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The future of freestyle skiing instruction/lessons

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thankagaper
Posts: 911 - Karma: -1,550

everytime i go to denver or boulder im sure to meet a girl who knows this pro skier/snowboarder that lives up at breck.im always curious, so i dig for more information, only to find out that he works for vail resorts as a ski/ride instructor...Pro. yup, some dude slipped it in with the "im a pro" pick up line, which i think is great, nieve girls deserve this kindof trickery... but on to the serious part of this thread.

Most people are unaware of the fact that when you apply to be a ski instructor, skiing isnt really a requirement. the first time i instructed wat at mount snow vermont where there was no on snow try outs of any sort. the people hired became pros without ever having to make a turn....again i think this is great because gapers and newbs should feel like they are being instructed by some super pro.

This is where i dont agree. PSIA level standards are growing into the park aspect of lessons and instruction. the same people who cant even make a turn are claiming they are park pro instructors. these people are arguing over the PROPER technique to do a switch up on a BOX. PSIA standards are oxymoronic as our sport exists because of FREESTYLE.  more and more levels of park instruction are being created and its not good for NS.

I believe there should be lessons offered to shred the park, but not by PSIA standards. the reason is that it takes years and money to build through the PSIA levels, learning proper techniques and positions. but these people dont know the first thing about freestyle maneuvers and terrain parks. PSIA can not continues to control this

May 25 2011 1:02PM
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yellav
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 1,217
technically their profession is skiing so yes they are pros
May 25 2011 1:04PM
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Gknow
Posts: 627 - Karma: 358
I worked at mount snow and was PSIA certified last year...this year they brought me into teaching park because the certification proved I knew how to teach kids the fundamentals of skiing and therefore could teach freestyle better than those without certification.
PSIA is like mogul skiing or racing. It provides a solid background that allows you to go on to bigger and better things.
May 25 2011 1:10PM
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vauban08
Posts: 575 - Karma: 119
Well to ease your pain, it's pretty much the same in the Alps. Old farts write books about how we should incorporate "freestyle skiing" in ski school. It goes without saying that there is no point in reading a two-page in-depth explanation of how a backflip should be approached and how it should feel.

And yes, I agree that the skiing level of many instructors is not good enough. It is very important to know how to teach (didactics) and how to work with children in general (pedagogics), but if you don't understand principles of movements and biomechanics and are not able to demonstrate properly, your students might have fun but won't really progress.

As freeskiing is, as you said, a free sport, it shouldn't really be a thing that is being taught in a commercial way. Style is individual...as soon as you have a teacher, it's more about copying. But if lessons are offered, instructors should have a PSIA qualification. Why? Because even freeskiing requires certain basic skiing skills and if you learn them the wrong way, accidents can happen. IF you really want to TEACH freeskiing, you need to know why a student can't make a rotation or why he/she can't hold the balance on a rail.

If you're with a bunch of friends, phrases like "you can do it" or "come on" might be enough. If you're teaching, you need to observe, analyze and advise properly.
May 25 2011 1:20PM
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Gharf
Posts: 1390 - Karma: 983
the required level in france to be an instructor is rediculously high on the racing side, super low on the freestyle side.

i wish they would do a freestyle instructor diploma.
May 25 2011 1:24PM
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thankagaper
Posts: 911 - Karma: -1,550

**************OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE************

May 25, 2011.

PIFS- Professional Instructors of Freestyle Snowsporting launches worldwide freestyle park instrucional program. PIFS is hiring established professional skiers and snowboarders to offer private expert level freestyle instruction. We will also be offering beginner and intermediate instructor positions that will be filled on a regional basis, with a portfolio type application. Our clients are beyond the basics, and have outgrown available instructional programs, the new organization of professional instructors of freestyle snowsprots will be the premiere association within the freestyle terrain parks in the coming years.

May 25 2011 1:29PM
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thankagaper
Posts: 911 - Karma: -1,550
upper managament, website developers, and financial backing also welcome at this time.
May 25 2011 1:32PM
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brf726
Posts: 91 - Karma: 15
PSIA stresses movement analysis on every level of certification, which if you had prior freestyle knowledge, you could use. Problem is, there are no opening level freestyle courses or requirements. Freestyle is different, you need to know how to hit a jump to teach someone how to hit one, you need to be able to judge the speed so that your student doesn't overshoot or undershoot the jump the first time they hit it. There simply isn't enough certifications out there to put the teaching of freestyle skiing in the mainstream yet. Maybe if there was an AFP certification that could help. Still though, freestyle is FREE, there is no correct way to do a fs swup so long as in the end you swithed it up.

Also, that's not fair that you got to teach park Galen.
May 25 2011 1:32PM
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ski@jaypeak2
Posts: 2800 - Karma: 394
If you take a "PARK LESSON" then you probably are a douche and deserve to be taught by a douche. It doesnt effect me at all if some guy from texas want to pay $75 to learn the proper technique of a 360.
May 25 2011 2:21PM
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pghjibber
Posts: 1298 - Karma: 329
yeah that stuff has bugged me in the past...

i taught at mammoth as a ski instructor for the last two years, one year as full-time, and the other times as part-time.

What I've come to conclude about freestyle instruction is that 1. the resort is terrified of liability, and would rather put a level 3 PSIA instructor with little to no freestyle skills in a park lesson vs. someone of a lower cert/no cert who is clearly a better park skier 2. freestyle ski instruction is such a small market for ski lessons, they could really give a rat's ass in the long run

If people legit want to teach freestyle they should go about trying to work at specialized spots like Woodward

I was offered a full-time coaching position at Woodward Copper, and in comparison - Mammoth probably put me on two park lessons in two years due to them being so hung up on cert levels
May 25 2011 2:24PM
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Scott0_robot0
Posts: 3291 - Karma: 212
every instructor that i work with is very competent, but when it comes to the park there is me and a few other's and most on the skiing side of things can teach jumps and 3's and such but when it comes to a rail they dont know what they ae talking about half the time i swear it annoys me.
May 25 2011 2:27PM
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fratskier69
Posts: 1868 - Karma: 1,272
best thread on here in a while.

also it will result in a lot more injuries if the instructor is an idiot.
May 25 2011 3:26PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7268 - Karma: 33,300
my resort has park and pipe teach lessons
May 25 2011 4:11PM
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Scott0_robot0
Posts: 3291 - Karma: 212
i agree with this though. Alot of those guy's and gal's are pretty good riders but those people that are high up in P.s.i.a can't teach worth shit.
May 25 2011 4:32PM
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Jombob
Posts: 113 - Karma: 97
I work as an instructor in canada so with the CSIA and it's pretty much the same deal here. I've tried my level 3 three times now and the pass rate is extremely low and it's always the same type of person who passes 30 ish years old descente/avalanche jacket and skis nothing but groomed runs and obsessed with their technique. I try and sum up the key points within 60 seconds as nobody actually pays attention for much more than that, especially when out on a slope. When it comes to the freestyle side it isn't much better at Level 4 (the highest level) it includes a large race component, mostly technical skiing on groomed runs but no element of freeride or freestyle.
May 25 2011 6:31PM
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steezenskis
Posts: 1044 - Karma: 31
i dont see how you can have one "proper" way to do any trick in the park, because that would take away the style of the sport. i could see how you caould be certified to teach teqnique though.
May 25 2011 9:57PM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
I can't really see how any other sort of certification outside of the traditional instructing bodies could work. It would solely be a freestyle qualification, making it fairly worthless to a skischool, as freestyle lessons are not a big earner. The only way to really change this sort of thing is to go through PSIA/CSIA/wherever and change it there, and eventually it will change, just not very soon.

I have a park and pipe coaching qualification from NZ, the guys who taught the course (5 days) were legit coaches who were/are involved with the kiwi pros, and it was a great course. There were very few prescribed progressions that you might find in a normal level 1 or 2 course. Good personal development, and a good insight into how the top coaches work. Unfortunately this course has now moved away from the instructing organisation, and over to the coaching organisation, so currently there is no 'instructing' freestyle qual in NZ.

Personally my goal is to become an examiner and start a decent freestyle instructing course. My personal level of freestyle skiing isn't all that high, but for instructing, as opposed to coaching, I don't think it needs to be.




May 25 2011 10:15PM
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Inline.
Posts: 4424 - Karma: 432
I live in Montana, I don't give a shit
May 25 2011 10:19PM
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sneezin
Posts: 632 - Karma: 430
i taught my friend how to ski literally 3 days before we both became ski instructors
May 25 2011 10:22PM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
Shit dude, JJ passed and you failed!!? Something in CSIA is fucked up.

The demographic that passed the NZ 3 at Coronet was pretty different to what you describe in Canada, hjb (you met him at our house) and I both ski park a fair amount, and the other dude was also a younger British guy who was into freeriding. We had to do a jump (very small) and ski switch (the examiners were pretty bad) in the exam. In the free runs I am pretty sure I scored well because I jumped off of everything I could.

Maybe you should give the 3 a shot in NZ, you back to TC this year?
May 25 2011 10:24PM
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Jombob
Posts: 113 - Karma: 97
Yeah, can't belive JJ passed, I have the skiing part but not teaching. Probably gonna start working on my NZ coaching qualifications this season as instructing is starting to frustrate me a bit. We'll have to meet up for a ski soon, maybe a snow park night sesh.
May 26 2011 4:15AM
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kingskier
Posts: 1045 - Karma: 11
yeah to be in the esf dont you have to be within like a few seconds of that mountains slalom race course?

or something similar


alot of the non esf schools dont have this. your ability to ski very fast down a slalom course will not effect your ability to teach on a max of easy blacks
May 26 2011 5:36AM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
Love too man, but I went for a bit of a change this year and am heading to Argentina for the winter. Prob be back to NZ next year as I want to get started on my trainers qual.

Like I said in my earlier post, the coaching course in NZ is really good, it's changed a little now (I need to do a race module to make mine valid) but the park and pipe element is the same. I think coaching would be a cool route to go down, but it seems like even less cash than instructing, much more fun though.

Have a good winter!
May 26 2011 7:38AM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
It's not only the ESF, to work in France at all you need to do the Test Technique, which is a slalom race, if you pass that you can work for 4 years as a stagiere (trainee). If you want to stay working there you need a top instructing qualification and a pass in the Eurotest, which is a GS race with a higher pass requirement than the TT.

I kind of agree with the need for a high level test to protect the job, but the ET is fucking hard. I have definitely taught lessons where being able to ski everywhere well is neccessary, one dude I taught for a week this year had done 2 seasons working in the snow, heliskied, the works, if he had got some level 1 noob he would have complained.
May 26 2011 7:44AM
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Craigskis
Posts: 6648 - Karma: 1,636
If I had a private lesson from Scott Vail my skiing would go next level.
May 26 2011 8:03AM
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kingskier
Posts: 1045 - Karma: 11
i wanna get my ski instruction qualification. i think i cant start next year (when im 16) but its gonna take a while. i can ski slalom but i dont know if ill be able to ski a course that fast!
May 26 2011 8:09AM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
If you can already ski slalom ok, a bit of training and you'll be fine, you don't have to work in France straight away, though probably the best long term pay is there.
May 26 2011 8:18AM
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hanksy
Posts: 659 - Karma: 265
At my local hill, for park lessons, we have one of the older pros who has never skied park before go with a junior instructor who's young but has plenty of experience in the park. The kid does most of the talking about what to really do, and when the older pro has something to contribute about fundamentals and movement or whatever, he does. I think this is a really smart way to go about it for a small resort with a pretty new park lesson
May 26 2011 10:02AM
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.peter
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 63
Unless you're getting park lessons from a legitimate current or ex-pro you shouldn't even bother. If anything, skis schools should have mentor programs where older riders in the park are encouraged to take younger riders around. (maybe for a break on their passes as compensation). Otherwise skiers and snowboarders should learn how to ride park the same way skateboarders do. By doing it a lot, and figuring out what works for you.
May 26 2011 10:47AM
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Rosbif
Posts: 2543 - Karma: 930
I couldn´t really disagree more, why it necessary for someone who´s teaching someone to do a 360, or basic railslide, to be able to do a dub 12, or whatever? And honestly people progress much faster with help, than just trying it themselves. We´re talking mostly about kids on holiday here, whose parents want them to have fun and ski with other kids. Not park rats who ski every weekend. Though those kids often need coaches too, and those coaches are very rarely ex pros.

And your park plan sounds ridiculous, why would a ski school do that? They aren´t there to just help people ski, they are they to help people ski and make money. A lot of time the older riders in the park are instructors anyway.
May 26 2011 12:41PM
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kingskier
Posts: 1045 - Karma: 11
yeah when i leave school i was hoping to do a season straight away. are there less requirements as such in canada or america? ( which is where i was hoping to go cause ive never been there before and wont before this)
May 26 2011 2:12PM
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Jombob
Posts: 113 - Karma: 97
In Canada you would need CSIA level 1 and the states PSIA level 1. Some smaller hills may give you a job offer if you don't  have it and you could do it when you get out there http://banffnorquay.com/ is a good example of a resort that could do this. You would just need to have a fairly good parallel technique be comfortable on easy blacks but most improtantly have confidence speaking to groups and be able to explain the basic principles. You would also need a visa which you could get through http://www.bunac.org.uk/uk/workcanada/
May 26 2011 3:08PM
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kingskier
Posts: 1045 - Karma: 11
ok can you do your CSIA course in england? i was looking to get my BASI (same but just british qualification) but would it be better just to do my CSIA if i wanna work there
May 27 2011 12:24PM
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