Privatized Terrain Park - Thoughts/Ideas

this is true for Resorts.  The passes are so cheap at places like Vail Resorts mountains because they make so much in lodging, food, and extras for your vacation.  If you're gonna have a smaller place like what you're describing you'll just have to figure out how much your initial expenses are and then operating costs, thenfigure out your income after and charge accordingly.  So your pass prices would be the last thing you'd figure out.  And hopefully you can make it cheap thru other income sources!

(Try getting a "stimulus" loan to get it going!)

This thread is what happens when a bunch of 14 - 18 year old's brainstorm about a company. 

No offense to anyone, you guys are thinking about this stuff and it's a sick idea, but you're calculating everything from a limited perspective.  10 bucks an hour for a digger/cat driver??  Maybe if you are 17 living with your parents.  As other people have said, triple, even quadruple for some employee's.  Especially if you want good cat drivers (which is what you'd want if you're running a park mountain.)  Snowmaking is unbelievably expensive if not just for the machines, but for the water storage, maintenance, power, and I'm sure dozens of other small things that go unseen.  
Also, consider the fact that for every new business, you need to hire a group of lawyers to deal with the lawsuits that are bound to come, an accountant or two to do your taxes, a group of salespeople/marketing department to bring people in and market the park/plan events, tow rope/tbar maintanance and repair (Expensive stuff surprisingly.)

Sick idea, I'd be down, but I see something like Whistler/Blackcomb has (the one time fee for the big park) implemented everywhere as a more appropriate option.  Bring's in a bit of money for new features and keeps the gapers out and you/them safe.

just end the fucking thread

you need to give up on this thread, and pursue a business degree. its time to get learned.

Here's Echo Mountain.

Pretty much 99% park.

You can look at the trail map etc...

http://www.echomt.com/

Naw I think it was like 30 hours of continuous and and 42 of continuous...

For got to add that is in alberta canada.

I haven't worked or ran a hill, but here is what I do know...

Supposedly some of a resorts biggest expenses are involved with the energy / water used in snow making.

Many hills have agreements with municipalities to use X amount of water for X dollars. A local hill went over and they got fined a pretty penny for lowering the water table. You should definitely look at how much snow making equipment costs, and the potential energy / water usage.

If you are going to erect a structure like a aerial lift....you will need to have soil engineers come in and test your soil to know what kind of cement foundation will be required.

You are going to pay out the ass for insurance. You are an extreme sport targeting people who want to take it to the next level.

Sponsors? Look at Icey Air or whatever that show is. It doesn't seem easy to find sponsors out of the blue. But if you found a solid deal HELL YEAH.

I think there are "colleges" you can go to for building jumps and features. I would consider hiring a full time graduate of a school like such. Then a carpenter / engineer who can design features on CAD and be able to design safe ones (you might need to outsource CAD design work, or buy pre-made features). You need to consider the stresses the feature has on it for it to be safe. Whatever, features are expensive, and you obviously want to be unique, so custom stuff is going to be on your mind. Then another lift operator / engineer who can maintain a lift and run it (or the tow rope).

Honestly why do you think they charge $14 for chicken fingers at places? Or have ski schools everywhere, or day camps @ 800 a day, hotel rooms for $400 a night, etc.

Ski hills cost big bucks when it comes down to it. Buy a cat machine? Pssh can't even guess the cost.... I would imagine like $10g to $50-100g. I am not sure what kind of cost this equipment is.

Libility might not allow just some average joes to take over some public land and create features. You might need to be an established business, with capital, and the whole 9 yards.

Don't forget you need an accountant to do your payroll taxes. Your employee wages would be dependent on where you live, and comparable to other ski resorts.

You should just try and sell yourself to the hill as a terrain park management company that seeks to make terrain parks "safer" (aka better built / maintained ones) and you need to sell yourself aka make it seem like you will make the hill bank over time.

Try and get MSP or some film companies to make get some shots there with your name everywhere.

Hahahaha you' re hilarious. I have a B. Comm concentrating in Finance and a B.Sc in Economics. I also have several years of management and federal gov experience. But maybe I should go 'get learned'


Gotta love newschoolers. There is a severe lack of reading going on here. Whoever said $10 for a catdriver, god, seriously?. Please, just read the first post. I specifically said I had no idea how much they cost. The $10-13 is the unionized rate is for lifties/ pass checkers. Thats just a fact, it's what they get paid at my mountain.

This thread needs to die. Very few people read, they just write the first thing that comes in their head. Thank you very much to anyone who contributed positively to to the discussion, the webpages, ideas,etc were good.

 It's obvious that most of the users on NS still can't have a proper discussion. This thread was ment to be a SEMI-serious, fun  discussion, tossing around ideas and getting some estimates on costs, etc. Instead it turned into a bashin shitshow. There is an obvious lack of maturity on here and it makes me realize why I took such a long hiatus from NS. Any thread that falls too far outside the accepted standard here suffers from erratic responses.

And Papa, i'm dissapointed to say the least. As a mod I think you need to set a better example. "Just Stop," yeah thats a positive attitude. Sorry for such an irrelavent thread. Perhaps I should have posted another "SAGA Sizing", "Tall Tee" or "What skis to buy" thread.

 right now you got the basics of a business plan but you need the specifics of each detail for a business plan. you would use this business plan as a selling point and a organizer for you to use  to sell your idea to investors or sponsors as you stated above. most investors wont just give you sponsorship money just for a idea they want facts solid information in front of them.

there are many websites about business plans i found a few just to get your mind jogging (http://articles.bplans.com/writing-a-business-plan/A-Standard-Business-Plan-Outline)-(http://articles.bplans.com/writing-a-business-plan/A-Standard-Business-Plan-Outline)- Here is a Perfect definition for a business plan this shall help-(http://sbinformation.about.com/cs/businessplans/a/aa020903a.htm)

Also you will need to find your start-up cost (equiptment etc) and your average cost (employees wages, electricle, insurance) but remember about taxes such as medicare, social socurity, federal income tax etc. you will also need to find your break even point (which is time at which you start to make a profit after debt has been paid off this will most likely take a while if you take a loan out) after loans, sponsor ships and possible partial sales of ownerships are used to boost your personal equity into the business start thinking of demographic and geographics of locations of mountains you are planning to use and population of skiers/snowboarders in the area. compare prices of competition and set your prices according to your quality of your productor or in this case your features to theirs you set your price that consumers are willing to pay. Do not forget advertising main key to a business you can always trust word of mouth it helps but usually isnt good or faast enough to keep a business alive (if you could give me names of surrounding mountains in the area and resort names i could help you get a price range idea.)

That is a small summary of basics of what need to be done i jsut completed a business plan recently mine was 27 pages. Find a Good guide on a business plan and after you finish your business plan and it still seems logical and financial possible go for it and put all your time and effort into it and plan on being broke for a few years!

Hopefully some of that helped pm me if ya got any questions i can type out the outline i ussed from a business book if you would like me to.

GOOD LUCK!

and i hope this idea works out good idea for sure!

for "Foord Prices" it is a monopoly for all ski hills because they have no competition of food industry in the area so they jack the prices up not just because cost and that it is expensive but because they can make up for lost sales there from losses in other places.

For example at my hill, hamburger $8-12 bucks 45 mins away dairy queen $2-6 hamburger would you really drive 45 mins to save $6-10 on a hamburger. Food at a hill is totally seprate from costs of running a park they jack the prices because they can and they know people will buy them when they are hungry

for the "Cat Machine"  i am pretty sure you could rent them from another mountain or lease a extra cat from another mountain for a season. Possibly cheaper i dont know just a idea.

OH SNAP!!!!!!

Dude, where did you go to school? You have a Bcomm in Finance and an econ degree and can't figure out a simple cash flow/business plan? Your cost estimates are WAY off.

If you had ANY understanding of ski resort finance, even in passing, you would know a terrain park on it's own is not cash flow positive. There is no way this idea will work unless the resort or provincial government fund the costs, you will not be able to make it cash flow positive because:

1) You won't be able to charge $30+ a day which you would need to
2) You won't have anywhere near the numbers of people riding it, casual people and young kids will not pony up the money. Do a bit of math, even with overzealous numbers you won't come close to making even $50k revenue a yer which will not even come close to covering cat and snowmaking, let alone insurance and other misc stuff.

Good on you for trying, but lose the attitude and get serious.

great idea. but grooming would be a bitch 

ok so yea know on average to run a cat JUST THE CAT is around 250 to 300 dollars per hour plus driver wage. so my mountain where im at its 280 dollars and hour to run the cat and 23 an hour to pay me and im out 8 to 10 hours a nite so do the math.

(Cat time for one night (280 x 8 = 2240 ))

(Drivers wage for one night (23 x 8 = 184))

(Total cost for one night (2240 + 184 = 2424 ))

(Total cost for one week (7days)(2424 x 7 =16,968))

o right there your looking at close to 2500 dollars a night in cat and operator time figure out 7 days and your at 16,968 for every week if you have just one cat thats not bad but also think how big your budget is cause our resort runs 8 cats for 16 hours a night and the lowest paid is 18 an hour. that varys from mountain to mountain for wages and also how old your equipment is the older it is the more cost per hour to run it cause parts and stuff just break on em and stuff.

anyways i hope that gives you a better picture on cat time and stuff

also to buy a new cat your looking at anywhere from 250,000 to up to 600,000. i know the top of the line PB600 park bully is close to 550,000 but the PB400 is around 400,000. and the Prinoth Bisons are around the same

Seriously? DO me a favor and read the whole thing first....

"There is no way this idea will work unless the resort or provincial government fund the costs"
I SPECIFICALLY said that the provincial government  owns my resort and it is running in the red!

I also said that I would be expecting provincial gov contributions.

Please, noone else tell me that I need a business plan, or I don't know about finance, cash flow, etc. That is the one area where I don't need help.

I also asked for input here, from fellow Newschoolers about cost estimates and ideas. I am not comming up with any of this stuff on my own. In my original post I asked how much each one of these would be. I am getting my info from you guys.

Do you think I would use NS as a credible source if I was putting together a business plan? No! I can do all of this research on my own. I just wanted this thread to be a creative discussion, not a fact finding mission. You guys are the one throwing out the numbers! I'm simply putting them together.

I partly to blame for the confusion here though. I really shoul have posted this in Regionals because a lot of people here don't realize (even though I said) that my mountawin is GOVERNMENT OWNED.

Look..   read my first post in this thread and reply in an intelligent manner to that post. The second was not in response to you but rather to an estimate that was so far off the mark that I actually thought about deleting it, but rather (as a mod) set an example to thinkbefore posting clueless guesses.

I still think you are trolling and this thread is achieving the exact results you were looking for.  I think you probably do know something and that you are just playing around.

In the event you aren't

Regardless of who owns the resort.  As the manager of that resort you will/or should still be responsible for managing all costs associated with the operation. You should know that. Without a solid business plan you won't get sponsors. Besides, where is the return on the dollar for someone to put their name on a jib. Without knowing projected skier visits and location, you can't estimate insurance...  Ok use the industry rule of 10% of your income. Your lack of understanding about wages is baffling considering that you have an economics degree and management experience with a government.  Troll. OK OK OK  maybe you just smoke a lot of pot or something.

Here for your first night of operation for rough estimation purposes Mr College Economics Degree Man......  assuming you are starting from scratch, as you requested

Insurance, Snow, Cat, Rail.

Insurance 2.5k ~10% of your income. Income should be enough to cover costs correct?

Snowmaking - 17k = 1 fan gun@8k, Rentals of: 480v Generator@3k, Water pump@3k, air compressor@3k.

Rented Cat from neighbor 3.5k - Cartage, fuel, operator

Rail (1) - 2k

~10% cost overrun 2k (include your wages and misc in this number?)

First night costs 27k/45= 600 tickets -  think you will do that on your first day?

Consider this.  Big Boulder Park - 100% coverage on 21 trails has 6 parks with lift tickets at $28 with 15 million people within 2 hours drive and barely gets 2-300 visits on Saturday and Sunday this time of the year, there is only one other mountain competing that is open, who lets you ski for free with your season pass from another hill within 45 minutes of Big BOulder.

Can this thread die now?

- Insurance - Likely be purchased as an add-on package to go with the mountain insurance.
                Question: How much would this cost? Anyone in the insurance biz?

- Cat Time - Building Features, Maintenance, etc.
                Question: I have absolutely no idea how much cat drivers are paid? Also, what would you expect for maintenance and build time for a mid-large size park (a week/month/season)

Snowmaking - Maybe not on the west coast, but on the east its essential to having a large park in early season.
                 Question: Anyone know a cost breakdown for snowmaking? Per qubic foot for bonus points!

Rails/Features - The shit you actually have to buy to make a nice park.
                 Question: Cost to make rails? Boxes? Keep in mind you can ammortize it over the lifetime of the feature. How long do features last?

Random Expenses: Guy's salary to check park passes, fome fencing, etc, etc.
               Question:  WHAT ELSE????


Some other points to ponder: How big of a population base would make it feasable? Would the mountain be willing to give you certain breaks (cheap cat time, freefencing and supplies, etc) due to positive spinoffs (increased interest in the mountain, increased lift sales, etc)?

Want creative. Just wait for it to snow, grab a shovel and rake and create something. Then call all your buddies and charge them 20$ to hike and huck it. 

Winter Park does the same thing for their dark territory park. You pay an additional 20 bucks and watch a movie and then you can hit their bigger stuff. they have a guy checking passes at the entry. the first 3 jumps are 35 - 45 and 55 feet and then the last one is 75 something, so pretty legit. Its real sick if you have the pass because there are no lines ever and everyone in there can usually throw down.

If your province can't run the park, or afford to run it I should say....

How can they afford to expand, or outsource to someone who will ultimately want more money invested? It is a supply / demand. You increase the demand or # of riders wanting a better park, and then contact the supplier to let them know you can do it better, or you will just take your money else where.

I think people are right that terrain parks do not pay for the place to be open. Sure there is a group of people, but they would all buy season passes if it were that cool.

I don't think its cheap for resorts to do what they do and food costs are probably right in line with where they should be.

They have a lot of people employed, and despite employment the larger expenses being operating / expansion / new lifts, insurance / costs of paying for WATER RIGHTS.

I think you might need to find out what kind of WATER RIGHTS you will have at this location. Water rights is a huge issue for any kind of place consuming industrial amounts of water. Resorts probably spend millions on water rights every year.

You guys want a job out west ANYWHERE? Go be a lawyer specifically in water rights. You will have a job for the next couple hundred years out west as the water table drops more and more.

Why not just get all your buddies to pitch in and help dig and charge them nothing? 

As for me 'being a troll.' I think if you look back at some of my other contributions you'll realize i'm not trying to be a troll. Not trying to post an off topic or emotional thread. Just trying to have a fun discussion.

I think the idea here in particular is more of a semi-private park. Using the same government employees who work at the mountain already reducing almost all of the background costs you speak of (training, payroll, insurance, benifits, etc,etc). Also, there is no need for many man hours other then the cat driver. Which we now know will be about $300 /hr including the cat.

I think a lot of people here are jumping to the conclusion that it won't break even, therefore it's a bad idea and it won't work. Not necessarily true! I said nowhere that it had to break even. I just wanted to get some numbers. If the sum of the spinoffs from creating a private park outweigh the deficit to get it to break even, then it's not far fetched to ask for government contributions. 

You have to admit, it would be sick to have a private park like that Kingvale park!


Also, there's been some info on business plans thrown around in here so I might as well mention the best source for Canadian small business help : http://www.grants-loans.org/

Ski hill operations/management course?

for all of your experience, you lack knowledge.

First all all, I must say. This isn't a venture I would ever invest my own money in. Ever. In fact I wouldn't invest in a whole lot of aspects of skiing. I never said I planned to do this, it was only for interest sake and to generate discussion. Which it defiantly did. I keep what I like to do in my spare time and what I invest in very separate (Unless you include investing in ski gear).



Care to elaborate on 'you lack knowledge?' That's a pretty bold statement....


Especially from someone who makes such punkish posts as :

The woman selling this is a bitch. i sent her a reasonable offer and she started to get pissy about it. her ad says 'best offer" and she says she will not negotiate price. Please do me a favor and spam her.

It goes the otherway too.  Stowe's day ticket is $93.

This is because the real estate market is in the shitter.

Thats a shit load of money u need to do that