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My 2002 WRX to EJ257 Swap!

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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Alright so this is somewhat of a /claim thread, and also I know a lot of people on here are interested in Subaru's and WRX/STi's and all that good stuff.  This is what is known on most auto forums as a "Build Thread"

Basically a couple of months ago my A/C Idler pulley failed while I was driving...it ended up seizing, snapping off and shredding in to my timing belt cover.  This caused my belt to shred, skip teeth and then my pistons hit all of my valves.  Nothing like catastrophic engine failure in your beloved car to end your summer.

So, where does that leave us?  Decided that I was going to do what is known as a Hybrid swap.  I am getting pretty proficient with engines, and decided this would be my best bet.  So, I contacted Ron at Raw Performance in St. Louis and using my old 2.0L EJ20 WRX heads he built me a longblock containing a EJ257 2.5L STi shortblock.  So essentially I am running an STi engine with no AVCS and a slightly smaller head combustion chamber.  This is remedied though by an increase in compression ratio.

Well I just got the car back, and it is FAST!  It pulls hard, despite only having mostly stock WRX parts.  Right now I am probably pushing about 325-350 bhp, once I get done breaking in my new engine and do some OpenSource Tuning and see where I am at.  Below are my current mods and future mods, as well as my long term goals:

Hybrid EJ257/EJ205 Head Swap with +1mm Oversized Valves
Lightened Unorthodox Racing Pulley
Iridium Plugs
Cobb Downpipe
Borla Hush Catback Exhuast
Grimmspeed Ceramic Coated Catless Uppipe
Snorkus Delete and Modded Intake
Grimmspeed Thermometer
Opensource Tuning with Wideband O2


To Do:
Fuel Injectors
Walbro Fuel Pump
Blouch 18G-TD05 8cm^2
Grimmspeed EBCS
Tranny Cooler
Valvebody Modification
Front Mount Intercooler
TGV Deletes
Phenolic Spacers

Target Power:  350 whp(450-475 bhp)/330 wtq

Currently saving up for Injectors, Fuel Pump, EBCS, VF39 and that will hold me off until the Blouch 18G, which is a pretty big turbo and will really up the power.

So without further ado, some pictures for anyone who is interested:
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Needs cleaning haha...

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Notice the shiny block and timing belt cover!

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Tuning and logging OpenSource with ECUFlash and RomRaider.

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Old engine, going to be split and rebuilt.  I will then swap this shortblock in to a GC8 (1999-2001 RS) body and turn it in to a track car.

Anyway if anyone has any thoughts, suggestions or comments feel free to post!  Hope you enjoy and I will keep this thread updated as I continue the build!
Oct 14 2009 11:17PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Couple things here.  I said the Auto is stronger than the 5 speed WRX transmission.  They also have a better AWD system than the STi because it isn't controlled by viscous fluids.  Nowhere did I say that it is stronger than the STi 6 speed Manual.

It is proven that FMIC create THROTTLE lag.  Not Turbo lag.  The throttle lag is because a larger volume of air has to be moved through the piping before the turbo spools.  However, it will still spool at 3500 or 3900 or whatever RPM.  You don't lose any time on the actual spool of the Turbo, just on the throttle response.

Yes the 18G will have lag, I said that and agree.

I have a TMIC.  I have been in many cars with a FMIC, I know the feeling.

You don't have much greater flow in the Equal length headers.  Flow is entirely determined by piping and porting and polishing.  The Equal length headers have more piping and more bends, so it won't increase flow.  It does however get rid of pulse dynamics, which is what creates the boxer rumble, and causes a loss of power.

Yes Auto's have less potential on a drag strip, however, they have a better AWD system so it is a give or take.  I said previously I want a Manual I just can't afford it right now, so I will work with what I have.  Plus I enjoy the better AWD system in the snow.
Dec 2 2009 1:25PM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
and untill you have built a car, and put the mods that u explain to ppl like that a 18 g wont have lag with a fmic.. u wont know.. judging by ur car its basically like a simple 2.5 stage 2 in a 02 wrx.... u learn parts thru experience with them..
Dec 2 2009 1:27PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
You just don't get it, yes it is my first build car but you act like I have never worked on a car before or ridden in a modded Subaru.  Jesus christ get off my nuts.

And fucking look it up, a FMIC lag is due to throttle lag.  There is a difference between turbo lag and throttle lag.

I don't care to argue about it anymore.  You did it your way, I am doing it mine.  If you think I don't know shit, then I don't care.
Dec 2 2009 1:31PM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
u sure know alot for not being a thread junky.
Dec 2 2009 1:32PM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
why do u not have an intake
Dec 2 2009 1:34PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Because the stock airbox with a snorkus delete and a high flow air filter is good up until 400 whp.  It is actually one of the best designed parts on the EJ engine.  I am saving up for a turbo inlet, but once again, you seem to think I am made of $$$ like you and I have it modded to suck in cold air from the fender.

And I would rather be a "thread junkie" and spend my time actually researching stuff (there are other places to get information other than NASIOC ya know) and know the difference between turbo lag and throttle lag...
Dec 2 2009 1:36PM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
lmao. ya i didnt know the difference between the two..
alotta shit in threads are wrong thats why im saying this.. threads are very misleading
your inlet tube is definally a restriction.. do not buy a silicone one....mine collapses (came with car)
and how quiet is ur hush with ur dp with ur stock airbox?
Dec 2 2009 1:42PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
The stock airbox isn't as bad now that I removed the snorkus and modded it to make it have a bigger inlet and suck air in to the fender.  Right now even though it is restrictive there are more pressing flow restrictions to deal with.  The airbox will be fine up to my desired 350 whp for now and I can replace the inlet when I am getting more cash soon.

The hush is pretty quiet.  It actually sounded much better when I had the 2.0 in than it does now.  I am not really sure why.   I haven't figured that one out yet.  Either way it is pretty quiet and a pretty low sound, I like it a lot better than most fart cans.  They are expensive though, unfortunately.
Dec 2 2009 1:47PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
wow. you have an auto. they may be faster but they offer a completely detached driving experience, and thats what its all about.

and i know you have been over this but fmic loose SOOO much power and 1,2 pounds of boost
Dec 2 2009 2:11PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
If they lose so much power than why does every car going for huge HP use one?  They don't lose power, they introduce throttle lag in to the system.  They have superior cooling, so they actually gain power.

And yes it is a detached driving experience, I got that.  Like I said, I could find one in a manual at the time and I am going to do a 6 speed manual swap.  I have said that like 50 times, so I don't get what the big deal is.
Dec 2 2009 2:30PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
fair enough, i didnt read that

fmic are proven to loose power. everyone uses them because, well they are cooler, in both senses of the word. big turbos create a LOT of heat. a fmic has that much more air flow and thous cooling power. the huge amount of piping reduces the amount of boost you are able to produce because of the extra distance it has to travel.
Dec 2 2009 3:17PM
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sTr8_JiBbiN
Posts: 494 - Karma: 43
good plan
Dec 2 2009 3:21PM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 269
woah its ken block! can i have your autograph?
Dec 2 2009 3:27PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
i had a 18G on the waggy a while ago, it was FUN as hell. the lag wasnt too bad, it was more than stock but i didnt mind. it pulled really hard though once i hit boost.

idk wtf you guys are talking about that front mounts are bad, have either of you guys had a car with one? it doesnt induce turbo lag unless your running it on a stock setup.

as for the stock intake, its better than any aftermarket intake out there until you surpass a certain amount of hp. Subaru designed it perfectly.

GLrunner, props on doing this swap man, my buddy and i swapped out the motor on his 04 wrx twice because it blew up and it was a fucking major pain in the ass, everything that could have went wrong during the swap happened. how did you get the headbolts off? we had to use like a 8ft breaker bar haha, then his uncle brought out this little impact gun (like the mosquito gun in men in black) thing sounded like a race car lol. took those bolts right out after hours of us trying to take it apart.
Dec 2 2009 4:00PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
im so glad you got yourself into this. from your first 4 lines you have proven yourself an idiot.

OBVIOUSLY the lag is more on a 18g then stock. its 3 times bigger!
Yes, i drive a car with one on a regular basis. It has a turbo that is capable of  500whp tuned down to 400 with 26psi. I can tell a difference. with a top mount it would spool quicker, thats a fact.

Nether of us are saying FMIC are bad, at all. they increase turbo lag. cool.


Dec 2 2009 4:30PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
They still don't lose power.  The large amount of air flow isn't what gives the power, it is the location of the IC and how much cooling it does to provide more dense air to the engine.  Yes you will lose boost because there is more space, but you are still flowing the same cfm of air so you get the same power.  Boost is a relative term to the turbo and in actuality the amount of air the turbo is pushing is what gives the power.  I know big turbos produce a lot of heat, that is why the TMIC can have issues.  A TMIC in practice is better than a FMIC if it can get proper air flow, however, because of its location to the turbo there are heatsink issues which cause power loss from the decreased air density.  All lag is from the throttle, not the turbo.

Anyway it is pointless, I live in a cold climate so I am going with a TMIC.

Vincepru, had 2 people and a breaker bar.  Luckily enough we got them out.  I am not really sure how I think I nearly tore some muscles in the process haha...next time I will have another friend help who has an impact gun.  Luckily haven't had too many problems with the swap yet.

I am interested to see how it performs with the future upgrades.  It isn't technically a full EJ257 because it has my EJ205 WRX heads on it that have been ported and polished and have oversized valves, so they are basically just as good.  They lose some power high end because I am not running AVCS and haven't changed out the cams yet.  For now though they are perfect for what I need.

However, because of the EJ205 heads there is a smaller combustion chamber and so I am using a Cometic head gasket to alleviate some of this.  This limits me to 18.5 pounds of boost, which isn't a problem with a big turbo.  On top of that my compression ratio is 8.5:1 which is .3 higher than the STi compression ratio of 8.2:1.  This means I can get more power out of the same boost as the STi, but I am more prone to knocking and detonation so it will be interesting to see how it turns out when I am doing Opensource tuning and logging.
Dec 2 2009 4:31PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
No! Haha that isn't right, sorry.  They do not increase turbo lag, just throttle lag.   It takes longer to move the volume of air and pressurize it which causes lag in the throttle response, but the Turbo will still spool up at the same RPM and so there is not Turbo lag, just Throttle lag.
Dec 2 2009 4:33PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
GOD DAMMIT!  This isnt debatable, its proven, its not hard to understand either. Im not saying this shit to look for a e-figh, im saying it because it is black and white...

fmic=more piping=more air to make the entire trip from intake to turbo to intercooler to intake manifold

tmic=hardly any piping=same process as the fmic, just a 10th the distance.

farther distance=longer the air takes, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
Dec 2 2009 4:42PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Right, and I'm saying stop calling it turbo lag.  Turbo lag is the rpm it takes the turbo to spool up at.  Throttle lag is the physical time it takes to get the Turbo there depending on piping and air flow.

Intercoolers affect throttle lag, not turbo lag.
Dec 2 2009 4:46PM
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salomonskiier12
Posts: 2862 - Karma: 19
how do you learn the beasics about all that stuff. I would love to get into it, but I dont want to mess up or anything.
Dec 2 2009 4:54PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
cool, here is what im building at home, its my buddies car that weve been working on for a year.

Click for larger image as far as i know, being able to run 11's with a basic street tune for now is pretty damn good. so go ahead. continue to call me an idiot.

what kind of car are you pushing 400whp out of?
Dec 2 2009 4:54PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Research hours on end and experience working on engines.  I know people say NASIOC sucks, but if you stick to the Unabombers Manifesto (look it up) as well as the other FAQs you can get a good basis of knowledge to build from.
Dec 2 2009 4:56PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
yes. i love lag
Dec 2 2009 4:58PM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
best part of owning a turbocharged vehicle
Dec 2 2009 5:54PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
i know GLrunner13 has seen me whore this out 9000 times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QChvCRX6lCM
Dec 2 2009 8:47PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
nice man! thats a good lookin sti. i was gonna say more, but im in class and multitasking is owning my brain right now.
Dec 2 2009 8:57PM
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hartig
Posts: 8192 - Karma: 10
this thread sucks nuts

nice car though
Dec 2 2009 9:42PM
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A.0.spin
Posts: 472 - Karma: 186
^^ nice car

08 wrx here. what is a snorkus delete? do any of you have a link on info? I haven't touched the motor past a downpipe,catback, and cobb stage 2. I don't really plan on crazy hp so this airbox modification interests me as long as its safe with the cobb stage 2 map. right now im saving for suspension and brake mods so not planning on spending a lot of money.

What I do want are a set of the gold 05 sti wheels. Any ideas on where to find these?
Dec 2 2009 10:04PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
just type snorkel delete in google. its the part of your intake that goes into the fender. its restrictive.
Dec 2 2009 10:13PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
The 08 doesn't have a snorkus/silencer in it.  The STi in 2008 did, but they left it out of the WRX, not really sure why.  It doesn't do much but it removes restriction in to your air intake and it allows you to hear the engine better.  Some say it makes a difference, some say it doesn't, but its free so why not if you want to do it.

Cobb stage 2 is ok, but if you are good with a computer at all you are wasting your money.  Sell the Cobb, by a Tactrix cable and buy an OTS map from somewhere like XPT and reflash your ECU with your laptop.  That will net you about $250 which you can use on other things and it is a more aggressive tune than the Cobbs.

Gold 05 STi wheels you can find on NASIOC usually, that is the best place.  Look for part out threads.  Be warned they are hard to come by and go quickly, they are also expensive.  Not sure if they have the same dimensions as the 08 WRX because it is a different body style, you will have to look it up.
Dec 2 2009 10:16PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
actually i lie, i dont think its restrictive. its just for silencing
Dec 2 2009 10:19PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
yeah dude sti wheels are $$ just buy some rotas so that way if you fuck one up on a pothole you dont have to worry about loosing too much money
Dec 2 2009 10:24PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
It's a little restrictive in the sense that there is more area for the air to travel.  However, the ram helps a bit.  Overall it isn't much of an upgrade it is more preference.  The other problem is if you have it rigged to go in to the fender wall you have to be careful of puddles splashing up.

Either way he doesn't have one in his 08 so he doesn't have to worry about it haha.
Dec 2 2009 10:24PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
$800-1000 a wheel new or something like that, ridiculous.
Dec 2 2009 10:25PM
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RICK_ROSS
Posts: 6983 - Karma: 3,342
your bolt pattern is 5 x 100. the wheels will fit on a 08. they dont change it for the wrx's. just the sti
fyi: there made by bbs and you can get some pretty cheap sets here
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=152

i would like to have some bbs's but im gonna go illest.


Dec 2 2009 10:56PM
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A.0.spin
Posts: 472 - Karma: 186
im moderately with it when it comes to computers...

I work as an engineer so I feel I have a pretty good handle on mechanical systems as well. The thing is I am not quite sure on where to start when it comes to open source tuning. Does it not require a dyno? isn't it more reliable to get a pro tune? Do you have any helpful links where I could read up on it. I have read unabombers manifesto and didn't really get much out of the tuning FAQ. I wouldn't require a new basemap unless I modified the engine more so it will be a while before that happens.
Dec 3 2009 11:39AM
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DANETRON
Posts: 6671 - Karma: 137
Hahaha I figured a build thread on NS would go just like this one has with a huge argument about something
Dec 3 2009 11:52AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
A stage 2 opensource map will be much better than a Cobb tune because they make them a little more aggressive and run less rich.  Cobb is very very conservative in their maps.  For opensource, you can either start learning yourself, or you can buy maps from companies that have OTS maps for around $50.  A good company for that is XPT.  You can also pay someone like XPT to remote tune your car, where you get logs and send them to them and they tune off of your logs, rinse and repeat. 

If you want to actually get in to tuning yourself, a good place to start is by reading the "Tuning Guide" found here: http://web.njit.edu/~trb2/WRX/download/

With Opensource tuning you can log certain parameters and then plug them in to Airboy's Road Dyno Spreadsheet, which will give you the torque curve and HP numbers to within 10-15% of what they actually are.  It isn't incredibly accurate but it is a nice way to get an idea of what you are pushing.

A protune is probably the best way to get tuned, but only if it is by a reputable person who knows what they are doing.  They can do exactly what you want while running it on a dyno to give your exact torque and HP numbers.  Be warned though, Dyno's are never really right.  Dynopacks and Dynojets run high and Mustang dynos run low.  Either way, if you can find a reputable shop to do this for you then it is the best method.  However, you can expect to pay up to anywhere around $400 for an hour on the dyno to get a pro tune.

CN:  Cobb AP is an ok started tune, but the AP is very expensive.  If you aren't very good with computers, then the AP is the way to go.  Opensource is a little more involved and complicated, but you can learn to tune yourself or find shops that will do it for you and get you a better tune for your car.  Standard maps for an Opensource tune are better than Cobb maps.  Protune is the best, but very costly, most people prefer to get a protune after they are done modding to save costs, and use a Cobb AP or Opensource to tune intermittently throughout the process.
Dec 3 2009 11:59AM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
my friends rota's broke and i know others who have had them break. sketchy

thumbs up on open source i had a xpt race stage 3 on my wagon open source rules

cobbs tunes are weaaaaak.. they definally dont unload the full potential of your car.. there conservitave and with the money u pay for the programmer and maps u can get a good tune through a tune shop or a open source. but if u plan on going thru stages in one summer.. i guess its the way to go..
Dec 3 2009 12:20PM
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bigolrig
Posts: 572 - Karma: 14
NIce!
I have a built motor in my 02 wagon and I'm planning on a hta68, walbro, FMIC ( Most likey a SSAC because im broke), modded stock injectors to 740's and possibly 272's.

What are your names on NASIOC?
Mine is the same on here
Dec 3 2009 5:59PM
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brokebutitsworthit
Posts: 2279 - Karma: 27
true, I wouldn't bother going that big as they are impractical to drive.  Its like okay, I am going to aim in this straight line, get on the throttle, let off turn, aim again go in a straight line....repeat.  I wouldn't totally rule out going rotated though, it's really not that much more once you balance everything out. 
Dec 3 2009 6:28PM
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brokebutitsworthit
Posts: 2279 - Karma: 27
woot airboy lives here, I am considering getting him to tune my car woot woot.  I will be rolling out to van this summer though, so nipping up to Squamish to talk with Pat Richards at Rocket Rally may change things, depending on my $ situation though.
Dec 3 2009 6:35PM
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vincepru
Posts: 5474 - Karma: 17
just think of it this way. would you rather have a broken rota that is worth 200$ or would you rather have a bent volk or work rim and have to pay 800$.

esp for daily driving i would never spend more than what i would pay for rotas on after market wheels. atleast in ohio, the roads are shitty as hell.
Dec 3 2009 7:42PM
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brokebutitsworthit
Posts: 2279 - Karma: 27
I'd rather drive carefully and not have rims that are known to fail on me, nobody wants the hassle of being stuck because they bent a rim on a pothole, and I have seen pictures of Rotas that have exploded  at high speed.  That, and if you're buying rims generally it is to show off, buying rotas is being like look at me I am a cheap ass who buys copies of nice rims. 
Dec 3 2009 10:03PM
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Static
Posts: 8494 - Karma: 4,068
My AC idler pulley just seized, broke into the timing cover shield. thank god it didn't get too far in there, scary to think what could have happened. To other impreza owners, just replace the damn thing when you do your timing belt.
Feb 21 2010 5:35AM
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Inbred_Redneck
Posts: 2776 - Karma: 28
Your last comment is totally wrong. You look at most dedicated drag cars and they all have automatic trannys. Unlike a manual, you have less chance of missing a shift, plus you get the shifts you want, when you want all the time. All you have to do is tune the computer.

Auto pwns manual on the dragstrip. End of story.
Feb 21 2010 8:18AM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
yeah cuz you can launch a stock tranny? without any work to the tourque converter?
most 10 second and under drag cars have power glide auto tranny's

last i knew u couldnt launch a standard auto... ive been doing this for 4 years, i must be wrong?
Feb 21 2010 10:36AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 65
actually, i think you can
i've seen people step on the break real hard while pushing in the gas, then letting go of the break. its terrible for your car

i also know the the BMW SMG tranny can be launched, and that it will actually limit you to one launch per like 15 minutes, and that 30 launches and your clutch is finished. but the smg is not really automatic or manual
Feb 21 2010 12:55PM
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powday
Posts: 3055 - Karma: 326
So your car is an Auto? Dang, for a second I thought this thread was legit.
Feb 21 2010 1:06PM
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powday
Posts: 3055 - Karma: 326
hahah, gotta love you inbreed rednecks who drive lame ass autos. Even if they might be faster (which I highly doubt) its all about having that clutch skill and the ability to hit shifts perfectly, its a part of driving. (not letting a bitch ass computer tell your car when to shift) If you drag an automatic I will laugh at your face and pretty much disregard you as if you were dirt.

Automatics fucking suck, I hate everyone who has a performance car in Automatic. You pretty much just wasted an engine if you buy an Auto. How the fuck can you have fun driving without the ability to rev-match around corners? I could'nt even imagine having my car shift when I don't want it to..... I learned to drive on manuals and will always own a manual. Fuck automatics, makes america look like shit because we are the only country with a majority of autos on the road....its sad :(
Feb 21 2010 1:16PM
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