Post college life rant

californiagrownIn short, you can work less and stress less the higher you go but that is the exception. the vast majority will work more and stress more the higher they rise.

Sno.specifically? What do you want to do for the public sector and for which agency/city?

californiagrownCity Engineer. Possibly for a Utility district.

Sno.Yeah--that's what is at the top of the ladder.

This is what Boggs said ..."You just have to figure out if you're willing to make sacrifices now so that you can live a better life when you're older, more settled down, with a wife, kids, etc"-- did you take this as him talking about being in your 30s?



I don't think that what I wrote is the exception to the rule.



What is your engineering job and for what company?

californiagrownYes, executives are the exception to the rule.

Yes, 30's and 40s. Ya know, the normal years to be raising kids? I know i dont want to be working 55+ hours a week constantly checking email and stressing when im 30-40 and raising kids.

You dont think executives at tech firms and Real Estate company owners are the exceptions? You and Mitt Romney would get along well. Illl give you a heads up: retiring at 40 is an exception. Owning a $2 million house is the exception.

Civil Engineer, worked for a high profile firm in the Bay Area, a national firm in the seattle area, and now a local firm in the seattle area along with various other internships. My perspective comes from myself, my friends and their parents- from blue collar to executives at big boy companies... and a few in between.

OG_lockGraduated a few months ago am now working 55+ hours a week. Get to see my girlfriend about once a week... Schedules clash due to my work and her being in grad school. I just bought a house. I guess this is where the rant comes in. I have become consumed with planning for the future. I hate taking days off cause I feel like I'm losing money. Have lost all desire to travel or go out with friends. I simply work and will only see friends if they're joining me to play golf. I have been trying to talk myself out of buying a Porsche just to get a sense of youth or excitement. Literally realities and stresses of supporting myself have consumed me and I feel like maybe I should be less responsible like some of my high school and college peers and be enjoying these mid twenties and not thinking much about life down the road. Anyone else in this spot in life? Ps typed this on mobile so it may be shitty

Sno.Ok-- this argument is draining and pointless. You selectively ignore and bend things that I say which is super irritating.

I brought up a number of people ranging from blue collar construction workers, public sector employees, and entrepreneurs, to private corporation executives--all as examples of people where life got better as they moved up in the company. I didn't just mention people in the 1%--your examples are much more in line with the upper 1% than mine.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point. Your original statement was that things don't get any easier or better as you move up the ladder. I simply stated it depended on your line of work. You're the one who asked for examples, so I gave some.

californiagrowna construction worker, a highly succesful real estate broker, a couple who retired at 40, an owner of a $2 million house, and a few high tech executives. yes, very broad range of economic situations.

Damn, i thought i was getting away from this bubble mentality when i moved up here, guess it still exists to some extent.

californiagrowna construction worker, a highly succesful real estate broker, a couple who retired at 40, an owner of a $2 million house, and a few high tech executives. yes, very broad range of economic situations.

californiagrownYes, executives are the exception to the rule.

Yes, 30's and 40s. Ya know, the normal years to be raising kids? I know i dont want to be working 55+ hours a week constantly checking email and stressing when im 30-40 and raising kids.

You dont think executives at tech firms and Real Estate company owners are the exceptions? You and Mitt Romney would get along well. Illl give you a heads up: retiring at 40 is an exception. Owning a $2 million house is the exception.

Civil Engineer, worked for a high profile firm in the Bay Area, a national firm in the seattle area, and now a local firm in the seattle area along with various other internships. My perspective comes from myself, my friends and their parents- from blue collar to executives at big boy companies... and a few in between.

Sno.Are you serious? Bubble?

To be successful in your career, you aren't necessarily doomed to high stress levels and no free time.

I think you need to re-read your posts. It isn't me that's in the bubble.

californiagrownYeah, i was talking about working your way up the corporate ladder, which is what OP is doing. that takes decades to get to the executive level... you just skip over those decades like they dont exist.

Not everyone is destined to become an executive, most will stop in middle mgmt. the exceptions are the executives.

Sno.I agree. We're talking about two completely different perspectives. You're talking about private, corporate america only, and I'm talking mostly about the exceptions to private, corporate america. I think the exceptions to private corporate america represent the vast majority of workers.

I was trying to make the point that there are many lines of work where you can work your way up to more freedom, free time, money, and less hours.The majority of my knowledge and experience comes from the public sector and blue collar workers moving up. I mentioned the other examples (AT&T, tech workers, entrepreneurs) to show that my experience isn't just limited to the public sector, though, and that it also includes examples of success in other areas of work.

Certainly I have experience with people like you're talking about--who have worked their way up to more hours, more stress, and less freedom--but those are examples of your point, not mine, and you asked for examples of my point.

As far as the majority of people not moving beyond middle mgmt--in the public sector if you work your way up to middle management, you will experience fewer hours, less stress, higher pay, and more autonomy. So I was including middle managers in my examples of people who have reached success.

californiagrownI was speaking to the OP, giving him advice based upon my experiences and perspectives.. I guess you were not.

And thats the big reason why im planning to get into the the public sector once im ready to have kids, totally. but i think it'd be cool to see where hard work, youthful energy, and no real responsibilities takes me before i really put my career on the back burner and go to work in the public sector.

californiagrowncare to elaborate?

BogsI know a number of people who work these higher power jobs (private equity firms, big, national banks), who, after working their way up the ladder for the early part of their career, are able to pretty much set their own work schedule at this point, and can afford to do pretty much whatever they want outside of work (vacations in awesome places, own multiple homes, heli ski trips, etc). Sure they still work a lot and work hard, but that's because they like what they do, and just the kind of people they are. Granted these are guys in their 40's or 50's, so they've been at it for a few decades now, but they all say it's way less stressful at the top then when they were just starting out and had people above them breathing down their necks all the time and they didn't have a choice but to work 60+ hours a week.

californiagrownGenerally you dont get to the top unless you enjoy the hell out of the work. But thats still working an awful lot.


I was speaking to the OP who is a few months out of school and has decades of busting ass and increasing responsibility and stress till he gets to the point you describe. What i have been saying is that it will get worse before it gets better, a lot of other folks just seem to ignore the years and years of work it takes to get to those higher levels where it can ease off for some.

BogsRight, obviously it gets worse before it gets better, but it does eventually get better if you keep at it/are good at what you do/are lucky. That's why I talked about making sacrifices for the sake of giving your kids and family a really good life when you do eventually make it higher up.

californiagrownI think that would be giving your kids and family a shit life if you are stress case, busy all the time, and too old to be a truly involved parent. 40-50 is too late to be raising a family IMO.

Money doesnt make a good life. a good life makes a good life... especially when it comes to raising kids.



It seems like people are now backtracking and admitting that yeah, as the OP continues on his career path it will actually get more stressful, and more time consuming. only at the end will, MAYBE, he be able to back off.

Sno.you are insufferable--I wont even respond to your last paragraph.

That being said, most people I know who have had kids are raising them well into their 40s and many into their 50s. To have your kids out of the house by 40 you'd have to have them in your very early 20s. Did you mean 40-50 is too late to start a family in your opinion?

californiagrownI think that would be giving your kids and family a shit life if you are stress case, busy all the time, and too old to be a truly involved parent. 40-50 is too late to be raising a family IMO.

Money doesnt make a good life. a good life makes a good life... especially when it comes to raising kids.



It seems like people are now backtracking and admitting that yeah, as the OP continues on his career path it will actually get more stressful, and more time consuming. only at the end will, MAYBE, he be able to back off.

BogsI dunno, my dad was one of those people, and he always found a way to make time for his kids. I have four siblings. He coached all of us in sports, went to all of our games, always found time to make it to school events, even coming to things me and my siblings told him not to bother with.

Sure, he wasn't one of those dads who came home from work and sat down and watched tv with us on the couch (you're right that, even at home, if there was nothing important happening, he would still be sending emails, making phone calls, etc) and maybe that's the kind of quality time you're thinking of, but he never missed a single important family related event. And I know many of his partners are the same.

californiagrownI think they should be out of the house by 50. Its amazing how much your energy level declines as you get older, and i think people should be very active in their kid's life. If you are doing the corporate grind into your late 40's early 50's you are missing in your child's life.

californiagrownThat is a huge part of raising a child IMO. Connecting with them, hanging out with them, molding them. Especially when they are young. When they get to teen age that doesnt happen so what your pops did works. But i want to be involved in my kids life, not just a caretaker and an observer.


IDK. Ive seen too many parents that were parents in name and appearance only. Work was as important as their children, and it seemed work was more important much of the time.

BogsOkay. Well different people find different ways to make things work for them. You're making a lot of "I think" and "IMO" statements. Surely you can admit that yours isn't the definitive and only acceptable way to make life work? Of course there are people out there who focus on their career at the expense of their family life, but there are just as many who figure out a way to find a balance between the two. Pretty narrow minded of you to act like being a good parent and having a high maintenance job are mutually exclusive, which is what it seems like you are doing.

californiagrownNo, but its nearly impossible IMO.

BogsIf you say so

californiagrownI feel like you dont know what IMO stands for...

BogsYou just seem unusually certain that your opinion is absolutely right and all others are absolutely wrong

californiagrownSo i need to write an introductory paragraph explaining that i havnt scientifically tested my opinion or POV?

I kinda thought the qualifiers "i think" and "IMO" would do that just as well.

BogsJudging by Sno's reaction, I don't think I'm alone in thinking this way.

BogsNo, but pretty much every time somebody in the thread has said something that doesn't line up with your opinion, you've essentially laughed in their face then gone on to explain why they're wrong and you're right. Just doesn't seem like somebody who considers their opinion much different from written-in-stone fact.

Judging by Sno's reaction, I don't think I'm alone in thinking this way.

californiagrownI absolutely believe in my stance, and i use anecdotal evidence to support my view. and yes, when ridiculous things were said, i called them out as ridiculous.

Sno.That's the thing-- you declare what other people say as "ridiculous," but then when someone doesn't agree with you, you accuse them of not understanding what an opinion is.

californiagrownwell, when i ask for some standard examples of folks working less as they rise through the system you picked the most exceptional examples possible. Hell you even threw the radical Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation vacation policy in there haha. I thought it was implied that i wasnt asking for exceptions.


If you said that skinny skis arent that great for pow, and then i responded by saying that ive seen Thall, Jeremy Nobis and Skogen Sprang, SethMo and my buddy Jake rip on some skinny skis, would you think that was a ridiculous response?

californiagrownI absolutely believe in my stance, and i use anecdotal evidence to support my view. and yes, when ridiculous things were said, i called them out as ridiculous.

californiagrownthe most exceptional examples possible[QUOTE]

and again-- its your OPINION that my examples are the "most exceptional possible."

It is MY opinion that public sector workers, blue collar workers, entrepreneurs, tech workers, corporate executives, and people who work for large corporations that offer good benefits are NOT the most exceptional examples possible. They're merely examples from a broad array of fields, in MY OPINION.

But I guess my opinion is wrong, and yours is correct, and everyone works in a suit for corporate America and is working their way to a high-stress, high-hour job in middle mgmt.

OP may as well quit his job right now.

Sno.That's not what happened. First, you're choosing to put much more weight on a few of the examples that I gave, rather than on my main and first response which was public sector employees. I was including hundreds of thousands of workers in that first "public sector employees" response, and the majority of the people that I'm closest with--which I've already said is the majority of my family.

Then I gave you examples from other areas of work based on my personal experiences. The example of the construction worker was also an example that represented hundreds of thousands of similar workers. But you're extremely hung up on the other few people that I mentioned.

You also said that you were "speaking about corporate America," and I gave an example of how many corporations offer perks like more vacation, flexible schedules and freedom if you can work hard enough to get there--the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation was an example of that. What's wrong with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? You think just the upper 1% work there? You must have NO IDEA what the foundation is.

BogsWhere I come from, "absolute belief" and "opinion" don't really line up.

Except those "ridiculous" statements turned out to be pretty in line with your own, and if they weren't, they were backed up with anecdotal evidence that was at least as strong as your own. I conceded that your opinion that many times people don't find the right balance between work and home and often end up sacrificing family life for their work is absolutely valid. You maintain that it is "almost impossible" to be a good parent while holding a high intensity job, despite all the examples Sno and I listed pointing to the contrary. These don't seem like the actions of a person who believes their opinion is far from cold, hard fact.
I could list a whole bunch of people I know who do a really good job of balancing a demanding job with being a good parent and spouse, but will it make any difference? How many examples would I have to give before you reconsidered your opinion?

But I'm tired and my head hurts (not that that's related to this). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and I hope you at least consider that you haven't been nearly as open-minded as you could have been.

californiagrownReally hundreds of thousands of construction workers end up well off, stress free and having a bunch of free time?

Sno.And before someone comes in here and tells us we're all a bunch of ignorant fucks, because the vast majority of workers are actually minimum wage line workers-- all of my posts are under the assumption that you are privileged enough to have access to higher education and the advantages of the middle class, like OP and the other posters in the thread.

Sno.You take everything so literally-- I said representative--certainly it doesn't have to be CONSTRUCTION--maybe its a landscaping company, maybe its a manufacturer of commercial forklifts, maybe its Home Depot....yes, I think there are hundreds of thousands of examples of people who worked their way up from entry-level workers to management with time off, benefits, perks, and balanced lives.

And no, I do not think that I live some sort of strange life, where every single person I am surrounded by or know has some extremely rare situation that is the exception to your "rule" for what you believe the vast majority of the population does for a living.

I don't think the "vast majority" of workers are suit-and-tie corporate workers. I think the vast majority of workers fall outside that box, and fall all over the map, and there are many opportunities for people to work hard to achieve success. I think the broad array of people I'm surrounded by is a better "sampling" of people than the group you stated, which was "finance, marketing, sales, and education executives."

You will not accept my opinion, thoughts, or experiences though. You are hell bent in trying to straw-man, bend, and belittle me into changing my mind. I guess my experiences don't count.

Sno.I never belittled your experiences. I'm done being trolled.