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Would you trust bear spray to protect you from grizzly bear attack in bear country?
I would never hunt a bear but if i was in bear country with known bear attacks on humans i would not trust bear spray.
so question, would a 6.5 creedmoor round give any protection? The round is pretty fast and would probably give a 2000 pound grizzly something to think about but it might not be enough especially if the bear is angry and focused on attack.
in a perfect world tho i would just buy a 375 h&h.
I've heard bear spray is often more effective than most people panic shooting a gun. If I could, I would bring both. Currently I don't have a gun that a bear would even feel, tho, so bear spray will have to do
I implore you to research stopping power. If you're actually going into grizzly country and think that a fast bullet is what you want, this shows a fundamental lack of understanding regarding both ballistics and bears.
I've spent significant time in extremely remote grizzly country, places where the odds the bear has encountered a human before are effectively zero. I know that I can handle a firearm quite well and made the decision to carry a rifle rather than bear spray. For some people bear spray is a good choice. For others, a firearm is a good choice. I settled on a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun with Buffalo Bore bullets. I didn't ever need it but I felt very secure having it. Much more secure than if I was carrying bear spray.
sqeellicbicGive us the full story please. What were you doing leading up to it?
Which full story? I guess I can tell both
For the one where I deployed the bear spray, I was hiking Heavens Peak in Glacier National Park, with two friends. If any of you are familiar with the mountain, you know that it is a decently long bushwhack to the ridge. We were about 3/4 of the way through the bushwhack and we stopped because one of my friends was getting a blister. We were just off the side of the "trail" and I walked up maybe 150 feet to look around. I was on top of a small boulder and I looked to my left and there was a grizzly cub about 30 feet away. I yelled at it to alert it so the mother would know I'm there (this is what you are supposed to do). Turns out, the mama bear was a few yards away, and when I yelled I scared it off. I walked back down towards my group, told them what happened, packed up, and kept going on the hike. Maybe 15 minutes later we hear something running away from us, and then the mama griz charging at us, we try and grab our bear sprays, but it turns out it was a blunt charge and the bear turns around. At this point, the bear is maybe 30 feet from us, and I am the only one with their bear spray out. It charges again and as it is getting closer I spray it at it. No joke, as soon as the bear got close to where I sprayed it, it stopped immediately and turned around. We all had bear spray in our eyes and noses, so we turned around and headed back to the car. This is a pretty standard bear encounter, not really much of a disaster.
Bear spray works, you can trust it.
As for what happened with my friend, it a pretty scary story.
He was visting home from college, and he and his dad were hunting. They were walking across a log a few feet high, one of them looks down, and there is a mother bear with 2 cubs below them. It gets up on its hind legs and literally swats my friend's dad off the log. He scrambles to his feet and tries to make some distance and cover his face/neck. The bear gets on top of him and starts mauling him. My friend grabs his rifle and jumps down from the log, he shoots the bear once and the bear turns to him and charges at him. The bear tackles him and starts attacking him. His dad grabs his rifle and tries to get a shot on the bear, but he is worried that he could accidentally shoot his son. He finally gets a clear shot, but the bear doesn't move and keeps attacking him. He shoots the bear again, and the bear stops attacking my friend and focuses back on my dad. He says at this point he could see the bear was injured, but it still charges at him and starts attacking him. At this point, my friend had already been torn up a lot, and was struggling to move. He was able to get up and shoot the bear again, but the bear was still not relenting. It turned back to him, and literally mid-stride, it falls. It keeps trying to attack them, but every time it tries to get up its rear legs give out. They literally crawl away, and call 911 as they try to do some first aid. They are evacuated via helicopter and taken to the hospital.
I don't remember their exact injuried, but my friend's back wounds were so deep you could see his collar bone in some spots. His dad lost a lot of movement in his arm, and they both spent a while in the hospital.
6.5 Creedmoor is a really accurate, efficient round. But I would never trust that to stop a pissed off Grizzly. I'm not even comfortable using that for elk since it's kind of borderline. If I were in your shoes I'd be researching bear spray and high powered revolvers as better options for bear defense.
Bended_ToenailWhich full story? I guess I can tell both
For the one where I deployed the bear spray, I was hiking Heavens Peak in Glacier National Park, with two friends. If any of you are familiar with the mountain, you know that it is a decently long bushwhack to the ridge. We were about 3/4 of the way through the bushwhack and we stopped because one of my friends was getting a blister. We were just off the side of the "trail" and I walked up maybe 150 feet to look around. I was on top of a small boulder and I looked to my left and there was a grizzly cub about 30 feet away. I yelled at it to alert it so the mother would know I'm there (this is what you are supposed to do). Turns out, the mama bear was a few yards away, and when I yelled I scared it off. I walked back down towards my group, told them what happened, packed up, and kept going on the hike. Maybe 15 minutes later we hear something running away from us, and then the mama griz charging at us, we try and grab our bear sprays, but it turns out it was a blunt charge and the bear turns around. At this point, the bear is maybe 30 feet from us, and I am the only one with their bear spray out. It charges again and as it is getting closer I spray it at it. No joke, as soon as the bear got close to where I sprayed it, it stopped immediately and turned around. We all had bear spray in our eyes and noses, so we turned around and headed back to the car. This is a pretty standard bear encounter, not really much of a disaster.
Bear spray works, you can trust it.
As for what happened with my friend, it a pretty scary story.
He was visting home from college, and he and his dad were hunting. They were walking across a log a few feet high, one of them looks down, and there is a mother bear with 2 cubs below them. It gets up on its hind legs and literally swats my friend's dad off the log. He scrambles to his feet and tries to make some distance and cover his face/neck. The bear gets on top of him and starts mauling him. My friend grabs his rifle and jumps down from the log, he shoots the bear once and the bear turns to him and charges at him. The bear tackles him and starts attacking him. His dad grabs his rifle and tries to get a shot on the bear, but he is worried that he could accidentally shoot his son. He finally gets a clear shot, but the bear doesn't move and keeps attacking him. He shoots the bear again, and the bear stops attacking my friend and focuses back on my dad. He says at this point he could see the bear was injured, but it still charges at him and starts attacking him. At this point, my friend had already been torn up a lot, and was struggling to move. He was able to get up and shoot the bear again, but the bear was still not relenting. It turned back to him, and literally mid-stride, it falls. It keeps trying to attack them, but every time it tries to get up its rear legs give out. They literally crawl away, and call 911 as they try to do some first aid. They are evacuated via helicopter and taken to the hospital.
I don't remember their exact injuried, but my friend's back wounds were so deep you could see his collar bone in some spots. His dad lost a lot of movement in his arm, and they both spent a while in the hospital.
I find it coincidental that your 2 stories happen to both be a nice package of 1 story promoting the effectiveness of bear spray and 1 story pretending guns dont work
you dont even mention the caliber of the rifle, which is kind of an important fact to leave out.
if these stories are true then damn, but considering these 2 stories make up a literal wet dream of environmentalists, im a bit suspicious.
DolansLebensraumI find it coincidental that your 2 stories happen to both be a nice package of 1 story promoting the effectiveness of bear spray and 1 story pretending guns dont work
you dont even mention the caliber of the rifle, which is kind of an important fact to leave out.
if these stories are true then damn, but considering these 2 stories make up a literal wet dream of environmentalists, im a bit suspicious.
I see where you're coming from. I'm definitely not a gun enthusiast, I've done some hunting but not really into it.
I don't necessarily think that bear spray would've worked better for the second story. From what I've heard, when a bear is already attacking you, bear spray is much less effective.
It's not "pretending guns don't work" like you say, because the gun did work, but they were attacked nonetheless. I'm not saying that bear spray would've prevented that, because they were within feet of the bear when they noticed it. As for me not mentioning the caliber of the rifle, I'm just not a gun guy and have no clue.
It depends on the situation, I've carried a gun before as bear defense when I was up in Alaska, but I always carried bear spray too.
I know a guy who was in the NPS and found a bear stashing the body of a guy who had been killed by a griz while carrying a rifle and bear spray. He had both shot and sprayed the bear, but when the bear wants to kill you, it's most likely the bear will kill you.
I live in prime grizzly habitat, have had close encounters with a few and always carry bear spray. It's light, cheap, easy to use in a panic and you don't have to be as accurate with it for it to be effective. There have been numerous close calls around here where it's proved effective in stopping attacks.
Bended_ToenailI see where you're coming from. I'm definitely not a gun enthusiast, I've done some hunting but not really into it.
I don't necessarily think that bear spray would've worked better for the second story. From what I've heard, when a bear is already attacking you, bear spray is much less effective.
It's not "pretending guns don't work" like you say, because the gun did work, but they were attacked nonetheless. I'm not saying that bear spray would've prevented that, because they were within feet of the bear when they noticed it. As for me not mentioning the caliber of the rifle, I'm just not a gun guy and have no clue.
It depends on the situation, I've carried a gun before as bear defense when I was up in Alaska, but I always carried bear spray too.
I know a guy who was in the NPS and found a bear stashing the body of a guy who had been killed by a griz while carrying a rifle and bear spray. He had both shot and sprayed the bear, but when the bear wants to kill you, it's most likely the bear will kill you.
I think thats why there are rounds like the 375 h&h round. For a bear to continue attacking those guys after being shot 3 times is pretty suggestive they werent using a gun capable enough for brown bear protection. The amount of energy in a 375 h&h round is enough to punch through an elephants skull, so im pretty sure a head or body shot would take a legitimate fuck and apply it to the bear; even if the bear kept attacking you, it would be a matter of time before the bear collapsed from blood loss/trauma.
I think a 50 cal round is another example of a round that would simply end a bears attack with a body shot or head shot, no questions asked.
i dont know why guns interest me so much. I dont want to kill animals, and ive never hunted, but i think the idea of a weapons protection ability in the wild is pretty cool. Just ballistics science or whatever its called is really interesting.
gorbdawggybrentget a 44 magnum or a 1911 or somthing that shoots 45
If i lived full time in brown bear territory i think i would just have a holstered desert eagle .50 bc if a bear ambushed me i would need a pistol for the close quarters. Also you cant just carry a rifle with you while you are chopping wood or taking out the trash etc.
Then i would add stopping power and sleight of hand.
Dolan, I don't mean any disrespect but it's clear you do not know what you're talking about. Yes, 375 H&H is a great round. However, that is simply the caliber. The bullet selection makes a huge amount of difference. At the most basic level, there are "softs" and "solids". When hunting Africa, where the 375 H&H excels, "softs" are very common on plains game (antelope, etc). "Solids" are the preferred choice when hunting an animal that can fight back. Even after choosing soft vs solid, the load matters as does the actual bullet choice. Do some reading on this. If you're serious about purchasing a rifle or handgun or even shotgun for bear defense, it is on you to fully understand that which you are buying.
For instance, when I selected the Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun as my bear defense weapon, I thoroughly examined all of the different loads from the different manufacturers. I purchased some Cowboy Action Loads to get a general feel for the rifle. They're fun to shoot, fairly inexpensive, and don't kick much. Then I went with a specific Buffalo Bore load that is designed to do exactly what I wanted. They're very pricey per round and kick like a mule.
You mentioned the .500 S&W handgun. Yes, some folks tout this as a good bear defense gun. I'd argue against it. Have you ever shot a truly large caliber handgun? It's incredibly difficult to be accurate, the recoil is intense, and good luck staying on your target for a second shot. You will be rattled from pulling the trigger just once and won't be able to acquire the proper sight picture on the bear for subsequent shots. You'll also be in such a rush to get off that first shot that you won't be able to get a proper grip on the pistol, making everything worse.
DolansLebensraumIf i lived full time in brown bear territory i think i would just have a holstered desert eagle .50 bc if a bear ambushed me i would need a pistol for the close quarters. Also you cant just carry a rifle with you while you are chopping wood or taking out the trash etc.
Then i would add stopping power and sleight of hand.
did you just call the desert eagle a pistol for close quarters
iFlipDolan, I don't mean any disrespect but it's clear you do not know what you're talking about. Yes, 375 H&H is a great round. However, that is simply the caliber. The bullet selection makes a huge amount of difference. At the most basic level, there are "softs" and "solids". When hunting Africa, where the 375 H&H excels, "softs" are very common on plains game (antelope, etc). "Solids" are the preferred choice when hunting an animal that can fight back. Even after choosing soft vs solid, the load matters as does the actual bullet choice. Do some reading on this. If you're serious about purchasing a rifle or handgun or even shotgun for bear defense, it is on you to fully understand that which you are buying.
For instance, when I selected the Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun as my bear defense weapon, I thoroughly examined all of the different loads from the different manufacturers. I purchased some Cowboy Action Loads to get a general feel for the rifle. They're fun to shoot, fairly inexpensive, and don't kick much. Then I went with a specific Buffalo Bore load that is designed to do exactly what I wanted. They're very pricey per round and kick like a mule.
You mentioned the .500 S&W handgun. Yes, some folks tout this as a good bear defense gun. I'd argue against it. Have you ever shot a truly large caliber handgun? It's incredibly difficult to be accurate, the recoil is intense, and good luck staying on your target for a second shot. You will be rattled from pulling the trigger just once and won't be able to acquire the proper sight picture on the bear for subsequent shots. You'll also be in such a rush to get off that first shot that you won't be able to get a proper grip on the pistol, making everything worse.
I was mentioning the desert eagle not the s&w 500. But from what i understand the desert eagle probably has a comparably huge recoil so i get your point. I was just saying that if i lived in bear country, i would want something with me at all times that i could use. If i was going to my car to get something or taking out the garbage i probably would be too lazy to carry a shotgun or rifle while doing it.
but the marlin 45 70 looks cool.
what are the stats of the round you use? Bc as is seen below there is alot of variation of the muzzle energy of different rounds.
also is it quick to reload? or are you usually only afforded 1 shot if a bear charges?
and yes i acknowledge i dont know much about guns other than a rare aspect of the projectile science here and there that ive poached from wikipedia.
I Caried bear spray on one hike and coincidentally I saw a grizzly 30-50 ' away and completely forgot tge bear spray but luckily he/she didn't even see my so I never Caried it since. At what point do you use it when it's too late or because it's there wich could piss it off and fuck you up anyway
abar.If @Jerry.at.tricks[/tag] can protect himself from a black bear attack simply by saying "shoo" you can probably get a grizzly to fuck off using bear spray
All these pussies talking about guns to protect them from bears. All you need is a couple beers and a little bit of courage.
With that being said I do have a Marlin 45-70 SBL for the bigger brown guys. A good hard cast bullet will do the trick too.
Also to answer the OP’s question... Don’t be a moron. 6.5 creedmore is built for speed and accuracy at long range. Has very little short range stopping power. Plus, are you going to be relying on a long ass rifle with a scope for short range accusation if a brown bear charges you? I sure fucking hope not. Get a short barreled shotgun or 45/70 with open sights. Nothing quicker to get on target with at short range than open sights. If a long gun doesn’t tickle your gooch, I’d be looking at 44 or 45 revolver. 10mm Glock would do the trick too and you would have 16 rounds in that mag to poke holes in that bear of yours.
Ive also sprayed bears with spray only to watch them come back 10 minutes later even more pissed off and angry. Bear spray is crap, especially if its windy.
But like I said earlier, you don’t need a gun or spray. Just grow a pair and yell “Boo!” Shits worked every time for me.
I stared down a bear when camping in Banff National Park with a can of bear spray when I was with my Wife years ago. I came out of my tent and turned around and there was a big black bear about 3ft behind the tent. I quickly slipped into the tent and got my spray and came out and kept saying, "Hey Bear.... Hey Bear...". It kind of turned into a standoff where we just looked at each other and my Wife got her stuff and I had her walk behind me and we both just calmly walked away. I was waiting for him to make a move to spray him but since he didnt do anything I didnt deploy it.
So we retreated and the bear tore our campsite apart for the next 30 min while I waited for the Ranger to show up. He finally came and the bear had gone into the woods. So we picked up the campsite and the Ranger was posting signs then suddenly the bear came back out of nowhere. I blew my emergency whistle and the Ranger cam flying up with his truck and ran out with a shotgun with rubber slugs and he shot it twice with my right behind him still holding the Spray. The bear flinched and ran back into the woods.
At that point we took all our stuff and shoved it into my Subaru and drove back to Sandpoint.
In any case, I feel much safer with Spray than a gun. Bear's smell is like 100x that of a human and it will deter and blind them. Unless you had a 12 gauge with deer slugs a 9mm etc will probably not kill it and would only piss it off.
Anyway pics or it didnt happen:
(Some other camper happened to have a DSLR with a telephoto and got some crazy shots)
SuspiciousFishI stared down a bear when camping in Banff National Park with a can of bear spray when I was with my Wife years ago. I came out of my tent and turned around and there was a big black bear about 3ft behind the tent. I quickly slipped into the tent and got my spray and came out and kept saying, "Hey Bear.... Hey Bear...". It kind of turned into a standoff where we just looked at each other and my Wife got her stuff and I had her walk behind me and we both just calmly walked away. I was waiting for him to make a move to spray him but since he didnt do anything I didnt deploy it.
So we retreated and the bear tore our campsite apart for the next 30 min while I waited for the Ranger to show up. He finally came and the bear had gone into the woods. So we picked up the campsite and the Ranger was posting signs then suddenly the bear came back out of nowhere. I blew my emergency whistle and the Ranger cam flying up with his truck and ran out with a shotgun with rubber slugs and he shot it twice with my right behind him still holding the Spray. The bear flinched and ran back into the woods.
At that point we took all our stuff and shoved it into my Subaru and drove back to Sandpoint.
In any case, I feel much safer with Spray than a gun. Bear's smell is like 100x that of a human and it will deter and blind them. Unless you had a 12 gauge with deer slugs a 9mm etc will probably not kill it and would only piss it off.
Anyway pics or it didnt happen:
(Some other camper happened to have a DSLR with a telephoto and got some crazy shots)
beating the dead horse. But yeah the 6.5 Creemore is a good round, but not for bear. It would laugh while chewing on your face. When my dad worked in bear country they had 10g slugs. Bear spray was the first grab though.
DE or the SW 500 are a huge round....but you are definitely not going to be able to fire a second shot accurately. Ever felt the kick on one? Massive and the recovery time to second shot is huge. Bears are fast. Extremely fast. you need to be able to have a quick and solid second shot. Not to mention that it's a bear running through trees and brush at 35 mph. You are going to miss your first shot.
snowmosexualWhat a beautiful bear. Glad it just got some bad bruising and not a wall of pepper or a bullet.
The funny thing is if you look at the second to last photo you can see the marshmallow still on his mouth. The bear tore open the bag and ate most of them. He also mobbed down an entire Tillamok block of cheese from Costco. We had just finished lunch and were changing in the tent when it came so I didnt have a chance to get it al back in the bear locker.
SuspiciousFishThe funny thing is if you look at the second to last photo you can see the marshmallow still on his mouth. The bear tore open the bag and ate most of them. He also mobbed down an entire Tillamok block of cheese from Costco. We had just finished lunch and were changing in the tent when it came so I didnt have a chance to get it al back in the bear locker.
I was going to say thats a lot of food for buddy to find. Not surprised he came.....but that makes more sense
DolansLebensraumI find it coincidental that your 2 stories happen to both be a nice package of 1 story promoting the effectiveness of bear spray and 1 story pretending guns dont work
you dont even mention the caliber of the rifle, which is kind of an important fact to leave out.
if these stories are true then damn, but considering these 2 stories make up a literal wet dream of environmentalists, im a bit suspicious.
Come to Montana, Dolan. I'll gladly take you into griz country. Where I hunt is crawling with them. Here is the hunting story. You need to be so fucking accurate with a gun and even then you can be fucked. I carry a 10mm but your first defense is always bear spray.
The man that was killed recently here in MT by a griz was an experienced backcountry guide. Sometimes you die, even with bear spray and a gun. It happens.
Bended_ToenailI see where you're coming from. I'm definitely not a gun enthusiast, I've done some hunting but not really into it.
I don't necessarily think that bear spray would've worked better for the second story. From what I've heard, when a bear is already attacking you, bear spray is much less effective.
It's not "pretending guns don't work" like you say, because the gun did work, but they were attacked nonetheless. I'm not saying that bear spray would've prevented that, because they were within feet of the bear when they noticed it. As for me not mentioning the caliber of the rifle, I'm just not a gun guy and have no clue.
It depends on the situation, I've carried a gun before as bear defense when I was up in Alaska, but I always carried bear spray too.
I know a guy who was in the NPS and found a bear stashing the body of a guy who had been killed by a griz while carrying a rifle and bear spray. He had both shot and sprayed the bear, but when the bear wants to kill you, it's most likely the bear will kill you.
From what I've seen from my bear-experienced Alaska and Montana bros, they seem to all carry bear spray and a chest carried revolver with serious stopping power. I've never really gotten into the subject as bears aren't a huge threat around me, but a bolt action rifle in close would not be my first choice. A riled up bear probably wouldn't even notice a well placed shot for a while, even deer can run a good way before succumbing to a lung shot. On top of that, a long gun gets unwieldy as distance closes. When you are talking about stopping an animal like that, I imagine you would need something that put a huge amount of energy out and dumps it into the first few inches of impact.
With what I know right now I think I would use bear spray to ward off a too-curious-for-comfort bear I couldn't get away from or a cougar. If it looked more serious than that, I would draw a revolver in something like .44 Magnum. I doubt you could try both options before the bear was on top of you from what I've seen in taped encounters. Maaaaaaybe I would carry a 10mm semi-auto pistol just for the advantage of multiple shots before getting into the shit, but I would have to ask an expert on that.
Bottom line on this I would avoid getting mauled by a grizzly if you can manage it, it sounds fucking terrible. Given the choice I think I'd take on a mountain lion and at least have a weight advantage to rage with. Grizzly scares the fuck out of me.
ElcheapoI Caried bear spray on one hike and coincidentally I saw a grizzly 30-50 ' away and completely forgot tge bear spray but luckily he/she didn't even see my so I never Caried it since. At what point do you use it when it's too late or because it's there wich could piss it off and fuck you up anyway
Jerry.at.tricksAll these pussies talking about guns to protect them from bears. All you need is a couple beers and a little bit of courage.
With that being said I do have a Marlin 45-70 SBL for the bigger brown guys. A good hard cast bullet will do the trick too.
Also to answer the OP’s question... Don’t be a moron. 6.5 creedmore is built for speed and accuracy at long range. Has very little short range stopping power. Plus, are you going to be relying on a long ass rifle with a scope for short range accusation if a brown bear charges you? I sure fucking hope not. Get a short barreled shotgun or 45/70 with open sights. Nothing quicker to get on target with at short range than open sights. If a long gun doesn’t tickle your gooch, I’d be looking at 44 or 45 revolver. 10mm Glock would do the trick too and you would have 16 rounds in that mag to poke holes in that bear of yours.
Ive also sprayed bears with spray only to watch them come back 10 minutes later even more pissed off and angry. Bear spray is crap, especially if its windy.
But like I said earlier, you don’t need a gun or spray. Just grow a pair and yell “Boo!” Shits worked every time for me.
While the 6.5 Creedmoor is more of a long rang round for accuracy. Stopping power against a bear? No.
the guy in this video is pretty cool. I guess then a 500 s&w would be the best then if you wanted a 50 cal pistol?
SuspiciousFishI stared down a bear when camping in Banff National Park with a can of bear spray when I was with my Wife years ago. I came out of my tent and turned around and there was a big black bear about 3ft behind the tent. I quickly slipped into the tent and got my spray and came out and kept saying, "Hey Bear.... Hey Bear...". It kind of turned into a standoff where we just looked at each other and my Wife got her stuff and I had her walk behind me and we both just calmly walked away. I was waiting for him to make a move to spray him but since he didnt do anything I didnt deploy it.
So we retreated and the bear tore our campsite apart for the next 30 min while I waited for the Ranger to show up. He finally came and the bear had gone into the woods. So we picked up the campsite and the Ranger was posting signs then suddenly the bear came back out of nowhere. I blew my emergency whistle and the Ranger cam flying up with his truck and ran out with a shotgun with rubber slugs and he shot it twice with my right behind him still holding the Spray. The bear flinched and ran back into the woods.
At that point we took all our stuff and shoved it into my Subaru and drove back to Sandpoint.
In any case, I feel much safer with Spray than a gun. Bear's smell is like 100x that of a human and it will deter and blind them. Unless you had a 12 gauge with deer slugs a 9mm etc will probably not kill it and would only piss it off.
Anyway pics or it didnt happen:
(Some other camper happened to have a DSLR with a telephoto and got some crazy shots)
That looks more like a black bear but i guess some grizzlies have darker fur?
Profahoben_212beating the dead horse. But yeah the 6.5 Creemore is a good round, but not for bear. It would laugh while chewing on your face. When my dad worked in bear country they had 10g slugs. Bear spray was the first grab though.
DE or the SW 500 are a huge round....but you are definitely not going to be able to fire a second shot accurately. Ever felt the kick on one? Massive and the recovery time to second shot is huge. Bears are fast. Extremely fast. you need to be able to have a quick and solid second shot. Not to mention that it's a bear running through trees and brush at 35 mph. You are going to miss your first shot.
10g slugs you mean shotgun slugs right?
TheMoostafian10mm glock 20 with 225gr Buffalo bore ammo is the best pistol for bear defense.
Why does adding 1 mm (going from 9mm pistol round to 10mm pistol round) make such a big difference? In my mind it seems that if you simply increased all the dimensions of a 9mm round by 10%, it wouldnt make much difference ballistics wise... i mean it will make a difference but i dont understand how if a brown bear laughs at a 9mm glock they dont also laugh at a 10mm glock.
safarisamCome to Montana, Dolan. I'll gladly take you into griz country. Where I hunt is crawling with them. Here is the hunting story. You need to be so fucking accurate with a gun and even then you can be fucked. I carry a 10mm but your first defense is always bear spray.
The man that was killed recently here in MT by a griz was an experienced backcountry guide. Sometimes you die, even with bear spray and a gun. It happens.
Jesus
Dustin.From what I've seen from my bear-experienced Alaska and Montana bros, they seem to all carry bear spray and a chest carried revolver with serious stopping power. I've never really gotten into the subject as bears aren't a huge threat around me, but a bolt action rifle in close would not be my first choice. A riled up bear probably wouldn't even notice a well placed shot for a while, even deer can run a good way before succumbing to a lung shot. On top of that, a long gun gets unwieldy as distance closes. When you are talking about stopping an animal like that, I imagine you would need something that put a huge amount of energy out and dumps it into the first few inches of impact.
With what I know right now I think I would use bear spray to ward off a too-curious-for-comfort bear I couldn't get away from or a cougar. If it looked more serious than that, I would draw a revolver in something like .44 Magnum. I doubt you could try both options before the bear was on top of you from what I've seen in taped encounters. Maaaaaaybe I would carry a 10mm semi-auto pistol just for the advantage of multiple shots before getting into the shit, but I would have to ask an expert on that.
Bottom line on this I would avoid getting mauled by a grizzly if you can manage it, it sounds fucking terrible. Given the choice I think I'd take on a mountain lion and at least have a weight advantage to rage with. Grizzly scares the fuck out of me.
Yeah that movie “the edge” with anthony hopkins and alec baldwin kind of makes it apparent how fucking scary grizzly attacks can get.
i mean honestly i dont know why there arent guides out there who roll with a fucking kalashnikov
Over a gun, yes. First few comments already said it perfectly.
Adrenaline is powerful, bears are fast, they can inflict a lot of damage quickly even while wounded. Bear spray generally does and by most people could probably be deployed more effectively than a gun.
Pretty sure big game hunters and bear hunters get killed not infrequently. Just doesn't make the news because nobody gives a fuck--man gets killed by Rhino while on a Rhino hunt? Guy deserved it--nobody gives a fuck. Hiker deploys bear spray and still gets mauled/killed? That's the kind of stuff that makes news as more people can relate to a hiker than a big game hunter
DolansLebensraumWhy does adding 1 mm (going from 9mm pistol round to 10mm pistol round) make such a big difference? In my mind it seems that if you simply increased all the dimensions of a 9mm round by 10%, it wouldnt make much difference ballistics wise... i mean it will make a difference but i dont understand how if a brown bear laughs at a 9mm glock they dont also laugh at a 10mm glock.
It's not just the dimensions of the projectile being increased (although that is a big part of why it has so much more stopping power). The volume of the casing is considerably larger (almost twice the case capacity). Basically, 10mm has the potential to shoot much larger projectiles at equal or higher speed than 9mm. This results in way higher ft.lbs of energy on impact.
For instance, 220gr buffalo bore 10mm has a velocity of 1200fps and 700ft.lbs of force. Most 9mm is around 120gr with a velocity of around 1000fps and 200-400 ft.lbs at most.
I have a several friends who work for USFS on trail crew and are in the backcountry for long periods of time, they all carry bear spray. All of the trail users I've seen who carry a gun still carry bear spray. I think that is pretty telling.
If you are going to put your trust in a gun that is powerful enough to stop a bear you better be damn well able to handle that gun. I'ts going to do no good if you fire at a charging grizzly and cant hit it.
The most important thing is to be simply be aware and have whatever means of protection you choose easily accessible and know exactly how to use it. I cannot count the number of times I have seen a bear spray canister stuffed in the pocket of a backpack with other items. Get a decent holster, if you have a surprise encounter you wont have time to undo your pack and dig into a zippered pocket. If you are on a mountain bike don't use one of those stupid bottle cage bear spray holders, if you crash or have to ditch your bike then you are screwed.
I was hiking at a very popular trail, Palisade Falls in Hyalite Canyon, in the peak of tourist season and when I got to the falls I noticed a discharged bear spray canister on the ground next to a small nook at the base of the rock wall. I thought it was kinda weird given that there were shitloads of people but not a mob of people running away from a bear. I picked it up to take it with me and dispose of it and when I turned around there was a dissapointed looking man and upon seeing the spray in my hands dangling by the flouro orange safety he said "I'll take that." I then looked down to where the talus meets the end of the trail and see a young boy hanging off the edge of a small footbridge, sobbing and screaming and dunking his head in the water. His mom was standing next to him looking embarrassed with her head in her hands. Apparently he wanted to test out the bear spray and thought it would be a good idea to spray it into the wall. Pretty funny interaction. Moral of the story, don't be a dumbass and don't give a stupid kid bear spray unless they are responsible enough to understand that it is strong enough to deter a grizzly.
TheMoostafian10mm glock 20 with 225gr Buffalo bore ammo is the best pistol for bear defense.
No, it is not. A semi-auto like the glock is not reliable when in rough country for extended times. If I'm going through the brush in the rain and snow, getting it dirty, I definitely cannot trust it to cycle reliably. A revolver is a much better choice.
Beyond all the knowledge being dropped in this thread, and the fact that you need a ridiculous amount of training, or luck to be effective with a handgun against a bear, I also choose bear spray for the convenience of it. When I am traveling in griz country, I'm usually trying to move pretty light and fast because I have alpine objectives.
A can of bear spray weighs about 300g. The Desert Eagle you (hilariously) mentioned weighs 2000 (plus amo). And it's bulkier and more challenging to carry in a manner that is safe, but also keeps it handy so that when your hypothetical bloodthirsty bear charges you can get it out and use it, instead of pissing yourself while you fight the buckle on your chest harness. I can carry bear spray on the shoulder strap of my pack, in a water bottle cage on my bike, or even strapped to the handlebars. I can even just carry the spray in one hand on runs where I'm not even carrying a pack. Contrary to what COD may have you believe, it's no fun jogging around the hills with an Eagle in one hand. And open carrying on more popular trails broadcasts your misguided enthusiasm for firearms to other backcountry users, and can color your interactions with them.
Finally, there's the safety aspect of it. I grew up in gun culture, I've been shooting since I was old enough to learn muzzle control, and even so, it takes a lot of energy to make sure I'm carrying and using firearms safely. Just because it's second nature doesn't mean it doesn't take energy. I want to spend that energy getting to cool places, not trying to make sure that I don't shoot myself or a friend. I can store my bear spray on a shelf by the front door so it's always handy and I never forget to grab it. No responsible gun owner would store a loaded weapon as accessibly as you can bear spray.
Bear spray is cheap, it works, and it takes less training to the point that even cosplaying "tactical" wannabes can use it effectively.
"Statistically, bear spray is more effective at deterring a charging bear. In a study done in 2008 (Smith et. al. 2008), researchers analyzed 83 bear spray incidents (61 brown bears, 20 black bears and two polar bear). Red Pepper spray proved over 90% successful on stopping the bear’s “undesirable” activity. 98% of people involved in these incidents were unharmed by the bear. However, fourteen percent of the incidents resulted in negative side effects upon the human (they were effected by the spray) and three percent left the user incapacitated.
In similar study on firearms (Smith et. al. 2012), they were effective 84% with handguns and 76% with rifles to stop bears from undesirable behavior. The study analyzed 269 bear-human conflicts in Alaska from 1883-2009. The study said, “firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used firearms or not.” Basically, firearms didn’t statistically keep people from getting injured by bears. This means that people shot bears that still attacked them. They concluded by saying, “Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country.” (Copyright The Wildlife Society). I think we would all like to think we are “proficient” but the truth is, even as hunters, we all aren’t. Firearm accuracy in the heat of a fast, stressful and real-life situation isn’t easily tested.
The arguments against bear spray typically revolve around the wind blowing the spray back into your face and not hitting the bear. This is a legit concern, but it would be rare that this would happen. It’s like stacking two highly unlikely scenarios on top of each, yes it could happen, but it probably won’t. However, it is possible for bear spray to not affect a bear, such as happened with Montana resident Todd Orr. He sprayed a sow that attacked him, but it didn’t stop her. He sustained some serious, but not life threatening injuries. In his words, “Bear spray doesn’t always work, but it’s better than nothing.”'