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Building A park without man made snow.

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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
So i have some decent amount with park building, but now I have two whole runs that i am in charge with. The only issue is that I shall not have access to snow guns for a few years until this hill gets going. So I would like to ask newschoolers what I should do to make the best park possible.

Btw snowfall is not a big problem.
Apr 28 2014 5:23PM
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jellomellow
Posts: 961 - Karma: 3,562
Have a dick shaped rail covered in goat semen.
Apr 28 2014 5:32PM
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~~~~~~~~
Posts: 2345 - Karma: 2,104
develop a solid marketing strategy.
Apr 28 2014 6:27PM
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gohamsam
Posts: 326 - Karma: 2,930
just make the best of what u got
Apr 28 2014 6:30PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,469
What kind of moron would let some kid run a park when he has no idea what he's doing?
Apr 28 2014 6:30PM
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Lou.
Posts: 1787 - Karma: 3,876
.Hugo.What kind of moron would let some kid run a park when he has no idea what he's doing?


Quoting for emphasis
Apr 28 2014 6:45PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7268 - Karma: 33,300
Make piles with what you have?
Apr 28 2014 6:52PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
roddy116So i have some decent amount with park building, but now I have two whole runs that i am in charge with. The only issue is that I shall not have access to snow guns for a few years until this hill gets going. So I would like to ask newschoolers what I should do to make the best park possible.

Btw snowfall is not a big problem.



Yes it's possible. Where are you at BTW?

Be prepared for some headache. You can pull it off but your park will be insanely affected by weather. Pray for snow and a shit ton of it.

Not sure where you're at but that makes a big difference.

Keep the snow a little thicker where you're setting your rails if possible. If needed use rails with feet that are stable without being sunk in deep. If the weather sucks and you absolutely can'[t find snow in the trail when you're building the takeoffs farm some from the woods. You shouldn't need to but I'm saying worst case scenario. Like early season if the snowfalls hasn't been that great and you can't find shit.


Don't expect to have much for a jump. Jumps take A LOT of snow. Your best best for a jump is to use the trail. If your mountain has a nice flat to downhill headwall at a decent pitch you could put a step down in on it without a stupid amount of snow. Only build your takeoff as big as you have snow for and your landing can support in terms of pitch. If you have the right spot you could still get a pretty decent size jump out. If not you can build a little mini as tall and long as your snow can support. If you don't have much maybe it'll only be a 12 footer that you can 3 kind of thing.

I would focus on rails though. People love rails and that's going to be the only thing you can do for the most part.


If you get creative you can pull it off. Unfortunately if the R word comes through town or the sun comes out in the spring, natural snow goes fast. If there are any parallel trails that you could run a line through the woods and pump out some snow for your base/ a little booter that would be clutch.


Good luck.
Apr 28 2014 7:09PM
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Bromium
Posts: 181 - Karma: 2,145
Lou.Quoting for emphasis


quoting for *more* emphasis
Apr 28 2014 7:19PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
The hill is at Montana on the same weather pattern of Bridger bowls so I know that snow will not be too much trouble.

As of now the base of the hill is 70 inches on both of the park runs. I was really hoping to make them in tiers but I don't think that will happen this year.
Apr 28 2014 7:21PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
roddy116The hill is at Montana on the same weather pattern of Bridger bowls so I know that snow will not be too much trouble.

As of now the base of the hill is 70 inches on both of the park runs. I was really hoping to make them in tiers but I don't think that will happen this year.


Word if snow isn't a problem build as normal basically. Push snow from all over to build your booters.

Go nuts
Apr 28 2014 7:23PM
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JahLiam
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 7,823
Just use an idea from your plethora of shredsauce courses
Apr 28 2014 10:45PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
I guess I don't really understand the question...man made snow sucks for building honestly (unless it's perfect), the only benefit to it is you can point the guns where you want the piles. Is it that you can't drive a cat....cause that's a bigger problem than man made snow. If you can drive, just push snow from different places and make piles then shape them however you want, once you have piles add rails/kickers to your liking. If you can't drive a cat, find a good (or even just decent) cat driver that's willing to help, get in the thing with him and explain where you want things to go and how you want them to look, he'll be able to move snow where ever you want....then add rails (if the driver is still willing to help, use the cat as much as you can/your comfortable with for digging/burying/shaping, then touch up and make pretty with a rake). To get a cat driver on board, a 6-pack never hurt (just make sure they don't drink it first...things don't come out exactly as planned, haha).
Apr 28 2014 10:58PM
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tmeade007
Posts: 7 - Karma: 8
Shape the dirt underneath for your jumps
Apr 28 2014 11:08PM
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Blake.P
Posts: 9894 - Karma: 3,585
its not that hard. i grew up riding stevens and snoqualmie, which have awesome parks and dont make snow. just push it strategically and youre golden. it shouldnt be that hard in montana
Apr 28 2014 11:16PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7268 - Karma: 33,300
tmeade007Shape the dirt underneath for your jumps


I would not do this especially since it sounds like it is the first year for a park. If you put the mounds at the wrongs spots there is no changing it. Maybe after you figure out the perfect spot for jumps after a few seasons go for it, but by then hopefully you have snowmaking.
Apr 28 2014 11:46PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
TOAST.I would not do this especially since it sounds like it is the first year for a park. If you put the mounds at the wrongs spots there is no changing it. Maybe after you figure out the perfect spot for jumps after a few seasons go for it, but by then hopefully you have snowmaking.


^ What he said

Also OP mentioned that he had plenty of natural snow to work with.
Apr 28 2014 11:48PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
Just pray really hard.
Apr 28 2014 11:59PM
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TACO-DOG.exe
Posts: 11986 - Karma: 12,239
get creative with your rail set ups but also don't forget about your basic park features too. close outs and big cannon rails with stair landings are fun but most people don't want to learn front swaps on stuff like that. shit like down rails, flat rails, double kinks, regular boxes etc.. are a must.
Apr 29 2014 12:46AM
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chacha33
Posts: 959 - Karma: 4,163
Nine knights or bust
Apr 29 2014 9:32AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
become friends with a good cat driver, try to gather as much snow as possible and work with the terrain as much as possible

be prepared to work hard on your park and cat drivers will (hopefully) be stoked to help you out :)
Apr 29 2014 9:43AM
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1337
Posts: 31038 - Karma: 29,003
Who the hell would put you in control/let you build with a cat is the more important question. Aren't you a freshman in college?
Apr 29 2014 10:11AM
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Bagina
Posts: 849 - Karma: 2,888
Walter.1337Who the hell would put you in control/let you build with a cat is the more important question. Aren't you a freshman in college?


He's made quite a few shredsauce maps so he knows what he's doing.
Apr 29 2014 10:16AM
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Jibberino
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 1,333
What? I'm assuming you haven't done much building, as I can assure you that man made snow is far superior for building.

BWalmerI guess I don't really understand the question...man made snow sucks for building honestly (unless it's perfect), the only benefit to it is you can point the guns where you want the piles. Is it that you can't drive a cat....cause that's a bigger problem than man made snow. If you can drive, just push snow from different places and make piles then shape them however you want, once you have piles add rails/kickers to your liking. If you can't drive a cat, find a good (or even just decent) cat driver that's willing to help, get in the thing with him and explain where you want things to go and how you want them to look, he'll be able to move snow where ever you want....then add rails (if the driver is still willing to help, use the cat as much as you can/your comfortable with for digging/burying/shaping, then touch up and make pretty with a rake). To get a cat driver on board, a 6-pack never hurt (just make sure they don't drink it first...things don't come out exactly as planned, haha).
Apr 29 2014 10:17AM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,469
ApenflexorHe's made quite a few shredsauce maps so he knows what he's doing.


fucking gold
Apr 29 2014 10:19AM
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1337
Posts: 31038 - Karma: 29,003
ApenflexorHe's made quite a few shredsauce maps so he knows what he's doing.


bahahah
Apr 29 2014 10:32AM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
JibberinoWhat? I'm assuming you haven't done much building, as I can assure you that man made snow is far superior for building.


I disagree, I guess it depends on the snow quality of both the man made and the natural snow in the area...but I've found that man made turns to sugar far to quickly or freezes so solid that you can't rake it anymore. Sure, the initial build is slightly easier because it has a higher water content, but over time it's annoying. Generally, the natural snow in my area has a fairly high water content so it's just the same as building with man made, but the long term condition of the snow is much better overall.
Apr 29 2014 10:34AM
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Hoffman_
Posts: 153 - Karma: 277
i think that the problem really only exists in the first part of the season before you have enough natural snow to work with. In that case, i would make sure to get the rails down as a first priority then build some smaller jumps.

btw hi Web
Apr 29 2014 11:24AM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3597 - Karma: 3,895
Walter.1337Who the hell would put you in control/let you build with a cat is the more important question. Aren't you a freshman in college?


What does being a freshman in college have to do with anything cat wise? Just shows how you shit about shit.
Apr 29 2014 11:30AM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3597 - Karma: 3,895
And PM me original dude asking the questions. If I have time tonight Ill give ya some insight.
Apr 29 2014 11:31AM
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WakeBakeFapNap
Posts: 258 - Karma: 28
chacha33Nine knights or bust


Lost it
Apr 29 2014 11:50AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
Walter.1337Who the hell would put you in control/let you build with a cat is the more important question. Aren't you a freshman in college?


I know how to drive a cat, and build just not with legit winter snow.
Apr 29 2014 12:19PM
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Jibberino
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 1,333
Fair enough, I will however say that I believe you disagree with the general opinion, including my own, of the terrain park construction industry.

In my opinion man made snow is easier to build with in the early stages, holds it's shape better, and last's far longer in the spring, a very critical point in my opinion.

Can I ask where you're from?


BWalmerI disagree, I guess it depends on the snow quality of both the man made and the natural snow in the area...but I've found that man made turns to sugar far to quickly or freezes so solid that you can't rake it anymore. Sure, the initial build is slightly easier because it has a higher water content, but over time it's annoying. Generally, the natural snow in my area has a fairly high water content so it's just the same as building with man made, but the long term condition of the snow is much better overall.
Apr 29 2014 12:33PM
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BWalmer
Posts: 9141 - Karma: 12,883
JibberinoCan I ask where you're from?


Connecticut...we pretty much only build with man-made snow and it gets very frustrating most of the season, whenever we do get fresh snow the builds seem to go much easier...I guess that's what I base my opinion on.
Apr 29 2014 12:39PM
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Turkelton
Posts: 2829 - Karma: 8,558
Get some PVC stuff and get funky with it, like gap to PVC, pvc cannons and all that, so damn fun
Apr 29 2014 1:01PM
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moverfelt
Posts: 4 - Karma: 24
What hill is this in Montana? Is it a new resort or an old one that is just starting to get a park?
Apr 29 2014 1:46PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
moverfeltWhat hill is this in Montana? Is it a new resort or an old one that is just starting to get a park?


Its technically new, bear canyon.
Apr 29 2014 4:13PM
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camstain
Posts: 1124 - Karma: 387
roddy116Its technically new, bear canyon.


pics?
Apr 29 2014 4:19PM
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Austin.ski
Posts: 1034 - Karma: 2,582
Im guessing this is for big sky and i had a season pass there all last year. Why cant you take the snow guns that they use on the far side of the mountain and use them in the park. It would make your jumps so much better and you would have them way earlier in the season than this year. BTW the rail game this year was on point.
Apr 29 2014 4:29PM
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.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,469
BackwordsMediaIm guessing this is for big sky and i had a season pass there all last year. Why cant you take the snow guns that they use on the far side of the mountain and use them in the park. It would make your jumps so much better and you would have them way earlier in the season than this year. BTW the rail game this year was on point.


I'm guessing you're illiterate. That or extremely lazy
Apr 29 2014 5:05PM
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Iliveinutah
Posts: 1250 - Karma: 5,147
make a landing from dirt in the summer that way you don't have to make one in the winter and all you have to do is make the lip from snowfall, you can also do this with bigger rail set up lips. at least thats what i would do
Apr 29 2014 5:49PM
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byubound
Posts: 1636 - Karma: 9,870
BackwordsMediaIm guessing this is for big sky and i had a season pass there all last year. Why cant you take the snow guns that they use on the far side of the mountain and use them in the park. It would make your jumps so much better and you would have them way earlier in the season than this year. BTW the rail game this year was on point.

Literally the post above you says where the park is at.
Apr 29 2014 6:32PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
snowballsdeepmake a landing from dirt in the summer that way you don't have to make one in the winter and all you have to do is make the lip from snowfall, you can also do this with bigger rail set up lips. at least thats what i would do


Really only good to do if you have little natural snow, literally no snowmaking, and no plans of getting any. Or if you have a park in the same place with a jump line in the same place every year because it works. Build some big mounds of dirt and you can get big booters open that much faster in the season for much less $$. Downside is you can't change anything.

It's OP's first year on said trails so while it's possible to do dirt work and make it rad there's a lot of room for error. Worst thing you could do is build the dirt work and have the jumpline just not work out for speed, placement or anything.

Also OP said there's a plan to get snowmaking in a few years and he has a shit ton of natural snow so it's not much of a problem.
Apr 29 2014 6:52PM
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nortslayer
Posts: 61 - Karma: 222
roddy116Its technically new, bear canyon.


Are you going to just hike your park or is someone actually trying to make a ski hill up bear canyon again?
Apr 29 2014 8:10PM
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~bagelz~
Posts: 1105 - Karma: 1,067
roddy116Its technically new, bear canyon.


hows the terrain and how far is it from bozeman?
Apr 29 2014 8:15PM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
i hope youre skilled with a cat. be prepared to change your setup weekly, rails with less snow and maybe throw in a few jumps with good snow. just be prepared to change up your set up frequently or to be able to up-keep it pretty frequently due to changing weather conditions
Apr 29 2014 8:31PM
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nortslayer
Posts: 61 - Karma: 222
~bagelz~hows the terrain and how far is it from bozeman?


Bear Canyon is closer to Bozeman than Bridger. I am assuming he is putting the park in somewhere on the old ski hill up there. So its pretty mellow terrain.
Apr 29 2014 8:36PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
roddy116Its technically new, bear canyon.


Are they opening that up to the public now?
Apr 29 2014 9:01PM
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Toaster-Tony
Posts: 3531 - Karma: 5,850
What kind of budget do you have? How much cat access do you have? Are there already features at the hill for you to work with? And what kind of man power do you have?

I helped with the park at a small hill this year and I learned that there is only so much that one person can do. If snowfall is good, it won't be too hard to set up a creative rail section, but a jump line is a completely different story. You need an experienced cat driver and about twice as much snow as you think for anything close to a safe and fun jump line. When it comes down to it, it's not too hard to get away with a minimal park, but don't expect to blow anyone away if you don't have access to any of the essentials above.
Apr 29 2014 9:13PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
DiabeetoWhat kind of budget do you have? How much cat access do you have? Are there already features at the hill for you to work with? And what kind of man power do you have?

I helped with the park at a small hill this year and I learned that there is only so much that one person can do. If snowfall is good, it won't be too hard to set up a creative rail section, but a jump line is a completely different story. You need an experienced cat driver and about twice as much snow as you think for anything close to a safe and fun jump line. When it comes down to it, it's not too hard to get away with a minimal park, but don't expect to blow anyone away if you don't have access to any of the essentials above.


You can do a lot with minimal resources. Obviously you aren't going to build a booter by hand but as far as park layouts and rail setups you can make a lot happen. A little time with some power tools and paint can do wonders. Then putting in the effort to do things right the first time, and maintaining them well.

There are a lot of places that don't have the resources and manpower of the big guns in the park game, that said I don't believe that's the biggest reason their parks aren't good. If you take the rails at most places, clean them up a little bit and set them up properly you can take a pretty beat park and make it pretty sick.
Apr 29 2014 9:25PM
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