Red Bull Unrailistic | LIVE Broadcast

Member of the Month

PartyBullshiit
March, 2024

Online

Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post. Register to become a member today!

Revision Messed Up

profile picture
Jcamotts
Posts: 156 - Karma: 2,584
So, back in September I was looking around for a new pair of skis for this season. After hours of searching, someone recommended revision skis. They look sick so I got them for a sick deal during the pre-sale. There was only one slight issue, the skis ship date was "mid November" although that was kinda annoying I knew I wouldn't be skiing at all between now and that time. Fast foward almost 3 months and I still havent heard from them, so I sent them an email regarding the shipping. They said that they would contact me in the next week for an Update. They sent another email a few days later saying they ran into some issues during production. "Due to some quality inconsistencies, we made the decision to rebuild a good portion of our skis". At that time I was like "ok, well I would rather wait 2-3 more weeks for solid skis then get low-quality skis now". They also said they would send another email in about a week for a new ETA. I got the email this morning and they said the new shipping date would be THE FIRST WEEK OF JANUARY. Thats almost have way into the ski season. I'm disappointed because the skis looked so fun but theres no way im waiting that long.


But thats not all, they also gave me (and all other customers) a $100 coupon to there website. Sure I appreciate them going out of there way to do that because they definitely feel bad abut this whole situation, but $100 is not gonna keep me waiting around for another month and a half. So, what do you guys think. Are any of you guys in the same Boat as Me?
Could this issue possibly be the end of revision?
Nov 26 2016 10:17AM
3099 745
profile picture
kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,101
SofaKingSicki doubt it. best i think you can realistically hope for is some follow up/closure haha


He is in Michigan somewhat near me (at least as of a month ago he was). I have enough information to track him down. I dont see a point in doing it for a couple reasons. 1) I have no skin in the game. It would only be for an old school NS "meet and greet". 2) There still would be no closure. He wont talk to anyone, so why would he talk to me? I cant take the frustration away from someone who got scammed by him.
I still think its crazy that his site is still functional and I can buy skis. I just now checked and added a pair to my basket and went to checkout. The odd thing is it lost is secure connection. I was no longer on a https: site. Just a plain http: which is not right for a checkout cart.
Sep 1 2017 1:58PM
6 0
profile picture
SofaKingSick
Posts: 8913 - Karma: 57,407
kingsskierHe is in Michigan somewhat near me (at least as of a month ago he was). I have enough information to track him down. I dont see a point in doing it for a couple reasons. 1) I have no skin in the game. It would only be for an old school NS "meet and greet". 2) There still would be no closure. He wont talk to anyone, so why would he talk to me? I cant take the frustration away from someone who got scammed by him.
I still think its crazy that his site is still functional and I can buy skis. I just now checked and added a pair to my basket and went to checkout. The odd thing is it lost is secure connection. I was no longer on a https: site. Just a plain http: which is not right for a checkout cart.


Yes that's very weird

And yes I agree completely with what you said
Sep 1 2017 2:49PM
0 0
profile picture
Kolbalt7
Posts: 55 - Karma: 74
kingsskierHe is in Michigan somewhat near me (at least as of a month ago he was). I have enough information to track him down. I dont see a point in doing it for a couple reasons. 1) I have no skin in the game. It would only be for an old school NS "meet and greet". 2) There still would be no closure. He wont talk to anyone, so why would he talk to me? I cant take the frustration away from someone who got scammed by him.
I still think its crazy that his site is still functional and I can buy skis. I just now checked and added a pair to my basket and went to checkout. The odd thing is it lost is secure connection. I was no longer on a https: site. Just a plain http: which is not right for a checkout cart.


You can always go beat his ass and take a video of it. I mean, it won't get me my skis, but it'll entertain me and make me feel a little bit better.
Sep 1 2017 4:32PM
11 0
profile picture
iggyskier
Posts: 10434 - Karma: 9,753
Park_RangerDamn... it has been a month since someone posted.

So now what? Is this just over? So wild that Bill seemingly fell off the face of the earth with all these kids money over 9 months ago and there still isn't a single answer or clue as to what exactly went down. Does anyone know if there is any kind of legal mediation in the works?


Honestly, the only chance I could see here would be to approach the Michigan Department of Justice and see if they had a DA that would be interested in giving it a look. Similar situation happened here in Oregon with the Coolest Cooler, though it was on a much much larger scale. You would have to find a way to coordinate Revision customers with the state of Michigan and find enough to get the ball rolling downhill - which seems pretty difficult. Even then, no guarantee that anything would come of it.

I would actually be surprised to find that no one has done that yet, too, so it's possible they were already approached and the situation is too small for them to divert resources too.
Sep 1 2017 4:38PM
3 0
profile picture
Broy
Posts: 138 - Karma: 724
Assuming its a no, but any updates?
Sep 13 2017 5:34PM
1 0
profile picture
stinky_cheese
Posts: 1215 - Karma: 5,118
Haven't really been keeping up with this thread but today I stopped by my local ski shop and there were like 7-8 pairs of revision skis just chillin like nothing ever happened. Kinda interesting I thought
Sep 15 2017 6:16PM
3 0
profile picture
Titus69
Posts: 9327 - Karma: 17,742
stinky_peteHaven't really been keeping up with this thread but today I stopped by my local ski shop and there were like 7-8 pairs of revision skis just chillin like nothing ever happened. Kinda interesting I thought

Probably got them, and everyone knew they sucked ass, could easily get 2 pairs for like $250 at this point.
Mole squads snap story the other day was them destroying and throwing away their revisions
Sep 15 2017 6:23PM
12 0
profile picture
Park_Ranger
Posts: 3825 - Karma: 8,634
Bumpity McBumpski
Nov 6 2017 4:14PM
13 2
profile picture
Jcamotts
Posts: 156 - Karma: 2,584
Ha 1 year since I ordered and still no skis or refund.
Nov 7 2017 5:23PM
19 0
profile picture
Broy
Posts: 138 - Karma: 724
Fuck revision
Nov 7 2017 6:20PM
3 0
profile picture
VISHNU
Posts: 593 - Karma: 21,789
I NEED ANSWERS THERE ARE NO ANSWERS HELP
Nov 7 2017 6:24PM
11 0
profile picture
Rparr
Posts: 5354 - Karma: 42,177
There have been a couple people during the course of this thread that claim they could probably find bill wanrooy. Stop being a pussy and cough up the info so we can go lynch him

-the entirety of newschoolers
Nov 7 2017 6:34PM
26 1
profile picture
CB4TSB
Posts: 428 - Karma: 1,221
JcamottsHa 1 year since I ordered and still no skis or refund.


Happy Anniversary!
Nov 7 2017 7:43PM
23 0
profile picture
saskyskier71
Posts: 123 - Karma: 434
I just like how it still says on the site that they will be dropping a new line up on august first. Wherever this man bill is I hope some NSers run into him sometime soon.
Nov 8 2017 9:05PM
1 0
profile picture
CB4TSB
Posts: 428 - Karma: 1,221
JcamottsHa 1 year since I ordered and still no skis or refund.


You never got your skis, but you did get more "Karma" points than anyone else in the past year, you even have more Karma than Vishnu. Some things are worth more than skis.
Priceless

**This post was edited on Nov 8th 2017 at 9:19:16pm
Nov 8 2017 9:16PM
3 0
profile picture
Randy_Quench
Posts: 5447 - Karma: 4,342
CB4TSBYou never got your skis, but you did get more "Karma" points than anyone else in the past year, you even have more Karma than Vishnu. Some things are worth more than skis.
Priceless

**This post was edited on Nov 8th 2017 at 9:19:16pm


lol I'll sell you all my karma for 300-whatever bones a pair of revisions cost.
Nov 8 2017 9:40PM
6 0
profile picture
kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,101
Randy_Quenchlol I'll sell you all my karma for 300-whatever bones a pair of revisions cost.


Ill sell mine for the price of two pairs since I have double the karma points.
Nov 9 2017 8:53AM
1 0
profile picture
.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,178
If it makes any of you feel any better, I got ripped off by Batalla 3-4 years ago and haven't seen anything. Tried reaching out as much as I could, talked with Bishop who said he'd try to figure it out. Nothing.

i hope all you guys get your money back or some skis. I know how it is to be out a couple hundred bucks and a pair of skis.

there are enough NSers in Michigan to make something happen I'd hope
Nov 9 2017 11:37AM
3 0
profile picture
Park_Ranger
Posts: 3825 - Karma: 8,634
.lenconIf it makes any of you feel any better, I got ripped off by Batalla 3-4 years ago and haven't seen anything. Tried reaching out as much as I could, talked with Bishop who said he'd try to figure it out. Nothing.

i hope all you guys get your money back or some skis. I know how it is to be out a couple hundred bucks and a pair of skis.

there are enough NSers in Michigan to make something happen I'd hope


Batalla - pretty wild that Bill Wanrooy was invovled in that fiasco as well. The guy is scum and a cancer to this industry. It blows me away how anyone, whether you were a customer or internally associated with the company (team riders, filimers, office staff?, etc.), could have trusted this guy/Revision after what went down with Epic Planks and Batalla. It was soooo easy to see how bad of a company Revision was from day 1. I predicted their failure a few years ago.

Mr. Bishop getting your money back - Lawlz

Michigan - there are without a doubt people in Michigan that are on this website that know Bill personally, know where he lives, etc. They may not have spoken with him since all of this went down... but there are quite a few members out there that know a lot about this guy. With that said - unless Bill is running a Revision Skis booth at Boyne this year, those who have never met him will never really know who he is. You could be on a ski lift next to him and wouldn't know.
Nov 9 2017 11:56AM
4 0
profile picture
loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
.lenconIf it makes any of you feel any better, I got ripped off by Batalla 3-4 years ago and haven't seen anything. Tried reaching out as much as I could, talked with Bishop who said he'd try to figure it out. Nothing.

i hope all you guys get your money back or some skis. I know how it is to be out a couple hundred bucks and a pair of skis.

there are enough NSers in Michigan to make something happen I'd hope


Also Bill's fault. Sorry that sucks but the irony has a level of humor
Nov 9 2017 2:09PM
0 0
profile picture
.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,178
loganimlachAlso Bill's fault. Sorry that sucks but the irony has a level of humor


I didn't know bill was involved with that too.

alrighty boys let's find this bastard and make him pay
Nov 9 2017 2:11PM
0 0
profile picture
Jnets
Posts: 91 - Karma: 152
.lenconI didn't know bill was involved with that too.

alrighty boys let's find this bastard and make him pay


Where would he even be...
Nov 9 2017 2:20PM
0 0
profile picture
kingsskier
Posts: 6212 - Karma: 2,101
JnetsWhere would he even be...


He is in western Michigan. Not too hard to track him down. I did like 10 minutes of googling and found him.
My thought is, I live in Michigan, I was not scammed by him. How would me punching him in the face take out the anger and agression of someone who did get scammed by him? He wont all of the sudden realize how big of a douche he is and pay everyone back. The people scammed really get nothing out of it. Id definitely call him out if I saw him on a lift or in person in general. Maybe Im just old now and NS is not the same as it was 10 years ago when I probably would have given him a face to face.
Nov 9 2017 2:41PM
7 0
profile picture
TheSmokinL
Posts: 496 - Karma: 1,613
Park_RangerYou could be on a ski lift next to him and wouldn't know.


$20 to the first person who finds out his kit this season
Nov 9 2017 2:58PM
14 0
profile picture
Park_Ranger
Posts: 3825 - Karma: 8,634
TheSmokinL$20 to the first person who finds out his kit this season


I bet that even Bill W is on the #Newwave hype. Rocking Adidas fa shoooo
Nov 9 2017 3:01PM
13 0
profile picture
207
Posts: 8969 - Karma: 3,846
I haven't posted in a long time and I'm by no means advocating vigilante justice. That being said, in the old days of NS '09-12ish, if this shit happened at least 10 members would have already paid Bill Wanrooy a visit. Back in the day on B/S/T anytime there was a scam, within days kids had already tracked the scammer down. I get that this is a professional business matter, and not some kid scamming on an online website, but this dude fucked over so many people , its astounding someone from Michigan hasn't at least confronted him.
Nov 9 2017 3:03PM
8 0
profile picture
Park_Ranger
Posts: 3825 - Karma: 8,634
Yeah, he definitely needs to suffer some consequences. It would be a shame if he looked at this and saw that no one commented for over 2 months. Not saying a thread is going to solve a single thing... but lets not allow this to become a part of the past and allow him to move on. It's nasty, but if I ever found out that he is working for a company/corporation/business/etc., I would contact them with all of this and try and ruin his career.

For example - Bill, if you're reading this - I was not affected by you and your scam one bit, but I will never forget what you did or your name, and if I ever have an opportunity to fuck you over, I will do so royally. I'm not a 16 year old fapping off to Wallisch edits; I've got an education, money, a network, and a lot of business in Michigan. I'll fuck you over if I ever come your way in a professional setting.
Nov 9 2017 3:09PM
23 0
profile picture
Jnets
Posts: 91 - Karma: 152
kingsskierHe is in western Michigan. Not too hard to track him down. I did like 10 minutes of googling and found him.
My thought is, I live in Michigan, I was not scammed by him. How would me punching him in the face take out the anger and agression of someone who did get scammed by him? He wont all of the sudden realize how big of a douche he is and pay everyone back. The people scammed really get nothing out of it. Id definitely call him out if I saw him on a lift or in person in general. Maybe Im just old now and NS is not the same as it was 10 years ago when I probably would have given him a face to face.


I wasn't scammed by him either. But after reading 29 pages, everyone should of got together who lived in the same state as the warehouse and then protested/demand answers. As a community imo
Nov 9 2017 3:21PM
3 0
profile picture
Lemuel
Posts: 14477 - Karma: 10,515
.lenconIf it makes any of you feel any better, I got ripped off by Batalla 3-4 years ago and haven't seen anything. Tried reaching out as much as I could, talked with Bishop who said he'd try to figure it out. Nothing.

i hope all you guys get your money back or some skis. I know how it is to be out a couple hundred bucks and a pair of skis.

there are enough NSers in Michigan to make something happen I'd hope


Still waiting on the batallas that I won. I even had them in my hand at SIA 3 years ago, saw the shipping label get made in front of my eyes (since i was flying back east) and they never actually got shipped. Scum
Nov 9 2017 11:56PM
6 0
profile picture
Mkvackay
Posts: 1903 - Karma: 5,460
Park_RangerFor example - Bill, if you're reading this - I was not affected by you and your scam one bit, but I will never forget what you did or your name, and if I ever have an opportunity to fuck you over, I will do so royally. I'm not a 16 year old fapping off to Wallisch edits; I've got an education, money, a network, and a lot of business in Michigan. I'll fuck you over if I ever come your way in a professional setting.


Dude I need to come visit you soon, its been too long! In any case...

There is a lot I would say to Bill. On one hand he got me started in this industry many years ago. But what he did to me, and everyone associated with Revision, is unforgivable. I hope for the sake of his family everything is okay and that they are doing well. But god damnit how can someone do that to such a tight-knit team who (in part or in whole) depended on him to make ends meet. Not to mention the countless kids who have not (and probably will not) get their skis/money back.
Nov 10 2017 12:19AM
3 0
profile picture
HypeBeast
Posts: 9774 - Karma: 72,202
Anyone a lawyer on here? I feel like there's something that has to be done since this dude scammed hundreds of people. Hundreds right?
It's a criminal act that should be investigated, but I assume that you would probably need a pool of everyone's receipts and bank statements to prove that this is actually worthy enough for any law enforcement to investigate. I'm sure if you could bring in a stack of receipts and say, hey, this dude scammed this many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and didn't deliver, and this isn't the first time-
someone may take notice.

Also if you Google revision skis, there's only ONE news article from an actual news station...in Denver. The rest are from ski magazines or websites. Also, the BBB only has 11 complaints. Fucking 11 complaints lol. Really? File some complaints to get the word out more. I mean if they have 100 complaints, that will look even better for news. Nothing will happen if no one knows. We know he lives in Michigan, so if you guys have an idea of what city he is in, contact the local news stations and tell them you have an investigative story to do. I live in Columbus and we have a station that does this all the time. Worst case scenario, your story gets out and drags this guys name through the mud for all to see.

If I lost $350-500 I'd be livid. Ranting on here won't do anything to help your cause. Get up and do something!
Nov 10 2017 12:28AM
5 0
profile picture
Lonely
Posts: 6601 - Karma: 59,672
I'll be back in western Michigan next week. I'll ask around. Not about to be a vigilante but I'm sure that just making the people he interacts with aware of the shit that has been pulled would be enough.
Nov 10 2017 12:58AM
0 0
profile picture
Lonely
Posts: 6601 - Karma: 59,672
Would bill happen to be around 40 years old?
Nov 10 2017 1:08AM
1 0
profile picture
SFBv420.0
Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,124
snowfinderGuys I got it.

Just need a few investors from NS and we can start up a ski company called Division skis. With a cool D logo and a cool tag line like Slay the D.

Make the skis at some shitty China factory that makes Defiance or Teton Skis.

Slap a great warranty on them because fuck it why not they cost like 20 buck to make.

Sign up some up and comer riders and say hey look we are on NS too super core just like you! Give them some skis for the big cost of a Jackson in turn for some media to edit up.

Sell skis cheap during the off season while over saturating all social media with the footy for the boys. Then up the price right before winter to catch those all hyped on the skis.

?????

Profit.

just so you knows bros our defiance skis are made by elan in slovinia this season
and if you'd like to be a spansered brand ambassador on team defiance
pm your resume and content to the team manager
skierman
Nov 10 2017 9:28AM
2 0
profile picture
Mr.Mitten
Posts: 1298 - Karma: 3,582
LonelyWould bill happen to be around 40 years old?


I do believe. I'll be back in Michigan late December and would love to be part of a vigilante team to at least track him down and ask some questions. Done business with Bill in the past and know homies who have as well, we can make this happen
Nov 10 2017 10:43AM
4 0
profile picture
VanMelle
Posts: 1277 - Karma: 1,140
Mr.MittenI do believe. I'll be back in Michigan late December and would love to be part of a vigilante team to at least track him down and ask some questions. Done business with Bill in the past and know homies who have as well, we can make this happen


Best of luck! It seemed like something was up financially leading up to this scam since he moved from a nice house in Grand Rapids to a MUCH smaller condo in Portage. I'm pretty sure he doesn't live there anymore and I don't have the address anymore but I know it's off of Oakland Dr, south of 94 by a elementary school (I believe) only a few miles from the highway.
Most probably won't believe it but Bill was always a good dude and always had the right intentions, even when doing Epic Planks so he had to of really really been screwed to pull something like this.

Still love an explaination for all this but most likely never will...
Nov 10 2017 2:31PM
1 1
profile picture
Bloom.
Posts: 3533 - Karma: 13,167
Get caught in the south with a bag of grass, go to jail for the rest of your life (especially if you're black).

Rip-off hundreds of people including kids who worked all summer long to buy your product....suffer no legal consequences.

Seriously wonder how this guy isn't in jail.
Nov 10 2017 3:59PM
22 1
profile picture
leprechaunsissy
Posts: 645 - Karma: 237
Bloom.Get caught in the south with a bag of grass, go to jail for the rest of your life (especially if you're black).

Rip-off hundreds of people including kids who worked all summer long to buy your product....suffer no legal consequences.

Seriously wonder how this guy isn't in jail.


This thread is a prime opportunity for those who were scammed to organize and make that happen.
Nov 10 2017 4:49PM
1 0
profile picture
Kreech
Posts: 4178 - Karma: 3,024
Bloom.Get caught in the south with a bag of grass, go to jail for the rest of your life (especially if you're black).

Rip-off hundreds of people including kids who worked all summer long to buy your product....suffer no legal consequences.

Seriously wonder how this guy isn't in jail.


This. Also, if Bill was a black dude who lived in a low-income neighborhood, I don't think people would be going out of their way to make excuses about how he was such a nice guy who really meant well. Privilege. If he's such a great person, he wouldn't have stolen money from hundreds of the people in his community
Nov 10 2017 4:53PM
2 2
profile picture
Mkvackay
Posts: 1903 - Karma: 5,460
VanMelleBest of luck! It seemed like something was up financially leading up to this scam since he moved from a nice house in Grand Rapids to a MUCH smaller condo in Portage. I'm pretty sure he doesn't live there anymore and I don't have the address anymore but I know it's off of Oakland Dr, south of 94 by a elementary school (I believe) only a few miles from the highway.
Most probably won't believe it but Bill was always a good dude and always had the right intentions, even when doing Epic Planks so he had to of really really been screwed to pull something like this.

Still love an explaination for all this but most likely never will...


same dude
Nov 10 2017 5:31PM
3 0
profile picture
Murdock
Posts: 77 - Karma: 175
ill be back in Michigan in december as well, lets start a witch hunt!
Nov 10 2017 6:04PM
7 0
profile picture
Mr.Mitten
Posts: 1298 - Karma: 3,582
VanMelleMost probably won't believe it but Bill was always a good dude and always had the right intentions, even when doing Epic Planks so he had to of really really been screwed to pull something like this.

Still love an explaination for all this but most likely never will...


Feel it for sure, he was always a homie to me and all the guys, but this whole fiasco ruins all of it which sucks. I tried to call him today but his numbers off the line. An elusive one for sure, he needs to atone for this shit
Nov 10 2017 7:32PM
2 0
profile picture
JAHSHUA
Posts: 343 - Karma: 241
The guy from Momentum camps exemplified how to gracefully exit an industry when shit just ain't working out anymore....Bill should take a page from his book. Its not so much the fact that Revision didn't deliver, but that they ran & hid once shit hit the fan

**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2017 at 8:33:21pm
Nov 10 2017 8:32PM
1 1
profile picture
.otto.
Posts: 3493 - Karma: 12,892
JAHSHUAThe guy from Momentum camps exemplified how to gracefully exit an industry when shit just ain't working out anymore....Bill should take a page from his book. Its not so much the fact that Revision didn't deliver, but that they ran & hid once shit hit the fan

**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2017 at 8:33:21pm


what was the story about the guy at momentum camps? havent heard about that
Nov 12 2017 11:17PM
0 0
profile picture
Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
Park_RangerBatalla - pretty wild that Bill Wanrooy was invovled in that fiasco as well. The guy is scum and a cancer to this industry. It blows me away how anyone, whether you were a customer or internally associated with the company (team riders, filimers, office staff?, etc.), could have trusted this guy/Revision after what went down with Epic Planks and Batalla. It was soooo easy to see how bad of a company Revision was from day 1. I predicted their failure a few years ago.


im curious, what happened with batalla and Epic Planks? And how was bill involved?

seeking ur wisdom pls
Nov 14 2017 2:02AM
2 0
profile picture
zero*
Posts: 39 - Karma: 377
It's a pretty clouded situation overall. The basic gist is that the brands (Epic Planks/Batalla) had an ongoing working relationship and overlapping history. At some point Batalla were produced by epic planks. Towards the end Batalla were setting up their own ski factory and Epic Planks went out of business, I don't know for sure if those two things were causally related. I have heard rumours that some of the tooling for Batalla's factory was from Epic Planks. As I said, it's a clouded and proof of that is hard to come by because of a lawsuit...

What is known to be true, is that there was a lawsuit involving Bill Wanrooy (perhaps as part of 'Epic Planks' at the time) suing Batalla skis and winning. The settlement ultimately put Batalla skis out of business and Bill took the money from the suit to set up Revision.

Batalla were bankrupt and therefore unable to fulfill ski orders. The owners and brand were also legally bound by the settlement not to publicly comment on the details of the case. I've heard that is why customers of Batalla never got any explanation of goings on. It is also why the full story never came out, but has been alluded to in published stories about the whole saga.

I'm sure there is someone on here who knows the intricate details better than me, but that's the basic story from what I've heard.
Nov 14 2017 9:10AM
7 0
profile picture
zero*
Posts: 39 - Karma: 377
^ quote fail.
Emma_Watsonim curious, what happened with batalla and Epic Planks? And how was bill involved?

seeking ur wisdom pls
Nov 14 2017 9:11AM
3 0
profile picture
Lonely
Posts: 6601 - Karma: 59,672
Mr.MittenFeel it for sure, he was always a homie to me and all the guys, but this whole fiasco ruins all of it which sucks. I tried to call him today but his numbers off the line. An elusive one for sure, he needs to atone for this shit


I think I have his current one. I'll call later today.
Nov 14 2017 10:49AM
5 0
All times are Eastern (-4)