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Is popping not necessary?

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Washow
Posts: 343 - Karma: 460
i thought you were supposed to pop to be more stable and shit mid air but someone said it's not 100% necessary and you can just glide off of kickers if you're forward enough

and when i see pro edits and shit they don't seem to pop at all. was i wrong?
Feb 19 2013 2:59AM
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Holte
Posts: 10730 - Karma: 7,744
Will popping help your balance in the air? Yes. Is it 100% necessary? No.
It depends on the trick and how comfortable you are with the trick and the jump. Think cork 3 vs sw 5.
Feb 19 2013 3:09AM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Yeah it's pretty damn necessary, but you don't have to pop with an exaggerated motion, or pop at full strength all the time. That gets saved for when you realize you're going too slow halfway up the takeoff. At some point, it just gets integrated into your carve in one smooth motion.
Feb 19 2013 3:13AM
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LukasSchroeder
Posts: 1460 - Karma: 2,683
This. Pros dont LOOK like they pop. They just dont pop hard or its a much smoother motion, not easily seen
Feb 19 2013 8:59AM
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DeRizzo
Posts: 3827 - Karma: 3,483
Thisx2
Feb 19 2013 9:45AM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
Main reason to pop a little:

Click for larger image

Sorry for crude drawing. Neutral or no pop, you don't go as high but you go farther. Since the arc is shallower with no pop or neutral pop, it is a little tougher to hit the landing hill, especially if it is one of the short steep variety.

During Denver Big Air, I got to pick the jump builder's brain. He intentionally lips up the last 2 feet a little on pro kickers to artificially create pop for the guys who hit it neutral. He is basically trying to control the jumper's flight path so the don't overshoot.
Feb 19 2013 11:02AM
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montanan
Posts: 1787 - Karma: 1,346
legit
Feb 19 2013 11:12AM
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I_liketobutter
Posts: 2664 - Karma: 997
delorme
Feb 19 2013 1:39PM
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DeRizzo
Posts: 3827 - Karma: 3,483
For this, If you made the pop line go a little higher in the air, it'd be perfect.
Feb 19 2013 2:01PM
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JakeBarrett
Posts: 1237 - Karma: 1,843
1.act like you dont pop
2.actually pop
3.???????
4.Profit
Feb 19 2013 2:06PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
MS Paint. The pop line looked a little higher when I drew it. Oh well.
Feb 19 2013 2:07PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,940
ummmm, popping harder if you're already going too slow is gonna make you knuckle even worse...
Feb 19 2013 2:15PM
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wootang
Posts: 284 - Karma: 404
This is actually kindof an interesting discussion. I find that whenever I am having a hard time stomping shit, reminding myself to pop seems to fix the problem. Do you think forward pressure on takeoffs might accomplish the same thing? I guess we don't really pop on butters etc...
Feb 19 2013 4:17PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Hahaha Russ Henshaw. I literally don't understand how he does anything. I'd be so out of control if I hit jumps like he does. Poppy jumps feel really good though.
Your example here is interesting, but I want to delve into the physics a little more.
Think of it like this example: jump angle gives you 5m/s vertical velocity and 6m/s horizontal at the start. Including your pop in this, it looks more like this:
horizontal: x= (6- some small fraction of the pop)*t
vertical: y= -4.9*t^2 + (5+ all the pop)*t
Where the lip is the origin, x= horizontal position, y= vertical position, and -4.9 is 1/2 the gravitational constant (1/2 due to integration). Since y doesn't change, you use it to solve for t for air time, and then plug that value of t into the horizontal equation to find the distance traveled.
The angle of the jump mostly determines the starting horizontal velocity, because the vertical is so much more affected by pop, but building a steeper jump will still help. I think it takes a pretty significant steepening to have a large effect, but it might still mean the difference between life and death.
However, your example here isn't absolute. It deals more with guys who are hauling ass--which the guys hitting those jumps certainly are. You actually WANT to pop more if you're going too slow, because it will give you more air time for a comparatively very small loss of horizontal velocity. You still optimize horizontal distance by getting more airtime.
If someone with a better physics background can prove me wrong, I'm actually really interested to hear it.
Feb 19 2013 6:32PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
some of your computation might be off but you're mostly right. i don't feel like nitpicking
Feb 19 2013 6:38PM
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RT_Barber
Posts: 50 - Karma: 16
holy shit.
Feb 19 2013 7:16PM
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BlakeG
Posts: 1450 - Karma: 1,030
pop holy fuck you will not progress to bigger tricks on big jumps if you dont pop you will just get off balance
Feb 19 2013 7:18PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
I'm not a math wiz, but I believe Y does actually change. Your trajectory is determined by pop (legs extending), neutral, or negative (absorption).
Feb 19 2013 7:27PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Yeah it's simplified somewhat--like I ignored air friction. I also didn't address lip angles over 45 degrees. I need to think about math that I get credit for right now haha.
Feb 19 2013 7:27PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
not even that intense
Feb 19 2013 8:24PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
I know I kinda did a bad job of explaining that initially, so fuck words. Gonna try straight math. I split it into parametrics because it's slightly easier to calculate that way.

z=total velocity at the lip, on the x-y plane. Like x/y.
theta= lip angle
vertical v(y-initial)=z*sin(theta)+ pop
horizontal v(x-initial)= z*cos(theta)
So, for the position equations,
y=-4.9*t^2 + v(y-initial)*t +0
x= v(x-initial)*t

So as theta increases, v(x-initial) decreases and v(y-initial) increases. No matter what, given the same horizontal velocity, you'll go further with a greater v(y-initial). If you're popping right, you're pushing straight up, and barely at all against your horizontal speed. This is supported empirically, as well, since popping harder always seems to make you go further. Keep in mind that this explanation is only good for lip angle under 45 degrees. Above that popping doesn't help you.
Actually after thinking about this some more, you're right, but only in this special case, which is pretty unlikely. It only works if you're hauling ass and absorb the shit out of the jump, and if the landing is super steep--which is exactly what you describe. Like it would have to almost look like a super g jump. Basically, when you absorb like that, you're reaching the same point in space at the same time, but you're doing it with a smaller vertical velocity, so you still have further to go before you hit the landing. A skim effect. And making a steeper kicker would counteract that.
Dammit, I need to do my math homework, but this is too interesting!
Feb 19 2013 9:40PM
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DeRizzo
Posts: 3827 - Karma: 3,483
It's actually a really nice drawing.
Feb 19 2013 9:42PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
I do not have any mathematical evidence to back this up, but I would be willing to bet that the the difference in trajectory between pop and absorb on a medium sized kicker could be as much as 5 degrees.

So basically if you had a kicker with a maximum lip angle of 30 degrees, a good pop could send you on a take angle of 32.5 degrees and a negative pop could send you off at 27.5 degrees.

If you don't believe it, test it out. Set a camera up on a tripod, to get a profile shot of a jump. Hit the jump once with a good pop and the next time start in the same place but let your legs kind of go limp like you are absorbing a mogul. I'm sure when you look at the footage that it is going to look like you were hitting 2 different kickers.
Feb 19 2013 10:19PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Haha I actually set up a camera and took shots of trajectories for my senior project, then ran it through some software to generate equations for the trajectories. I was focused on jump design though, not pop.
But yeah the trajectory will certainly look different.
Feb 19 2013 11:33PM
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I_liketobutter
Posts: 2664 - Karma: 997
Trajectory is more influenced with much more complex dynamics, specifically you're normal force to the snow at the last few feet of take off which changes with time, direction, and magnitude due to the amount of absorption or pop one exhibits.

You can see two extremes of this by watching a slope jock pop for his double cork mute vs delorme absorbing the lip to get a straighter trajectory at a higher speed allowing him to tap the knuckle like a G.
Feb 19 2013 11:48PM
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myllhouse
Posts: 1064 - Karma: 2,154
Click for larger image
Feb 20 2013 1:59AM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Hahaha we didn't even delve into this. I love this thread though. So much math and physics getting tossed around.
Feb 20 2013 2:18AM
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CaelW
Posts: 400 - Karma: 108
Anyone else read the title as "is pooping not necessary?"
Feb 20 2013 8:51AM
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Balbertt
Posts: 1585 - Karma: 4,723
I will run this by my physics teacher, see whats really going down hehe

Feb 20 2013 8:55AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
The biggest thing here is not whether or not it works to pop or not pop... of course it CAN work to not pop. When pros carve off the jump they're not popping at all.

However - in order to drop the pop you must first learn the pop. Pop really helps with stability, and is especially useful when you're getting started out or learning new tricks. Almost all the time you want to be popping off the lip.

That said, once you are good enough you start playing around with your own personal style. In this instance, some people will start doing things like carving, sloppy pops, or no pop altogether. They might find it gives them that extra je ne sais quoi in their trick. If you're good enough, you can totally pull it off and make it look cool.

So in closing, yes it is possible not to pop. However, this is very advanced and one should proceed with caution.

Feb 20 2013 9:21AM
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iffe
Posts: 984 - Karma: 120
Son you're gonna die if you don't poop.
Feb 20 2013 9:58AM
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Tikayt
Posts: 1031 - Karma: 1,543
For straight airs or zero spins, no need to pop if you know how to jump.
Doing a trick requieres to pop, I dunno, I can't see my self not popping for a basic rotation.
Feb 20 2013 12:45PM
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wootang
Posts: 284 - Karma: 404
So I did an experiment last weekend with this. I found that if I really focus on forward pressure on takeoffs, I don't need to pop for spins. If you watch AD, he doesn't pop much but he always has a ton of forward pressure when he hits jumps.

I think the pop basically counteracts the lips natural tendency to put you back seat, and that's why it makes you more stable in the air. Forward pressure should do the same thing...obviously this does not apply to rodeos, flats, etc.
Mar 6 2013 12:22PM
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I_liketobutter
Posts: 2664 - Karma: 997
Exactly, i see fewer and fewer kids using any type of forward pressure which is sad.

wallisch, henrik, phil, etc land like they do because of forward pressure, not leaning back. look at how bent their knees are and how forward they are in the boot.

delorme used to be a mogul skier as a kid which is probably where he gets some of his absurdly solid skiing mechanics from.
Mar 6 2013 4:41PM
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BK
Posts: 2353 - Karma: 1,122
haha. should be the answer to alot of questions.

in reality don't try to ski like him or will you hurt yourself, dude skis a higher path on his own program. at least half his tricks are like... wtf!?
Mar 6 2013 4:54PM
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Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
this, you need to grip the jump to turn, and if you don't pop when you try to turn on the jump you'll catch your edge.
Mar 6 2013 4:56PM
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Hoeseph
Posts: 190 - Karma: 112
sure you can analyze this with physics, which is interesting, but not very accurate, considering that there are so many variables not taken into consideration. what it really comes down to is experience and what you're comfortable with
Mar 6 2013 5:15PM
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SamColby
Posts: 644 - Karma: 2,006
when you bring your legs up for a grab, you can sort of integrate your pop into this motion. the trick looks smoother and you don't look like you're violently popping, you just float up to your grab
Mar 6 2013 9:06PM
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icyburr
Posts: 455 - Karma: 1,576
I dare you to try any double without popping and leaning back. You will die. You can get away with it on singles, hardly ever with anything over that.
Mar 7 2013 12:47AM
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Boggs
Posts: 1039 - Karma: 208
exactly. I don't really agree with anyone who says you don't have to pop. Even when I carve off I find I'm still popping, whether it looks like it or not. Its a skill you really need.
Mar 7 2013 12:51AM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Russ did a triple, probably without popping because that dude never pops.
Mar 7 2013 1:19AM
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sam_minton
Posts: 59 - Karma: 881
That was accidental sorry!
Mar 7 2013 3:40AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13045 - Karma: 18,291
Popping gives you energy to your trick, increases control in spins and gives you more height in jumps. Popping as a 1980's concept that was accepted as the correct way to start any maneuver for Freestyle skiing in the 90's.
I find a pop is an important part of jumping. It also corrects body position and look less like a gaper when you straight air for speed check.
Mar 7 2013 9:02AM
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Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
I constantly misread this thread title.
Mar 7 2013 4:13PM
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wootang
Posts: 284 - Karma: 404
Somebody needs to replace "popping" with "pooping" and re-post this entire thread. It works.
Mar 7 2013 5:27PM
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Washow
Posts: 343 - Karma: 460
i got into an argument with this weirdo on reddit and he was all talking shit to me about how popping is only for advanced tricks and shit and that i should not tell this new guy who was just starting jumps to pop

he was so adamant about his position that i posted this thread. now i know he was wrong and i wasn't.
Mar 7 2013 5:38PM
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M.M
Posts: 1696 - Karma: 4,490
.
Mar 7 2013 6:06PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
Yeah, you just kind of start to get the motion. I never consciously "pop" off a jump, its just something that you get used to.

Like he said, save the "pop" for when your gonna case, otherwise just do what feels good. The pop comes naturally.
Mar 7 2013 6:50PM
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I_liketobutter
Posts: 2664 - Karma: 997
listen to this man.
Mar 7 2013 8:43PM
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