Greece votes no on austerity measures

As long as I get my Greek salads and/or Feta cheese.
I'm about that shit

In my humble, uneducated opinion;

This is fuuuuuuuucked up. I just watched Money For Nothing, made in the late 2000s, I think; and they were talking about, "what if Greece defaults on their loans??" well. they did.

This is the first time that the IMF and the World Bank's austerity measures have been imposed on a "developed" country. No shit it doesn't work, ask any number of South American countries, Poland or any other developing nation that accepted the IMF/WB's loans and conditions for them. Every time the IMF/WB has tried this type of economic 'recovery' the country has been FUCKED. period. Finally,they're starting to see that it's not an underdeveloped country that's the problem, it's the policies they imposed.

BUT - to be fair, the Greeks have a horrendous reputation for paying their own taxes and responsible use of benefits. Hey, Greece - did you pay your taxes? No? Are you surprised your country has no money?

Fuck it all. The world sucks.

Im completely ignorant to this situation so i dont have any knowledge of whats going on over there.


Did greece's economy basically go down the shitter or what?

Chubz.Im completely ignorant to this situation so i dont have any knowledge of whats going on over there.


Did greece's economy basically go down the shitter or what?

Taken from a Reddit ELI5 post. I think it sums it up nicely.

The EU is a large European supragovernmental body. Typically, the EU is described as being comprised of three pillars, Community, Foreign/Security, and Judicial/ Policing cooperation. The Eurozone is an economic community that falls under the first pillar. The Eurozone is the economic structure of a majority of the EU. The most visible aspect of the Eurozone is the currency, the Euro.

As with most ELI5 posts, it is going to very difficult to find a good medium between explaining concepts in accessible ways and retaining enough detail to accurately explain the situation, so if you're really interested, go on to do your own research. So here goes. The EU began as a plan to integrate Europe post ww2. The member states of the EU began by linking their coal and steel, the two resources most needed for war at the time. As the the ECSC(first name of the EU) grew, they other aspects of the economy were integrated once it became apparent that an integrated economy was the key to a strong economy. The EU has two overarching goals, known as widening and deepening. Deepening is the process of creating stronger bonds between the member states, typically through treaties and agreements. Widening is the process of expanding membership from the original 6 to the rest of the continent. Countries may join in waves, or independently. Greece joined in 1981, into a somewhat "deep" already EU.

There are many requirements that have to be met to be considered a candidate for membership, and even more for actual membership. Among those, the requirements most relevant to your question are the economic requirements. Greece proved to the over seeing commission that it had a competitive market economy capable of competing to a reasonable degree in the EU, and thus began integrating its markets. It's important to remember that the Euro wasn't in the early union, and was introduced after the turn of the millennium. Within reason, Greece still retained capital controls, or to manipulate the value of its currency.
There are people that claim Greece has a history of tax dodging, a left over "fuck you" to the Ottoman Empire that occupied Greece. I honestly have never been interested in this claim and have never researched it, it may or may not be true. Laws and regulations, unlike tax dodges are a matter of public record, and the laws and regulations that govern Greece's market economy can reasonably be considered as culprits for the current economic state of Greece. Whereas America had gone on a decidedly pro business rights direction, Europe took a consumer rights direction, and Greece was no exception. Whether the laws were poorly drafted, poorly maintained, poorly upheld, or something else I couldn't say with authority, but the result is obvious. Greece was over regulated.

An over regulated economy by definition actually does retard growth. An example I hear often is that businesses that sell food product have to prove a sanitary standard, which seems reasonable. This somehow includes a fecal sample. So the story goes, a man tries to start an olive oil intermediary service, buying and selling to people online. And he was asked to submit a fecal sample. It stands to reason that a government with these laws, in conjunction with possible endemic tax dodging would reap much less in taxes. Along with the pro consumer mindset, European countries overwhelmingly choose to provide generous social benefits compared to other developed nations. The EU represents a commitment to social investment, which all of its member states, some more than others are committed to.

Greece had an ailing treasury due to a combination of factors including an overly generous social plan, misguidedly encouraged by the entrenched socialist culture of Europe. As it happens, providing generous subsidies and benefits to citizens is not free, and Greece quickly fell into debt. Time and time again, Greeks voted for parties that promised to lower their debt without raising taxes or cutting programs. Remember, this is before the introduction of the Euro, so to some small degree, the government could print money, and stave of it's debt, albeit not indefinitely. This sets the stage for the entrance the lender states into the equation. Member states of the EU were more than happy to give Greece a loan. Of course, the governments could draw money from their banks to loan, and in turn the governments would owe their national banks money. Multiple member states lend to Greece, but for the purpose of simplicity I'm going to talk about the Germans. So the German government gets a loan from the German bank, to lend to the Greek government, with hopes that it will be the money Greece needs to pick itself up and reverse the direction of their economy.
The problem is the Greece does little to restructure it's laws and regulations. It doesn't come down hard on tax dodgers. The loan goes as quickly as it came, and it soon has to ask for another. The introduction of the Euro coincides with German banks getting nervous on their investment into Greek debt. Greece loses capital controls, and German banks begin pressuring the German government to pressure the Greek government to start repaying loans. At this point Greece is still stable, but it's clear that something has to change, and quickly. Bankrupt, the Greek government asks for a loan, and by now it seems unlikely it's going to be repaid. Rather than let a member state go under and possible cause a chain reaction of unpaid debt through the rest of the Eurozone, the Germans offer one more loan. This time, it comes with tougher strings attached, namely the troika.

The troika are a group of EU technocrats sent to oversee the restructuring of the Greek economy, along with the bags of cash the EU is sending. For reasons some of which I understand, and others I do not, they decide to introduce austerity. This is a decidedly anti-Keynesian move for the typically Keynesian economic policy EU. It seems it was the wrong choice. Austerity is the idea of cutting government spending to reduce debt. In theory, this seems like a reasonable solution to a debt crisis, but the government dollars being spent were contributing to the economy. Programs were slashed, unemployment soared, and the issues that the programs were meant to prevent presumably would return. This brings us up to the most recent election.
Unemployment and distrust of the EU are at an all time high. Riots in the street, the rise (and fall) of the Golden Dawn neo nazis, it seems the Greece has gone to hell. Tsipras, a far left populist leader appears on the ballot with a promise. It's essentially the same promise from the first loan, claiming to bring programs back, keep taxes low, and somehow make the debt go away. Greece showed it's collective inability to do math by electing him on his impossible platform. Tsipras goes to Brussels to play hardball with seasoned politicians like Merkel and the commission, aiming for a loan forgiveness. The card Tsipras has to play is that should Greece fall, and get kicked out of the Eurozone and possibly the EU, other nations that aren't doing well, such as Ireland and Portugal might get nervous and default or flee.

The EU recently has decided it feels confident in it's measures protecting other weaker states in the union, and is calling Tsipras' possible bluff. The question now being decided is whether or not Greece should exit the Eurozone, but it's unclear whether or not that's possible without leaving the EU. Personally, I think leaving the EU is the absolute worst thing that Greece can do. Electing a party with a platform of "WE LITERALLY WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE MONEY YOU LENT US" is choosing to never get a loan. The EU is the only legitimate source of loans, and the strings attached are better than the damage a default would cause. The Russians might give them a loan in the interest of a decentralized Europe, but that's currently not a looming danger. More immediately, Greece will cut itself off from the worlds largest single market, as well as free movement within. The unemployed Greeks won't have a chance to find jobs in the booming economies to the north like Germany and France, and more recently, the slowly recovering Italy.

The referenced post has been removed.

tl;dr:

Greece had a struggling economy due to socialist policies that were funded through debt rather than taxes. Greek politicians continued these policies while pledging to keep taxes low resulting in a perpetuating cycle.

Enter Germany who promises to loan more money with stricter restrictions on Greeces economic policies and in turn the Greeks laugh at Germany and continue their insane economic policies. Eventually everyone becomes fed up with the Greeks and starts saying no more loans.

Greece elects another socialist PM who wants to continue their path of socialist policies with low taxation while trying to tell the EU if Greece defaults others may follow. EU calls their bluff, Greece decides to have a national poll on how to handle the issue of repaying debts and Greece votes no to repaying the debts.

Ironically the Financial Minister who campaigned for this most recent vote was asked to step down by the PM today.

I just think it's hilarious that Germany- whose debt was completely forgiven after WWII is the most staunch detractor from working towards a deal. Furthermore when this DIDN'T happen after WWI... It's what led to WWII!

I mean come on Germany. Stop acting like you weren't bailed out AND forgiven for massive crimes against humanity the last time you fucked up royally- at least the Greeks didn't kill 6 million people. What a bunch of deutsch bags haha

Huck_NorrisI just think it's hilarious that Germany- whose debt was completely forgiven after WWII is the most staunch detractor from working towards a deal. Furthermore when this DIDN'T happen after WWI... It's what led to WWII!

I mean come on Germany. Stop acting like you weren't bailed out AND forgiven for massive crimes against humanity the last time you fucked up royally- at least the Greeks didn't kill 6 million people. What a bunch of deutsch bags haha

The irony is not lost on most people who know their history, but I personally think this situation is very different.

Firstly, the reparations from both wars came about due to the war, not irresponsible fiscal and monetary policy during a time of peace.

Secondly, this is a matter that affects the entire EU, not just a singular country.

But that is just me. Feel free to poke holes in my argument.

Huck_NorrisI just think it's hilarious that Germany- whose debt was completely forgiven after WWII is the most staunch detractor from working towards a deal. Furthermore when this DIDN'T happen after WWI... It's what led to WWII!

I mean come on Germany. Stop acting like you weren't bailed out AND forgiven for massive crimes against humanity the last time you fucked up royally- at least the Greeks didn't kill 6 million people. What a bunch of deutsch bags haha

Tsipras and his finance minster have been blatantly antagonizing their creditors, especially Germany. The EU's collective conditions have always been reasonable. Greece's own self-destructive and unsustainable economic culture is to blame for creditor concern and unwillingness - nothing else.

.MASSHOLE.tl;dr:

Greece had a struggling economy due to socialist policies that were funded through debt rather than taxes. Greek politicians continued these policies while pledging to keep taxes low resulting in a perpetuating cycle.

Enter Germany who promises to loan more money with stricter restrictions on Greeces economic policies and in turn the Greeks laugh at Germany and continue their insane economic policies. Eventually everyone becomes fed up with the Greeks and starts saying no more loans.

Greece elects another socialist PM who wants to continue their path of socialist policies with low taxation while trying to tell the EU if Greece defaults others may follow. EU calls their bluff, Greece decides to have a national poll on how to handle the issue of repaying debts and Greece votes no to repaying the debts.

Ironically the Financial Minister who campaigned for this most recent vote was asked to step down by the PM today.

Thanks oboma

Great post mass hole. Thanks - I had no idea about a lot of that history, but my point still stands - steep austerity measures really don't work. And great point Huck, I didn't even think about that one....

the.hellion.And great point Huck, I didn't even think about that one....

You didn't think about it because you'd need to be an emotional cretin to attempt to make a connection between Germany's unwillingness to credit Greece and the Third fucking Reich. It's a click-bait point with no substance, move along

Imf is just fucking everything up,trying to say they cant recieve medicine and shit. Its all fucked.

Scott0_robot0Imf is just fucking everything up,trying to say they cant recieve medicine and shit. Its all fucked.

Where did you get this info? Who said this?

This sounds like typical American news twisting and overreacting.. Nobody said something like that on this side of the Atlantic..
Yes they will run out of medicine in a few months if nothing happens, but no country or organization said fuck you Greek people, you cant have medicine if you dont agree with our terms.. They will get humanitarian help if needed.

Lol. And people think our Economy stinks...


But seriously, Greece was sorta screwed from the beginning... just like Ireland and Portugal who entered the eurozone during a time of abnormally good everything, the global economy faltered in the early 2000's and crashed hard as a rock during the debt crisis..

I wonder how going the route of Iceland would have worked out for Greece... it's a small nation with plenty of tourism, a well educated workforce, and a solid amount of agriculturally rich land.. if they had just given the banks a middle finger in the first place maybe they'd already be on the road to recovery? Alternate universes.. different situations.. who knows.

Anyway.. sooo Germany, you remember what happened last time there was mass inflation going on?

Kids were making pyramids out of it..

Lighting fires with it...

Making wallpaper out of it...

Generally making it rain...



Oh, and Greece, soo about those right wing guys you've got? With that one flag? And that Salute?

At least we have one very very willing combatant against this shit.. Hi there, Turkey! How's it going? I heard you missed the Trojan wars ya?

The US should wake the fuck up and realize that this is what happens when you have a welfare state. They are completely unsustainable and they eventually collapse. Welfare and entitlements are the only things keeping Europeans from killing each other and now they are about to disappear. Spain is next, and when that happens shit will really hit the fan. I would not be surprised at all if the EU becomes completely dismembered and falls into chaos, violence, and turmoil.

S.J.WSome serious shit happening in Greece. It's been in the news for a long time since the GFC. Unemployment is at 25%, ATM withdrawals are at 50 bucks a day. The EU is a failure and I'm curious if Greece will be kicked out or if the EU will dissolve all together.

In terms of economics Greece is very little in the EU, it does set a precedent for other countries wanting to leave Germany's big sharp talon's.

BravoWhiskey5280The US should wake the fuck up and realize that this is what happens when you have a welfare state. They are completely unsustainable and they eventually collapse. Welfare and entitlements are the only things keeping Europeans from killing each other and now they are about to disappear. Spain is next, and when that happens shit will really hit the fan. I would not be surprised at all if the EU becomes completely dismembered and falls into chaos, violence, and turmoil.

You clearly lack a solid grasp of economics and socialism if you think this what the majority of Europe is like and more so if you think the USA if headed down the same path given what is currently happening. You couldn't make a better example of the slippery slope fallacy if you tried.

BravoWhiskey5280The US should wake the fuck up and realize that this is what happens when you have a welfare state. They are completely unsustainable and they eventually collapse. Welfare and entitlements are the only things keeping Europeans from killing each other and now they are about to disappear. Spain is next, and when that happens shit will really hit the fan. I would not be surprised at all if the EU becomes completely dismembered and falls into chaos, violence, and turmoil.

Ummm nope. Vast and ridiculous generalization right there.

las.You didn't think about it because you'd need to be an emotional cretin to attempt to make a connection between Germany's unwillingness to credit Greece and the Third fucking Reich. It's a click-bait point with no substance, move along

Well that's fair and Greece definitely dug their own hole but Germany got to hit the reset button and start over after literally causing millions of deaths and trillions in damage to Europe. If they hadn't been forgiven they'd probably be worse off than Greece right now. For them to be the hardest-nosed opposer is kind of funny to me. Obviously Greece has to change but it's definitely ironic how quickly they forget once things are good for them.

Huck_NorrisWell that's fair and Greece definitely dug their own hole but Germany got to hit the reset button and start over after literally causing millions of deaths and trillions in damage to Europe. If they hadn't been forgiven they'd probably be worse off than Greece right now. For them to be the hardest-nosed opposer is kind of funny to me. Obviously Greece has to change but it's definitely ironic how quickly they forget once things are good for them.

In all reality, yeah, Germany is sorta hypocritical here given their history, but it's not like they're the only ones involved as creditors. They're a big one sure (if not the main one?) but this isn't ONLY Germany vs. Greece...

To be entirely devils advocate on the matter, Germany today is not even remotely the same country as that under Hitler or prior. It's like saying Russia today is at fault for what Stalin did or something..

Additionally, a huge part of why Germany was able to economically explode was because of western influences on it's economy in order to spur it on in light of it's communist brother next door - America, France, UK, Capitalist nations all wanted West Germany to be a winner, because of it's location. Japan had a similar case due to it's location so close to China. America heavily supported Korea, and Taiwan as well... Supporting capitalist nations that close to communist nations in effort to spread general influence was a massive ideological theatre of the cold war.

IE: the Heavier and more solid the dominoes are at the end, the less likely they are to fall into the others and cause a chain reaction. Yay Domino theory foreign policy...

Greece isn't particularly "important" to the main western powers as far as how much influence they have there. It's not like Turkey, who we have to tiptoe around by not talking about the Armenian genocide because we need them for access in the middle east and don't want to upset them. With Greece we just say "hey, thanks for the cool beaches we get to visit and, oh yeah good job with inventing Democracy, that was cool. Oh, and that one big fat wedding movie was kinda funny, thanks for that too! now stop bickering with Turkey over Cyprus & Crete and stuff, because we need Turkey to be our friends k thanx"

Huck_NorrisWell that's fair and Greece definitely dug their own hole but Germany got to hit the reset button and start over after literally causing millions of deaths and trillions in damage to Europe. If they hadn't been forgiven they'd probably be worse off than Greece right now. For them to be the hardest-nosed opposer is kind of funny to me. Obviously Greece has to change but it's definitely ironic how quickly they forget once things are good for them.

Nazi Germany and post-war Germany are two entirely separate regimes. I think it's a bit unfair to imply the latter should bear the burden of the former's actions, or at worst be responsible for them

BravoWhiskey5280The US should wake the fuck up and realize that this is what happens when you have a welfare state. They are completely unsustainable and they eventually collapse. Welfare and entitlements are the only things keeping Europeans from killing each other and now they are about to disappear. Spain is next, and when that happens shit will really hit the fan. I would not be surprised at all if the EU becomes completely dismembered and falls into chaos, violence, and turmoil.

Greece wasn't a welfare state. That's just a myth that has arose so the right wing can justify cutting welfare to the lower class. They just had high government spending and low tax rates.

DingoSeanWith Greece we just say "hey, thanks for the cool beaches we get to visit and, oh yeah good job with inventing Democracy, that was cool. Oh, and that one big fat wedding movie was kinda funny, thanks for that too! now stop bickering with Turkey over Cyprus & Crete and stuff, because we need Turkey to be our friends k thanx"

SEND MOAR FETA THX.

Good, hopefully that will make Greece leave the euro sooner. If Greece leaves the euro, I don't think many people will argue that the drachma would be a super cheap currency. Them having a cheap currency would make all of their products cheaper worldwide, stimulating increased exports, and it would make traveling there super cheap as well, increasing tourism, which together would help Greece's economy immensely.

CamembertWhere did you get this info? Who said this?

This sounds like typical American news twisting and overreacting.. Nobody said something like that on this side of the Atlantic..
Yes they will run out of medicine in a few months if nothing happens, but no country or organization said fuck you Greek people, you cant have medicine if you dont agree with our terms.. They will get humanitarian help if needed.

What im basically saying is that the imf is trying to impose laws on greece which is fucked,they tried to say that they dont want tohelp them we jyst want to put them so fsr in dbt that they pretty much owe us their lives.

S.J.WATM withdrawals are at 50 bucks a day.

50/day per person or per machine?

cool_nameGood, hopefully that will make Greece leave the euro sooner. If Greece leaves the euro, I don't think many people will argue that the drachma would be a super cheap currency. Them having a cheap currency would make all of their products cheaper worldwide, stimulating increased exports, and it would make traveling there super cheap as well, increasing tourism, which together would help Greece's economy immensely.

Yeah that would be so sick. The problem is that no country has ever left the EU before and so no one really knows what impact it will have on the rest of the EU, and the world. It could have a drastic impact.

Oh and yeah comparing Germany to nazi germany is stupid. Its a different place.

cool_nameGood, hopefully that will make Greece leave the euro sooner. If Greece leaves the euro, I don't think many people will argue that the drachma would be a super cheap currency. Them having a cheap currency would make all of their products cheaper worldwide, stimulating increased exports, and it would make traveling there super cheap as well, increasing tourism, which together would help Greece's economy immensely.

That's a rather simplistic and narrow view of Greece's 'macroeconomic' situation. There's no denying that the Drachma would be hugely devalued and Greece itself would be operating under huge inflation. Great for tourism? Potentially, but tourism only accounts for 16% of Greece's GDP. Exports and the remaing 84% of economic activity? No. It'll kill whatever is left of Greece's economy.

Greece already operates a negative trade balance. And with the Drachma returned, there will literally be no liquidity within the Greek economy. Any funding/revenue/cash flow for the Secondary/Agriculture sector will dry up, which still only equates to less than 20% of Greece's GDP. Greece won't have anything to export because they will have no domestic production. The Drachma will be in no way stimulating for the Greek economy.

greek girls are cute af might have to make a trip over there
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/775164/Yes-or-No--Greece-Again-on-the-Brink--Greek-Debt-Crisis--Dispatch-1-

FROGGINBULLFISH50/day per person or per machine?

Interning at an engineering company. It'd residential structural engineering

the EU made the mistake of letting in a country that they knew wouldn't be able to fund their debts

Greece made the mistake of signing onto a currency that propped up costs in what is still an eastern European country

everyone is at fault, and everyone is paying the price

--ski--That's a rather simplistic and narrow view of Greece's 'macroeconomic' situation. There's no denying that the Drachma would be hugely devalued and Greece itself would be operating under huge inflation. Great for tourism? Potentially, but tourism only accounts for 16% of Greece's GDP. Exports and the remaing 84% of economic activity? No. It'll kill whatever is left of Greece's economy.

Greece already operates a negative trade balance. And with the Drachma returned, there will literally be no liquidity within the Greek economy. Any funding/revenue/cash flow for the Secondary/Agriculture sector will dry up, which still only equates to less than 20% of Greece's GDP. Greece won't have anything to export because they will have no domestic production. The Drachma will be in no way stimulating for the Greek economy.

Using the current ratios of what there gdp is made up from and what their trade ratio is really doesn't make much sense. Going back to the drachma would change all of that, as I said by increasing trade and tourism. The fact that they are currently operating under a trade deficit just increases the need for them to increase exports, which a cheaper currency both logically and in practice has been shown to do.

Huck_NorrisWell that's fair and Greece definitely dug their own hole but Germany got to hit the reset button and start over after literally causing millions of deaths and trillions in damage to Europe. If they hadn't been forgiven they'd probably be worse off than Greece right now. For them to be the hardest-nosed opposer is kind of funny to me. Obviously Greece has to change but it's definitely ironic how quickly they forget once things are good for them.

I partially agree, but Germany has already lost a ton of money to Greece and their reckless use of loans. Germany i consider to have the strongest market right now in the EU and they gained their wealth through fiscal responsibility. Greece has not shown an ounce of it, so why should Germany keep giving them money?

its hard to know wether or not that was a good or bad thing.

cool_nameUsing the current ratios of what there gdp is made up from and what their trade ratio is really doesn't make much sense. Going back to the drachma would change all of that, as I said by increasing trade and tourism. The fact that they are currently operating under a trade deficit just increases the need for them to increase exports, which a cheaper currency both logically and in practice has been shown to do.

It makes perfect sense. It shows that they're a services based economy. The Drachma would not change that. You keep talking about increasing exports. Again, they won't have anything to export: they're primary sector is already small and with a lack of liquidity in the economy businesses will struggle to remain solvent. Exports continue to decrease. The Greece economy is already import dependent and with the domestic production diminishing they'll be more and more reliant on imports.

--ski--It makes perfect sense. It shows that they're a services based economy. The Drachma would not change that. You keep talking about increasing exports. Again, they won't have anything to export: they're primary sector is already small and with a lack of liquidity in the economy businesses will struggle to remain solvent. Exports continue to decrease. The Greece economy is already import dependent and with the domestic production diminishing they'll be more and more reliant on imports.

The reason they currently don't export much is that they can't sell their goods at a compitive price in the global market due to the value of euro.

I really don't see why having currently a small sector of there economy being related to exports means they will export less than they already do and not increase the amount of their exports when their products become far cheaper world wide. They may not overnight increase there global exports ten fold, but the increased demand for their products due to their cheaper price will cause the expansion of that sector.

For people who want the basics on this grease cook their book to get into the EU.

It is a cultural norm to horrificly lie on your income tax, and the government never cracked down on it, and they were giving people huge pension plans and early retirement. Unemployment is about 25% there.

i will suck all ur dicks if anyone on this site knows what the fuck austerity measures are.

redherringi will suck all ur dicks if anyone on this site knows what the fuck austerity measures are.

Austerity is an economic policy that aims to get a country out of debt. Usually by higher taxes and lower government spending. Or any mixture of the two.

Not all as it seems.
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/775478/The-Greek-Crisis---What-You--39-re-Not-Being-Told

^Video has some pretty uninformed statements in it.

1. The money given to the private banks was given to them so they would not face a liquidity crises due to debt maturity. If you think that is wrong then you are pretty uninformed on how the banking system works.

2. The Troika cannot set a precedent that allows for reneging on debt because it has the possibility of creating a domino effect in countries like Spain, France, and Ireland. You allow that to happen you will see another global financial crises.

3. China's stock market issues =/= global crisis. It is simple a correction in the market, it is still up 80% since last year. Read here for more http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/07/chinas-stockmarket-crash

4. Blaming this on the system not the complete story. The Greek people are to blame as well for poor spending habits and taking on debt.

Huck_NorrisI just think it's hilarious that Germany- whose debt was completely forgiven after WWII is the most staunch detractor from working towards a deal. Furthermore when this DIDN'T happen after WWI... It's what led to WWII!

I mean come on Germany. Stop acting like you weren't bailed out AND forgiven for massive crimes against humanity the last time you fucked up royally- at least the Greeks didn't kill 6 million people. What a bunch of deutsch bags haha

Huck_NorrisWell that's fair and Greece definitely dug their own hole but Germany got to hit the reset button and start over after literally causing millions of deaths and trillions in damage to Europe. If they hadn't been forgiven they'd probably be worse off than Greece right now. For them to be the hardest-nosed opposer is kind of funny to me. Obviously Greece has to change but it's definitely ironic how quickly they forget once things are good for them.

DingoSeanIn all reality, yeah, Germany is sorta hypocritical here given their history, but it's not like they're the only ones involved as creditors. They're a big one sure (if not the main one?) but this isn't ONLY Germany vs. Greece...

Germany took on some pretty severe austerity measures in exchange for that debt forgiveness. For starters Germans were working well past the retirement ages of Brits and Greeks for a long time. They also assisted in hunting down Nazis.

The EU / IMF: "we will renegotiate and potentially forgive the debt if you take on a bit more work, and austerity."
Greeks: "Fuck you we don't want to work"
Tsiparas: "Fuck you, they shouldn't have to work"

Germany: "Fine, fuck you too"

Obviously that is a gross oversimplification, but Greece has been offered multiple opportunities to not be in the position they are in now.

Fuck, Tsiparas has been trying to bluff his way into a better deal since he was elected, seemingly ignoring the fact that his cards were face up on the table.
He right fucked himself politically on this one too. Encouraged everyone to vote no on it, hoping the EU would not want to risk a Grexit. Now he is fucked since he has to essentially ignore the popular vote he encouraged.