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For those that have trouble with religion

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Kcin
Posts: 1845 - Karma: 57

Let me add to that trouble. I personally strugle to believe in a God but I have a very arguable point I believe would be worth reading.

Ever since I was little my parents have instilled good moral values in me just like all parents do. This obviously is to make sure I turn out to be a good person and to make good decisions. But I started to question the origin of these so called "morals." Who instilled these morals in our parents? In our parent's parents? And so fourth. When it comes down to it why do we do whats right more often then not if we have no belief and supernatural punishment? When you do something bad or evil you generally feel bad about doing it even if you dont tell anyone about the incident. This guilt we feel stems from what our parents or gaurdians taught us at early ages, but why does an atheist or for that matter anyone who doesnt believe in God feel bad about something if they wont be punished in another life or by an external force?

Im sorry for this rant I just find it an interesting way to look at things. Please dont hate I'm not trying to provoke or hurt anyone.

May 21 2009 4:04PM
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SKIDUBAIGUY
Posts: 3018 - Karma: 8
Because your hurting other people for your own benefit, its partly the guilt from what your doing to other people and party being scared, knowing that they could retaliate and hurt you on behalf of what you have done.
May 21 2009 4:08PM
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kepler.
Posts: 8761 - Karma: 139
Because religion has nothing to do with human morals. That's just religious people telling you that only people with religion can have morals.

Society creates morals today, not religion. Sure maybe it was necessary a long time ago, but not today.

Maybe it's even instinct, who knows.
May 21 2009 4:08PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
i'm an atheist.

i don't feel bad about anything i do.
May 21 2009 4:08PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
i forgot to add that i do sometimes pretend to feel bad.
i mean, nobody would like me if i acted the same way i feel.
May 21 2009 4:16PM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
morality is not something religion has created, you can almost say that it is biologically instilled in us. think about this, a school of blood thirsty piranhas are hunting for food, what stops them from eating the shit out of eachother? do animals believe in god? no.

do you honestly believe that you do good things because you'll be rewarded by some power after you die? is that what consciously goes through your mind when you share a piece of food? the reason why people do good is not because of religion, its because doing good makes you feel good. your brain reacts a certain way, and even releases seratonin when you do good deeds, and this is what drives some people to spend their lifetime helping the poor. its that constant feeling of goodness they strive for, and they are willing to give up their time and money for it.

vice versa, hurting a fellow friend or neighbour is bad because you feel bad after. you injure your relationship with another human being, you have that feeling of disconnection and loneliness. your brain reacts a certain way, and eventually you feel like shit. and feeling like shit is what we all wanna avoid. doing bad also disrupts the flow of society and even threatens your own survival.
May 21 2009 4:25PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 170
I dont believe in god and i frequently go on murderous rampages.
May 21 2009 4:47PM
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InkShrink
Posts: 1079 - Karma: 30
It's kinda like the nature vs nurture debate. Our morals stem from both biological perspectives as well as cultural norms. How we are raised and where we are raised both highly influence a persons's moral beliefs. Doing good makes you feel good, simple as that.
May 21 2009 7:52PM
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neutralzombie
Posts: 8629 - Karma: 606
i was raised by most of the ten comandments, and there in my kitchen, but i was raised atheist, also. give and take selective information, like all people do anyways.
May 21 2009 7:59PM
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PeteyG
Posts: 2946 - Karma: 49
Its cuz God wrote his law in your heart, however wierd that sounds. But i mean, it doesnt make sense for evolution to cause you to have guilt. Feelings in general. Its natural law. It started from day 1 and was passed through the generations.
May 21 2009 8:06PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Altruism is a genetic trait that has shown to increase the fitness of social animals, eg, compassion and helpful behavior can, over time, allow a species to survive longer. Our sense of morality and right and wrong is totally an evolved concept.
May 21 2009 8:17PM
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easy_cam_steezy
Posts: 1203 - Karma: 126
karma is not a religion

im not an atheist, but on the flipside, I don't really believe in a all-powerful god or anything like that

I do believe in Karma
May 21 2009 8:18PM
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PeteyG
Posts: 2946 - Karma: 49
Of course it will allow a species to survive longer. Thats common sense dude. If i piss off a dude in compton he will shoot me. And yes, genetics is the human body but evolution did not put it there by chance. Someone had to have put that there.
May 21 2009 8:21PM
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Arabian.
Posts: 9632 - Karma: 54

This is an exact replica of the argument in Plato's Gyges' Ring story.

Look at morals from a traditional instinctual and biological perspective and you get the answer to how we got them in the first place. Should we kill babies or other people? No, because our goal as a species is to reproduce and survive as long as possible. Why no theft? because you are inhibiting others' means of survival, Why should we respect our elders? Because our goal to pass along our genes would be ill-fated if we could not teach our children common knowledge passed down by our tribes. We're nothing more than cavement with iPods, still fighting over territory, our own well--being and breeding opportunities.

May 21 2009 8:22PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Please help me understand what the fuck you are trying to say here.
May 21 2009 8:25PM
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jayo.
Posts: 5015 - Karma: 34
word? me too. what a strange coincidence
May 21 2009 8:25PM
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thelizards
Posts: 4042 - Karma: 43
don't be good for god, be good for goodness sake, because their is no god
May 21 2009 8:26PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
bullshit
May 21 2009 8:32PM
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nickyp
Posts: 5673 - Karma: 215
+k
May 21 2009 8:38PM
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Chickendodo
Posts: 1426 - Karma: 33
Satanism is technically a religion.  Satanism promotes hurting others and doing just plain bad things.  But you're saying that religion instills these 'morals' in all humans, when in actuality its just human nature and chemicals in the brain bein' like 'yo, don't do dat.'

Serial killers can be religious too... doesn't mean they have morals.  Religion =/= Morals.
May 21 2009 9:43PM
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Big.L
Posts: 703 - Karma: 15
i look at religion as sort of a cult. you belong to a church, you go and listen and pray to them and give your church money (some don't) and they promise when you die you will go to heaven (sort of an ultimate paradise) why is what they say right though? how do they know youll go to heaven, or that there even is a heaven. i find it hard to believe when you die you go to a magical place in the sky. how do they know your energy doesnt just stay in your body. I think the idea of religion was made so people would feel they have a reason to live.

dont hate by the way im just bored at school talking about stuff ive been thinking about haha
Mar 4 2010 1:21PM
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blavallee4
Posts: 360 - Karma: 93
GO SKI OR SOMTHING
Mar 4 2010 1:29PM
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Mykel
Posts: 1560 - Karma: 84
Humans have evolved to a point where they can see the effects and indirect effects of their actions. Non sentient creatures don't have the intellect to comprehend the idea that their negative actions towards others will result in subsequent negative responses towards themselves. For us, it is a simple concept. If we treat people poorly then we will be looked down upon and treated poorly ourselves. That is the basis of morals. Morals define the way we, as an evolved species, should act in order to live in a happy and harmonious society (no homo).
Mar 4 2010 2:08PM
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TechnoPotamus
Posts: 11626 - Karma: 3,522
likewise, it's no big deal. pretty standard day's activities for me right there
Mar 4 2010 2:14PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
LoL at people who think Atheism = not believing in God.
Mar 4 2010 2:16PM
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Ski_The_East10
Posts: 582 - Karma: 3
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.

-Abe Lincoln
Mar 4 2010 2:38PM
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Ski_The_East10
Posts: 582 - Karma: 3
the definition of atheism is taking the position that there are no dieties..
Mar 4 2010 2:50PM
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1337
Posts: 31038 - Karma: 29,003
bingo
Mar 4 2010 2:56PM
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Username_42069
Posts: 1591 - Karma: 15
ITS ALL RELATIVE!
Mar 4 2010 3:00PM
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remove
Posts: 2566 - Karma: 1,026

is it wrong to be lutheran and just not care?

honestly..... Just stop caring and all the problems slowly go away. Fat, Drunk, and stupid is exactly the way to go through life

Mar 4 2010 3:08PM
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SteezeBall
Posts: 350 - Karma: 12
this made me chuckle
Mar 4 2010 3:42PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.
Mar 4 2010 3:43PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
Christopher Hitchen's makes a good point when he explains how moses led the exodus to mt. sinai, where he received the ten commandments, the supposed basis of jewish/christian religions, and how during this exodus the people did not tear each other apart. Morals are instilled in us, as without morals, or perhaps more appropriately a kind of, human instinct, we would tear each other apart. Civilization is way older than any contemporary religion, and this pretty much proves that some sort of morals are needed for a functioning society, and that they are natural and do not come from a higher being.
Mar 4 2010 3:45PM
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rockjumper
Posts: 496 - Karma: 13
wow this thread is almost a year old and that ass fuck six6six hasn't ruined it.
Mar 4 2010 5:08PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Uh? Where did you find that?

Abe Lincoln had a stern belief in god and that believed the entire Civil War he was doing his part but god ultimately had a plan and if the South won, that would be god's plan.

Read his second inaugural address and the Gettysburg Address. Both saturated with references to god.
Mar 4 2010 5:54PM
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Thenowhereman42
Posts: 5682 - Karma: 65
I have a personal moral code that generally doesn't correspond with the moral code put forth by various religions?
Mar 4 2010 6:06PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i really think that a big part of our daily routine has cultural roots. just look at chimpanzees (our closest relatives) and how they live. so i think we went waay beyond our "natural" capabilities and added another dimension to it.

religion has a lot to do with it, yes. maybe our reason of existence is to create enough weapons to destroy our planet (with gods bettin when it will happen) or we are just there to increase the universes intelligence. maybe were just a small piece of glass that some random-ass alien juggles with and it doesnt matter what we do and any of our rules are senseless (Men in black).


i for myself think that our species is extremely overrated. we are just one tiny dot in the universe and in the overall picture, were probably just dumb jellyfishes in relation to others. so i feel like nothing we do is of real importance and we just should assure that we dont harm anybody with our actions.

its pretty much the golden rule (which is found in nearly all big religions): "do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him". for me, that is the only real "guideline" for our actions. but again, in the overall picture, i guess noone would care if a nuclear war destroys our planet tomorrow. nor would someone care if the whole universe implodes the day after tomorrow (ZOMG).
Mar 4 2010 6:09PM
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CrunkNugget
Posts: 1279 - Karma: 16
you my friend...




are fucking stupid
Mar 4 2010 6:13PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
religion is the opiate of the masses
Mar 4 2010 6:14PM
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Biggie-Smalls
Posts: 259 - Karma: 10
Go Jesus your an OG because when the first humans developed free thought the first questions are why, when we realize how mind blowing that question we need to create a reason to live and give us hope that the evils we encounter can not harm our souls if we live pure
Mar 4 2010 6:14PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
marx right there
Mar 4 2010 6:17PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
the only statement by marx that i would tend to agree with
Mar 4 2010 6:20PM
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antwone
Posts: 1352 - Karma: 157
THREADS FOR THE LULZ
Mar 4 2010 6:24PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i dont know too much of him, but i certainly know that his thoughts were misused for political reasons and if you forget about left or right, he has some true words
Mar 4 2010 6:30PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
yea i agree that the political ramifications are more dramatic than even Marx envisioned. the problem with Marx is that he is more of an idealist than a realist. it is literally impossible to ever create a perfect utopian society. i also just don't agree with collectivism in principle.
Mar 4 2010 6:48PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
yaaa 10 page thread
Mar 4 2010 7:00PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Martin Luther King Jr was an idealist if you ask the people of the 19th century. As was Sir Isaac Newton and his Law of Gravity. Or Capernicus. I could go on. Every philosopher is an "idealist" until their writings start to hold truth. If you asked the people of Paris in 1781 they would laugh at you for calling Marx and "idealist". His thoughts were very real to them.

I am going to argue that the problem isn't with Marx. It is with your understanding of his writing. Obviously his writings aren't perfect. Adam Smith had great writings in his Theory of Moral Sentiments, but his writings are nowhere near perfect and we live in a country almost directly confined to his school of thought.

I will actually tie this into religion because you and I have both had such a narrow narrow view of history. We will never understand what it was like to live or share the same ambiguous term of "morals" if you will, with the communal beginning stages of humanity. As seen, these morals have been evolved and changed over a longstanding amount of time. Generally correlated to our economic advancement, our morals tend to have been dismayed.
Mar 4 2010 7:13PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
1871* my bad
Mar 4 2010 7:14PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
Yes I agree that King Jr., Newton, Copernicus etc. were idealist for their times but these examples are only the select few among a large group of categorical "idealists."I can say with great certainty that a purely communist society will never occur in this world in the near or far future. If it somehow does, it will not be created by uniform consent among the masses, but rather by forced coercion by some body or government ie: George Orwell's "1984." By human nature, there will always be the greedy who cannot resist to seize military and political power.

And yes, I understand Marx's writing. I simply have a different view than he does on the role that an individual must play in a society and the role that government plays in a society.

I also wouldn't say that we (Americans) live in a country that directly adheres to the thought of Adam Smith by any means. The U.S. has adopted the philosophy of J.M. Keynes since Hoover and Roosevelt. Adam Smith hasn't had a voice since the 19th Century in the United States. Also, the morals of Smith's "classical liberalism" is very commonsensical. The moral and political suppositions of liberalism have been based on traditions such as natural rights and utilitarian theory which protects every individuals life, liberty and property. These morals have not changed since their creation.
Mar 4 2010 7:49PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Look at the Paris Commune. It didn't last long but it was a purely communist society. Also when Mormons first originated the United Order was largely communist.

I don't think you quite understand Marx's views or you wouldn't have mentioned anything about 1984. That has nothing to do with Marxist ideals. An awesome book, but it is propaganda when related to what Marx idealized. In real Marxist theory, there is no overbearing government or any for that matter. There is no entity called the "state". Most people don't understand that because we have been taught a very elementary version of anything other than capitalism. So I encourage you to read up a bit more on it. Also you just proved my point of we haven't been around long enough to perform a systemic analysis of "human nature" You just said that human nature is greed, and you would be correct by saying that about human nature in the present. This has not always been the case and probably won't always be the case.

What would you call the majority of Republicans then? (perhaps the largest party/shared ideological view of the US) I would say it has become a recurrence back to "market" principles. Thanks Reagan. Keynes philosophy of economic leakages is almost ignored if not laughed at by Chicagoists now. It's sad, but true. There has been a regressive backlash against it.

How can you say these morals have not changed? Why do we have a Supreme Court? Are you aware of the Civil Rights Act? I am pretty sure those right there evolve/change moral judgement every day. A person in Georgia 60 years ago may have said Love thy neighbor, unless thyself be black. Now most people in Georgia say love thy neighbor no matter the skin color. This is an adaptation of morals and most have changed/been deprived with economic advancement. Like you pointed out, greed. Avarice wasn't around since the dawn of man. It evolved with us.
Mar 4 2010 8:11PM
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seemeski
Posts: 4210 - Karma: 124
You don't have to believe in a higher power or an afterlife to feel guilty about doing something bad. If I accidentally hurt someone I don't think, "Oh no I'm not going to heaven" I think "Oh no I hurt someone."

You shouldn't be good to other people just because you want to get into heaven, you should be good because you want to be a good person to yourself and to those around you. You shouldn't let or need a fictitious thing to guide your actions.
Mar 4 2010 8:20PM
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