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Filming tips.

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B.Snow
Posts: 1859 - Karma: 92
I've always been pretty interested in shooting video and filming skiing(like every other kid on this site), but I've only every just kind of scratched the surface. This year I'm feeling a lot more pumped about it, and feel like pursuing it a bit more. I've already posted like a million of these questions similar to these but I'm pretty sure these are my last ones haha. I would have kept this in the movie maker cult but its dead as shit.

I've been checking out video's and tutorials all over the internet and I just kind of want to know the basics when shooting video, and more importantly, shooting skiing. Here's a few questions that I have:

ps.(I shoot with an Hv30 but am thinking of upgrading to an HDDSLR sometime later on this this year.)

1. When shooting skiing and stuff is it best to just leave the camera on auto or to set stuff up manually?
(I guess if I were filming with a fisheye and doing followcams and stuff auto would be the way to go, but I'm talking about for still shots where I might want to manually control my image.)

2. Say I want to take the camera off auto and manually control my image how do I go about doing it? I know how to set shutter speed, aperture and white balance but I want to know what the correct order is, when setting these things. Should I start with shutter speed then aperture and then white balance?

3. What is the best format for shooting skiing? Obviously since I have an Hv30 I can only shoot in 60i, 24p and 30p but I was wondering what the ideal frame rate is for filming skiing. I'm gonna shoot in 30p this season but I'm guessing the ideal frame rate is 60p?maybe?


If anyone has any other sick tips It'd be sick if you could share. I've kind of been looking all over the internet and stuff and I figured I'd just ask questions on NS as opposed to a photo/video forum. If anyone knows of any good video forums please share those too.
Nov 18 2010 11:26PM
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kfilenda
Posts: 509 - Karma: 72
the point of filmmaking is to tell a story, dont lose sight of that, it is a big rule that I try to follow, yeah random banger shots put together can be interesting, but a story engages the viewer, expresses your ideas/thoughts/opinions and can actually make the process of making an edit, short or whatever you want easier, I try and think of it almost as an essay, grasp the audiences attention, have a beginning, middle and end.
Nov 19 2010 1:53AM
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thisandthatfilms
Posts: 7713 - Karma: 525
threads for when im lon a compuuter
Nov 19 2010 2:55AM
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SassySloth
Posts: 3753 - Karma: 2,095
Threads fo show
Nov 19 2010 10:12AM
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B.Snow
Posts: 1859 - Karma: 92
bump
Nov 19 2010 5:13PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
1. Filming manually is always best, even if you're doing followcams. If you really want to shoot on auto, make sure the light won't change. A changing exposure within a shot is one of the most telltale signs of an amateur. But if you're manually adjusting settings, make sure you change them whenever the light changes.

2. I don't know much about the hv30, but it doesn't matter what order you do those things in. Just think, do I want deep depth of field or shallow depth of field? If you want shallow, set a low aperture. If you want deep, set a high aperture. Do you want motion blur or not? If you do, set a low shutter speed. If you don't, set a high shutter speed. Sometimes you'll want a shallow depth of field and motion blur, but it's too bright out. So you will have to compromise by either deepening depth of field or turning shutter speed up. But the point I'm trying to make is that the order doesn't really matter; there's a number of factors that will determine shutter speed and aperture.

White balancing makes sure your colors are correct, it's unrelated to shutter speed & aperture because it doesn't affect how much light hits your sensor. You just want to do that whenever the light changes because things take on different colors (cool colors in the shadows, warm colors in the sun).

3. 60p is probably the ideal frame rate. Since you're on the hv30, you will probably want to do 60i for slow motion, even though that's not ideal. If you know you're not going to do slow motion, I like 24p. it has a nice film aesthetic. But another option is to shoot everything at something like 60i and conform it to 24p (I believe you can do this but i'm not 100% sure, I've never dealt with conforming before editing).


Nov 19 2010 5:32PM
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B.Snow
Posts: 1859 - Karma: 92
sick, thanks dude.... The only I still don't get is the aperture ... will 5.6 have a way shallower depth of field and 1.8 have more depth? or is it the other way around?
Nov 19 2010 5:40PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
other way around. it's kind of confusing at first, i know. but the lower the number (in this case 1.8), the wider the aperture is open. the wider the aperture is open, the shallower the depth of field is.
Nov 19 2010 5:43PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Auto is bad 100% of the time. Ideal framerate is personal preference. I prefer 30p with some 24p thrown in, but many people like 60p...a lot. As for settings, anywhere from 1/48 to 1/100 shutter speed can be used for 24p. For 30p/60p, 1/120 looks best. The order you set white balance etc. doesn't really matter, just remember that focus should be the very last thing you set.

Also, a true fluid head tripod is the most useful support you can buy, and it will last you well into your 40s if you buy right.
Nov 19 2010 6:25PM
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p.hawks
Posts: 2832 - Karma: 581
im pretty sure that the way interlaced (the i in 60i) works is that the first frame is the odd lines, the second frame the even, so 60i is similar to 30p, but there are some disadvantages, like the fact about the subject moving between frames. 30p is good for action, 60p is better, and i believe that on the hv 30s they automatically conform from 60i to 24p when you select 24p
Nov 20 2010 4:36PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
yea that's exactly how it works. but i'm not sure if i understand what you're saying? because if you film in 60i you can do slow motion in post (not as good as 60p, but people have been using 60i for slo-mo for years), and then you could conform it in post if you want it to have the feel of 24p.
Nov 20 2010 4:39PM
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p.hawks
Posts: 2832 - Karma: 581
30p you can do slow mo also, i just heard that progressive meant whole frame at once, where as interlaced meant odd lines (resolution) for odd frames, even lines to even frames. not to be confused with a cmos sensor, which has rolling sensor issues because it does each line one at a time, and a ccd sensor which usually has a global shutter that captures the whole frame at once. anyways, i guess what i'm saying is that from what i've read, it looks like 60i is equivalent to 30p, so you should be able to slow them down the same etc. I've gotta head out, but if theres more confusion I can try and find some more info from google.
Nov 20 2010 4:49PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
i understand perfectly how all this works dude, haha you don't need to educate me on this, trust me. there's no way i was going to confuse interlaced with rolling shutter, i own a canon dslr that records in 1080p yet still has rolling shutter problems.

it's not like the camera records half the image of an instant, then records the other half of the image in the same instant, then puts them together. it records half of the image at one instant, half of the image the next instant, and so on. so you're working with the same amount of information in the long run, but the information is less spaced out.
Nov 20 2010 5:01PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
60i is not even similar to 30p. 60i is blatantly smoother and has that soap opera look.
Also, 60p is not generally better for action. Both 24p, 30p, and 60p all have aesthetic advantages/disadvantages to shooting action. 60p is just the easiest to use, but it is by no means better. I actually shoot 24p and 30p most of the time. I almost never use 60p because its only 720p, which involves more line skipping and worse artifacting, so for DSLR use I feel the cons of 60p far outweigh the pros.

hv30s do not automatically conform to 24p. All DV cameras ultimately record in 60i, so in order to actually get progressive frame rates from your hv30 you have to do a reverse telecine in Cinema Tools or something similar.
Nov 20 2010 7:08PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
thanks, i was hoping somebody would back me up on that one. i also forgot the hv30 was DV, im not a fan of fake 24p or 30p.

just out of curiosity, what do you mean 720p has more line skipping and worse artifacting? do you mean compared to 1080?

oh and if you were to shoot 60p and then conform to 24p, would it look just like you had originally shot at 24p?
Nov 20 2010 7:15PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
DSLRs take the image from a huge sensor (s35 on a APS-C, FF35 on a 5d) and downsize the output to 1080p or 720p using line skipping. This is what causes artifacts such as aliasing and moire. The more you have to downsize from the original image, the more line skipping is needed, and thus the more artifacting is present. So in theory, the lower the resolution you're shooting, the worse the artifacts. Plus, I just think 60p is so over used, so even if it shot 1080p60 I still don't think I'd use it that much.

Also, conforming is the only way to go man! 60p played back at 60p is regular speed, and extremely smooth and ugly. Playing back 60p footage at 24p (aka conforming it to 24p) is what makes it slow. I find this process much easier. I use Cinema Tools to slow down all my footage before even opening FCP. That way, I can have slow motion clips without ever having to adjust speed in the timeline.
Nov 20 2010 7:23PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
aha that makes sense.

but for conforming, why wouldn't you just shoot at 60p all the time then, especially 1080p60? because you would be able to slow it down more, correct?
Nov 20 2010 7:33PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking...

Footage shot in 60p is stuck in 60p...playing it at regular speed isn't an option because the motion looks unnatural. Film was always played back at 24 fps, so 60 fps (or any frame rate) by convention is supposed to be played back at 24 fps. Slower is not automatically better. With 60p footage, you basically have to play it back at its slowest speed to have natural motion. Conforming frame rates isn't like changing speed on a timeline, where you adjust it to whatever speed you desire. You only have one option: the original frame rate the footage is shot in.

If I want a clip to be regular speed, I shoot 24p. If I want subtle slow motion, I shoot 30p. If you want even slower, shoot 60p. I have three frame rates to choose from.
Nov 20 2010 8:00PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Not sure if that makes sense, so I will just say that unconformed footage has an unnatural movement to it, so I conform every single non-24p clip to 24p. If a shot is in slow motion but I want it to be regular speed, I simply don't use it.
Nov 20 2010 8:04PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
but would conforming 60p to 24p have roughly the same effect that overcranking has? like when I overcrank at 60:30p, would that be what conforming 60p to 24p would do?
Nov 20 2010 8:04PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
No, because 30p and 24p are two different frame rates...

I don't have much experience using 60p on the HPX cam (almost everything I shoot is in 24pN), but when I did have to use it, I just shot 60p@60p then conformed to 24p in post.
Nov 20 2010 8:12PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
that's why i said roughly....

what i meant is that when overcranking, it 'shoots' at 60fps but 'records' at 30fps, resulting in a video that is 50% of real time.

so will 60p conformed to 24p result in a clip that is 40% of real time?
Nov 20 2010 8:21PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Just because the numbers are close doesn't mean they look the same. 30p footage looks vastly different from 24p footage. Likewise, 60p conformed to 30p looks vastly different from 60p conformed to 24p. If you're shooting tapeless, there is absolutely no reason to conform to 29.97 or work on a 29.97 timeline (unless you like soap operas).

As for the percentages, I think 40% is the right number. I remember there used to be an old trick involving slowing 60i footage down 50% on a 24p timeline to achieve 60F. I never really messed with it; since it was 60i it was only half resolution, so it looked like ass anyway.
Nov 20 2010 8:38PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
*40%
Nov 20 2010 8:38PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
i know man, i'm not clueless about this stuff. i know 24p and 30p clearly look different, but what i was obviously getting at was the fact that it will be slowed down to 40%, not the 'look' of 24p vs 30p

but my question still stands then: you say you wouldn't even film at 1080p60p. but if you can conform it to 24p anyways, why not always shoot at 60p so you can have the look of 24p after you conform while still having the slow motion options of 60p?
Nov 20 2010 8:42PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
I don't think you're quite following. There are no "slow motion options." 60p footage is going to be uber slow unless I don't conform it, in which case it will look way too smooth and be unusable. If I want 24p, I HAVE to shoot 24p. There is no way around that.

Conforming takes 60p@60p (regular speed) and converts (conforms) it to 60p@24p (slow motion).
Nov 20 2010 9:01PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Opps, wrong word choice here. It does not convert, it simply conforms. Converting would turn it into 24p by dropping the spare frames, thus creating regular speed with pleasing motion qualities (in theory).

Conforming takes the same amount of frames and plays them back at a slower speed, which is what slow motion is by definition.
Nov 20 2010 9:09PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
aha, yea i see now. we were on the same page, but for some reason i was thinking that you could just speed up the conformed footage if you wanted it to play at real time, completely forgetting what that can do to the footage (i've slightly done that a few times with overcranked footage, but i forgot that at a certain point it looks terrible)
Nov 20 2010 9:09PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
You're incorrect. Footage shot in 60p will play back at normal speed in a 60p timeline. If that footage is imported into a 30p timeline, it will play back at half speed or (slowmo).

And your last comment about having 3 frame rates to choose from is confusing. I assume you're working in a 24fps timeline? I don't think you understand that 60P doesn't mean "slow motion" unless conformed to 30fps. If you shoot 60fps it's regular speed, so yes it is an option, you aren't stuck in 60P.

My advice is that if you have the option of shooting in 60p, then always shoot in 60p. 60p will play at normal speed in a 60fps timeline and if you desire slowmo your 60p footage can always be conformed to 30fps.
Nov 20 2010 10:35PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Click for larger image

60p played in a 60p timeline looks like ass because the frame rate of the playback is too fast. Sure, its possible to use 60p for regular motion, but not without your footage looking like shit. Hence why I say you are stuck in the frame rate you shoot in, because playing footage back at any speed other than 24fps looks bad in my opinion.

Reading comprehension is overrated anyways...
Nov 21 2010 2:40PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
And this is horrible advice if you're using a DSLR (actually it's just bad advice in general considering that 60p@60p looks like a video game). If you read my explanation of line skipping, you realize that shooting 720p on DSLR sensors has so much moire and artifacts that it's unusable in most situations.
Nov 21 2010 2:52PM
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leapinglions
Posts: 294 - Karma: 16
my threads
Nov 21 2010 3:11PM
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family_vacation
Posts: 6200 - Karma: 7,841
How is this debatable? 24p looks so much nicer.
Nov 21 2010 3:56PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
so what format and timeline would you recommend working with for the mixture of standard and slow motion speeds?
Nov 21 2010 4:52PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
This is kind of what i'm trying to figure out. You said that if a shot is in slowmo but you want it in regular speed then you simply don't use it. So my question to you is what frame rate should i be shooting in all the time? You're telling me that 60p in a 60p timeline looks too fast for natural motion. So what frame rate do i shoot in if i want the option of both natural motion or slow motion? From what i gather that you're telling me is that there are no options.

I'm kind of confused because let's say in post i have a shot filmed at 30fps that i want to be in slow motion, well it's not do-able.

So if that same shot was shot at 60p and i wanted it slowed down it could obviously be conformed to 30p. But if this same shot that i shot at 60p was something that i wanted to leave at regular speed i couldn't use it cause it would look too fast?

What do i do if i want the option of having a clip playback at regular speed or slow motion? Or is there simply no way of shooting at one frame rate for the option of regular and slowmotion speed?
Nov 21 2010 5:28PM
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alexFUNPOW
Posts: 128 - Karma: 138
if your using FCP as your editing program, you can create mixed frame rate sequences. that way you can use footage shot in 24p, 30p, 60i, or 60p all within the same sequence.

and with most cameras, especially for HDDSLR, it takes 2 seconds to switch between your frame rates. so why would you stay at 60p and do all the extra work in post to get the "look" of 24p (which it actually doesn't look nearly as good).

making good footage takes time, so take the extra two seconds to switch frame rates.

but getting back to the tips for filming that doesn't have to do with frame rate:

1. invest in a set of ND filters and a polarizer. nd3, nd6 and nd9 should do the trick. these will help out with those super sunny days, get that nice shallow DOF when it's super bright.

2. don't buy shitty lenses. that would be like buying the best skis in the world with a pair of 1970's bindings. save up and invest! B&H photo usually has great used lenses

3. the easiest thing that most people forget. clean your fucking lens! it's not good to consistently wipe and clean lenses (there are coating's that will be removed with too much cleaning that will affect the image) but dirty lenses or spots that spike light look like shit.

4. learn some basic color correcting skills. when filming set your white balance (5600k for daylight, 3200k for tungsten/most indoors) and do the rest in post. some great color correcting tutorials online and this will make your footy look way better!

5. test your footage! i couldn't tell you how many film shoots i've worked on (mostly non ski related but still...) that could have looked much better if the DP's had done test. this helps in the long run and makes post that much easier. try some different lens options, different frame rates, shutter speeds. etc... See what looks best in certain situations

6. if using an HDDSLR, invest in good memory card. shitty cards will cut out and stop recording at times cause they can't save all the info as fast as your recording (deff if at 60p). would suck to miss the best shot of the day

have fun!
Nov 21 2010 5:36PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
I understand all of this. Basically what i'm asking is how do you shoot something so that you have the option of taking a clip played back at normal speed, making a portion of that clip slowed down, and then ramping back to normal speed.

Nov 21 2010 5:45PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
There is no single framerate that works for all situations. Shoot it in the framerate you want it to be. Shoot 24p for 24p, 30p for 30p, and 60p for 60p. It's that simple. Sure you could shoot 60p all the time, but your footage will suffer greatly.

When you conform footage to 24p, it basically tells the computer to read and play it back as 24p. So if you take 60p conformed to 24p, and try to put it in a 24p timeline, you won't have any issues because as far as the computer is concerned, the clip is 24p.

Really, this is camera tech 101. I can't help but feel like you really don't understand.
Nov 21 2010 6:11PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
Trust me, i understand. I guess i made my question too unclear. What i'm trying to get at is what frame rate are clips shot in that you see in films where the motion is at regular speed and natural, then slowed down, then ramped back up to normal speed?
Nov 21 2010 6:51PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
One method you can use is you can physically turn the frame rate knob during the sequence to change the frame rate in-camera.

Other than that, I would assume you could film in 60p, splice the clips where you want the speed to change, then convert the regular speed sections to 24p, and conform the slow motion segment to 24p. However, converting 60p to 24p is problematic from what I've heard.
Nov 21 2010 7:11PM
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alexFUNPOW
Posts: 128 - Karma: 138
you have two options

ONE
* get the Nattress filter. It allows you to drop 60p to 24p. Don't use cine tools it degrades way to much.
*keep a copy of the original in 60p
*use both files in a mixed timeline in FCP, just splice together at the same time

TWO
* create a 24p timeline in FCP, drop you 60p files in the timeline and they will play in 24p. drop it in again but ask FCP to play at 60p. slice together
Nov 21 2010 7:30PM
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ILoveOhio
Posts: 1793 - Karma: 253
No.  The key is to not buy a fisheye with vig.  When I film fisheye, I leave OIS on because there's no vig.
Nov 22 2010 9:40AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
If you're going to use fisheye, please for gods sake don't ever touch the record button.
Nov 22 2010 1:41PM
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B.Snow
Posts: 1859 - Karma: 92
I'm getting a 0.7x wide angle or maybe 0.6x... nothing wider than that
Nov 22 2010 4:06PM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,060
All of my 60p in normal motion look fine? when it exports it switches everything to 30p anyway? after exporting for internet, its all at 30fps? unless you specify. my 30p footage and 60p footage looks the same after exported.
Nov 22 2010 4:18PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
That's probably because FCP is dropping the spare frames to make it 30p (assuming you're working in 29.97 rather than 59.97), and even then, I can spot it from a mile away. Not sure why you are exporting to 30p for the internet though...
Nov 22 2010 4:25PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
a lot of people who are really nitpicky say that you can tell when something has been conformed to 30p (or 24p) and wasn't really natively shot like that. I'm sure there is a difference, but I can't tell and I'm sure most people don't notice and don't care.

i will say though that 60p played back at 60p is a little too smooth for me. really has that home video feel, even if you're shooting on a higher end camera. but once it's exported to 30p or 24p, it looks fine to me.
Nov 22 2010 4:25PM
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WillStart
Posts: 3955 - Karma: 3,192
what frame rate would you recommend for internet? 24? i always assumed the internet was 30p, but i exported to 24p anyways..
Nov 22 2010 4:27PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
I feel like 60p played back at 30p also has that soap-opera 60i look to it, which is why I always recommend doing everything in 24p because it is the only frame rate that looks even remotely natural.

I use 24p for all internet videos because it works flawlessly in Vimeo, so there is no need to use 30p.
Nov 22 2010 4:29PM
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eheath
Posts: 61090 - Karma: 118,060
Nope. I use 720p60p dvcprohd timeline, export full quality and compress in quicktime pro and i think i usually do frame rate "current" so i guess its 60? but it looks just like any other 30fps?
Nov 22 2010 4:29PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
That would explain it. your videos are in 60p playback! I can tell the difference between 60p and 30p playback, albeit very similar.

I've found that the most film-like (natural) motion is achieved by working in 23.98 fps and conforming everything to that prior to even opening FCP. It's a night and day difference and its faster to edit.
Nov 22 2010 4:32PM
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