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Possible to unscrew ski bindings for packing and later screw them back into the same place?
I'm asking for a friend. He's got two pairs of skis and one of them is a pretty massive powder ski. There is no way both his skis will fit into his ski bag for traveling either side by side or with the bindings staggered together.
Are the mounting holes on skis like those on snowboards where the holes themselves are tapped with metal threads? Or is unscrewing the bindings and then screwing them back into the same place not possible?
It is possible but NOT RECOMMENDED. There are not metal threads lining the mount, and the bindings are glued into the wood of the ski. Pulling them out and then putting them back in will stretch the hole and make it much more likely they pull out. Buy a new ski bag.
Either get a bigger ski bag, drop the cash to have a shop mount quiver killers, or mount them yourself. I have moved bindings around skis before, but once a season max, and if you don't do quiver killers, make sure to use wood glue to seal all the holes, or else the core will get soggy and no one wants that.
Yeah so long as your friend is not a fool when it comes to tools he will be fine. I once had one pair of bindings for 3 pairs of skis and I moved them a couple of times a week. Worked fine just carful to nose destroy the threads and a little wood glue each time.
cannonballerSo do it for the trip out (that's once)? Then what? Give the skis away instead of bringing them home and doing it a second time?
Get quiver killers or similar inserts. The wood that the screws have threaded into will get weakened significantly every time you remove and replace screws.
It is possible but NOT RECOMMENDED. There are not metal threads lining the mount, and the bindings are glued into the wood of the ski. Pulling them out and then putting them back in will stretch the hole and make it much more likely they pull out. Buy a new ski bag.
tomPietrowskiYeah so long as your friend is not a fool when it comes to tools he will be fine. I once had one pair of bindings for 3 pairs of skis and I moved them a couple of times a week. Worked fine just carful to nose destroy the threads and a little wood glue each time.
Both of these answers are useful. It's not recommended to reuse holes for a reason but in most cases, if you're careful and just do it once for this trip, your friend will most likely be ok, 95 times out of 100. Everyone saying it will weaken the holes is technically correct, each time you use the same holes the mount IS less strong. But like Tom has done, I know plenty of people who have done this repeatedly (5+times) in the same ski and had no issues. I have personally reused holes on the skis I ride for the NS reviews at least twice on multiple occasions and never had an issue caused by that (because I get more skis than bindings and like to switch skis to compare without going to quiver killers... i've also ripped bindings out of brand new holes). Essentially the answer is yes, your friend can do this and the odds are it'll be ok but there is a risk involved.
I'd even say this: Des anyone have any proof that reusing a hole weakens its strength? Has anyone actually done any testing on this? No. No, none of you have.
Reusing a hole will probably negligibly affect its holding strength. Why would it? When you unscrew the screw it doesn't affect any of the wood surrounding the hole. Screw it back in to where it was and the only difference will be it will no doubt be more likely to back out. You should be putting wood glue in anyways to prevent water getting in and this stops the screw from backing out at all anyways.
Reuse the hole as many times as you like. Doesn't matter.
I'd even say this: Des anyone have any proof that reusing a hole weakens its strength? Has anyone actually done any testing on this? No. No, none of you have.
Reusing a hole will probably negligibly affect its holding strength. Why would it? When you unscrew the screw it doesn't affect any of the wood surrounding the hole. Screw it back in to where it was and the only difference will be it will no doubt be more likely to back out. You should be putting wood glue in anyways to prevent water getting in and this stops the screw from backing out at all anyways.
Reuse the hole as many times as you like. Doesn't matter.
I'd even say this: Des anyone have any proof that reusing a hole weakens its strength? Has anyone actually done any testing on this? No. No, none of you have.
Reusing a hole will probably negligibly affect its holding strength. Why would it? When you unscrew the screw it doesn't affect any of the wood surrounding the hole. Screw it back in to where it was and the only difference will be it will no doubt be more likely to back out. You should be putting wood glue in anyways to prevent water getting in and this stops the screw from backing out at all anyways.
Reuse the hole as many times as you like. Doesn't matter.
That's a solid troll right there. I believe space x is moving to 9mm deep wood threads for their critical fasteners on the falcon rocket, so if it works for them I think it should be safe.
crawleyThat's a solid troll right there. I believe space x is moving to 9mm deep wood threads for their critical fasteners on the falcon rocket, so if it works for them I think it should be safe.
Please explain: how does unscrewing then screwing back to the same torque weaken the pull-out strength of a screw into wood?
VinnieFITT: people who know nothing about the properties of wood and construction in general.
that's kind of the point, though, isn't it? yes, this is possible, but NOT something you should be advising some dude asking about it online to do, he's clearly not someone who should be doing this... he asked if they have metal threads like a snowboard. the answer in this situation is no, leave the bindings on the fucking skis and get a bigger bag or something!
VinnieFPlease explain: how does unscrewing then screwing back to the same torque weaken the pull-out strength of a screw into wood?
Sounds like you got it sorted. Just curious, what torque do you usually tighten to? Do you have much experience with other self tapping screws? What is the typical pre load on the wood threads? Does wood successfully release a preload without yielding? Do you mark the screws so the same screw goes in the same hole, or do you not mind the thread distortion using two different screws causes in soft materials? Do you think the wood glue damages the threads when you back out the screw?
To be fair, it's true that:
I've done this in the past with success
Wood threads will never fail
crawleySounds like you got it sorted. Just curious, what torque do you usually tighten to? Do you have much experience with other self tapping screws? What is the typical pre load on the wood threads? Does wood successfully release a preload without yielding? Do you mark the screws so the same screw goes in the same hole, or do you not mind the thread distortion using two different screws causes in soft materials? Do you think the wood glue damages the threads when you back out the screw?
To be fair, it's true that:
I've done this in the past with success
Wood threads will never fail
When reusing a hole I tighten until it snugs up nicely. I've used a huge variety of fasteners in a ton of different materials enough to know when to stop and not strip anything. No torque spec necessary. I bet I'm repeatable within about 10% every time. Wood glue is used to seal and stop it from backing out.
I mean, technically all wood screws are self tapping. So yea a lot. Dunno why that's relevant. Also used tek screws a ton in aluminum and sheet metal.
Why are you talking about preload on wood screws? Wood screws don't preload. There's no stretch involved on them. The wood itself has give. Wood will rebound a certain amount when unscrewed. Less and less each time. This isn't an issue so long as you tighten to where you tightened the first time and have glue to stop if from backing out.
Yea my screws stay in the same binding holes. Although even if they didn't the negligible difference between screws will be made up for with wood glue.
No. Wood glue does not damage the thread. The wood glue doesn't budge. Sheer strength of wood glue on metal is much less than on wood so screws come out without any glue on them. This is obvious.
I'm at maybe 5 remounts in the same holes on one pair of skis. No issues at all.
I wouldn't trust 100 mounts, simply because adding more glue each time will eventually cause the wood to pack out and I'm sure you'll start to have a bulge forming around the hole.
VinnieFPlease explain: how does unscrewing then screwing back to the same torque weaken the pull-out strength of a screw into wood?
The body of the screw is supposed to be smaller than the hole, as you screw it in the threads bite into the wood as they are wider than the body of the screw. Every time you screw and unscrew into the hole you are causing friction and widening the hole leaving less material for the threads to bite into. Pretty simple. You could replicate this on a 2x4.
First off, if you dont have reuse the holes, dont. Its one thing if your testing skis and have 8 skis and 5 bindings that you switch out, but if its just a matter of getting a new bag, get the new bag. Sure you can do it, but why would you if a new bag will solve the problem now and for the future.
I work as a shop tech, and have seen many skis come in with pullouts from reused holes and helicoils inserted into reused holes. you can certainly fuck up re-using holes, so saying there is no risk is pretty irresponsible.
You can get away with doing it if you are careful, but i definetly would not recommend it. Make sure that the original holes that were drilled weren't stripped, and that you dont strip the threads with new screws inserted. You need to be careful with all aspects of mounting bindings, especially if you are new to it. Always seal the screws with wood glue, epoxy if you are really worried and wont be moving them around again.
Once again, If you are going to do this, be careful, every time you remove the screws and put them back in, you set a different thread in the hole, removing more material. I've seen countless home mounted binding pullouts and problems from people that didnt do their due dilligence. Its not hard to mount skis, but small errors can be costly if you aren't paying attention.
edited for disclaimer
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 1:36:59pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 1:37:42pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 1:38:19pm
Rum_HamThe body of the screw is supposed to be smaller than the hole, as you screw it in the threads bite into the wood as they are wider than the body of the screw. Every time you screw and unscrew into the hole you are causing friction and widening the hole leaving less material for the threads to bite into. Pretty simple. You could replicate this on a 2x4.
OK I give you a challenge.
Take your normal wood screw and your 2x4. Screw one in and leave it and the other screw in and out 10 times making sure not to double thread and making sure not to screw past where you put it the first time. On the last time snug it in.
Now figure out how to attach some hydraulic puller with a pressure gauge and pull each screw until it gives.
Exactly how much difference was there?
Repeat 30 times. Any significant difference between the two?
Take your normal wood screw and your 2x4. Screw one in and leave it and the other screw in and out 10 times making sure not to double thread and making sure not to screw past where you put it the first time. On the last time snug it in.
Now figure out how to attach some hydraulic puller with a pressure gauge and pull each screw until it gives.
Exactly how much difference was there?
Repeat 30 times. Any significant difference between the two?
also, you getting too technical man. Some kid is gonna try and remount his skis on a stripped ass hole and rip out thinking you can "reuse the same hole as much as needed". Not double threading is harder than it sounds, not overturning on a drill without a clutch with a binding in between the screw head and ski is harder than it sounds. This is an irresponsible thing to be digging your heels in over dude.
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 3:27:56pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 4:16:06pm
also, you getting too technical man. Some kid is gonna try and remount his skis on a stripped ass hole and rip out thinking you can "reuse the same hole as much as needed". Not double threading is harder than it sounds, not overturning on a drill without a clutch with a binding in between the screw head and ski is harder than it sounds. This is an irresponsible thing to be digging your heels in over dude.
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 3:27:56pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 4:16:06pm
Honestly it's not that hard to not fuck up. If it's just this trip he needs them he can easily just take them to a shop and have them put them back on and take them off for him.
What do you guys think a shop does when we warrenty a bindin or we need or we need to fix a edge delam etc? We take the binding off a rfully and put it right back in the same holes.
Those saying it can't be done, do you have experience of this regularly going wrong? If not perhaps it's worth listening to people who do this for a job haha.
tomPietrowskiThose saying it can't be done, do you have experience of this regularly going wrong? If not perhaps it's worth listening to people who do this for a job haha.
that's exactly it though, of course this seems to be a reasonable solution to you guys. but for OP's friend it's not and it's super ill advised.
it's like if a dude walked into a shop and asked hey do, uh cars have replaceable brake pads? and the guys go yeah man they do, and you should totally change them yourself! he really, really shouldn't if that's the level of question he's asking.
tomPietrowskiHonestly it's not that hard to not fuck up. If it's just this trip he needs them he can easily just take them to a shop and have them put them back on and take them off for him.
What do you guys think a shop does when we warrenty a bindin or we need or we need to fix a edge delam etc? We take the binding off a rfully and put it right back in the same holes.
Those saying it can't be done, do you have experience of this regularly going wrong? If not perhaps it's worth listening to people who do this for a job haha.
dawg if you read my earlier post I said I do do this for a job.
If its done right it shouldnt, but yes I have seen plenty of skis come in where bindings pulled out with helicoils inserted into reused holes, as well as pullouts as a result of people reusing holes. My main point was some kid with a hand drill in his garage whos never mounted skis before could most certainly fuck that up.
My point isnt whether or not this is possible to do, we do it here if we need to. Its that someone who doesnt mount skis or work in a shop shouldnt be fucking around with it themselves.
It’s great that so many ski industry veterans have no problem switching bindings between skis, but remember the OP: someone without any idea how bindings are mounted. Is there a theoretical way that this can work without issue? Totally. Should OP (or his friend) start working on his own bindings without any experience, on his own, at the advice of a forum? Hell no. Are there a variety of ways in which this can be fucked up, even by people who have done this lots? You bet. OP, please use caution and know that this can potentially go badly, potentially strip the holes, and possible weaken the interface between THE ONLY THING HOLDING YOU ONTO YOUR SKIS, which also happen to be the ONLY PIECE OF SAFETY EQUIPMENT on your setup
flip_flopzdawg if you read my earlier post I said I do do this for a job.
If its done right it shouldnt, but yes I have seen plenty of skis come in where bindings pulled out with helicoils inserted into reused holes, as well as pullouts as a result of people reusing holes. My main point was some kid with a hand drill in his garage whos never mounted skis before could most certainly fuck that up.
My point isnt whether or not this is possible to do, we do it here if we need to. Its that someone who doesnt mount skis or work in a shop shouldnt be fucking around with it themselves.
Ok so as I said the op should take his skis to a shop and have them do it if he is at all worried. A shop won't fuck that up and if they do they will make it right. Why bother with quiver killers or other options if a simple, viable, solution is available?
tomPietrowskiOk so as I said the op should take his skis to a shop and have them do it if he is at all worried. A shop won't fuck that up and if they do they will make it right. Why bother with quiver killers or other options if a simple, viable, solution is available?
A bigger bag is a simple, viable solution. Help the kids protect their gear and not ruin their own skis. Two mounts at most shops is going to be close to the cost of the bag, and with more hassle and potential issues, even if a shop fixes it. Let’s not get hung up on the fact that this is potentially possible at the cost of OP (or his friend’s) knees
also, you getting too technical man. Some kid is gonna try and remount his skis on a stripped ass hole and rip out thinking you can "reuse the same hole as much as needed". Not double threading is harder than it sounds, not overturning on a drill without a clutch with a binding in between the screw head and ski is harder than it sounds. This is an irresponsible thing to be digging your heels in over dude.
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 3:27:56pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 4:16:06pm
Moral of this story then:
If you have to ask: no, don't reuse the holes.
If you have the skills and knowledge to not ask: go right ahead.
fuzzybabybunnyI'm asking for a friend. He's got two pairs of skis and one of them is a pretty massive powder ski. There is no way both his skis will fit into his ski bag for traveling either side by side or with the bindings staggered together.
Are the mounting holes on skis like those on snowboards where the holes themselves are tapped with metal threads? Or is unscrewing the bindings and then screwing them back into the same place not possible?
Dude, I do this all the time... but my rig is designed for it because I moved to a Binding Freedom Setup. Since I always have to travel for big mountains, I had the same issue. With that system it takes about 10 minutes to switch your bindings over, but I can travel with 3 pairs of skis and one set of bindings.
If your buddy ones to one-off switching bindings then whatever I guess some other people have said its possible... but this system makes it something you can do all the time and make that your permanent solution.
I have been running all my skis with this since about 2013/2014 or so. It takes way longer to mount your skis, and you absolutely need the correct width of brakes for your widest ski (Bending just destroys the ski brakes) but it works great.
thehighestllamaA bigger bag is a simple, viable solution. Help the kids protect their gear and not ruin their own skis. Two mounts at most shops is going to be close to the cost of the bag, and with more hassle and potential issues, even if a shop fixes it. Let’s not get hung up on the fact that this is potentially possible at the cost of OP (or his friend’s) knees
Fair enough I guess if he wants to spend a couple of hundred on a new bag it's an option. But just to take off and put bindings in some old holes is not going to cost even close to that. But whatever the op wants to do is up to him but people saying it can't be done is just wrong.
tomPietrowskiFair enough I guess if he wants to spend a couple of hundred on a new bag it's an option. But just to take off and put bindings in some old holes is not going to cost even close to that. But whatever the op wants to do is up to him but people saying it can't be done is just wrong.
No one said it couldn't be done, people just advised against it as a first solution, and advised against someone unfamiliar with mounting skis to do it in general.
I just don't see the advantage for this kid to go to multiple different shops to have his bindings messed with, when a new bag would solve this problem this time, and every future time he wants to travel with multiple skis.
Just cause I have a press sitting outside and some free time today:
Did it once, so this is by no means reliable. I did this to the extreme of what any ski binding would undergo. I passed a slightly bent (because of the first pressing) screw back and forth maybe 10 times. So total of roughly 20 inches of screw movement (this would be the equivalent of remounting a ski hole maybe 25 times without any glue being used). No in and out pressed to ~3700 lbs before release, in and out to ~3300 before release. Maybe if I'm really bored some day I'll do it again.
So using a bunch of guestimations one could conclude from this that a ski hole will loose ~10% of its holding power after ~25 times reused so long as you don't double thread or strip it or get water damage or anything.
Conclusion: So yes, reusing a hole will make it loose some hold strength, but doing it a few times will make negligible (probably not even measurable with my press) difference. So absolutely go ahead with a remount. Just know what you're doing and maybe keep it to under 10 times a hole?
I also learned that 2 inches of thread from a #10 wood screw can hold 3700 lbs when drilled into a slightly too large tap hole in maple. Pretty impressive.
tomPietrowskiFair enough I guess if he wants to spend a couple of hundred on a new bag it's an option. But just to take off and put bindings in some old holes is not going to cost even close to that. But whatever the op wants to do is up to him but people saying it can't be done is just wrong.
No one in this thread said that it wasn’t possible, you’re arguing with no one. What LOTS of people are saying is remounting into the same holes is not a reliable solution, especially given the complete lack of experience OP and his friend have. You even said this in a previous post. To frame this as a simple task and to SERIOUSLY downplay the possibility of ruining the equipment or causing injury to the skier is irresponsible. Again, no one said this isn’t possible, but inadvisable for this individual in this case. Don’t get hung up on the fact that you can and have done this.
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 6:45:15pm
VinnieFJust cause I have a press sitting outside and some free time today:
Did it once, so this is by no means reliable. I did this to the extreme of what any ski binding would undergo. I passed a slightly bent (because of the first pressing) screw back and forth maybe 10 times. So total of roughly 20 inches of screw movement (this would be the equivalent of remounting a ski hole maybe 25 times without any glue being used). No in and out pressed to ~3700 lbs before release, in and out to ~3300 before release. Maybe if I'm really bored some day I'll do it again.
So using a bunch of guestimations one could conclude from this that a ski hole will loose ~10% of its holding power after ~25 times reused so long as you don't double thread or strip it or get water damage or anything.
Conclusion: So yes, reusing a hole will make it loose some hold strength, but doing it a few times will make negligible (probably not even measurable with my press) difference. So absolutely go ahead with a remount. Just know what you're doing and maybe keep it to under 10 times a hole?
I also learned that 2 inches of thread from a #10 wood screw can hold 3700 lbs when drilled into a slightly too large tap hole in maple. Pretty impressive.
black diamond did something similar and got different results...
All I'm seeing in that is distance from previous hole. They don't say the results from screwing in, backing out, then screwing in again. Probably because doing it just once does't have a measurable difference from whatever gauge they were using.
VinnieFAll I'm seeing in that is distance from previous hole. They don't say the results from screwing in, backing out, then screwing in again. Probably because doing it just once does't have a measurable difference from whatever gauge they were using.
I dont want to argue the nuances of this experiment, because both you and black diamond acknowledged that the tests were imperfect. Black diamond found that just 2mm away from a pre-existing hole had 20% of the pullout strength, and determined their was a decrease in pullout strength the closer you get to the pre-existing hole. I assume they didn't re-use the hole because they said they didn't recommend doing that in the intro.
Honestly, I am going to test this because I am almost positive that a correlation between decreased pullout strength and re-using holes exists, and that it can't be dubbed as chill because you put a screw in a 2x4 in a press. Give me a few days and I'll get back to you.
Edited for clarity **This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 7:04:59pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 7:07:37pm
flip_flopzI dont want to argue the nuances of this experiment, because both you and black diamond acknowledged that the tests were perfect. Black diamond found that just 2mm away from a pre-existing hole had 20% of the pullout strength, and determined their was a decrease in pullout strength the closer you get to the pre-existing hole. I assume they didn't re-use the hole because they said they didn't recommend doing that in the intro.
Honestly, I am going to test this because I am almost positive that a correlation between decreased pullout strength and re-using holes exists. In a few days I will post results.
Well we were testing two totally different thing. They were testing distance from existing hole and I was testing reusing an existing hole.
If you have some way of testing pullout strength of screws that would be really interesting (I can only do push through strength, so it only works as a proxy if the screw it long enough to poke through the wood).
Because this is actually really interesting I'm going to see what I can do for a better test
VinnieFJust cause I have a press sitting outside and some free time today:
Did it once, so this is by no means reliable. I did this to the extreme of what any ski binding would undergo. I passed a slightly bent (because of the first pressing) screw back and forth maybe 10 times. So total of roughly 20 inches of screw movement (this would be the equivalent of remounting a ski hole maybe 25 times without any glue being used). No in and out pressed to ~3700 lbs before release, in and out to ~3300 before release. Maybe if I'm really bored some day I'll do it again.
So using a bunch of guestimations one could conclude from this that a ski hole will loose ~10% of its holding power after ~25 times reused so long as you don't double thread or strip it or get water damage or anything.
Conclusion: So yes, reusing a hole will make it loose some hold strength, but doing it a few times will make negligible (probably not even measurable with my press) difference. So absolutely go ahead with a remount.
Don’t tell someone who thought that skis had metal inserts like a snowboard to “absolutely” go forward with this work. Your test proves that those materials, under those conditions, with whatever forces you were applying, doesn’t move the screw a discernible amount. While you put a lot of force on the screw I’m not sure how good of a test this is. As you said, skis are much different, where bindings experience sheering, pushing, pulling, and torque. The functionality of the binding relies on solid fitment into the ski. A mismounted binding is a safety concern, please don’t rely on experiments like this to “prove” that someone else should do this work without any real repercussions. If you have time, look into the research done on climbing bolts that are drilled DEEP into solid rock (often epoxied too). Different situation but a similar take away: imperfection between material and fastener/bolt has real effects.
thehighestllamaNo one in this thread said that it wasn’t possible, you’re arguing with no one. What LOTS of people are saying is remounting into the same holes is not a reliable solution, especially given the complete lack of experience OP and his friend have. You even said this in a previous post. To frame this as a simple task and to SERIOUSLY downplay the possibility of ruining the equipment or causing injury to the skier is irresponsible. Again, no one said this isn’t possible, but inadvisable for this individual in this case. Don’t get hung up on the fact that you can and have done this.
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 6:45:15pm
No you said that for this guy he should not do it. What I said is it's fine to do so long as you know what you are doing. Possibly op does not know but a shop well. Op goes to shop spends maybe $20 and is good to go and maybe even will learn how to do it himself next time. Learning to do things only comes with experience and if the op can learn this simple task from a shop imagine what else he could also learn. But whatever. Op can do whatever works but saying it is not possible is just not right.
flip_flopzI dont want to argue the nuances of this experiment, because both you and black diamond acknowledged that the tests were imperfect. Black diamond found that just 2mm away from a pre-existing hole had 20% of the pullout strength, and determined their was a decrease in pullout strength the closer you get to the pre-existing hole. I assume they didn't re-use the hole because they said they didn't recommend doing that in the intro.
Honestly, I am going to test this because I am almost positive that a correlation between decreased pullout strength and re-using holes exists, and that it can't be dubbed as chill because you put a screw in a 2x4 in a press. Give me a few days and I'll get back to you.
Edited for clarity **This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 7:04:59pm
**This post was edited on Apr 17th 2018 at 7:07:37pm
I did a better test. Although I need to repeat it many many times to actually get good numbers.
This is what I did this time:
I have some longer binding screws (from an FKS?). I cut a piece of maple to 1/2", drilled a bunch of holes, and screwed it in until it's flush with the bottom of the wood.
Then I gave it ye ol pressing and these are the results:
So all this really tells me is wood can be fairly inconsistent and you need to do a proper set of 30 repeats. I did far to few tries so it's nearly impossible to say anything definitive about it.
If you average the 0 remounts and the 5 remounts then the 5 remounts is 96.8% the strength of the 0 remounts. But honestly, this can't be done without doing far more tries.
I might do this again and do a serious number of goes on say 0, 2, 5, and 10 remounts. We'll see.
My bet is it won;t be linear. It will be something like you'll hold 95%+ of your strength up to x remounts (maybe 4 or 5?) then it will drop of fast. Who knows. Something to try when I'm bored.
