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Thoughts on Assisted Suicide

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TOAST.
Posts: 7749 - Karma: 39,656
Saw the story about Brittany Maynard on the news tonight, and it got me thinking about assisted suicide, which I didn't think any states allowed.

Story:http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/08/terminally-ill-brittany-maynard-29-has-scheduled-her-death-for-nov-1/

What are your thoughts on assisted suicide? Do you think it acceptable for terminally ill people?
If you do think it is acceptable in some cases, where do you draw the line(ex. depression)?
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11 years ago
67 31
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kemosabe
Posts: 449 - Karma: 1,309
I think this is the most fucked up thing ive heard all day. Unless it is completely legal like if they are suffering then stopping their misery is acceptable but there are better ways then suicide like stop requesting medical attention, but any other reason like mental reasons people should not assist. If someone asked for assistance to kill themselves then they should turn them a psychological help. why would you even ask that if it was 'ok'?
11 years ago
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
Definitely think it should be allowed for terminally ill patients. Some people don't want to live through the pain...I mean, should people not be able to put down their dogs when they are old and sick? Suffering when you are gonna die soon anyways seems pointless to me.
11 years ago
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,634
thenosefaceI think this is the most fucked up thing ive heard all day. Unless it is completely legal like if they are suffering then stopping their misery is acceptable but there are better ways then suicide like stop requesting medical attention, but any other reason like mental reasons people should not assist. If someone asked for assistance to kill themselves then they should turn them a psychological help. why would you even ask that if it was 'ok'?


Did you click the article?




I think that its is their decision and they should be able to make it (talking about the terminally ill). Should you help someone who just wants to kill themselves do that, no. But if they have a terminal illness and choose not to go through treatment I think I'm okay with that. I hope I never have to make that decision but if they either don't think they will survive or the side effects and cost of survival of the treatment will not be worth it why shouldn't they have the choice.

To me, these people don't want to just survive, they want to live. And they want to live for as long as they possibly can. When they can't live anymore and they are now fighting to survive with pain and suffering they should be able to end it if that's how they choose.

It is a terrible thing to even have to think of or try to put yourself in their position. I can't imagine what that must be like to be told you have 6 months to live and no treatment will save you.



The story reminds me of an article I read about people in the medical profession; doctors, nurses, surgeons, the kind of people who see cancer patients day in and day out. When they are diagnosed with a terminal disease, often they choose not to undergo treatment because they've seen the pain and suffering it takes to try and beat the cancer.

Probably not the specific article I'm referring to, but good reads on the same subject.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2643751/Most-doctors-terminally-ill-AVOID-aggressive-treatments-chemotherapy-despite-recommending-patients.html

http://www.rd.com/health/healthcare/how-doctors-choose-to-die/

http://healthmedicinet.com/news/most-doctors-would-reject-aggressive-treatment-if-terminally-ill-study-finds/

"I will accept further treatment only if it enhances the quality, not the quantity, of the days I have left." - From the first link.
11 years ago
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TOAST.
Posts: 7749 - Karma: 39,656
thenosefaceI think this is the most fucked up thing ive heard all day. Unless it is completely legal like if they are suffering then stopping their misery is acceptable but there are better ways then suicide like stop requesting medical attention, but any other reason like mental reasons people should not assist. If someone asked for assistance to kill themselves then they should turn them a psychological help. why would you even ask that if it was 'ok'?


I don't know much about mental illnesses, but I believe some people make the argument that they are in pain as well. Thats why I threw that in. I do not believe that it is a valid reason, just putting stuff out there.
11 years ago
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louie.mirags
Posts: 6015 - Karma: 5,027
I'm not sure the exact story but Doug Stanhope (comedian) had a similar situation when his mom committed suicide when she was ill. Him and his brother were there to support when it happened. He shared the same article on Facebook.

If you're terminally ill I don't see a problem with it. Nobody should be able to tell you what you can or can't do with your own body if you're not hurting anybody else.
11 years ago
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edai
Posts: 4995 - Karma: 4,705
louie.miragsIf you're terminally ill I don't see a problem with it. Nobody should be able to tell you what you can or can't do with your own body if you're not hurting anybody else.


Yea this...it's your body you get to choose.
11 years ago
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Mr.noodle
Posts: 1361 - Karma: 4,655
I think it's getter than finding them covered in blood with a gun in their hands but still kinda screwed up
11 years ago
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toastyteenagers
Posts: 1834 - Karma: 6,793
this is terribly depressing and sad.

i say, that if that person has truely nothing to live for, and is terminally ill. If they chose so they can die.
11 years ago
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
I think it should be legal for the terminally ill. My grandma has late stage dementia and it's terrible watching her suffer. She's at the point where she can't even talk and can barely move. She's stuck in bed in a constant state of confusion, bleating in pain, being force fed.
11 years ago
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Iliveinutah
Posts: 1250 - Karma: 5,147
i think for terminally ill people they should have the right to refuse treatment, but not to end there own life. i don't feel like that should be something we choose... i fell like it is more natural to let whats going to happen, happen.
11 years ago
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louie.mirags
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snowballsdeepi fell like it is more natural to let whats going to happen, happen.


Only when it comes to assisted suicide? We take medications to get over sickness and we replace limbs if we lose them. We give free food to the poor and restock animals in areas where they once roamed. None of that is natural without human intervention... So we don't let happen what's going to happen. Why not let somebody end their suffering, what's it to you?
11 years ago
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Iliveinutah
Posts: 1250 - Karma: 5,147
louie.miragsOnly when it comes to assisted suicide? We take medications to get over sickness and we replace limbs if we lose them. We give free food to the poor and restock animals in areas where they once roamed. None of that is natural without human intervention... So we don't let happen what's going to happen. Why not let somebody end their suffering, what's it to you?[/

well simply put, society has a moral duty to protect and to preserve all life(as given by the examples you just presented). To allow people to assist others in destroying their lives violates a fundamental duty we have to respect human life. A society committed to preserving and protecting life should not commission people to destroy it.
11 years ago
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yelsel
Posts: 12967 - Karma: 3,451
snowballsdeepi think for terminally ill people they should have the right to refuse treatment, but not to end there own life. i don't feel like that should be something we choose... i fell like it is more natural to let whats going to happen, happen.


The issue with this woman is that she's already been told she's going to die and how she's going to die.....in a shit ton of pain and in a condition that no person should ever have to go through. She's already having a ton of seizures that have caused her immense pain among other issues. I think what she's doing is amazing and if I were in her shoes, I would do the same damn thing. Christ, my father and I have talked about situations like this before and we've both always said that once we get to the point where you cant wipe your own ass, we don't want to live. At least she's going out with some dignity.
11 years ago
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Huck_Norris
Posts: 11487 - Karma: 18,627
I think people need to shut the fuck up about what other people decide to do with their lives. .


Honestly, who gives a shit what some random person thinks about your personal life and death situation? Just the fact the some think they should be able to decide for others what is and isn't an option is sad. It's not your life, stop acting like it's your call to make.
11 years ago
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Iraq_Lobster
Posts: 1866 - Karma: 4,903
If someone wants to die, let em die. That makes sense to me at least....
11 years ago
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iH8pow
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 8,484
Fuck yeah it should be acceptable for bad terminally ill cases. Not like these people are just going out on a whim one day and killing themselves. Lots of thought and consideration goes into this stuff.

I liked the dog analogy, veterinarians don't get off putting animals down but they will recommend it if the animal is pretty miserable and will only get worse. Why would we expect humans to deal with it?
11 years ago
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,258
B.AussieI think it should be legal for the terminally ill. My grandma has late stage dementia and it's terrible watching her suffer. She's at the point where she can't even talk and can barely move. She's stuck in bed in a constant state of confusion, bleating in pain, being force fed.


I have been there. It is terrible. I wish the best for you and your grandma.

My grandma was let suffer the same way for 7 years, and when she was finally to weak, the only way they could let her go is to starve her to death. Yes, they just stop giving you fluids and food, the most humane of all options......
11 years ago
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987321654hgfd
Posts: 5133 - Karma: 5,449
I think it should be allowed for anyone. Terminally ill is a no brainer. I can see why people would be against it for any other reason, but if someone really wants to go they should be allowed that choice.
11 years ago
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iH8pow
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 8,484
AT-ATI have been there. It is terrible. I wish the best for you and your grandma.

My grandma was let suffer the same way for 7 years, and when she was finally to weak, the only way they could let her go is to starve her to death. Yes, they just stop giving you fluids and food, the most humane of all options......


My grandma went the same way for years with alzheimers. I think she just stopped eating, but maybe that's what my family told me when instead they just stopped feeding her? Doubtful, but idk.

Problem is if it hasn't been talked about before, how do you just put down somebody who can't make their own decisions? After seeing my grandma go through that, my mom has made it well known that she wants to be put down if she gets in that state, but they don't live in Oregon so idk..
11 years ago
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yelsel
Posts: 12967 - Karma: 3,451
CoreyTrevorMy grandma went the same way for years with alzheimers. I think she just stopped eating, but maybe that's what my family told me when instead they just stopped feeding her? Doubtful, but idk.

Problem is if it hasn't been talked about before, how do you just put down somebody who can't make their own decisions? After seeing my grandma go through that, my mom has made it well known that she wants to be put down if she gets in that state, but they don't live in Oregon so idk..


that's why it's important to get some estate planning done for those "just in case" moments.

a living will pretty much covers that and states that you dont want to be in a vegetative state and if something should happen to render you that way, they'll pull the plug so to speak.
11 years ago
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,258
In New York a living will holds no legal standing. If you make a living will saying you do not want to be resuscitated or you don't want to be on permanent life support, whoever is in the next legal standing (spouse, parent, child) can overrule you if the situation arises.

It's really messed up, if you ask me.
11 years ago
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Laurent.
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 25,311
snowballsdeepwell simply put, society has a moral duty to protect and to preserve all life(as given by the examples you just presented). To allow people to assist others in destroying their lives violates a fundamental duty we have to respect human life. A society committed to preserving and protecting life should not commission people to destroy it.


Destroy is a wrong word here and if you truly respect human life you would understand that these decisions are not taken on a whim, people in my country - where euthanasia is legal - who undergo the procedure usually face unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement, then what's the point of an elongation of what's essentially torture? Is that not morally wrong?
11 years ago
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,145
Huck_NorrisI think people need to shut the fuck up about what other people decide to do with their lives. .


Honestly, who gives a shit what some random person thinks about your personal life and death situation? Just the fact the some think they should be able to decide for others what is and isn't an option is sad. It's not your life, stop acting like it's your call to make.

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel about this.
11 years ago
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24730 - Karma: 30,008
The only issues I could see with it would be manipulating someone into agreeing to be killed or something - IE: some gold digging wife manipulates some old rich dude into suicide so she can cash it in sooner... so really, yeah it should be for terminally ill only...



Regardless. I lived in Oregon. It was, as NS likes to say, "Chyll"

If you're old, dying, in pain, want to fucking end it already, and you're not being manipulated down this path, then fuck yeah you should be able to have the plug pulled.


Darth Vader death scene. Nuff said.
11 years ago
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seward
Posts: 5233 - Karma: 2,174
such a weird situation.
im not against it, i just dont think it has been perfected.

i think if you are ill to the point where you have been told how long you have left, and that time will be filled with pain and suffering, that you not only should be able to have an assisted suicide, but you have a right to.
however im sure there has been many situations where doctors tell people they are going to die and they end up pulling through.

i agree that doctors should be making that decision an option for their patients, but not necessarily writing the prescriptions for it.

at the end of the day it should be the patients and families decision.
and if that is what they conclude, then who is anybody to stop them?
11 years ago
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,510
I never understood why the mentality of civilization that you should stay alive under all circumstances for as long as possible. Too many people that just sit around using stuff and throwing trash away, we are getting a little too populated anyway.
11 years ago
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yelsel
Posts: 12967 - Karma: 3,451
AT-ATIn New York a living will holds no legal standing. If you make a living will saying you do not want to be resuscitated or you don't want to be on permanent life support, whoever is in the next legal standing (spouse, parent, child) can overrule you if the situation arises.

It's really messed up, if you ask me.


Not sure where you got your information but it does. It's a legally binding document.
11 years ago
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,258
yelselNot sure where you got your information but it does. It's a legally binding document.


It can be overruled though. I know numerous nurses who have had it happen to their patients numerous times.
11 years ago
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broto
Posts: 9040 - Karma: 25,673
Huck_NorrisI think people need to shut the fuck up about what other people decide to do with their lives. .


Honestly, who gives a shit what some random person thinks about your personal life and death situation? Just the fact the some think they should be able to decide for others what is and isn't an option is sad. It's not your life, stop acting like it's your call to make.


I agree, but the argument for outlawing assisted suicide is basically that the ripples affect much more than just the person dying. Chances are they have dozens of loved ones who will mourn over that loss.

I'm just playing devils advocate though. It would be difficult to set up a system, but I think assisted suicide for the terminally ill should be allowed
11 years ago
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louie.mirags
Posts: 6015 - Karma: 5,027
brotoI agree, but the argument for outlawing assisted suicide is basically that the ripples affect much more than just the person dying. Chances are they have dozens of loved ones who will mourn over that loss


ehhh I disagree. If a loved one wants to die instead of pain that would just be selfish to want them to stay alive. I think it has more to do with people saying why should the doctor be able to play God.
11 years ago
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yelsel
Posts: 12967 - Karma: 3,451
louie.miragsehhh I disagree. If a loved one wants to die instead of pain that would just be selfish to want them to stay alive. I think it has more to do with people saying why should the doctor be able to play God.


I totally agree with you on this.
11 years ago
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broto
Posts: 9040 - Karma: 25,673
louie.miragsehhh I disagree. If a loved one wants to die instead of pain that would just be selfish to want them to stay alive. I think it has more to do with people saying why should the doctor be able to play God.


I agree, but that doesn't stop parents from wanting to keep their kids alive or a person from keeping their girlfriend with them. People are selfish.
11 years ago
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Astomp
Posts: 10090 - Karma: 344
B.AussieI think it should be legal for the terminally ill. My grandma has late stage dementia and it's terrible watching her suffer. She's at the point where she can't even talk and can barely move. She's stuck in bed in a constant state of confusion, bleating in pain, being force fed.


was there a point where you believe she would be able to make a clear concise decision and say she wants a doctor assisted suicide? I think situations like that could be a dangerous one. d

Im all for it.
11 years ago
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5852 - Karma: 4,531
Astompwas there a point where you believe she would be able to make a clear concise decision and say she wants a doctor assisted suicide? I think situations like that could be a dangerous one. d

Im all for it.

Yeah, at the start of the disease they are perfectly sane, just forgetful. It's once they lose the ability to talk and understand/ know where they are that they would lose this ability. But it's rare for it to lay undiagnosed for that long. Most know in the semi-early stages that they have dementia, just not whether it will progress to Alzheimers or how long this will take, so they would be able to make the decision early.
11 years ago
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Chubbs.
Posts: 1018 - Karma: 2,647
I sit here extremely stoned and have drawn a total blank on really what is right in this sense... I think of the pain some people go through on a daily bases in some cases but then i think of the hope and slight chance of a miracle they could have missed because they decided to pull the plug.. The hope should be living another day and seeing all the small things that keep you going because they must exist, and wait your turn for that miracle. No one should allow to stop that. It is simply inhumane.

You live till the last breath and that last breath should be fought for.

/bakedrant
11 years ago
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270on420out
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I mean if I was terminally-ill or suffered permanent injury, I'd pretty much consider myself dead and any time afterwards would just be prolonged suffering.
11 years ago
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Mingg
Posts: 14047 - Karma: 50,909
Why is it so looked down upon when someone tries to commit suicide by themselves but so many people support assisted suicide? Because one person has a "more valid" reason for wanting to die? Fuck that. When my best friend attempted suicide she was looked at as crazy and put into a psych ward which is essentially equivalent to fucking prison. But assisted suicide is okay? I don't see any difference in either. Suicide is suicide, whether you do it by yourself or with the help of a physician.

However, I do believe everyone should have control over their own life. I personally do not think assisted suicide is a great thing but that is just for myself. I don't think anyone should ever feel like there's no way out other than death. However, some people feel that way and want to move on. If that's their wish then, so be it. Before coming to that kind of solution though, I think there should be a shit ton of help available and a lot of thought put into this kind of a decision. Death is the only really permanent thing in life.
11 years ago
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Funkadelic
Posts: 1967 - Karma: 391
Chubbs.I sit here extremely stoned and have drawn a total blank on really what is right in this sense... I think of the pain some people go through on a daily bases in some cases but then i think of the hope and slight chance of a miracle they could have missed because they decided to pull the plug.. The hope should be living another day and seeing all the small things that keep you going because they must exist, and wait your turn for that miracle. No one should allow to stop that. It is simply inhumane.

You live till the last breath and that last breath should be fought for.

/bakedrant



I think it depends how old you are. If when I'm 40 I'm diagnosed with a terminal illness I'll fight it to the last breath in case a miracle happens and I survive. If I'm 85 then I'd say I had a good life and fighting a disease for the off chance I get to live another 5 years watching the price is right isn't worth it.
11 years ago
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JGWI
Posts: 2842 - Karma: 7,812
MinggWhy is it so looked down upon when someone tries to commit suicide by themselves but so many people support assisted suicide? Because one person has a "more valid" reason for wanting to die? Fuck that. When my best friend attempted suicide she was looked at as crazy and put into a psych ward which is essentially equivalent to fucking prison. But assisted suicide is okay? I don't see any difference in either. Suicide is suicide, whether you do it by yourself or with the help of a physician.

However, I do believe everyone should have control over their own life. I personally do not think assisted suicide is a great thing but that is just for myself. I don't think anyone should ever feel like there's no way out other than death. However, some people feel that way and want to move on. If that's their wish then, so be it. Before coming to that kind of solution though, I think there should be a shit ton of help available and a lot of thought put into this kind of a decision. Death is the only really permanent thing in life.


The mental health system in our country sucks, plain and simple. And I don't think anything will change until people start having a different view on mental illness. While this can be often misunderstood thanks to religion, our conscious awareness is not some mystical thing that floats from the heavens but is rather the product of our neuro function. Our brain just like our heart or kidneys is an organ made up of cells. And just like any other organ, things can go wrong which can affect our actions and thought process. I feel the major problem that is causing suicide to be at such a high rate is the lack of empathy. If someone was given the choice to either save a 15 year old kid who has heart failure or a 15 year old kid on the verge of suicide I can guarantee that 85-90% would choose the kid with the heart problem. And why? Because people have the wrong mindset when it comes to mental illness.
When it comes to assisted suicide I feel it is only acceptable if the patient is in agony with days or weeks to live. There are so many things that can be done to our health care system in order to prevent people from even wanting to kill themselves. These include. More funding to mental health programs (especially adolescence). This would lead to far more beds and less of a waiting period for people to get into a program. Also more research needs to be done in both a physiological and medical standpoint in order to better detect patterns that May untimely lead to suicide or self-harm. And finally as I mentioned above, more empathy and understanding needs to come from the public on the subject.
11 years ago
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caucasian_chad
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 3,625
Huck_NorrisI think people need to shut the fuck up about what other people decide to do with their lives. .


Honestly, who gives a shit what some random person thinks about your personal life and death situation? Just the fact the some think they should be able to decide for others what is and isn't an option is sad. It's not your life, stop acting like it's your call to make.


I agree with this.

MinggWhy is it so looked down upon when someone tries to commit suicide by themselves but so many people support assisted suicide? Because one person has a "more valid" reason for wanting to die? Fuck that. When my best friend attempted suicide she was looked at as crazy and put into a psych ward which is essentially equivalent to fucking prison. But assisted suicide is okay? I don't see any difference in either. Suicide is suicide, whether you do it by yourself or with the help of a physician.


Well, unless your friend was also terminally ill, yeah, it is completely different. There's a huge difference between wanting to end your life because you will suffer and die slowly if you don't and there's no way to stop it, and wanting to end your life because you believe you have nothing to live for because of depression or mental illness. The first is an accurate perception of reality, the second isn't.
11 years ago
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Phil-X-
Posts: 7205 - Karma: 14,402
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the question, its asking about assisted suicide.


It should be legal for the terminally ill who can't do it themselves. Otherwise, you should be able to do it yourself if you want to, fuckin dumb but w.e., good riddance i guess
11 years ago
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RimJobber
Posts: 3313 - Karma: 10,058
Who's to determine what is and isn't terminally ill. Like where do you draw the line? Any cancer, 20% survival, 50% ?
Also along the same lines, what about mentally ill? Couldn't it be argued that they aren't thinking in good judgement because of the illness? Or how do you decide that a 13 year old with cancer with a 1% survival rate has more to live for than an 80 dementia patient or a 20 year old with severe depression that has decided that they're ready to go?

Not really trying to start shit or piss anyone off, just to get people thinking. I think that suicide is definitely one of the biggest taboos in modern society and that it is completely frowned upon, so how does assisted suicide change that at all? You would be content with a terminally ill patient opting out through euthanasia, but why is it that your feelings change if you heard that the same person had jumped off a building or shot themselves? Shit, if I was terminally ill I would have a tough choice, do I try to ride it out until the end and possibly suffer? Do I opt out, and if I do, when do i feel is the best time and how am I going to do it? Do I want to be injected and go out tripping balls with my family around me, do I go out in a blaze of glory and do one thing that I've always wanted to and ski BASE jump off a cliff and enjoy the adrenaline ride to the bottom as I don't deploy my chute?

I dunno. Its late and I love thinking about all the different shit that comes along with controversial stuff.
I don't think I've told anyone this, but I totally use to contemplate suicide almost daily. Which way would be best, how I would prepare everything before I left, everything. The thing that stopped me from doing anything was actually me being a pussy. I never went through with anything because I knew the impact that it would have on everyone, especially my family. I thought about how fucked up it would be if I did it in a way that someone had to see it after. It was mostly the little shit. I was living in the dorms and I thought about how much it would pain my parents to have to go in and move everything out of my room, how they would have to clean my room and go through all my belongings and sort through all the old memories they brought. How they would go on my computer and see random posts like this and wonder why they didn't see any signs and what they could have done to prevent it. The worst one was imagining my dad cry. He's a complete asshole to me, but I imagined that it would literally eat him away knowing that he did nothing about it and it killed me knowing that out of all the times I've fucked up and all the opportunities I've wasted that I would still end up disappointing him the most from that.

Sorry for the wall of text, it was just kinda nice being able to get everything out .
11 years ago
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,869
My parents both decided when I was born that if anything were to happen to me like being terminally ill or in a coma and on life support they would pull the plug. But they want me to do the same for them because they wouldn't want me or anyone else to live like that.
11 years ago
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,258
.Rybak.My parents both decided when I was born that if anything were to happen to me like being terminally ill or in a coma and on life support they would pull the plug. But they want me to do the same for them because they wouldn't want me or anyone else to live like that.


Death is not the worse thing in life. Everyone has to die at some point, but not everyone has to suffer.
11 years ago
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,869
AT-ATDeath is not the worse thing in life. Everyone has to die at some point, but not everyone has to suffer.


Exactly.
11 years ago
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
snowballsdeepi fell like it is more natural to let whats going to happen, happen.


I'm guessing you're against patients being put on life support?
11 years ago
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
louie.miragsI think it has more to do with people saying why should the doctor be able to play God.


Which is hilarious because doctors keep people alive all the time who would otherwise die without modern medicine, and almost nobody complains about them "playing God" then.
11 years ago
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Phil-X-
Posts: 7205 - Karma: 14,402
.Rybak.My parents both decided when I was born that if anything were to happen to me like being terminally ill or in a coma and on life support they would pull the plug. But they want me to do the same for them because they wouldn't want me or anyone else to live like that.


lol dey eager as fuk 2 terminate u....... ayy lmao
11 years ago
1 0
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.Rybak.
Posts: 9017 - Karma: 9,869
Phil-X-lol dey eager as fuk 2 terminate u....... ayy lmao


11 years ago
1 0
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Da_Buddha
Posts: 802 - Karma: 1,182
11 years ago
0 0
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