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Pelosi= Killer?

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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20071011-041535-4989r

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380575551&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Please read at least one of the articles or know what I am talking about before posting.

Why would Pelosi and other House democrats wait until now to accuse Turkey of commiting genocide?

Pelosi’s thinking is quite simple; Bush will veto every bill that calls for troop withdrawl so why not kill our troops through the backdoor. Turkey is the only nation bordering Iraq that lets the US fly through their airspace. So why not just piss the nation of Turkey off so that we can’t fly in supplies through their airspace without another conflict. Lets just cut off the troop’s supplies so that they will lose and we can withdraw from the Mid East.

I would like to see what other people on here have to say but please stay away from such phrases like “this thread raises the retardation level of ns” “you are a fucking retard” things like that when quoting other’s replies. Basically try and keep it civil and if you have nothing intelligent to post then please don’t post it. Thanks
Oct 17 2007 12:50AM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
it WAS A GENOCIDE.  and turkey is a piece of shit country where they throw you in jail if you mention it.  its time someone called them on their bullshit, the armenian genocide isnt a small one either.  i read a book by this war journalist and he talks about interviewing people who tell him "my family, along with 1500 armenians, are buried here"

I cant remember how many were killed, but it was a shitload.  turkey sucks
Oct 17 2007 12:55AM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
yeah but i dont know if now is the right time to do this.  but it should have been done a long time ago
Oct 17 2007 12:56AM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
exactly it was a genocide. a genocide that happened 1915-1917. why must it be brought up now? pelosi is using it as a tool to put our troops in even more harms way
Oct 17 2007 1:01AM
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BrokenBones
Posts: 1274 - Karma: 694
Its a really bad situation... the genocide did happen... but should it be brought up at this time?  However if someone performed a genocide on my people, and then a government refused to recognize it because it wasn't "convenient" for them at the time to do so.... i'd be pretty angry.
Oct 17 2007 1:08AM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
so why is it the US government's business. I think it's quite ironic that the same liberals who say we need to stay out of other countries business (ie iraq) do something like this
Oct 17 2007 1:11AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Well, see, if you honestly believe that it's the goal of the speaker of the house to "kill our troops through the backdoor", the phrase "you're a retard" actually seems to fit quite nicely. I can say with some confidence that Nancy Pelosi did not seek public office as part of some nefarious scheme to kill off marines.
Oct 17 2007 1:12AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Then allow me to explain. The doctrine we're putting in play is not the "stay out of other countries' business" doctrine, it is the R2P doctrine, "responsibility to protect". Where there is a genocide, the developed nations have a responsibility to prevent catastrophic death tolls. This was the product of the 1990s, put into practice in the Balkans (Kosovo particularly). The reason Iraq did not qualify under this doctrine, and why I and many other people opposed invasion, is because the genocide which occurred there took place almost two decades ago, and cannot be prevented; the reason the war was initiated was not to protect the Iraqi people (as both Mr. Wolfowitz and Ms. Rice unequivocally stated back in '03). So that would be the difference.
Oct 17 2007 1:17AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Which isn't to say that the US government DOES have a responsibility to intervene here. I'm not sold on that. I'm just saying, that's the argument.
Oct 17 2007 1:18AM
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BrokenBones
Posts: 1274 - Karma: 694
Thanks for writing two posts that I was too lazy to write myself... + Karma.
Oct 17 2007 1:19AM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
Obviously you don't understand the issue and you don't understand mild sarcasm. Of course like most sane humans she doesn't want more people to die. She is using the Armanian genocide as a tool to piss Turkey off therefore making it extremely difficult to get the troops their supplies therefore causing them to perish in high numbers. it is also pathetic that a mod would contribute to the hate on this site.
Oct 17 2007 1:21AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Oh! My bad. I wasn't aware that disagreeing with you was tantamount to not understanding the issue. Your interpretation of why she's talking about the genocide is clearly the only legitimate one, and yes, your restatement of your original point without any rebuttal or mention of my differing perspective obviously refutes my point altogether. I didn't realize that when someone offers a counterargument, saying what you originally said over again is an effective method of debate. I'll have to remember that for my moot trial later this year. Thanks buddy. In the meantime I'll go back to writhing in the crushing grip of your argumentative skill.

... You're right, I don't like "mild" sarcasm.
Oct 17 2007 1:30AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Uh, what?
Oct 17 2007 1:43AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24704 - Karma: 29,687
I love how you all blame pelosi for this haha.

believe you me... its not JUST pelosi. its the house. shes the majority leader, so shes the one who speaks.. but for christ sake... its a VOTE people... not one person.

And yeah.. this isnt going to change shit... cmon people. We have KUWAIT right fucking there in the persian gulf that we have aerospace access to. They are our ally there, and have been since the Persian Gulf War of 91.

Still Turkey isnt going to say "oh wtf you talked shit about us? fuck that.. you cant use our aerospace you... big... largest... most... advanced military in the world who just invaded our southern neighbor..."

Cmon guys... talk about blowing something WAY out of proportion...

I doubt Turkey gives a shit what we say about the situation. it was fucking 90 yrs ago... and we did it just to appease their lack of diplomacy towards Yerevan, Armenia.

Oct 17 2007 1:43AM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
so much for Rwanda.
Oct 17 2007 2:37AM
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John.
Posts: 1327 - Karma: 11
We should come up with another NS award, the opposite of the Golden Wheelchair. It would go to the fiercest ownage of the week, maybe we could call it a Quinny?

I hereby nominate this post for a well-deserved Quinny. Does anyone wish to second this motion?
Oct 17 2007 2:45AM
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Joe_
Posts: 648 - Karma: 14
^I second that motion, j.d.'s post was perfect
Oct 17 2007 3:50AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I think that a very good point is being made here, that, since the democrats in congress were not able to cut the funding for the war or set any deadlines on troop withdrawals, they would try to cut of the flow of supplies entering Iraq therefore ending the war. And what better way then by making a bill officially recognizing of the slaughter of 1.8 million people as a genocide. If it passes, the Turkish government, which for the last 80 years has been fervently denying that anything happened, would end their support for the war therefore cutting off the major supply root into the country. If it doesn't pass it makes whoever opposes it (Republicans who support the war) look like terrible people who don't care about mass killings. Why else, after 80 years, would America recognize it? Answer that.



Oct 17 2007 4:38AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
HAHAHA Kuwait yeah right, ohhh man

The reason that Kuwait is not as secure of a route, because anything that is shipped there has to go through the straight of Hormuz which is partially controlled by the Iranians.

Also Turkey will for sure do something if the resolution is passed, the US wouldn't be able to do anything at all. Militarily we are already stretched to thin to engage in a conflict with any other nation right now (especially not turkey) so we wouldn't be able to do anything about it that way. Economically Turkey has way more connections with the EU than the US so economic sanctions wouldn't be to effective.

And the will for sure do something about it if it happens, they have told us that they will.
Oct 17 2007 4:46AM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
Maybe we are trying to make friends as we scout new areas for missile defense systems.

I find it very odd that they would pick now to recognize this genocide. What does a country have to do to another group of people before it is considered a genocide. When are we gonna recognize the U.S. genocide of the native american, wonder what the exact numbers there were. I'm just saying what is this gonna do for the armenians, will they seek financial restitution?? Is this just to make the turks look bad in case we have to beat em up a bit while defending the kurds??
Oct 17 2007 8:40AM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
well I'm not gonnna look up the definition of genocide but to me it has always meant the systematic murder of a very large subset of people.  so killing the native americans to me doesnt qualify as a traditional genocide because we killed them over a long period of time, sometimes through war, sometimes just through slaughter, but mostly through smallpox.

but the armenian genocide involved the systematic killing of over 1 million people over 2 years.  and to people who say it doesn't apply to today, tell that to the people sitting in turkish prisons who were arrested by the government for mention of it.  you have to realize, it wasn't long ago at all in the grand scheme of things, its like saying "forget about the holocaust"
Oct 17 2007 11:47AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
I do think you can argue that this is being done for political purposes. I don't think you can argue that it follows that Nancy Pelosi is a "killer".
Oct 17 2007 11:51AM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
An initiative for recognizing the Armenian genocide is on the congressional ballot damn near every year. With that being said, I think its funny that there is all of this hoopla over what the Ottoman-Turks did in the context of WWI. This is while our own government, liberal or conservative, has still yet to conjure up anywhere close to an official apology to the displaced Native Americans. While that is an apple and orange comparison, its quite funny to watch these politicians get themselves worked up into a frenzy over issues that are more about "principles" rather than actually getting anything done.
Oct 17 2007 12:23PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
I'm not sure why I said congressional, I meant the house. Either way, drawing the conclusion that this has anything to do with Iraq is asinine. The only reason it comes up is because the Turkish government is deciding to exercise their rights of douchebagery. They still wont even acknowledge the event even happened.
Oct 17 2007 12:31PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
VE VERE INVITED! CHECK VIT POLAND!
Oct 17 2007 12:43PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
You forgot Poland.
Oct 17 2007 12:50PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Yeah, that just about sums it up. The excuse is that the Turkish were scared the Russians were going to march though the back door and recruit the Armenians for an invasion. Though the reality is Russians were to busy occupying themselves with massive casualties and starving people to think about marching between the Black and Caspian Seas.
Oct 17 2007 12:51PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
I think a lot of people don't realize that this isn't a newly brought up issue. Like Quinny said, it's been on the house ballot many times.
Oct 17 2007 1:00PM
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Alexander_Keith
Posts: 3204 - Karma: 25
75-80,000 Iraqi civilians killed since 2003 as a direct result of Civil War/Invasion/Occupation?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
-all non combatant deaths. (means they WERENT insurgents)
-all documented cases, non fraudulant
-all deatsh related to violence.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/about/
Oct 17 2007 1:04PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
You're not attempting to compare that to the Armenian massacre are you? It's a completely different scenario whether you agree with the war or not.
Oct 17 2007 1:07PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
What exactly was the scenario then in 1915. Did the turks just want to eliminate them or were they actually in some sort of battle/land dispute. Sorry I don't have time to read the entire history right now, just looking for a quick overview of what you guys understand of it.
Oct 17 2007 1:27PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Let me put it this way, the Armenian genocide is practically parallel with the Jewish holocaust. About 1.5 million Armenians were deliberately and systematically murdered under the guise of war.

World War I was going on and Turkey was allied with the Germans. Because Russia was a common enemy, there was a possible scenario in which the Turkey could be invaded by Russia. The Russians could have recruited the Armenians to fight against the Ottomans (Turkey). That is the excuse if you can actually get a Turk to admit it happened.

The Armenians and Muslims have had a degree of animosity towards each other for thousands of years. There were preexisting wounds that ran deep though each others history and culture. However, the Armenians were legally recognized citizens of the Ottoman Empire at the time. The reality was that even if Russia invaded, it was unlikely that Armenians would side with them and actually seek protection under the Ottomans.

The Ottomans sent an army to completely eradicate the Armenian population in the eastern quarter of Turkey. The Armenians tried to resist and fought back. The resistance is another common excuse among staunch Turks if you can get them to actually admit it happened. The repercussions were swift and nearly the entire Armenian population was killed, the few survivors fled. Buildings, ancient monuments, and historical artifacts were destroyed in an attempt to wipe away any evidence the Armenians even existed.

They were killed simply because they were Armenian, no other reason. Prior to the Nazis exterminating the Jews, Hitler even said himself "No one remembers the Armenians." That was an excuse to go ahead with his "plan."
Oct 17 2007 1:48PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
I forgot to add, the land that the Armenians had been occupying in eastern Turkey (between the Black and Caspian Seas) had been their homeland for over 4,000 years.
Oct 17 2007 1:51PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Another thing to add. From a historical perspective, it's similar to what the Romans did to the Carthaginians when the walls for Carthage finally fell.
Oct 17 2007 1:56PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
ya I caved and am reading a bit about it. Still I am finding some sources that say the armenians did take up arms with the russians. Lots more sources speaking of the atrocities though for sure.

Like this: "As a young boy, my maternal grandfather witnessed five of his relatives being killed during the genocide - one of them garrotted even! My maternal grandmother also saw her older cousin surrender the will to live as they were all being force-marched in the Der el Zor Syrian Desert. She decided to end her life by jumping into one of the wells alongside the route Armenians were being forced to take on their march. Yet, to my grandmother's amazement, her cousin came out of the well she had leapt into because it was already padded to the brim with Armenian dead bodies!"

Even that has a taste of what we did to the native americans though.(Death march)
Oct 17 2007 2:03PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I've written a few papers on the genocide and what quinny said is damn close near right. The only thing that he left out is that the reason the Turks thought the Armenians would side with the Russians was because, like the Russians, the Armenians were Orthodox Christians. Also the most of the deaths occurred from the "death marches" through the Syrian desert.

Whats chilling is that Hitler once said about the genocide when trying to justify the holocaust to his supporters "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation's of the Armenians."
Oct 17 2007 2:35PM
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