Beating a dead horse here, but I hate high gas prices...

90% gas tax

Not really 90, I exagurated a  bit If we are aiming for exact numbers:

The 2007 fuel tax was € 0.684 per litre or $ 3.5 per gallon. On top of that is 19% VAT over the entire fuel price, making the Dutch taxes one of the highest in the world. In total, taxes account for 68,84% of the total price of petrol

I think alot of the people saying to ride the bus or take a bike forget how shitty it is. At least where i live. there is a free bus system but it takes like 2 hours to go what would take 20 minutes in a car. No exageration. Also what about if you catch the bus and remember you forgot something? you have to get off and wait another hour or 30 minutes for it to come. Also you cant just stop in to a store real quick. you have to get off the bus do your shit then wait another hour for the next bus. Bikes are a viable solution for the city but i live in the mountains and the county i live in has 3 towns but they are like a system. For example, I live in town one but work in town 2 and i like to hang out in town 3. biking from town 1 to 3 takes about 90 minutes of hard work. Biking is OK but you cant really bike in the winter which is 6 months here. Bottom line, unless you live in the city bikes and buses are a pain in the ass.

Where are you getting this "a lot of you"? Three page thread and only three people said take the bus or ride a bike. That's not exactly a large sample.

Maybe more desolate areas like where you seem to be cater more for the use of personal vehicles unless public transportation is made more felxible, reliable and quicker - that will never happen if there isn't a clear want or need for it.

As for you saying that the free bus system sucks because you fuck up by "forgetting something" or can't dip into the store quickly is just silly and selfish.

We don't have more flexible, reliable, and quicker transportation because we don't want or need it? That's ridiculous. Everyone wants more flexible, reliable, quicker transportation. You're talking like governments (or let's just say the US gov. for the sake of this argument) is actually interested in providing what people want. By your reasoning most Americans must want war in the middle east, brain destroying public schools, and trillions of dollars spent on bailouts. Talk about blaming the victims...

First of all, all you Europeans complaining about how expensive your gas is, no one cares. All that extra money you pay is thanks to your governments.

Second, I love the morons that post, "drive less! This is going to eliminate unnecessary drives!" I find it hard to believe that you're so fucking stupid you don't realize that steep increases at the pump affect people's entire livelihoods. For many people struggling to make ends meet (who aren't on Obama's permanent unemployment dole), those higher gas prices are the difference between getting by and going under.

Third, Obama is to blame for the steep increase in oil costs. At every opportunity, in regards to energy in particular, he has proven to be completely incompetent. He has done nothing at all to curb energy price increases, in fact he's only helped drive them up. I'm sure most of you Obama supporters have never even heard of the Keystone XL pipeline. This proposed pipeline would move Canadian oil across the US to Texan refineries. Obama killed the project back in January, killing thousands of American jobs and creating an even heavier dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Not only that, his unnecessarily long moratorium on Gulf oil production after the BP spill has driven the supply even lower.

It's cool though, all those solar companies he pumped taxpayer money into have been doing really well. What a fraud.

I didn't mean that at all, read that guy's post I was quoting, he said that he doesn't want to use public transportation because it's slow and hindering and doesn't cater to his needs where he lives, and he prefers to use a car, so I said that if you don't stand up and raise the issue at least, nothing is probably going to change too soon, no matter who has control over the situation, federal or local government or private bus lines.

no it isn't, The major expenses: base purchase, gas, insurance

Here's a very real world example, A 2006 nissan Xterra, with 100k, costs $13500 straight up drive it for 100k miles and sell it for $6800, that's $6700 out of pocket to use the car for 100k. The vehicle gets a combined 16 mpg that's $4,375.00 to drive the 100k miles at $3.5 a gallon. Insurance would run about $700 a year
$6,700 base
$4,375.00 for gas
$4,200 for insurance

Even a car that get great gas mileage like a Hyundai Accent comes out to $11,000.00 base and $18,606.05 gas over 100k miles.

Ah I see. My post was unjust in that case. Butttt (there's always a but, isn't there?) I still disagree with you.

Governments in general care very little about what their citizens want, the United States government arguably less so than most other western countries.The entire purpose of governments is to transfer the wealth of the taxpayers to corporate scumbags, public union scumbags, military industrial scumbags, and to political scumbags. It's theft. I refuse to raise any issue with the government other than to say that they have no validity and no authority (besides the authority that guns give them) to exist as an institution. If I were to ask the government for better public transportation, what would I be asking?

Imagine the following scenario. My girlfriend and I are on our way to dinner and discussing whether we should take the bus or a taxi. The taxi will take us directly to our destination in a comfortable fashion but is slightly more expensive than the bus. The bus is cheaper, however, it will take a  winding route, make stops at every corner and will likely result in us missing our dinner reservations. We decide on taking the taxi and I start to dial their number. Before my call goes through, a mugger runs up to us. He pulls out a gun and says, "Give me your wallet!" Not wanting to get shot, I hand over my wallet. The mugger runs off down a dark alley leaving me with 20 cents in my pocket, only enough to take the bus.

What a predicament I've found myself in! I don't have enough money to pay the taxi, nor enough to give other private companies incentive to develop another form of transportation. Taking the bus clearly isn't a valid option. What should I do? Should I confront the local gang and demand they use the money that was stolen from me to improve the bus system? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.

And so I ask you, how is what the government does any different? The government operates on taxes. Taxes are coercion. I'm forced to give the government money against my will. That is theft. Now some people are going to say, "You choose to live here, there's a social contract!" Nonsense. Moral rules must apply to all people at all times. If the government can make up a rule called "If you are born in a certain geographical location, you must give me money" then anyone can. If anyone can, no wealth would ever be transfered because if you demanded 10 dollars from me, I would demand 10 dollars from you. Taxation would be invalid. So there can be no such moral rule.

Now if someone thinks that the people in the government are the best way to get good transportation, that's great, but you have no right to force others. If one believes governments to be valid or moral institutions, one must prove that some individuals -collectively called the government- have the right to use violence to do what they want and others don't, the only difference between the two groups being conceptual labels.

If one can't do this, then they should at least have the integrity to admit that their political beliefs are not worked out from first principles, are not philosophically consistent, and are no more than opinions with a gun.

Wow, great post. Came from the heart, eh?


Although Finland is always at the top of the "Less Corrupt Countries" listing according to some international transparency organisations, it's obvious that while smaller in scale and well hidden, there's a lot of fucked up shit going behind the scenes, specifically with our government-owned VR Rail company, which owns all railways and operates a monopoly, barring entry from other upstarts. Even then, if there are things that go unnoticed by people making decisions, nothing will come out of it and the issue must be raised and they are often listened to and dealt with.

At least here in Helsinki public transportation is based on convenience, speed and interconnectedness. The point is that without any outside forces causing hickups, it's almost as fast if not faster to get from point A to point B with buses, trams, trains etc. than with a personal vehicle. But as to your point that the government doesn't care or what you could ask from them - take initiative and ask around if there are people who would like better public transport instead of relying on their cars in these times of high gas prices. Contact someone who can look into this, a pro-bono lawyer, or an environmental lawyer willing to look into a case, or your state or city representative, I don't know, these are first things that popped into mind.

If there is no real want or need for a service or no one to even ask "why", I still think it probably will not appear out of thin air.

Here's my basic point: Discussing how and in which ways governments spend money is irrelevant, and until the government stops stealing money from its citizens, any discussion over private solutions is irrelevant.

There's only one fundamental question that needs to be asked; do you think violence is the best way to solve complex social issues? If yes, then there's no discussion to be had. I'm not going to pretend it's a civil discussion when violence against me is being advocated. If no, then we can't have a government.

i just lost it sooooo hard haha

solid post, but there are many other expenses involved with owning a vehicle. do you drive on one set of tires for 100k with no oil changes?

Are high gas prices making you sour?  Check out www.lemonparty.org  !

agreed. lemon party 2012!

it's time to take back our country.

This graph is the most telling thing posted in this thread.  Oil prices are traded on a global market (aside from places like Iran), so prices are parallel, with Netherlands simply paying more due to added taxes.  Check out how the price curves match, jumping and dropping simultaneously.  Oil prices in the US are not any particular politician's fault.  We are running out of "cheap" oil (aka "Peak Oil") and now must produce from more expensive sources (tar sands, water injected wells, etc).  These sources simply cost more, no matter what country you live in.  As a result, some lifestyle change will occur for some citizens in the US, whether they like it or not.

you cant compare gas prices to those in other countries. When I went to Europe, there was almost 0 need for a car. In fact, next time I find myself in europe I probably will save my money and not rent a car.

in the US there really is no public transportation outside of major cities and urban areas.

oh indeed there are other costs, such as tires, usually rated for 60k or 80k miles at $400 to $800. An oil change is $30 every couple months...Oh and don't forget windshield washer fluid! Had you said "tires and regular maintenance are a small expense when compared to the overall expense of owning a vehicle" you would have been right and I wouldn't have bothered to respond but you said "fuel is a small expense when compared to the overall expense of owning a vehicle" which simply isn't true.

Another point in the thread is, why not develop it to be better over there as well?

plus k to you sir. i am straight subaru stuntin and its a cunt to fill up a 60l tank hardly lasts a week

It'll be fucking impossible to develop a public transportation system that allows you to travel between cities plus most cities like Seattle or Tacoma (just speaking for ones I have been in for extended periods) the road system is so built up that the only option is raised monorails and our state is fucking broke.