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Are contests going to be all about triples?

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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Last year, you couldn't do much in a contest unless you had a dub under your belt and were confident doing a few in a row.

Now there's tonnes of people doing the triple... will that be a staple contest trick?

Will we then see people going to quad? quint?

How far does this go?

Oct 31 2012 11:03AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
This problem stems more into our collective culture on a whole. As a consumption culture we are conditioned to believe that bigger is always better, therefore, more spins and more flips must be better. Comps have always been this way, even in the beginning. The hucked switch 7 beat the clean forward 7. Why? Because it was new and more difficult. This format has continued year after year until we are where we are.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but this is a habit that is so engrained in our collective culture that it is going to be damn hard to remove.

Nov 1 2012 11:30AM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,033
Skiing is fucked.

This is how its going to go.

1. Want to win? Do a tipple
2. More trips/higher level of difficulty combined with risk = People getting hurt/die
3. People getting hurt and performing these aerials = More insurance and the appearance of qualification for tricks
3. Qualifying = More air bags/water ramp and a governing body like FIS
4. More water ramps/fag bags = More money you need (AKA you need a coach, a pass to hit the bag, and your coach needs to pay to be a member)
5. All this = No more freeskiing and just training

Meanwhile, in my back yard.... I will be working on Hippie Killers chilling with the Red Night and working at Pizza Hut because I need to pay for a coach to ski in the park even though I'm 30.
Nov 1 2012 12:24PM
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gpitcher
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 1,691
AMEN!
Nov 1 2012 12:27PM
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tbayskier
Posts: 1136 - Karma: 1,639
this.
Nov 1 2012 12:32PM
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Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
What do you mean the limit it triples? a couple of people have already done quads. All they need for it to take place in big air is time.
Nov 1 2012 12:44PM
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-ShredTheGnar-
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 111
Totally agree with this, I think a stylish single/dub looks way better than a spin to win triple..

same with rotations...
Nov 1 2012 12:51PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Great point too - I know that the AFP is really pushing to solidify things, so we need to make sure that we're looking at all aspects. Halfpipe is a place where we've seen a lot more focus on style coming into play.

I also know that it is very difficult to make judgements when you're not in the judging tower. I've done it before, and seen how much different a contest looks from up there. I always respect judging - and I think that our judges are currently doing a really good job.

I mean maybe it isn't the judges at all... maybe the judges are perfectly capable of scoring a stylish trick high, but the athletes have it in their blood to go for that next rotation. I mean it might not be the judges fault - maybe ALL of us just secretly want that next flip?

Nov 1 2012 1:09PM
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milk_man
Posts: 5214 - Karma: 6,497
In the x games if you dont do a triple theres probly no way to win because therell be plenty of people willing to do one..but in all other comps dubs should be fine because it is an awesome trick that people will never get tired of watching. as for quads, itll happen eventually  but no one knows when
Nov 1 2012 1:22PM
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SacZiplock
Posts: 2405 - Karma: 513
Future spins get $$$

But i feel sooon enough to get paid ittl take more than future spins .

Then lots of folks will probably get hurt and die . What will happen after that? Does it takes deaths to change people's mind ? Dis dumbbbbb

Fuck trips quads etc
Nov 1 2012 1:25PM
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ILLinoisance
Posts: 3527 - Karma: 5,398
Let people do what they want and let the judges judge how they want. If someone wants to throw themselves off a jump and do a triple and make it look good, they deserve to be rewarded accordingly. Remember, it's called freestyle. Anything goes. Trying to make rules against triples is just retarded. The attitude to not triple needs to change within the competitors, but good luck getting guys like Bobby and TYW to not spin to win.
Nov 1 2012 1:29PM
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ski0
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 5,370
Style = Subjective
Technicality = Objective


You cant have style comps, it just wont work , judging would be sooo much of a shitstorm sorry. If you really want style, watch inspired movies - not x games.


I really think that slopestyle will continue to be a sport for jocks, and that it will eventually become a sport like aerials or moguls, and not really considered a part of freeskiing.
Nov 1 2012 2:13PM
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Chinchi
Posts: 1591 - Karma: 4,210
In my opinion, I think triples will definitely be the standard trick for big air because 1. Big air is what all the non skiers get really excited to see, and people who don't ski want to see aerials 2. It's a big air comp, I feel like its supposed to have future spins and it's where the "big names" show their stuff. I don't think slope style courses will be triple lines except maybe the last hit but only in desperation, because the jumps just aren't big enough and I doubt skiers would want to risk it unless they truly needed to. As far as judging style, I agree with the guy who said we need to wait for a new generation of judges because for non freeskiers it's really hard to judge amount style because it is so subjective and oftentimes subtle. I don't think triples in comps will affect my skiing, but it might affect future generations and cause a generation of unstylish future spinners.
Nov 1 2012 4:40PM
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Capurnicus
Posts: 9947 - Karma: 1,886
Wait, there's still a comp scene?
Nov 1 2012 4:58PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Read the thread - there's points that address this. Style can be judged objectively.

Nov 1 2012 5:01PM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
The key to making style the emphasis is to forget about skiing as a sport and think of it as art. Whoever has the most aesthetically pleasing way down the mountain is the best skier.
Nov 1 2012 5:47PM
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VANULAR
Posts: 1930 - Karma: 5,131
a quad flatspin japan will go down , probably Gus or Bobby
Nov 1 2012 5:52PM
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garagely
Posts: 5 - Karma: 10
what the fuck do i care about contests future? i ski for fun, thats pro´s business
Nov 1 2012 5:53PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
i'm still not happy with this. I mean "fluidity" pretty ambiguous in the first place. Also judges aren't xboxes and can only rely on what they see to judge a trick. If a tiny little flail is going to dock big marks, then why would a pro skier try to do a big cork 5, when any flaw would be more obvious to the judges, than a near flawless double (or in the future triple). I think at the top level a pro skier can do a double cork basically as flawlessly as a cork 5. Maybe if you slow the footage down so the speed of the rotation is the same you can pick out more wrong on the dub 12, but in real time no chance.

I mean I think the judging could focus more on really sick grabs or shifty type things but on a whole I really don't see how you could ever give a perfect cork 5 a better score than a perfect double cork 12 based on any written down judging rule. Unless we install accelerometers in the skiers so we can do it like the xbox.
Nov 1 2012 5:57PM
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Martgiblin
Posts: 101 - Karma: 153
I personally think that there isn't a problem with Triples becoming the staple trick of comps. I think an important way to think about the main (not only) objective of a competition is (arguably) to determine who the best skier is. Now as mentioned before there is a balance in style/technicality which determines which trick is harder... A styley as fuck cork five is perhaps "harder" than a hucked double and so on.

 I think competitions have there scoring systems pretty sorted at the moment as their main focus is to determine the technically best skier. I would have an issue with this if there weren't specific "king of style" comps etc where style is judged as the more important factor in the style/technicality spectrum. I much prefer seeing a style orientated comp but hey, there's a few!

As long as triples predominantly stay in comps, and don't dominate edits/film segments (which I think are getting more and more style by the day!), then I've think we have a pretty good thing going in Skiing at the moment.

But I would like to see more comps (that all the top dog skiers should participate in) focusing more on style maybe every now and again
Nov 1 2012 5:58PM
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Afterbang.no
Posts: 1105 - Karma: 4,297
That being said, I just want you to know that there will be no King of Style in Stockholm this year!!

still  style/technicality worked well in Zûric and London this fall! And by that method you get a bunch off variety off tricks!

Butt iff a guy wanna trip, let him trip! There was an "amateur" in Norway this who almost landed a trip flat! just fucking draw points from the trick if the grab is sloppy and landing is bad, there will be fair, and trips will be beatable! But if Bobby stomps a tripple 14, why the hell shouldn't he win?


Nov 1 2012 6:28PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Now, this specific statement sets in stone that style is not technical. Your point is based on the fact that style takes no technical prowess, and I disagree with that fact. It takes an immense amount of technical prowess, and I would argue that in fact its harder than simply doing the biggest trick.

Nov 1 2012 6:30PM
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jtotheizzoe
Posts: 28 - Karma: 168
1) fact of the matter is the comp scene has created this monster, and it'll keep on going... everything is cyclical

2) someone said jam format, which reminds me of us open snowboarding (which if anyone saw last years setup was sick)

3) elaborating on #2, i personally i think its time to expand upon the current comp format and find a happy medium between "rail jam" + "slopestyle" (emphasis on style) with longer, more creative and flowing courses that can be attacked from new and innovative angles, as opposed to just maching vertically down a modern-day comp slopestyle course where your run is over if you gaffe one landing or speed check at the wrong time... time to let dudes like will wesson get some more love on the comp scene, because after all lets face it the kind of riding he's doing is way more representative of 90% of what's really going on out there on the mountain. there's always gonna be a place for the high-flyers and what has really become glorified multi-hit big air (current slopestyle), but the sport as a whole needs to do a better job of staying relative and accessible, cuz sooner or later there'll be training facilities in china churning out olympic-level quad flipping slopestyle skiers now that medals are at stake. look to skateboarding as being slightly ahead of the curve, they have their mega ramps and halfpipes but there's still such a strong base around street because the everyday rider doesn't have access to a megaramp
Nov 1 2012 6:31PM
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562056961108
Posts: 0 - Karma: 575
I think he should win only if it is technically flawless, grabbed, and smooth (as defined objectively by Bishop). This is a high value trick on all accounts (style, difficulty, amplitude probably).

By definition, though, a trip 14 is less stylish than, say, a switch cork 7, because you have more time to make a fluid, smooth motion (perhaps a poke or shifty too).

I kind of think of it like diving, but with less flips and rules... a more perfectly (stylishly) executed switch right cork 9 with a bunch of style and amplitude should score higher than a messy double.

But a dub flat 9 with an "equal" (note the quotes) amount of style as the aforementioned switch right 9 should garner a higher score. I think AFP does a relatively great job of this already, we just need to clarify it formally in their judging / rule book.

my 2 cents.
Nov 1 2012 6:46PM
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steezerampage
Posts: 2171 - Karma: 214
I think a little more focus in this discussion needs to be on the jumps that are being built for comps.  Jump building has come a long way.  Just look at the big air jump at 1:50 in one of my favorite skiing clips of all time.  The quality is tough to watch but you get the idea.  10 years of improving jump building has made for some amazing trick possibilities.  What are the builders going to do this year? or 5 years from now?  What will jump progression be?

I wish we would see more grab, shifty, bio, flat, under, over, and other axis variations.  Instead of doing more, I think it should be about doing a trick differently.  The Gagniers are masters of this.  Always looking for a new way to do a trick.

Also at the risk of taking the free out of free skiing, I think we some sort of rule in a comp that a trick on a certain jump must be a style jump, or one trick in a run must be a style trick.  Otherwise tech will always drive the scores and be the focus.  Finally HH finds a way to put some style into a dub other than changing grabs and everyone is blown away. 

What if it became standard to do a style trick in comps.  when everyone is doing the same tech tricks the style trick would become the focus.  Think about some of the crazy tricks, a nose butter backflip 180 dub blunt is one I enjoy dreaming about.
Nov 1 2012 7:50PM
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Sit
Posts: 177 - Karma: 293
This is a really good point. I remember when TJ stomped the dub 1620 at X Games, I lost my shit harder than I ever have for a slower spin in the park. This was probably more down to the fact that I had never seen it before, rather than it was an extra rotation. The same thing happened when Frej (Johnsson* - sp.) dropped his massive dub 9's, saftey to blunts at JOI.
We need to judge in a way that recognises this variety. Maybe, if you throw a clean trick with a grab thats never been done, or no-one else is doing, it should be judged up there with a clean spin with an extra rotation. This might encourage variety in not just the underlying tricks, but also in their execution.

Also simply defining style to smoothness isn't going to be that useful. Some 'style' skiers, (Matt Walker comes to mind), ski very aggresivley, with sharp movements that could be overlooked if it's all about smoothness. Maybe instead concerntrate on how unique and controlled the style is, allowing people to be smooth or aggressive, but if done with same control, get the same scores.

Nov 1 2012 8:24PM
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doGelyst
Posts: 2491 - Karma: 508
Amped 2. Greatest snow game ever. Probably scored "style" as well. Thats how comps should be :P
Nov 1 2012 8:38PM
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B.Aussie
Posts: 5851 - Karma: 4,522
Apples to Oranges. It's actually harder than learning a foreign language such as German or French as a lot of the words are the same just with different letters, but these words that look the same have different meanings. It gets quite confusing switching dialects all the time. The only reason I can speak American is I went on exchange to Colorado for 4 months so I could master the language and do well on my high school American language exams.
Nov 1 2012 9:14PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
Style can be somewhat objective. Regardless of if the skier is aggressive (cause I've seen people who weren't smooth, but looked like they were attacking the rail they were hitting, and liked their style) or smooth, you can clearly tell if they're good or bad. You can tell when somebody is having a hard time.

For whatever reason park contests have come down to most/biggest/you have to double every jump and do a future spin off the canon rail. Cause there's always a canon rail. Which is why I like big mountain comps. Sure, there's the biggest cliff, air or spin off something, but you can still do good navigating a crazy line or doing something else like that.

If anybody watches surfing, the asp world tour broadcasts, they are sometimes a good example of judging. Sometimes being the important word. Today Taylor Knox, who I'd say is part of the "old school" aka non aerials type surfer beat out some younger "new school" surfers purely by his style of power turns and awesome flow. No 360s involved, although others did throw them. Point is the judges value linked, drawn out turns as much as pumping along with the wave until a ramp section comes up.


Nov 2 2012 12:31AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Actually, I'm going to park rat out here for a second....

Can you explain to me how big mountain comps are judged? As a pure east coast skier, I know very little about the real depths of this field.
Nov 2 2012 12:33AM
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I_Do_Aerials
Posts: 110 - Karma: 441
no one has ever died doing aerials, and the people who have gotten paralyzed have done so by falling before the jump while checking speed. Aerials is much safer than slopestyle.
Nov 2 2012 1:39AM
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Afterbang.no
Posts: 1105 - Karma: 4,297
1 jump judged on style, 1 jump judged on tech, then 1 jump to improve one off the scores, total score counts, was the judging in the city big airs this fall
Nov 2 2012 4:27AM
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C.A.V.
Posts: 1706 - Karma: 1,644
I Honostly think people should not do triples, i think the sport should work on the most stylish singles and get more stylsh dubs with more techincal grabs, not spinning to win, triples are cool to see but there dumb
Nov 2 2012 8:21AM
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CoreyMacCallum
Posts: 16 - Karma: 16
It will probably never happen but it would be cool if there were flip limits on jumps for pro comps. For instance Jump 1 - single flip, open spin Jump 2 - single flip, 540 Jump 3 - double flip, open spin
Nov 2 2012 8:40AM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,746
Wow, I never had a clue.
Nov 2 2012 1:04PM
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GabeN
Posts: 3 - Karma: 10
Even though I am new to freeskiing, I can picture contests going to shit.
Nov 2 2012 1:08PM
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freeski1620
Posts: 5670 - Karma: 1,718
I'm watching 1242 at the shop right now.

I wish it was still enough to make it to the end of a rail or stomp a bio 10. Those were the days boys. those were the days.
Nov 2 2012 1:10PM
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Ali_Dibden
Posts: 1966 - Karma: 1,688
I agree with all those that say style needs to come into play a bit more, take Bobby Brown for instance, he is an absolute machine at triples, doubles, pretty much anything he tries but if he were to get more style he would be destroying everything this year like TWalls last year, style definitely needs to come into play a bit more!
Nov 2 2012 1:12PM
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ski0
Posts: 2321 - Karma: 5,370
Compare the style of russ henshaw with phil casabon ?? Points are already given to how smooth a run is, but true style cannot be measured objectively but rather is in the eye of the beholder
Nov 2 2012 1:29PM
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Holte
Posts: 10730 - Karma: 7,744
Who are all these people doing triples off standard park jumps? I can't think of more than 10 skiers who have a triple in their bag, much less who have the ability to could throw one over a 70 foot jump in a slopestyle comp.
Nov 2 2012 1:29PM
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Logan.
Posts: 717 - Karma: 1,862
I'm not a huge fan of triples (even though they can look kinda sick) i just wish that instead of triples being the big deal in the big air world, that it was more things like doubles with really difficult grabs, maybe even double 14's and 16's, but triples do not look that great, and I think if someone managed to huck one on a slopestyle jump it would probably be waaay to fast spinning to look cool at all, yet the judges would almost for sure give that person the win.

i wish skiing took a jump 5 or so years back. The women events might start to be the most fun and steezy events to watch soon.
Nov 2 2012 1:55PM
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Logan.
Posts: 717 - Karma: 1,862
Sorry for double post.
But in terms of what people have been saying about triples only being on special made jumps, think about that thats what the double was years ago. Take warren millers "playground" for example (it might of been children of winter, I can't remember) but during the park segment the biggest trick was a double 10 and that was made on one of those specially made spring jumps, same idea of how triples are today.
Nov 2 2012 1:59PM
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nico.vuignier
Posts: 23 - Karma: 450
I think it's not the judges fault nor the skiers'.
As skiers we adapt to the terrain that is given to us and lately slopestlyle course have been getting always more formatted... nowadays a typical slopestyle course contains some more or less creative jibs, then 3 big kickers in a row... perfect for technicality but leaving almost zero chance for creativity and originality.

if we want to prevent the comp side of our sport in going into even more spin to win and only technical stuff, i think slopestyle courses need to change.

I'm sure it would be ten times more exciting to watch if there were multiple lines different jumps, spines, quarter pipes, trannies and, so on... so that the rider could really express himself (that's what our sport is about, isn't it?) with this you could see some people really stand out because of their creativity/style/flow and not only their technical skills.

Nov 2 2012 2:06PM
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coolflash8
Posts: 3171 - Karma: 2,046
red night swag
Nov 2 2012 2:33PM
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I.B
Posts: 8137 - Karma: 24,354
didn't read every post in this thread.


But it shouldn't be about the amount of spins/flips you do. but how much style you do with them.
Nov 2 2012 3:34PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
not if someone does a dub 3 or 5
Nov 2 2012 6:12PM
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EARL
Posts: 598 - Karma: 3,052
But can you? Is it possible to 'progress' style? I personally think style is something unique to each individual. Its something that you develop as you ski. I guess the more you ski technically your style could improve... but for the most part i don't think that style is something that can 'progress', It's just the way people do things.
Nov 3 2012 2:49AM
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Stumpa
Posts: 250 - Karma: 380
True.  But look at Olympic Kayaking, it's a completely man made river.  Look at mogul skiing.  Hot Dogging bump runs were so exciting because you didn't know WTF was going to happen.  The downside was shitty mogul skiers who had exciting runs won until they had a criteria for the judging.  Then the building of mogul courses with jumps in two spots started to happen to give the courses a uniform consistency.  Personally, I feel like mogul skiing and competitive mogul skiing are now two different animals.  If slope courses are mandated the same will happen.  So I agree that slope courses need to change and maybe some courses should have more rails with a small jump mixed in.  I love to watch good quarter hits and that shows diverse technique.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching BIG air jumping, but we gotta have good designs and good landings AND mix up the courses so a good rail skier has an advantage on certain courses.  Most slopestyle courses have been going to three big kickers in a row and a couple of rails thrown in.  Plus, the size of the jumps and corresponding less than perfect landings contribute to the blown knees and other injuries.
Nov 3 2012 11:19AM
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MLB
Posts: 4462 - Karma: 298
It's just going to go like snowboarding. Your going to have comp killers, and video freaks. The separation is just going to get massive, between the two. I think we can't really control the comp scene because of the modern format of competitions. Its not just happening with skiing ...... its also around most other modern action sports. Seb Toots doing crazy shit, 360/corks in motocross, half pipe skateboarding.

In all these sports it seems like the style side just goes into the video side of the sport . In all honesty I don't think that there is much we can do about it unless we change the way we view "action sports".
Nov 3 2012 1:04PM
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seanahue.
Posts: 2142 - Karma: 3,371
On mobile so I can't really get the full mojo going, but IMO Big Bear/Coker's War of Rails contest is the direction I feel ALL comps should be headed: judged by former/current freeskiers, open to Joe Schmoe and TWall, jam format with multiple heats, plus an entirely separate video portion that opened the whole resort up for those who weren't feeling the contest course
Nov 3 2012 2:26PM
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jca
Posts: 4162 - Karma: 6,262
basically you´re judged on 5 categories - line choice, control, fluidity, technique, and style/energy. Line choice is the most important because you can´t score more than 3 points higher than your line score in any other category. so if you choose a super mellow that scores a 2/10, even if you absolutely rail the line with immaculate technique while tossing in tricks, you´ll max out at 22/100. this tends to reward the strongest skiers who are technically sound and have some balls. it´s worked out well in my experience.
Nov 3 2012 4:42PM
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