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Federal Workers Min. Wage raised to $10.10

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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Just happened, by executive order. Discuss.
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Feb 12 2014 2:42PM
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lands11
Posts: 1818 - Karma: 1,677
I have yet to understand why I actually care about politics. I care so much, but at the same time I hate politics so much. Please someone help me
Feb 13 2014 12:35PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Actually, that's exactly and precisely what it's for.

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country”

FDR on the minimum wage.

Why shouldn't people who work at McDonalds be able to support themselves? Do you eat at McDonald's?

Of course, this order was only for federal employees, so McDonald's isn't related anyway.
Feb 13 2014 12:54PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
This is why we don't take your side seriously. Painting the rich as victims is beyond ridiculous, especially when the vast majority of folks that support an increase in the minimum wage do NOT demonize the wealthy. I'm not mad that people are making gobs of money, I'm mad that they are making hundreds of times the amount of the average (AVERAGE, not lowest) worker despite the mathematical impossibility of their effort being that much greater. I'm mad that people like Tom Perkins have their heads stuck so far up their asses that they wouldn't know compassion if it hit them in the face. I'm mad that there is systemic racism and classism that causes hundreds of thousands of workers in the richest country on earth to struggle to put food on the table. I'm mad that the real minimum wage is 32% lower than it was in 1968. I'm mad that those opposed to raising the minimum wage fail to understand that inequality is a massive drag on economic growth.

73% of the American public side with me on this issue. What do you suggest is the correct direction for policy concerning this issue?


Feb 13 2014 12:55PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Or you could post a graph that's more relevant to the topic

Click for larger image
Feb 13 2014 12:56PM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
My fault. Was wrong on that assumption then. I have always looked at it as a way for people to gain the necessary experience for the next level. I think I was trying to use McDonalds as an example because if someone is a cashier at McDonalds for their entire life they are doing something wrong (to me at least). That is not the way I would want to spend my life.


I brought up McDonalds because they are the common for people arguing over minimum wage and though it was only fore some federal employees the thread was already turning into a discussion about the national minimum wage.
Feb 13 2014 12:57PM
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Benson.
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 3,787
Hahahahaha
Feb 13 2014 1:02PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
it makes me smile inside that your trying to bring compassion into politics.
Feb 13 2014 1:02PM
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lands11
Posts: 1818 - Karma: 1,677
I have never had a problem finding a job that paid less than $10 an hour. This last summer I got a job for $11.50 doing landscaping having basically no professional experience landscaping. If I work for the same guy he'll pay me $13.50. Yeah I work my ass off, but it hasn't been hard finding a job that pays more than minimum wage.
Feb 13 2014 1:03PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Why shouldn't someone be paid a living wage when they are working a job to get experience? If they aren't what are they supposed to do in the meantime? The reality is that they often have to rely on government assistance to survive, and even then they struggle to even tread water and often can't put away any savings to better their future. If working at McDonald's is to be seen as a stepping stone, we need to make sure that it is possible for people to go somewhere from there rather than become trapped in a job that pays them poverty wages (which incidentally, is exactly what the employer wants which is why labour needs to unionize).

Also, it's great that *you* don't want to work at McDonald's your whole life, but as long as you eat at McDonald's you need to treat the people who work there with respect rather than look down on them. The job may not be glamourous, but aren't you glad someone does it? Not everyone can be a lawyer, doctor, banker or engineer. Someone has to work the service sector jobs, especially now that the manufacturing sector in America has taken such a large hit.

McDonald's makes about $6b in profits annually, they can afford to pay their employees enough to live on.
Feb 13 2014 1:06PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
(You are now realizing that not everyone in America is in the same circumstances as you are, and just because something doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it isn't a huge problem)
Feb 13 2014 1:08PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
If only...
Feb 13 2014 1:11PM
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lands11
Posts: 1818 - Karma: 1,677
What's holding people back from doing exactly what I did? I found a job post on craigslist, responded, and got hired. They have access to that. I'm not arguing for or against raising the minimum wage for federal contractors. I'm just curious why people have a such a hard time finding a better than minimum wage job.
Feb 13 2014 1:11PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
There are three job applications for every job opening in the economy right now.
Feb 13 2014 1:15PM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
I wasn't trying to paint the rich as victims. Simply trying to say that people seem to be all frustrated that the rich want to keep their money and not give 40% to the government (picked 40% as an arbitrary number. Don't know if 40% is relevant.)

There are always going to be people on both ends of the specturm that you hate. I dislike the uber wealthy people who as you said "wouldn't know compassion if it hit them in the face." Those people suck, but they suck just as much as the person whos hand is out constantly saying gimme gimme gimme.

The main reason why I am somewhat against drastically raising minimum wage is that it would put such a burden on business that I believe people would end up losing jobs because of it. They would need to cut back the workforce to pay out the same funds allotted to wages. Or they would need to increase prices to match the increase in wages they have to pay.
Feb 13 2014 1:22PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
ah yes, the intentional ignorance of other people's suffering
Feb 13 2014 1:22PM
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Benson.
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 3,787
You're working a min wage job because you put yourself in that situation. Most of the world's millionaires are self-made, why can't you be like that? Have some initiative. instead of complaining about raising the wage for the shitty job you already have, why not start trying to get a better job?
Feb 13 2014 1:24PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
As someone who thinks mathematics are important, I say we should not pick any arbitrary number and in stead look up the actual number.

[img]http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/effective%20tax%20rates%20by%20income%20group%202009.png[.img]

Notice that the rate actually goes DOWN for the very wealthy.

Also, here's another graph which shows the growth of income for various income levels in the US over the past several decades.

Click for larger image

As you can see, the top 1% have been taking a much larger share of the total growth, which has kept the income growth for basically everyone else pretty much flat for 30 years.
Feb 13 2014 1:28PM
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lands11
Posts: 1818 - Karma: 1,677
Care to expand?
Feb 13 2014 1:29PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

If bread was .08 a loaf would you be complaining about $7.50 per hour minimum wage? No.  Thats why my chart is 100% relevant. 

Everyone that thinks raising the minimum wage is a good idea, PLEASE TELL ME why it shouldn't be $1,000 per hour? 

Feb 13 2014 1:31PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
Alright, I hear what you're saying. I think everyone can agree that there are pretty shitty people on both ends of the spectrum. However, the people on the wealthiest end of the spectrum exert quite a bit of power in this country and live very very well. On the other hand, the lowest earners have almost no voice and live in complete poverty. You will always have bad apples, but the poor bad apples can't exert their will and prevent thousands of other people from making a living wage.

As for the economics, you are falling victim to neoclassical models that work well in vacuums but constantly fail in the real world. Supply and demand assumes zero profit, in which case your conclusions would be correct. But in reality, massive profits exist. If companies had a more equitable salary structure, they could maintain their profits while paying the lowest earners more. Or, they could reduce their profit margins by a tiny percentage to do the same.
Feb 13 2014 1:33PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Everyone who thinks having a military is a good idea PLEASE TELL ME why we should just draft 100% of the population into the military all the time?
Feb 13 2014 1:35PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48
Not even remotely close to a good comparison.  Next.
Feb 13 2014 1:40PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
You're really showing your age on this one, kid. Your nifty little summer job is seasonal work, in which your employer must pay a premium for. No one looking for full-time employment is gonna pick that position over long-term, stable work because security is much more important than an extra dollar an hour for a couple months. Perhaps you'd be able to relate to a minimum wage worker a bit more if you didn't live and eat for free while you collect your $13.50/hr.

I don't blame you, I didn't know shit in high school either.
Feb 13 2014 1:40PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
This is not accurate and doesn't realistically represent how a business operates. Businesses do not decide how much they will pay their workers based on a pre-alloted share of profit, business pay their workers based on the laws of supply and demand. If there is a large supply of workers (high unemployment) and low demand for work, then wages will fall. If there is ample aggregate demand and a low supply of available workers (low unemployment) then workers have more leverage and wages will rise on average. Businesses will have lower profits to be sure, but in case you didn't notice *that's entirely the point*. Profits as a share of GDP are absurdly high by historical standards and wages very low, which leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. A higher MW would counteract this to a degree.

It's true that some jobs will become obsolete with a higher MW, but these jobs are low efficiency jobs that need to die off in a modern economy.

Again, I like to do science and look at numbers, so here are the results of a meta study that looked at the effects of modest rises in the MW on employment. The big spike at 0 means that statistically there is no effect.

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http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/why-does-the-minimum-wage-have-no-discernible-effect-on-employment
Feb 13 2014 1:41PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
He's not going to entertain you with a reasonable answer until you ask a reasonable question. He has provided plenty of evidence to support his point: insane income growth for highest earners, massive decrease in minimum wage in real dollars, no correlation between rises in unemployment and increases in the minimum wage, growing corporate profits, etc.

You are still clinging onto your single graph from the first page that did an awful job of supporting pretty much anything, except that inflation exists *facepalm* Meanwhile, the minimum wage argument is based on the real dollars of that wage over time and it's rank relative to earners throughout the economic spectrum.
Feb 13 2014 1:49PM
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theBearJew
Posts: 10951 - Karma: 15,633
Personally I eat McDonalds like 1-2 times a month. So where I see your point with it, I don't really apply to it. But I understand what you are trying to say. And yes I am happy that they are doing that job, someone has to. I don't look down on the people that work there. I have the utmost respect for the people that work there and in any service industry. It is hard as hell to be doing that day in and day out, trying to keep a smile on your face even when someone is a total fucking asshole.


And after reading some of the posts in here maybe I am wrong. They should be paid more and be able to put money away for savings to give them the ability to not be stuck in a dead end job.

In all honesty I am a young 24 year old guy who really has no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just saying the things I think, some of which may be wrong and some of which may be right.
Feb 13 2014 1:52PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

I have made many points.  The current one being that you won't tell me why minimum wage shouldn't be $1,000 per hour because you will make my point for me.

$10.10 is an arbitrary number just like saying minimum wage should be $1,000 per hour.  thats my point.

And based on the inflation adjusted minimum wage chart posted above, minimum wage workers and now grossly overpaid based on historical standards. 

Feb 13 2014 1:52PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
Feb 13 2014 1:53PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
Well right now people are making 21,008$ a year. Which if your living by yourself and you are smart with your money. You can live off it. At 1,000$ an hour people would be making 2,080,000$ a year which is going to be hard for an employer to sustain, and seem slightly over priced for the work they do.
Feb 13 2014 2:01PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
....someone doesn't know how to read a graph....
Feb 13 2014 2:02PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,304
Click for larger image

Didn't you get shit on enough on the first page? You don't even know what fucking inflation is...there is absolutely no reason for you to be commenting in this thread
Feb 13 2014 2:09PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
fuck I hate you
Feb 13 2014 2:12PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
that just goes to show how shit the minimum wage is.

people can't work at walmart and support a family. It's almost impossible. You taxdollars are going towards supporting those families. Why shouldn't some of walmart's profits be paying to feed those families instead?
Feb 13 2014 2:16PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
doing it on executive order is a bit weird though. Then again, when you lead a nation of fat gun-totting morons (like bandeloro), you probably should just be telling them what to do instead of asking them for their stupid opinions.
Feb 13 2014 2:19PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

I am the one that defined inflation in this thread.  Inflation is your dollar losing 98% of its purchasing power since 1913.  That is inflation.  Inflation is CREATED by people, and only affects fiat money.  Now that you know what inflation is you can be part of the discussion. 

Example, why has the dollar lost 98% of its purchasing power since 1913 while gold has retained all of its purchasing power throughout history?  Because the fed cannot print and manipulate the supply of gold.

Back to minimum wage.  $10.10 is above the inflation adjusted amount posted in the graph above, which I do know how to read.  So minimum wage is higher than it should be, even if you are in the camp of people who think you are entitled to some magical standard of living.

Raising the minimum wage results in people losing their jobs or prices of goods increasing.  Those are the only two possible economic outcomes whether you like it or not.

Feb 13 2014 2:25PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
no. you are not smart.
Feb 13 2014 2:31PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
getting serious now. if you want to take down evil fucking companies like walmart, you gotta stop shopping there. Walmart will always abuse and exploit the hell out of their employees so you can buy your shit for like 10% cheaper than a nice local store.

Do your part and buy local from places who choose to pay their employees a decent wage, instead of do it only when forced to. Right now mega corporations control a lot of america. But they only are because you are all supporting them. You need to realize that the change is in your hands, and it's not gonna happen by voting for some fucking dumbass president (rebulican or democrat).

also, vandalize mcdonalds and walmart. please.
Feb 13 2014 2:36PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
Is that you Ron Paul? Is that you woozy?

Price of an ounce of gold:
1980: $2,358
2009: $1,042

Price of loaf of bread:
1980: $1.15
2009: $2.99

Economics, you're doing it wrong.
Feb 13 2014 2:38PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
what?
Feb 13 2014 2:41PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

Price of on ounce of gold 1913 $20.64

Price of an ounce of gold in 2014 $1295

Don't cherry pick dates it renders your argument invalid.

Feb 13 2014 2:49PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
Sorry, forgot to include link. I was citing the price of 1980 gold in 2009 dollars. The timeline of gold near the bottom is precisely why talking about it as currency is ridiculous and stupid. The way it reacts to spikes in inflation and supply makes it a terrible economic indicator, not to mention our control over paper currency and interest rates is precisely why it's so important.

Feb 13 2014 2:49PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
oh I see. I thought you were posting the actual price of gold, and I was like "no!". Still, the gold boom we saw a few years ago (2011ish) was pretty significant as well. I made a good deal of money because of it.
Feb 13 2014 3:05PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48
I guess you prefer a straight line decline in the value of your currency instead of maintaining purchasing power with some volatility along the way.  Thats ok, you can continue to rely on the US dollar and continue watching its value decline.  I will rely on hard assets and take advantage of the fact that your currency is declining.
Feb 13 2014 3:07PM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 296
OH MY GOD YOU'RE SO RIGHT

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Come on kid, let's cut the crap. You've repeatedly shown that you know next to nothing about economics. I appreciate that you have an opinion and all, but you're outgunned here. You're just gonna keep getting humiliated by the big boys. It's time to stop posting.
Feb 13 2014 3:13PM
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,256
Idk why you would show that graph with your argument. It speaks completely against what your saying. Notice how the purchasing power of gold has actually increased over time.
Feb 13 2014 3:18PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

That chart actually proves my point, thanks.  Compare that to the chart of the dollar, going straight down.  Which has held its purchasing power?

Bottom line is increase in minimum wage = inflation.  Either through higher prices or lower quality goods.  Inflation=your dollars are worth less.  There is no other outcome.

Nobody has made a valid argument in this entire thread for increasing minimum wage.

Feb 13 2014 3:18PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
Goddamnit, can we get back to the minimum wage!? I want to hear some new arguments for or against it.

I'm also down to discuss public perception of the minimum wage, how the poor got poor and the rich got rich, and what we should do about it. Check out the tables throughout Pew's most recent study, they are really quite interesting, particularly the rich somewhat admitting that they think the deck was stacked in their favor (bottom table page 3).

Feb 13 2014 3:18PM
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PurpleReign
Posts: 148 - Karma: 90
No, that doesn't prove his point. What it does prove is that the value of gold is just as unstable as the value of the dollar, if not more. If you bought gold in the 70s, you JUST NOW 40 years later crawled back to zero on your investment. There is absolutely nothing preventing gold from doing that again over the next 40 years, precisely why it is so nice that the Fed can control our currency and interest rates.

I will not mention gold ever again in this thread.
Feb 13 2014 3:24PM
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AT-AT
Posts: 3281 - Karma: 3,256
If you are deserving of your pay you will get it from your employer and if your not happy you are always free to find someone who will pay you more; and if you are worth it there is no reason in why they wouldn't pay you it.

When you enter a job interview you and your employer are on equal grounds, he has work that needs to get done, and you need to work. You each benefit from each other. Minimum wage forces employers to sometimes pay more to an employee than they are worth. It does not stop them from paying their employees to much. It is a one-sided piece of legislative that hurts those who have created jobs in which need to be filled, and therefore hurts those who need to find a job.

Its basic co-existence.
Feb 13 2014 3:25PM
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ebn2002
Posts: 26 - Karma: -48

How is something that has lost 98% of its value just as unstable as something that has not lost value and is simply volatile?

Oh its so nice of the fed to control your currency!  Wow.  Hey give me your checking account number and I'll control it for you, I won't screw you and take your money, promise.

Just because the fed doesn't physically take money out of your account DOES NOT mean they don't steal your money.  I have provided a lot of information proving your money is being stolen everyday through inflation.  And Obama just took some more of it with this legislation.

Minimum wage should be abolished.  You earn the value you provide to your company.  Don't like what somebody else is willing to pay you, start your own company and pay yourself.  Then see how much of your companies earnings you want to give to people, you will give them exactly what they are worth to you.

Minimum wage is also the reason manufacturing moved to China, costing jobs.  Like I said, either higher prices or lower quality goods.

Feb 13 2014 3:37PM
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