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May, 2025

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Thoughts on Religon

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SterlingArcher
Posts: 2200 - Karma: 2,456
I have not been "religious" for some time but have always felt spiritual in a sense. I've been doing alot of research and reading into Zaoism/Daoism, Pantheism. I've had alot of conversations with coworkers who came from all backgrounds from Wicca, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc and am just curious for those of you who've explored other avenues what your thoughts are on self-exploration and other non traditional belief systems??
9 years ago
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SterlingArcher
Posts: 2200 - Karma: 2,456
Yeah I spelled religion wrong..
9 years ago
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Nikolaus
Posts: 863 - Karma: 1,000
all a bunch of crap
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
Physical claims require physical evidence. Untill some religion produces evidence to support the existence of the deity they claim exists, I give no more credibility to one religion over another. So what am I saying, whether you follow a mainstream religion or as you put it, or a non traditional belief system, you are faced with the same problem. What grounds do you have to stand on and say that your Beliefs are sound?
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Honestly as a Christian I have my own beliefs but, I will by no means oppose the beliefs of another person every person was made with the ability to express ones self and how you choose to do that should be your own choice. Also my only advice is that whatever you do choose to cohere to make sure that you feel it is right for you and that it does not cloud you defame your vision of other people. Great thread OP cool to see some deeper shit on new schoolers.
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Honestly as a Christian I have my own beliefs but, I will by no means oppose the beliefs of another person every person was made with the ability to express ones self and how you choose to do that should be your own choice. Also my only advice is that whatever you do choose to cohere to make sure that you feel it is right for you and that it does not cloud you defame your vision of other people. Great thread OP cool to see some deeper shit on new schoolers.
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Honestly as a Christian I have my own beliefs but, I will by no means oppose the beliefs of another person every person was made with the ability to express ones self and how you choose to do that should be your own choice. Also my only advice is that whatever you do choose to cohere to make sure that you feel it is right for you and that it does not cloud you defame your vision of other people. Great thread OP cool to see some deeper shit on new schoolers.
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Honestly as a Christian I have my own beliefs but, I will by no means oppose the beliefs of another person every person was made with the ability to express ones self and how you choose to do that should be your own choice. Also my only advice is that whatever you do choose to cohere to make sure that you feel it is right for you and that it does not cloud you defame your vision of other people. Great thread OP cool to see some deeper shit on new schoolers.
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Honestly as a Christian I have my own beliefs but, I will by no means oppose the beliefs of another person every person was made with the ability to express ones self and how you choose to do that should be your own choice. Also my only advice is that whatever you do choose to cohere to make sure that you feel it is right for you and that it does not cloud you defame your vision of other people. Great thread OP cool to see some deeper shit on new schoolers.
9 years ago
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Swandog7
Posts: 4957 - Karma: 9,033
One thing that I hate is people who say they believe in whatever religion they believe in, they don't even relatively follow it. "I'm a christian, i believe in God and go to church" bullshit is so annoying, as a fellow Christian, I'm being a little bit of a hypocrite because I do it too, but no one actually follows God, they simply believe in him which is dumb, because you aren't really being christian. If people actually stopped arguing over translations and started actually following of whatever text they follow, the world would be a better place. If people only loved thy neighbor as themselves
9 years ago
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SterlingArcher
Posts: 2200 - Karma: 2,456
JGWIPhysical claims require physical evidence. Untill some religion produces evidence to support the existence of the deity they claim exists, I give no more credibility to one religion over another. So what am I saying, whether you follow a mainstream religion or as you put it, or a non traditional belief system, you are faced with the same problem. What grounds do you have to stand on and say that your Beliefs are sound?


I agree with what you're saying about religions that believe in a deity, idol, or physical entity. However, some belief systems (pantheism or zaoism for example) is more of a philosophical tradition than religion. I don't believe you need to provide credibility to a philosophy or a deep ethical belief. So my point is some beliefs don't require sound evidence because the whole belief system is based on self enlightenment, following the essence of your own way in harmony, or reverence for the cosmos/nature
9 years ago
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Slush
Posts: 1916 - Karma: 12,961
JGWIPhysical claims require physical evidence. Untill some religion produces evidence to support the existence of the deity they claim exists, I give no more credibility to one religion over another. So what am I saying, whether you follow a mainstream religion or as you put it, or a non traditional belief system, you are faced with the same problem. What grounds do you have to stand on and say that your Beliefs are sound?


I dunno about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure that ability to believe in something that isn't physically visible is faith. We just have to have faith that he's there. The bible talks a lot about this, as well as having faith in God's actions and decisions ect


Swandog7One thing that I hate is people who say they believe in whatever religion they believe in, they don't even relatively follow it. "I'm a christian, i believe in God and go to church" bullshit is so annoying, as a fellow Christian, I'm being a little bit of a hypocrite because I do it too, but no one actually follows God, they simply believe in him which is dumb, because you aren't really being christian. If people actually stopped arguing over translations and started actually following of whatever text they follow, the world would be a better place. If people only loved thy neighbor as themselves


This gets me so much. Being a Christian isn't just being a believer. It's also about following God's will and looking to grow in your faith and a whole bunch of other stuff
9 years ago
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
wait hold on..... you work with witches?
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
SterlingArcherI agree with what you're saying about religions that believe in a deity, idol, or physical entity. However, some belief systems (pantheism or zaoism for example) is more of a philosophical tradition than religion. I don't believe you need to provide credibility to a philosophy or a deep ethical belief. So my point is some beliefs don't require sound evidence because the whole belief system is based on self enlightenment, following the essence of your own way in harmony, or reverence for the cosmos/nature


Very true.
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
SlushI dunno about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure that ability to believe in something that isn't physically visible is faith. We just have to have faith that he's there. The bible talks a lot about this, as well as having faith in God's actions and decisions ect




This gets me so much. Being a Christian isn't just being a believer. It's also about following God's will and looking to grow in your faith and a whole bunch of other stuff


Yeah I see what you are saying. I guess I ought to explain where I am coming from. I believe evidence is the only path to truth regarding the natural world. Now that's not to say conclusions can't be drawn based on circumstantial evidence, apologetics uses this a lot. However, a hypothesis must be well motivated based on that evidence to have any credibility. So yes, you can have faith in gods existence, however, I could have faith that their are kangaroos living in the volcanos of Venus. Obviously one can never prove that claim to ever be right or wrong but based on what we know, is it reasonable to have such a belief? No.
9 years ago
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270on420out
Posts: 7524 - Karma: 51,324
So many fedoras in this thread
9 years ago
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JWillySkeez
Posts: 424 - Karma: 1,100
Sorry for quadruple post I have no idea what the fuck happened there XD
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWIYeah I see what you are saying. I guess I ought to explain where I am coming from. I believe evidence is the only path to truth regarding the natural world. Now that's not to say conclusions can't be drawn based on circumstantial evidence, apologetics uses this a lot. However, a hypothesis must be well motivated based on that evidence to have any credibility. So yes, you can have faith in gods existence, however, I could have faith that their are kangaroos living in the volcanos of Venus. Obviously one can never prove that claim to ever be right or wrong but based on what we know, is it reasonable to have such a belief? No.


So, right now, whats your best explanation for how matter, time, and the universe came into existence?


Twiddle me that :)
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrownSo, right now, whats your best explanation for how matter, time, and the universe came into existence?


Twiddle me that :)


I don't know! And that is a perfectly fine position. Not knowing the answer to a question does not give one free reign to just assert things. As I said before, truth is reviled through evidence and well motivated postulates. There are several hypothesis out there as to how things began. The difference between them and those brought forward be the different religions is they are well motivated given our current understanding of the universe.
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWII don't know! And that is a perfectly fine position. Not knowing the answer to a question does not give one free reign to just assert things. As I said before, truth is reviled through evidence and well motivated postulates. There are several hypothesis out there as to how things began. The difference between them and those brought forward be the different religions is they are well motivated given our current understanding of the universe.


there are a lot of theories out there, champ. which one makes the most sense to you?


Saying "IDK" means that you have never actually thought about it. If you have thought about it, you have a best guess that you likely are not overly confident in.
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrownthere are a lot of theories out there, champ. which one makes the most sense to you?


Saying "IDK" means that you have never actually thought about it. If you have thought about it, you have a best guess that you likely are not overly confident in.


I'm not one to talk out my butt so I would rather leave the question of which of which theory is the best explanation of the origin of our universe as we know it to the physicists, you know...those people that actually understand the physics behind all this and can make reasonable claims that have marrite. I do know currently most physicists would agree that the Big Bang model is the best available explanation as to how our universe came to be. As for what was before that I...D...K and neither do you nor anyone else because we don't know anything about the state of things before the Big Bang and the machanics start to break down. That's a good thing though! It means there is something left to learn.
9 years ago
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SterlingArcher
Posts: 2200 - Karma: 2,456
.Hugo.wait hold on..... you work with witches?


One guy I work with and his wife are wiccan. He bought a broom the other day and was talking about it. I made wise cracks about it to him, but the more he talked about the beliefs I actually learned something. Never knew it's based around respecting or worshipping nature. Personally it's not something I'd practice because I don't believe in performing spells or worshipping in idol, but it was interesting to hear his thoughts. It was a little like Shamanism or some branch of Pagan.
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWII'm not one to talk out my butt so I would rather leave the question of which of which theory is the best explanation of the origin of our universe as we know it to the physicists, you know...those people that actually understand the physics behind all this and can make reasonable claims that have marrite. I do know currently most physicists would agree that the Big Bang model is the best available explanation as to how our universe came to be. As for what was before that I...D...K and neither do you nor anyone else because we don't know anything about the state of things before the Big Bang and the machanics start to break down. That's a good thing though! It means there is something left to learn.


so instead of thinking about it and learning about possible theories and figuring out what you think is the likeliest... you just say youre too dumb and lazy to learn or think about it, shrug your shoulders, drool on yourself, and walk away.

i hope i never give up thinking and learning.
9 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
SterlingArcherI agree with what you're saying about religions that believe in a deity, idol, or physical entity. However, some belief systems (pantheism or zaoism for example) is more of a philosophical tradition than religion. I don't believe you need to provide credibility to a philosophy or a deep ethical belief. So my point is some beliefs don't require sound evidence because the whole belief system is based on self enlightenment, following the essence of your own way in harmony, or reverence for the cosmos/nature


Belief is simply holding an idea that you think to be true, whereas knowledge is a belief with a true account. I can believe that unicorns exist, but I cannot know (as of right now) that unicorns exist. Knowledge requires that a belief be observed, measured, tested, etc. So simply having a belief doesn't require sound evidence, but to claim to have knowledge does require sound evidence.

Similar and related to knowledge is truth. A statement is said to be true because it corresponds to what is or is not the case (my name is Matt, my name is not Phil are both true statements). A statement can also be true because of its logical form, such as the categorical syllogism:
All A are B
All B are C
All A are C

You can plug whatever you want into the syllogism above and it will be true in that it is logically valid, but in order to be logically sound it requires factually true variables to be used. So when something is logically valid, it doesn't mean that it exists. Existence is not a logical predicate- existence requires scientific proof.

So, the idea of God is one that can be thought of logically and in meaningful ways. But the same goes for unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, and tooth fairies. They can all be thought of but they cannot be known to exist merely because we can think them. If something is not able to be observed, measured, tested, etc. then it cannot be known.
9 years ago
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bananabrains
Posts: 133 - Karma: 390
Karma is my religion.
9 years ago
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6747 - Karma: 11,771
Swandog7If people actually stopped arguing over translations and started actually following of whatever text they follow, the world would be a better place.


Do you really think that if people started following the LITERAL words in the Bible (or Qur'an) that we would be better off? The Bible gives us divine authority to commit genocide, slavery, stoning of adulterers, stoning of non-virgins, anti-Semitism, sexism, and the death/mistreatment of homosexuals. Is that really what this world needs more of? The only reason modern Christians are peaceful people is because they are ignoring the horrific and barbaric parts of their religious text and keeping the peaceful parts. The last thing we need is for people to go back to the text and literally follow it.

If you really want people to be good and moral, we do not need religion at all in order to do this. What we need to do is use our practical reason (that reason which is directed toward action and causes you to question those odd parts of the Bible that call for stoning women on their father's doorstep), discuss it often, and educate ourselves constantly about what we ought to do. Moral education is what we need, not religion.
9 years ago
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
SterlingArcherOne guy I work with and his wife are wiccan. He bought a broom the other day and was talking about it. I made wise cracks about it to him, but the more he talked about the beliefs I actually learned something. Never knew it's based around respecting or worshipping nature. Personally it's not something I'd practice because I don't believe in performing spells or worshipping in idol, but it was interesting to hear his thoughts. It was a little like Shamanism or some branch of Pagan.


Burn those fuckers
9 years ago
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chris.goodhue
Posts: 946 - Karma: 6,213
Went to a Catholic high school and Christian Middle School. My mom is very fervent in beliefs as a follower of Christ. I respect people's beliefs, I personally don't follow any religion right now. I find myself believing in something more, but definitely have a strong belief in science.

What gets me worked up though is intolerance, on both sides. Christians that think others are wrong for not believing and vice versa. If everyone could just let everyone else believe what they want this world would be a much better place.

Now I will say, I have met some amazing people who are Christians that are tolerant and loving. And I have met others that are not so much. I think deep down, Religion is meant to be peaceful and for the better, but people interpret it in any way they want, which leads to hate. But for some, like my mother, it's a huge, very important part of their life. And for many people it is huge in allowing them to feel accepted, forgive, heal, grow and be in community. And I think people, no matter what belief, desire that. Obviously there are bad examples and people have been very hurt by religion. I am just stating what I have seen as something who has been around it for years, but doesn't follow it.
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrownso instead of thinking about it and learning about possible theories and figuring out what you think is the likeliest... you just say youre too dumb and lazy to learn or think about it, shrug your shoulders, drool on yourself, and walk away.

i hope i never give up thinking and learning.


No, It's not as if I don't understand any of the science behind it. I just realize that I given my limited knowledge I do not have the ability to make claims of which theories are more likely. I wouldn't walk into a ddx and tell everyone that the patient has AIDS when I know nothing of the patient or medicine. It's not being lazy, it is recognizing my place.
9 years ago
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MIHoodlum
Posts: 245 - Karma: 257
I accept that I don't know. All organized religions do is seperate us. That is why I love Christians and Muslims talking down on each other, shows youth they are close to gangs. However I think some people do require that kind of intangible emotional solice to be nice to others.
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWINo, It's not as if I don't understand any of the science behind it. I just realize that I given my limited knowledge I do not have the ability to make claims of which theories are more likely. I wouldn't walk into a ddx and tell everyone that the patient has AIDS when I know nothing of the patient or medicine. It's not being lazy, it is recognizing my place.


So you do not dispute that God could be behind it all.
9 years ago
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stinky_cheese
Posts: 1221 - Karma: 5,175
JWillySkeezSorry for quadruple post I have no idea what the fuck happened there XD


This post is worse than the quadruple post

the "XD"….

stab yourself
9 years ago
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qazwsxedc34
Posts: 2955 - Karma: 2,135
Religion can be corrupted and a furtive religious institution can be corrupted absolutely. Nonetheless, it is true that we all know about religious blunders and atrocities but we forget to acknowledge the beautiful things of religion. Religion has helped give amenity and comfort to poverty stricken and sickened people. It offers places of refuge to ruminate and think about how to rid of the ego and seek a higher power within themselves, whether this be a spark from Jesus or a saint is beside the point, as this spark is a real experience and can change a person in profound ways.

That being said, I agree that established religious institutions have been absolutely corrupted. However, I think it is important to explore the earliest form of a religion because all religion stems from at one time, spiritualism. An example would be a Gnostic Cathar. A belief system in which they believe in a demiurge and the state of suffering we live in, similar to the philosophy of a Tibetan Buddhist. Ridding of the material world, earthly desires and ruminating on the kingdom within like meditation, doesn't seem too nutty to me. At least they believed in what they were doing and continuously kept at it, creating a safe community for woman and children. Seems like in today's world we are moving further and further away from volunteerism and instead seeking our urges and desires. Although, Cathars are considered one of the purest forms of Christianity the established religious institution known as the Roman Catholic church slaughtered almost all of the cathars. Thou shall not kill did not apply to the Roman Catholics I guess. In any case, killing and war was abhorrent to Catharism and surprisingly it was also a great sin to think anything less of a woman. They were equally capable of being spiritual leaders, which undermined the very concept of gender held by the Catholic Church and of course this did not go unnoticed.

My point is when we seek to discover religion in its truest form and I'm particularly talking about Christianity but other religions and belief systems also apply we start to understand that the institution of a religion is a facade, a hindrance and a gatekeeper to the objective truths that almost all pure belief systems try to address. Our body is the temple or the kingdom of heaven, or Samadhi or whatever, I don't know but almost every belief system addressed the ridding of the ego through purging, fasting, celebrating and dancing. Something I think a lot of westerners need to do.
9 years ago
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qazwsxedc34
Posts: 2955 - Karma: 2,135
Self enlightenment and spiritual emancipation is what every religion initially tried to preach but got corrupted in doing so. You do not need physical evidence to give credibility to a real, subjective experience. Leave the good religious, spiritual monks alone. People focus so much on badmouthing religion that they forget to recognize that they themselves are the ones being most destructive.
9 years ago
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,197
Im from Idaho which has a heavy mormon influence since the mecca of the mormons is 2 hours away.

I just don't like the hate that goes on here. Either you are mormon, or you hate mormons. Very few individuals can respect it without following it. I was raised mormon and my best friend is mormon. Ive seen a lot of good from the religion, but personally its just not for me. Still have a lot of respect for it though since both my dad and my best friend are mormon. My dad is best friends with a muslim, its crazy. Then you have all the immature people my age hating on the religion. If you don't agree thats fine but have some class and respect. Also another thing I don't like is how people go on missions because of their parents. If you believe In God and want to serve him then go on a mission, but if you do it to make your parents happy then you'll just waste 2 years of your life and be upset.
9 years ago
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skierman
Posts: 8600 - Karma: 9,520
Religion is for people who are too stupid to function on their own.
9 years ago
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GayWolf420
Posts: 38097 - Karma: 129,729
Personally not religious, was never raised religious. Believe what you want, but it has absolutely no place in politics/government, it shouldnt be used to discriminate against anyone or anything because of your "beliefs" especially extremism, and the rest of us decent folk dont need to deal with anyones religious bullshit everyday.

Our lives and laws and of the land and rights shouldnt be dictated by a bunch of old white christian dudes because the good book said so. Its fucked up places like Utah are heavily influenced by religion in government.
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrownSo you do not dispute that God could be behind it all.


Yep, he could be behind it all. But pretty much all evidence points to that not being the case.
9 years ago
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skierman
Posts: 8600 - Karma: 9,520
.lenconIm from Idaho which has a heavy mormon influence since the mecca of the mormons is 2 hours away.

I just don't like the hate that goes on here. Either you are mormon, or you hate mormons. Very few individuals can respect it without following it. I was raised mormon and my best friend is mormon. Ive seen a lot of good from the religion, but personally its just not for me. Still have a lot of respect for it though since both my dad and my best friend are mormon. My dad is best friends with a muslim, its crazy. Then you have all the immature people my age hating on the religion. If you don't agree thats fine but have some class and respect. Also another thing I don't like is how people go on missions because of their parents. If you believe In God and want to serve him then go on a mission, but if you do it to make your parents happy then you'll just waste 2 years of your life and be upset.


People hate on your religion because of their constant interference in public policy in and outside of Utah. People hate your religion because of how blindly patriarchal the LDS organization is. People hate your religion because they preach acceptance but do the exact opposite especially towards their LGBT members of family and of church. People hate your religion because to be in good standing within the church, you have to fork over 10% of your income. People hate your religion because the church doesn't care where that money comes from. "Oh biggest cancer charity scammers in the history of the US? Well that's OK, when you're caught we will keep that money instead of returning it to the victims." And finally I think people hate your religion because they twist the words of the Old Testament and even their own religious documents to fit their specific needs and then call them "revelations".
9 years ago
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milk_man
Posts: 5252 - Karma: 5,975
JGWIPhysical claims require physical evidence.


Physical claim? Since when is the spiritual world physical?
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWIYep, he could be behind it all. But pretty much all evidence points to that not being the case.


i thought you werent smart enough to understand any of the evidence or theories? I guess that doesnt apply when their is the chance to put down religon, right? K. Glad we cleared that up.
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
milk_manPhysical claim? Since when is the spiritual world physical?


Since when is anything not physical?
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrowni thought you werent smart enough to understand any of the evidence or theories? I guess that doesnt apply when their is the chance to put down religon, right? K. Glad we cleared that up.


Ugggg. Sure.
9 years ago
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,488
.lenconIm from Idaho which has a heavy mormon influence since the mecca of the mormons is 2 hours away.

I just don't like the hate that goes on here. Either you are mormon, or you hate mormons. Very few individuals can respect it without following it. I was raised mormon and my best friend is mormon. Ive seen a lot of good from the religion, but personally its just not for me. Still have a lot of respect for it though since both my dad and my best friend are mormon. My dad is best friends with a muslim, its crazy. Then you have all the immature people my age hating on the religion. If you don't agree thats fine but have some class and respect. Also another thing I don't like is how people go on missions because of their parents. If you believe In God and want to serve him then go on a mission, but if you do it to make your parents happy then you'll just waste 2 years of your life and be upset.


I heard that in slc brother brighams back is to the church and his hand is reaching out towards the bank. Thats fuckin golden
9 years ago
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brett_fisher
Posts: 2419 - Karma: 10,518
i wouldn't ask other people just find what works for you everyone has different view and thats chill just find yours .
9 years ago
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
JGWIUgggg. Sure.


Ain't it a bitch when you realize that you have a pretentious, hypocritical way of thinking?
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
californiagrownAin't it a bitch when you realize that you have a pretentious, hypocritical way of thinking?


Yep, I'm a close minded uninformed a-hole who should just go crawl back into my cellar. Forget, rational inquary and evidence based logic. That stuff has never done anything for us anyways.
9 years ago
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milk_man
Posts: 5252 - Karma: 5,975
JGWISince when is anything not physical?


Materialism is hard to defeat when someone has a post-modern worldview. I just can't comprehend that anyone could think that humans don't have souls. That goes hand in hand with saying that everything is physical and that is your argument against the existence of God
9 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
milk_manMaterialism is hard to defeat when someone has a post-modern worldview. I just can't comprehend that anyone could think that humans don't have souls. That goes hand in hand with saying that everything is physical and that is your argument against the existence of God


Care to elaborate on why you find it so hard to comprehend?
9 years ago
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fries
Posts: 2978 - Karma: 7,522
Sometimes I feel like religion is messed up. Especially the scare tactics like "ah yea love jesus or you're going to hell, sorry!"

i'm not necessarily christian but i wouldn't consider myself atheist either. idk.
9 years ago
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,197
.Hugo.I heard that in slc brother brighams back is to the church and his hand is reaching out towards the bank. Thats fuckin golden


not sure if true but that would be funny
9 years ago
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