hood Meadows if you go off piste under ropes you might just end up in a creek or going off a big drop that you were not prepared for
I assume this is the case for many resorts. When there’s a roped off area there’s probably a reason for it.
the thick tree areas with unexpected drops and areas that close out into shitty creek valleys where you’d have to hike out come to mind.
Lots of those ropes are there to keep you from having a bad or really inconvenient time, I assume.
Its because if you use the lift to get up to the top the legal system has established that the owner of that lift is responsible for what happens to you in certain regards.
Like lets say you get off the chair and start trekking over to lodge to get a sandwich, and are instantly buried in a massive avalanche. The court might say something like, hey ski area why did you let that happen, if you’re transporting people into an area and tempting them with sandwiches you are implying it is reasonably safe to be there.
Butter4dayzI ski in the alps and you can literally go wherever you want. I have seen that America has zones in which you cannot go, “rope drops”, why is skiing off piste regulated ?
It depends on what you call off piste here as well. In North America we call not on a machine groomed run, Off Piste. I believe it is different in Europe. In Canada, resorts have Controlled Recreational Areas, which is the public land that is leased off our government to operate a ski resort on. It is a similar program in the USA. There are also a handful of resorts on private land, which changes things up a bit. In Canada we have one gondola that just goes up into the mountains for anyone to use for any reason. If you happen to have skis, you just walk off the gondola and ski whatever you want. It is similar to La Grave except the town doesn't own it and there is no avalanche control.
So, a typical NA resort has:
- Groomed runs: machine groomed 'corduroy'. AKA on-piste.
- Inbounds terrain: pow runs, moguls, chutes. Everything not groomed. AKA off piste.
- Avalanche (temporary) closures: terrain that is inbounds and could be open to public but is temporarily closed for avalanche control efforts. Indicated by a rope line and opens with so called 'rope drops'.
- Permanent closures: Terrain that is closed forever due to reasons such as unmanageable avalanche dangers, unskiable lines, land use/political issues. Indicated by a rope line with different signage. Never opens
- Backcountry: Everything outside of the operating Controlled Recreational Area, or the ski area boundary. 20 years ago many hills didn't allow you to cross into the backcountry because they thought they would be liable for any injuries sustained while you were out there, because you accessed it through their lift system. This has all but disappeared. It is illegal to stop someone from crossing into the backcountry in Canada and only a few resorts regulate it in the US. If the ski hill and the back country are on private land, it is a different issue all together and you can be stopped.
Take a look at a ski resort trail map in the Alps and North America. This will be the first clue as to how we differ. Our skiing experience is quite controlled, but once the inbounds terrain is deemed safe, we can ski it much more casually with no safety gear. The Ski resorts operate the lifts. They have ski patrol that do first aid on anyone at the resort. The Ski Patrol also do avalanche control over the entire resort where it is needed.
Because the system is set up to make a safer skiing experience, visitors are expecting a safer experience. If the resort isn't operating at a certain established standard of care and someone gets hurt (ill maintained chair lift for example) the visitor or their insurance company (usually the latter) will try and cover the costs of the injuries.
hemlockjibber8It depends on what you call off piste here as well. In North America we call not on a machine groomed run, Off Piste. I believe it is different in Europe. In Canada, resorts have Controlled Recreational Areas, which is the public land that is leased off our government to operate a ski resort on. It is a similar program in the USA. There are also a handful of resorts on private land, which changes things up a bit. In Canada we have one gondola that just goes up into the mountains for anyone to use for any reason. If you happen to have skis, you just walk off the gondola and ski whatever you want. It is similar to La Grave except the town doesn't own it and there is no avalanche control.
So, a typical NA resort has:
- Groomed runs: machine groomed 'corduroy'. AKA on-piste.
- Inbounds terrain: pow runs, moguls, chutes. Everything not groomed. AKA off piste.
- Avalanche (temporary) closures: terrain that is inbounds and could be open to public but is temporarily closed for avalanche control efforts. Indicated by a rope line and opens with so called 'rope drops'.
- Permanent closures: Terrain that is closed forever due to reasons such as unmanageable avalanche dangers, unskiable lines, land use/political issues. Indicated by a rope line with different signage. Never opens
- Backcountry: Everything outside of the operating Controlled Recreational Area, or the ski area boundary. 20 years ago many hills didn't allow you to cross into the backcountry because they thought they would be liable for any injuries sustained while you were out there, because you accessed it through their lift system. This has all but disappeared. It is illegal to stop someone from crossing into the backcountry in Canada and only a few resorts regulate it in the US. If the ski hill and the back country are on private land, it is a different issue all together and you can be stopped.
Take a look at a ski resort trail map in the Alps and North America. This will be the first clue as to how we differ. Our skiing experience is quite controlled, but once the inbounds terrain is deemed safe, we can ski it much more casually with no safety gear. The Ski resorts operate the lifts. They have ski patrol that do first aid on anyone at the resort. The Ski Patrol also do avalanche control over the entire resort where it is needed.
Because the system is set up to make a safer skiing experience, visitors are expecting a safer experience. If the resort isn't operating at a certain established standard of care and someone gets hurt (ill maintained chair lift for example) the visitor or their insurance company (usually the latter) will try and cover the costs of the injuries.
Yo thank you so much, I did some research myself and it coincides with what you said. Just one thing: you are never too safe in the mountains, don’t think because someone did avalanche control you can leave your gear at home. A beacon on you and a backpack really don’t hinder your experience and I always have them even if I’m skiing just outside of the groomed run. I turn on my beacon as soon as I leave my house and turn it off when I come back. Be safe ✌🏻
Butter4dayzYo thank you so much, I did some research myself and it coincides with what you said. Just one thing: you are never too safe in the mountains, don’t think because someone did avalanche control you can leave your gear at home. A beacon on you and a backpack really don’t hinder your experience and I always have them even if I’m skiing just outside of the groomed run. I turn on my beacon as soon as I leave my house and turn it off when I come back. Be safe ✌🏻
That is actually the difference between Europe and NA. I agree, a transceiver and backpack aren't a bad idea and really not that intrusive. However, you would also have to ski in a group, manage the group like you were in the backcountry, and be in a position to retrieve your friend to make any of that gear worthwhile. It is common practice to ski alone inbounds. While I have worn my transceiver a handful of times in bounds when it was insanely deep and wind loaded/high avy danger but that is exceptionally rare. The avalanche control is done to such a high degree and so thoroughly throughout the year that inbounds avalanches are literally the least of your concern. I can only think of one death in Canada in recent history. You are more than likely going to be injured from being swept off a cliff from slough than actually being buried.
Early season at Kicking Horse has three weeks of dozens of people boot packing over the majority of the avalanche terrain. This breaks up the early season layers that cause persistent weaknesses. From then on, they are only dealing with storm slabs. Terrain is opened quickly after it snows so this snow hardly has a chance to become a cohesive slab. The patrol won't open terrain until they have bombed the start zones and ski cut any remaining snow in the likely start zones.
It's pretty hard to picture how different it is until you ski here.
hemlockjibber8That is actually the difference between Europe and NA. I agree, a transceiver and backpack aren't a bad idea and really not that intrusive. However, you would also have to ski in a group, manage the group like you were in the backcountry, and be in a position to retrieve your friend to make any of that gear worthwhile. It is common practice to ski alone inbounds. While I have worn my transceiver a handful of times in bounds when it was insanely deep and wind loaded/high avy danger but that is exceptionally rare. The avalanche control is done to such a high degree and so thoroughly throughout the year that inbounds avalanches are literally the least of your concern. I can only think of one death in Canada in recent history. You are more than likely going to be injured from being swept off a cliff from slough than actually being buried.
Early season at Kicking Horse has three weeks of dozens of people boot packing over the majority of the avalanche terrain. This breaks up the early season layers that cause persistent weaknesses. From then on, they are only dealing with storm slabs. Terrain is opened quickly after it snows so this snow hardly has a chance to become a cohesive slab. The patrol won't open terrain until they have bombed the start zones and ski cut any remaining snow in the likely start zones.
It's pretty hard to picture how different it is until you ski here.
Yeah sounds super differen, hopefully one day I’ll be able to come and see for myself
eheathBecause people in 'MERICA are dumb and when they do dumb things they sue people, even though it's their fault.
Also there are a ton of regulations with the Forest Service which most resorts in western side of the country have lease agreements with to run their resorts within a certain boundary line.
But, every resort with decent side country aka terrain outside of the resort boundary will open when avalanche conditions settle a bit.
There is some actual need for roping off terrain, at least here in Mammoth. Most of the alpine avy-prone terrain is above intermediate slopes. If someone triggered a slide off the top, it could wreck some people on low angle blues below. We saw that last year when the top broke off and slid clear through some (luckily closed) blue/green groomers.
in utah a lot of it has to do with avalanche control. They don't want to be blowing people up with dynamite or the howitzer cannon or burying people by the resulting avalanches. Also, avalanches sometimes go all the way into the road, so on high risk days they have to regulate things to keep the road safe. I actually think little and big cottonwood canyon do an outstanding job allowing people to explore while keeping everyone mostly safe
-eREKTion-There is some actual need for roping off terrain, at least here in Mammoth. Most of the alpine avy-prone terrain is above intermediate slopes. If someone triggered a slide off the top, it could wreck some people on low angle blues below. We saw that last year when the top broke off and slid clear through some (luckily closed) blue/green groomers.
Yeah I have no idea how they actually do things in Europe, but the idea that there is no rope lines, no guidance and no avy control sounds like a complete death trap every time avy conditions go to hell.
‘Oh we don’t maintain this cornice you should just know not to drive your car on the highway in the winter.’
hemlockjibber8It depends on what you call off piste here as well. In North America we call not on a machine groomed run, Off Piste. I believe it is different in Europe. In Canada, resorts have Controlled Recreational Areas, which is the public land that is leased off our government to operate a ski resort on. It is a similar program in the USA. There are also a handful of resorts on private land, which changes things up a bit. In Canada we have one gondola that just goes up into the mountains for anyone to use for any reason. If you happen to have skis, you just walk off the gondola and ski whatever you want. It is similar to La Grave except the town doesn't own it and there is no avalanche control.
So, a typical NA resort has:
- Groomed runs: machine groomed 'corduroy'. AKA on-piste.
- Inbounds terrain: pow runs, moguls, chutes. Everything not groomed. AKA off piste.
- Avalanche (temporary) closures: terrain that is inbounds and could be open to public but is temporarily closed for avalanche control efforts. Indicated by a rope line and opens with so called 'rope drops'.
- Permanent closures: Terrain that is closed forever due to reasons such as unmanageable avalanche dangers, unskiable lines, land use/political issues. Indicated by a rope line with different signage. Never opens
- Backcountry: Everything outside of the operating Controlled Recreational Area, or the ski area boundary. 20 years ago many hills didn't allow you to cross into the backcountry because they thought they would be liable for any injuries sustained while you were out there, because you accessed it through their lift system. This has all but disappeared. It is illegal to stop someone from crossing into the backcountry in Canada and only a few resorts regulate it in the US. If the ski hill and the back country are on private land, it is a different issue all together and you can be stopped.
Take a look at a ski resort trail map in the Alps and North America. This will be the first clue as to how we differ. Our skiing experience is quite controlled, but once the inbounds terrain is deemed safe, we can ski it much more casually with no safety gear. The Ski resorts operate the lifts. They have ski patrol that do first aid on anyone at the resort. The Ski Patrol also do avalanche control over the entire resort where it is needed.
Because the system is set up to make a safer skiing experience, visitors are expecting a safer experience. If the resort isn't operating at a certain established standard of care and someone gets hurt (ill maintained chair lift for example) the visitor or their insurance company (usually the latter) will try and cover the costs of the injuries.
well put
VinnieFIs it really that much effort to type "some"?
