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What is "hardway" trick in ski?

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yu.pang.12
Posts: 39 - Karma: 173
I know that in SB, hardway is to set off the spin direction opposite to your carving direction.
But what's the meaning in ski? Like in the latest slvsh video http://www.slvsh.com/posts/58 , the term appears many times. If it's the same as in SB, I don't see much carving at the take off. Or the term is just the individual's unnatural direction? (But as a pro, you're suppose to master both directions.)
I don't understand.
Jul 21 2015 10:08PM
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BAYKUR
Posts: 344 - Karma: 2,579
for rails in this case it refers to sliding the rail with your opposite foot in front as opposed to how you normally slide the rail.

For jumps in this case it just means you are spinning the opposite way you usually would.

Hope this helped!
Jul 21 2015 10:21PM
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Mr.noodle
Posts: 1361 - Karma: 4,650
In the pipe it's called ally oop
Jul 21 2015 10:41PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5205 - Karma: 20,183
Mr.noodleIn the pipe it's called ally oop


allyoop is spinning uphill in the pipe instead of downhill, has nothing to do with natural spin direction
Jul 21 2015 10:53PM
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jensen
Posts: 2575 - Karma: 1,250
ski-bolafor rails in this case it refers to sliding the rail with your opposite foot in front as opposed to how you normally slide the rail.

For jumps in this case it just means you are spinning the opposite way you usually would.

Hope this helped!


No.


Hardway is a lipslide spin onto a rail or an opposite carve on a jump. I.E. if you approach a rail from the left, spin left 270 onto the rail, and slide left foot forward. Hardway refers to the direction of the spin, not the direction of the slide.
Jul 21 2015 10:58PM
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Mr.noodle
Posts: 1361 - Karma: 4,650
Mr.noodleIn the pipe it's called ally oop


Oh I didnt watch the video but it seems like the skateboarding version would be ally oop
Jul 21 2015 11:05PM
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Chubz.
Posts: 13918 - Karma: 25,656
Isnt hardway just an unnatural spin?
Jul 21 2015 11:19PM
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casey_cope
Posts: 675 - Karma: 3,398
before I would've said alley oop or lip slide is hard way but I guess it can mean unnatural since it is harder to spin unnatural.
Jul 21 2015 11:32PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5674 - Karma: 4,227
We sometimes use "hard way" to refer to bs spins from fakie, since those seem to be harder and that's agreed upon, at least with who I skate with. But you'd never call a bs spin from regular (meaning normal riding position, goofy or regs) as hard way. You'd just call it backside. This probably depends on who you skate with.

I never use it with skiing, but if I did it'd be my unnatural spin direction or grinding with my other foot forward. I feel like they refer to blind or not blind out sometimes, although I'm not sure which is considered easier. Who knows...
Jul 21 2015 11:33PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,291
jensenNo.


Hardway is a lipslide spin onto a rail or an opposite carve on a jump. I.E. if you approach a rail from the left, spin left 270 onto the rail, and slide left foot forward. Hardway refers to the direction of the spin, not the direction of the slide.


^

THIS

Any spin beyond lipslide. If you hopped on like you were going to lipslide but did a 270, etc that's hardway. You spin left on the left side, right on the right side, spinning away from the rail tails over first.

DrZoidbergWe sometimes use "hard way" to refer to bs spins from fakie, since those seem to be harder and that's agreed upon, at least with who I skate with. But you'd never call a bs spin from regular (meaning normal riding position, goofy or regs) as hard way. You'd just call it backside. This probably depends on who you skate with.

I never use it with skiing, but if I did it'd be my unnatural spin direction or grinding with my other foot forward. I feel like they refer to blind or not blind out sometimes, although I'm not sure which is considered easier. Who knows...


I don't think that's right. I mean every sport had it's own terms and some don't have the same meaning between sports but I feel like this is unlikely.

And in skiing it's the same as snowboarding. It has nothing to do with your natural spin or natural foot forward but how you spin onto the rail.





That said. I've generally heard this referred to as lip 270, 450 lip etc vs. saying hardway. Meaning the same thing that snowboarders would call hard way but still called lip with the rotation added to note the spin.

That might not be a THING. But that's what I've heard. And as far as the rest that's a confirmed thing in snowboarding.
Jul 22 2015 1:40AM
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Big_Mtn
Posts: 551 - Karma: 1,647
If you're talking about carving right, spinning right (or the other way around) I hear that called opp carve.
Jul 22 2015 2:25AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,291
In skiing



but moreso reffered to as this



Knuckledragging

Jul 22 2015 3:30AM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,082
Pretty sure in the slvsh video its used to describe the unnatural way of spinning. Why they did it that way is beyond me but there is no trick that is 'hardway' in skiing, comparing to true snowboarding term.
Jul 22 2015 3:47AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,291
theabortionatorIn skiing



but moreso reffered to as this



Knuckledragging



https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/776666/Hardway-270

but moreso reffered to as this

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/668524/Alex-Bellemare-lip-270-disaster

Knuckledragging

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/776667/Danny-G-Hardway-270-Trick-Tip

damn i suck at late night embedding
Jul 22 2015 4:49AM
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rcasey
Posts: 347 - Karma: 1,575
eheathPretty sure in the slvsh video its used to describe the unnatural way of spinning. Why they did it that way is beyond me but there is no trick that is 'hardway' in skiing, comparing to true snowboarding term.


Exactly, it really made no sense considering even Lupe and Cody referred to them as unnatural. I can understand calling lip 2 on "hard way" because it's comparable to snowboard hardway 2s but for anything else, just calling them left and right spins makes wayy more sense
Jul 22 2015 8:46AM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
hardway is spinning lip onto a rail. does honestly nobody get this shit?
Jul 22 2015 10:12AM
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413Crew
Posts: 1636 - Karma: 5,612
Chubz.Isnt hardway just an unnatural spin?

i used to think hard way was a lip on hahaha
Jul 22 2015 10:12AM
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ndye
Posts: 3756 - Karma: 7,088
Big_MtnIf you're talking about carving right, spinning right (or the other way around) I hear that called opp carve.


That would be a regular carve
Jul 22 2015 2:36PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,466
413Crewi used to think hard way was a lip on hahaha


It is..... as long as its 270 or higher
Jul 22 2015 3:11PM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,082
jason...hardway is spinning lip onto a rail. does honestly nobody get this shit?


.Hugo.It is..... as long as its 270 or higher

Exactly but in skiing we just say 'lip' 2
Jul 22 2015 3:45PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,466
eheathExactly but in skiing we just say 'lip' 2


Right, i end up using both ways of saying it though. Most of my friends snowboard
Jul 22 2015 4:07PM
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jensen
Posts: 2575 - Karma: 1,250
In addition to the lipslide/hardway on rails... Sometimes snowboarders will call a backside spin off the heels or a frontside spin off the toes hardway, hence the opposite carve meaning also. 95% of the time when I hear it, hardway is in reference to a rail trick.
Jul 22 2015 6:42PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,291
jensenIn addition to the lipslide/hardway on rails... Sometimes snowboarders will call a backside spin off the heels or a frontside spin off the toes hardway, hence the opposite carve meaning also. 95% of the time when I hear it, hardway is in reference to a rail trick.


Not correct imo. Maybe with backside off the heels.
on a transfer or gap maybe though.

I honestly prefer to spin fs off the toes. Usually just a FS540 or toe edge fs 540. Something like that versus hardway.

that's just my $.02 though
Jul 22 2015 7:00PM
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mattwalker
Posts: 5063 - Karma: 2,478
The term, to my knowledge, is from snowboarding. It refers to the harder way of doing a spin onto a rail when there is two options with the same title. Example, if you're reg, you can do a front 3 onto a rail from the right lip and bring your nose over first. Or, you can do it from the left lip and put your tail over first, which is the harder way of doing that trick even though it's named the same. So, EHeath is right, it's impossible to do on skis.

We have been thinking about this recently. Ideally, everybody should be able to do everything both ways and sets should just be named left or right. However, lupe spins left/grinds right and cody is vice versa. So while we can wish they can do all of their tricks both ways, very few, if any, skiers are there yet and most games with opposite spinning players would be very lopsided. Whoever wins the RPS would almost always win.

We just got fed up with calling things "unnatural" or for a week and decided to try something else out and see what people thought. I dunno, until everybody can do their tricks both ways, what should we do in that situation?
Jul 23 2015 1:14AM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,082
mattwalkerWe just got fed up with calling things "unnatural" or for a week and decided to try something else out and see what people thought. I dunno, until everybody can do their tricks both ways, what should we do in that situation?


Unfortunately, unnatural might be the best way to describe it. Like to some skiers doing a sw right 4 on would be easier/harder for one player, same as a dub cork 10 mute. Realistically, most skiers who would do slvsh can do rail tricks both ways on a rail unless it's something huge like 2 on pretzel 3 swap or something.

So maybe unnatural for jumps, left/right for rails?
Jul 23 2015 1:22AM
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mattwalker
Posts: 5063 - Karma: 2,478
The theory being the word unnatural's synonyms are abnormal, strange, odd, etc and isnt appealing. It sounds like the "wrong" way to do something. It doesn't exactly describe, "Well, there are two ways to do this trick, I'm simply doing the direction that is harder for me" as well as hardway does. I'm definitely being too literal, but whatever. Thoughts?
Jul 23 2015 1:33AM
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perryhunter
Posts: 721 - Karma: -185
ski-bolafor rails in this case it refers to sliding the rail with your opposite foot in front as opposed to how you normally slide the rail.

For jumps in this case it just means you are spinning the opposite way you usually would.

Hope this helped!


Cool! Thanks to you. I got to know this too.
Jul 23 2015 1:47AM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,082
mattwalkerThe theory being the word unnatural's synonyms are abnormal, strange, odd, etc and isnt appealing. It sounds like the "wrong" way to do something. It doesn't exactly describe, "Well, there are two ways to do this trick, I'm simply doing the direction that is harder for me" as well as hardway does. I'm definitely being too literal, but whatever. Thoughts?


That being said, its a very common well known term around basically every skier, saying hardway just gets confusing for anyone who knows snowboarding, even a skier.
Jul 23 2015 2:25AM
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mattwalker
Posts: 5063 - Karma: 2,478
eheathThat being said, its a very common well known term around basically every skier, saying hardway just gets confusing for anyone who knows snowboarding, even a skier.


Very true.
Jul 23 2015 11:43AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8900 - Karma: 57,265
.Hugo.It is..... as long as its 270 or higher


well, 180 or higher. but yeah it basically means lip ___ on

mattwalkerThe term, to my knowledge, is from snowboarding. It refers to the harder way of doing a spin onto a rail when there is two options with the same title. Example, if you're reg, you can do a front 3 onto a rail from the right lip and bring your nose over first. Or, you can do it from the left lip and put your tail over first, which is the harder way of doing that trick even though it's named the same. So, EHeath is right, it's impossible to do on skis.

We have been thinking about this recently. Ideally, everybody should be able to do everything both ways and sets should just be named left or right. However, lupe spins left/grinds right and cody is vice versa. So while we can wish they can do all of their tricks both ways, very few, if any, skiers are there yet and most games with opposite spinning players would be very lopsided. Whoever wins the RPS would almost always win.

We just got fed up with calling things "unnatural" or for a week and decided to try something else out and see what people thought. I dunno, until everybody can do their tricks both ways, what should we do in that situation?


i like where your head's at with this--i feel like a dork saying unnatural-- but you can't just use a term that is already ubiquitous and describes something else.

im trying to think of something analogous in other sports but not coming up with much. unnatural is sort of lame but i don't think it's a misnomer or counterintuitive.

maybe for the purposes of slvsh you should just say right or left ____ but put in parentheses that it's their weak spinning side when relevant?
Jul 23 2015 12:46PM
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johnk
Posts: 232 - Karma: 2,646
Titsandwich11well, 180 or higher. but yeah it basically means lip ___ on



i like where your head's at with this--i feel like a dork saying unnatural-- but you can't just use a term that is already ubiquitous and describes something else.

im trying to think of something analogous in other sports but not coming up with much. unnatural is sort of lame but i don't think it's a misnomer or counterintuitive.

maybe for the purposes of slvsh you should just say right or left ____ but put in parentheses that it's their weak spinning side when relevant?


Well this would be extremely unfair in a game like Cody vs Lupe, where one person spins right and the other spins left.. what happens if cody has the set and only spins right and then Lupe has to do everything unnatural? seems pretty unfair to me.. IMO saying unnatural isn't weird at all and they should just keep using that term in SLVSH games. maybe just do an intro at the start saying rider a) spins left, grinds left. rider b) spins right grinds right kinda thing.
Jul 23 2015 2:40PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 8900 - Karma: 57,265
johnkWell this would be extremely unfair in a game like Cody vs Lupe, where one person spins right and the other spins left.. what happens if cody has the set and only spins right and then Lupe has to do everything unnatural? seems pretty unfair to me.. IMO saying unnatural isn't weird at all and they should just keep using that term in SLVSH games. maybe just do an intro at the start saying rider a) spins left, grinds left. rider b) spins right grinds right kinda thing.


sorry i should have been more clear. i meant do what i said, but consider natural directions for each trick. so if you spin right naturally and do a left 5, if i spin left naturally, to match i need to do a right 5
Jul 23 2015 2:54PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,291
johnkWell this would be extremely unfair in a game like Cody vs Lupe, where one person spins right and the other spins left.. what happens if cody has the set and only spins right and then Lupe has to do everything unnatural? seems pretty unfair to me.. IMO saying unnatural isn't weird at all and they should just keep using that term in SLVSH games. maybe just do an intro at the start saying rider a) spins left, grinds left. rider b) spins right grinds right kinda thing.


Well in snowboarding, I might spin better frontside. Let's say cab is the spin I struggle with the most.

SO I'm playing somebody that throws a huge cab spin. Can I say, Hey, I'd rather throw that regular frontside than switch frontside. IT'll look the same and I'll be a lot better at it.

Or from regular if somebody throw a backside spin. Instead of frontside which Im good at, I have to try a backside spin.

Idk, trying to set up a scenario there, not sure if that made any sense.

IMO unatty in skiing feels a little more awkward than spinning different directions on a board but I agree that unnatural kind of encourages people not to do it in a sense.

If I can spin to the right really, well, why spin to the left? Even though both spins look identical, would be cool to see more people spinning all 4 ways.

Always good fun when you have a smaller 4 jump line. Throw all 4 5's in a line. I feel like if it was a trick that you had to have versus being something special if you did it, more people might throw unatural spins.

Idk, I'm really just a knuckledragger at this point. I'd be lucky if I could even land a 5 on skis now.
Jul 23 2015 4:21PM
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yu.pang.12
Posts: 39 - Karma: 173
Thank you all for the in-depth explanation, it makes more sense to me now.

Using the term "hardway" is indeed confusing if one is familiar with snowboard. Especially, when in jump, "hardway" refers to the opposite spinning direction than the take off direction, not related to regular or goofy. But slvsh use it here as left/right side spin. I'd vote for "unnature" if there's no better term.

Also, introducing the player's nature spinning direction at the beginning is a good thing. Just like in snowboard, the commentator would say this player is regular/goofy, so you know when he is doing switch.
To know nature spinning direction for skier is kinda the same as to know regular/goofy for snowboarder.
Jul 24 2015 2:19AM
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