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Peaceful Parenting

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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
I first posted this on another site and I feel that it's an important message to spread:

Let me make this clear. The physical effects of hitting children, even without leaving marks, are indistinguishable from assaults that do leave marks. Hitting children, even without leaving marks, has been shown to result in lower IQ scores and decreased self control. It is positively correlated with alcohol abuse, drug addiction, sexual addiction, and criminality. "I was hit and I turned out fine," is not an argument and is an anti-scientific approach. The consensus in the psychological community is that hitting children is invalid in all circumstances. Not only is it ineffective in decreasing bad behavior, it often leads to its increase. There is no argument to be made in support of hitting children in any manner whatsoever. Denying the harms of spanking is as intellectually dishonest as denying evolution, gravity, or the germ theory of disease. It's time we extend the same rights to children that we have extended to minorities and women.


Jun 9 2012 9:26AM
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Travapple.
Posts: 6787 - Karma: 88
what a load of shit
Jun 10 2012 10:59AM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
-
Jun 10 2012 11:01AM
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HitTheJim
Posts: 787 - Karma: 399
Hitting children, wives, animals, and anyone for that matter is, in fact, an effective way to make them behave how you would like them to. It's simple psychology, if the fear of the consequence outweighs the motivation for the initial action you wont do it, and hitting is a really simple way to instill a great amount of fear. With this being said, it is by no means correct. There are alternate ways to bring fear and respect into a child's psyche without causing them harm, it's just a lot easier to hit them.
Jun 10 2012 11:06AM
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.Jacob
Posts: 1838 - Karma: 1,160
If I deserve a smack around the ear, I get one. I earned the punishment, it's not like my dad hit me for his pleasure, it's to teach discipline. Parents need the respect they deserve.
Jun 10 2012 11:13AM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
It seems to me that parenting is actually going in the opposite direction these days. Parents are over protective of their children; They aren't allowed to go outside by themselves, if they climb too high in a tree they have to get down, etc. Kids spend a lot of time indoors, in front of a television screen that acts as a babysitter. Unfortunately, even though parents think that what the kid watches is censored/controlled, it most often isn't.
Jun 10 2012 11:45AM
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bdarb207
Posts: 3057 - Karma: 438
My brothers ex chopped down the lilacs in front of our house one day because she said a bee could sting her daughter. Face palm and a fml. Twofer.
Jun 10 2012 11:48AM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
Yeah, stuff like that. I don't know of any statistics that actually analyze this, but it seems that this overprotection is what people perceive to be proper parenting. I mean, I have heard that kids aren't allowed to walk to their friend's houses which are just a few blocks away. In the end, this just causes them to be overly dependent on their parents.
Jun 10 2012 11:53AM
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JORMUNGAND
Posts: 360 - Karma: 480
except that it prevents infection and, when done surgically to an infant with correct anesthesia, is painless and no different from other surgeries. I have no recollection of being circumcised, but it was done, and now my penis is infection-free and does not look like a disgusting tan worm.
Jun 10 2012 12:02PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
http://www.nospank.net/pt2011.htm

This has some good information, let me know what you think.

Jun 10 2012 12:03PM
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bdarb207
Posts: 3057 - Karma: 438
My favorite is being stuck behind a school bus that stops every other house. Makes me feel like !!!!!!!!!!!. Does anyone else remember walking to the damn bus stop. At least when I'm old I can say to my grand kids "i remember when I had to walk three miles in a foot of snow uphill both ways..."
Jun 10 2012 12:07PM
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bdarb207
Posts: 3057 - Karma: 438
HA! This.
Jun 10 2012 12:09PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
 The people who invented it believed that infection was caused by gods and demons. True, cutting off part of the penis can prevent infection. And chopping off your foot will prevent athletes foot. Fortunately, in both cases infection can be prevented with basic hygiene.

I was circumcised as well, so I don't believe I'm speaking from any kind of bias. Being disgusted by the human body is pretty Victorian. You'd think we'd be over that by now.
Jun 10 2012 12:09PM
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llambert
Posts: 1005 - Karma: 81
lol at the guy whos dad kicks his ass a 16 hahaha im 16 and im larger and stronger than my dad
but we arent like that at all, my dad never hit me, he said because when i did something bad enough to deserve to be hit, he was so angry that he would have knocked me out so he didnt do that, but he said his dad didnt hit him, (my dad was born in 1954) but he had friends just covered in welts from their dads whipping them with belts and shit
Jun 10 2012 12:10PM
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ryano
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 1,535
no. that is stupid. spanking your children is a good thing for disciplinary actions toward disobediant children. do NOT get me wrong, because it is a fine line. obviously, you will not spank your children for every little disobediance. but there IS a time and place for it. if you are hitting your children out of rage or because you are angry, it is NOT acceptable. but if you are spanking your children because they have disobeyed multiple times, and have forewarned them, etc. then yes it is a good thing.

without it, there is nothing for your children to be "afraid" of. there are obvious steps to discipline. spanking being at the far end. after they have broke the rules so many times. like the counting system.. "you have till 3 to stop" or whatever it may be.

without it, all you will have is very immature, self entitled and spoiled children growing up thinking that there are never any hard core consequences to fucking up. you see it all the time on NS with the "fuck the police" stories and kids being like, "police are fucking stupid cuz they gave me a ticket for speeding or minor for possessing weed" etc etc.

the bullshit of mental affects is ridiculous. people have been spanking their children for disciplinary actions out of love and correction for century's. and it has never had a bad affect on children when done in that way.
Jun 10 2012 1:49PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
Yeah I used tO get hit as a kid I mean it was with a belt but most of the time I deserved it Because I some how fucked up. I'm also glad unlike 95% of the people I meet I'm not a bitch afraid to fight
Jun 10 2012 1:54PM
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ski.free
Posts: 75 - Karma: 34
Yeah and what I can tell from your posts, is your a alcahalic, gambling, man whore, who is also a sadistic violent asshole. Yeah you turned out great.
Jun 10 2012 2:08PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Look, you're a smart guy so I'm not going to insult your intelligence by acting like what you put forward was an intellectual argument. I've obviously put a lot of thought and time into this topic. I could be completely wrong, but to just label it as stupid is entirely dishonest and insulting.

Why do you believe that children need to be afraid? What evidence do you have that, without being hit, children will become immature, self entitled, and spoiled? Examples from NS are anecdotes, worthless to a discussion based on the scientific method.

"The bullshit of mental affects" is cold, hard science. You can deny them if you'd like, but that puts you on par with those who deny that the earth revolves around the sun. The chinese have ground up bones for medicine for centuries, yet it has never been effective. "It has been used for centuries" is an argument from antiquity, a logical fallacy.

Again, I don't want to sound patronizing, but I think you're too smart to have not picked up on the fallacies in your post. If it's not too personal of a question, what's your history with corporal punishment?

Jun 10 2012 2:36PM
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.ZT.
Posts: 5679 - Karma: 2,792
I agree with OP
Jun 10 2012 2:41PM
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Zimmerman
Posts: 6992 - Karma: 1,021
very very good thread and very well stated. You're doing a great job of addressing all counterpoints and such. More people need to read this, keep it up.
Jun 10 2012 2:49PM
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annex_
Posts: 1659 - Karma: 1,499
Personal opinion: spanking is not abuse, unless enforced through belts, paddles etc with excessive force. I have no problem with spanking but i'm never going to become an over-protective mother either. Kids need to learn through experience. I think the problem now is that kids don't have respect for authority anymore / they believe they "deserve" things for no reason / and they aren't taught that there are consequences for their actions. I was never grounded, never 'beaten' but i had respect for my parents and for their house and still do.
Jun 10 2012 3:39PM
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jblaski
Posts: 5561 - Karma: 1,027
Holy shit. NS is full of a bunch of pussies!

Now, if only teaches were allowed to hit asshole kids too, the US would be a much better place.
Jun 10 2012 3:41PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i am not surprised that you out yourself as being part of the lower IQ popuulation.

Jun 10 2012 3:51PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
I have no response to that
Jun 10 2012 4:29PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,940
Wasn't sure if you were educated properly on subject or not, then i read this and knew you were not.
Jun 10 2012 5:29PM
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Bodhisattva_
Posts: 5749 - Karma: 2,009
I don't even remember being circumsized? But fuck it that's what I'm blaming all my psychological problems on now. Fuck you mom and dad, if you would have left my Dick alone I would have left meth alone.
Jun 10 2012 5:36PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,940
he's obviously some sort of internt profiler. To bad criminal minds doesn't have any extra openings for him in the show.
Jun 10 2012 5:38PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
I would say about 80% of that is spot on.
Jun 10 2012 6:02PM
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MrWadsworth
Posts: 29 - Karma: 10
So what did you do today that earned you a spanking?

Don't worry. My parents stopped spanking me at 12. Only a year to go bud.
Jun 10 2012 6:03PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4685 - Karma: 3,407
There are kids out there who got sexually abused young enough not to remember it, but still have the effects from it. Sometimes irrational
Jun 10 2012 6:21PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4685 - Karma: 3,407
I'm just saying it's not impossible for irrational fears and behaviours to show up this way.
Jun 10 2012 6:22PM
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Bodhisattva_
Posts: 5749 - Karma: 2,009
Yeah I know that I just disagree that circumsizing has lasting detrimental psychological effects.
Jun 10 2012 6:45PM
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EastCoast315
Posts: 3136 - Karma: 137
Right, Phd's in clinical psychology have done a plethora of studies, soundly backed by logic and empirical reasoning, but you "disagree" on no basis whatsoever; save for the fact that uncut dicks freak you out.
For 98% of human history, we have not cut foreskins off. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Challenge yourself to think logically and stop being squeamish.
The quoted text is based on nothing, and is ignorance in its rawest. On what grounds do you disagree? What studies have you conducted? Have you been psychoanalyzed lately? Share your findings with the scientific community!

Oh wait, you can't. My bad.
Jun 10 2012 7:33PM
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Six.0.Tree-ski
Posts: 4059 - Karma: 67
thats what im sayin, its needed in some cases.

OP i get what you're sayin, but spanking your kid is almost necessary. It's a part of growing up and learning what you did wrong multiple times to get that spanking. quit bein a little bitch
Jun 10 2012 7:42PM
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Bodhisattva_
Posts: 5749 - Karma: 2,009
Well someone
Jun 10 2012 7:48PM
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Bodhisattva_
Posts: 5749 - Karma: 2,009
Well someone took me a little too seriously..
Someone also is pissed that daddy cut his anteater off...
I don't have any scientific backing that lopping off foreskins doesn't cause damage because frankly I don't give two fucks. You won an argument about foreskin. Congratulations!
Jun 10 2012 7:52PM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
I will definitely spank my kids if they are being little shits.  I think spanking loses it's effectiveness after kids are about 10 or 12 though.
Jun 10 2012 8:00PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
Aha
Jun 10 2012 8:10PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
I know the people who are acting like they've "caught me" on a statistic have already made up their minds, so I'd like to make it clear that I'm posting this for the benefit of the people who care or are unsure. Here is where my brain drew the 80-90% figure from.  

"MOST CHILDREN in the United States experience spanking and other legal forms of corporal punishment (CP) by their parents. Research up to about 1985 shows that more than 90% of parents used CP on toddlers and more than half continued to use it during the early teen years. Even this high figure represents a decrease from 99% in the 1950s and 97% in 1975. There have been further decreases since 1985, but almost all children continue to experience CP. These high prevalence rates and the high rates of approval of spanking may be interpreted as an indication that parents spank with little thought of possible side effects, such as later aggression."

From Spanking by Parents and Subsequent Antisocial Behavior of Children  by Murray A. Straus, PhD; David B. Sugarman, PhD; Jean Giles-Sims, PhD



Jun 10 2012 8:13PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
The full paper:

http://www.unh.edu/frl/cp24art.htm
Jun 10 2012 8:16PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Apologies for the triple post, I believe this is the correct link: http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=151&issue=8&page=761
Jun 10 2012 8:25PM
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.Natty.
Posts: 1030 - Karma: 84
Parenting is a really difficult thing to analyze scientifically. Statistics mean nothing to the individual, if you're kid is being a shithead which is very possible even if you're the best parent in the world and spanking him will get him to stop then it's fine. That spanking is way too insignificant of an event to have any lasting effect on the kid.

Don't compare children to women and minorities. Children will always have different rights and will never have total freedom. If they ever do, I really hope I'm not alive to see it.

What would you do as a parent instead of a little spanking if you're kid needed serious disciplinary action? Give him a timeout in his room?
Jun 10 2012 9:14PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
i am absolutely going to smack and spank my children. not to beat them without mercy in a harmful, aggressive manner, but to show them that there are consequences to actions. children don't understand logic so you can't reason with them or explain to them why things are right and wrong, they have to learn, and what better way than inflicting minor, temporary physical pain. it wont have any lasting damage on them, it'll just reinforce that we live in a world with rules and when rules are broken or overlooked, you need to understand that isn't tolerable.

i feel like i was raised very well and i had my share of spanking and damn near beatings, and now that i'm older i understand that it was for my own good and i learned at a young age that you couldn't get away with whatever you want and just talk your way out of it or feel no remorse. i feel guilt, i feel shame, i feel like i do not want to do wrong because i can foresee those consequences and that helps me make better decisions in the present. these are all qualities i can attribute to my strict parents who took it upon themselves to set the tone, and like i said, you kind of have to do that physically, because yelling, talking, sitting in a corner, and all other forms of lesser punishment simply don't cut it.
Jun 10 2012 9:20PM
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ryano
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 1,535
well said and i 100 percent agree. worded better than i did. i used the word "afraid" but i think he mistook it. but you hit the nail on the head.

i too was spanked on the ass and slapped on the hand. and i deff learned not to be a little brat. and i turned out wonderful, successful, and responsible and know there are consequences to me being a dumbass or disobeying the law (and when you're a kid, its your parents law)
Jun 10 2012 9:44PM
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Six.0.Tree-ski
Posts: 4059 - Karma: 67
Best post in this thread.
Jun 10 2012 9:45PM
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bdarb207
Posts: 3057 - Karma: 438
Anathema ladies and gentleman. Beating your kids and disciplining them are two different things. Someone above said when you as a parent are wanting to cause your child harm, that is different then teaching them what they're doing is wrong. I didnt get spanked growing up but my brother did and I got it, don't be a shithead, so I wasn't. Also we had it out plenty of times growing up, is that inappropriate or brothers being brothers because we're fine and I think we both learned lessons from those growing up also.
Jun 10 2012 10:15PM
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manutdsaol
Posts: 906 - Karma: 56

semi-related
Jun 10 2012 10:32PM
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Bodhisattva_
Posts: 5749 - Karma: 2,009
Yeah me and my bro have Fucked each other up pretty good. I enjoyed beating his ass and he enjoyed whooping mine and I tho k we turnednout alright..
Jun 10 2012 10:55PM
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CrotchKiller
Posts: 9037 - Karma: 6,940
im so angry
Jun 10 2012 10:58PM
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Dr.Gonzo
Posts: 2552 - Karma: 87
my dad always played bad cop, he had no badge though we didn't give him mad props,
but now i respects it, guess its perspective in hindsight seeing its corrective.
so when i get kids if they get arrested they gunna get licks like brethmints, check it.

shad says it right.
Jun 10 2012 11:05PM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
unless i'm mistaken, the last thing said in that video is there's nothing to prove that circumcision has any effects later in life. so unless i'm misunderstanding that, you can't say 'that it's been proven to do irreversible psychological damage'
Jun 10 2012 11:05PM
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