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Has anyone else read this article? A good read and something to reflect on. Interesting reading the authors comments on the “gangster” era 2007-2011ish in skiing.
https://www.powder.com/stories/no-skiing-isnt-a-welcome-place-for-people-of-color-yet/
thoughts?
I would tend to agree with the author in the sense that skiing probably does have a racism problem - but I don't think that's unique to the sport. You look at what's going on the US whether in everyday life and the racism in skiing, in my humble opinion, is just a symptom of that.
This sport has an ever-growing accessibility issue that dispraportionaly affects people of color - in my opinion, because of the financial limitations of the sport - the same financial limitations that disproportionately affect BIPOC.
I'm not sure if the 88% statistic is accurate, but its obvious that BIPOC are among a sea of white people at a ski resort.
Not sure how accurate this is either, but i'd have to imagine that because BIPOC have a small number of role models at the highest level of the sport, it gets less exposure? Just a thought.
Definitely an interesting article, It's quite refreshing to hear the perspective from someone who actually is actually involved in the industry, and a true freeskier. In order for freesking culture to become more inclusive of all races/orientations/etc. the numbers game needs to shift, 88% white is a ridiculous figure. As that happens it's up to all of us to ensure that we are receptive and excited for the cultural contribution that BIPOC people bring to freeskiing. (How the hell do you conjugate BIPOC by the way??)
Unfortunately I can't imagine a world where resorts work towards being inclusive, and while there have been many great nonprofits popping up as of late to get disadvantaged individuals on the hill there's no world where they have the funding to initiate widespread change as of now. In my eyes the solution would be for the big conglomerates (ie: Amer) to support nonprofits so they have access to the gear needed to initiate change. If done the right way ski companies would be expanding their loyal customer base from the ground up, incentivizing them to deploy marketing campaigns that are targeted towards BIPOC that aren't based around virtue signaling and company "values" and in turn bringing more BIPOC people to the sport.
That's my .02, if I said something that you think is super off base I'd love to hear about it.
Great read, valid points, interesting statistic (88% white.) I feel like this is more influenced by economic status than ethnicity or even culture. A pair of skis, boots, goggles, outerwear plus the tickets/passes can be quite a hefty bill. That's not to say that the two are completely unrelated, but it's definitely not outward racism that creates the homogeneity that we see on the slopes.
asiansatanGreat read, valid points, interesting statistic (88% white.) I feel like this is more influenced by economic status than ethnicity or even culture. A pair of skis, boots, goggles, outerwear plus the tickets/passes can be quite a hefty bill. That's not to say that the two are completely unrelated, but it's definitely not outward racism that creates the homogeneity that we see on the slopes.
Can I just say that being someone who is not white, and is still a skier, it really genuinely makes me happy that people here are agreeing with the points being made? When Powder posted this article on Facebook, a WHOLE lot of people (majority being white) were commenting really hateful shit, and not really understanding the point of the article. Obviously skiers aren’t racist people, but race within skiing is something that should be addressed given how little POC there are. Thanks guys for making my fucking year, this is one hell of a community
My big take on this:
Now what do we do?
Obviously, not saying the N Word is a great start, but you want to talk about people not being able to use certain songs because they're 'thug', and the skier is white? I mean come on, you'd be taking away a major source of inspiration for a guy like Henrik Harlaut. I love bumping some Wu Tang, or Biggie when I'm skiing, you're saying I shouldn't listen to that? I'd say there's a definite overt racism from a lot of old white people, but I think most younger white people are not racists like that. I've always tried to treat everyone with the exact same level of respect they give me, and I don't know as a 'white' person what I can do differently. I don't give a shit what color anyone's skin is, just how they are as a person. I do think that racism as a whole will work itself out as people of our generation move into positions of power. We're seeing it already. No way no how, would AOC have ever been anything maybe even 20-30 years ago.
We can do all we can to make skiing more inclusive by calling out racism where we see it. His story about a coach calling him a slanty eyed devil is absolutely inexcusable, that's what we should be calling out, and then if you have anyone making assumptions based on skin color, or anything like that, yeah, tell them that's just not acceptable.
BigPurpleSkiSuitMy big take on this:Now what do we do?
Obviously, not saying the N Word is a great start, but you want to talk about people not being able to use certain songs because they're 'thug', and the skier is white? I mean come on, you'd be taking away a major source of inspiration for a guy like Henrik Harlaut. I love bumping some Wu Tang, or Biggie when I'm skiing, you're saying I shouldn't listen to that? I'd say there's a definite overt racism from a lot of old white people, but I think most younger white people are not racists like that. I've always tried to treat everyone with the exact same level of respect they give me, and I don't know as a 'white' person what I can do differently. I don't give a shit what color anyone's skin is, just how they are as a person. I do think that racism as a whole will work itself out as people of our generation move into positions of power. We're seeing it already. No way no how, would AOC have ever been anything maybe even 20-30 years ago.
We can do all we can to make skiing more inclusive by calling out racism where we see it. His story about a coach calling him a slanty eyed devil is absolutely inexcusable, that's what we should be calling out, and then if you have anyone making assumptions based on skin color, or anything like that, yeah, tell them that's just not acceptable.
This is facts, I’ve never had a kid my age say anything about my race, but I’ve had older people deadass tell me, “wow you’re the first asian I’ve ever seen skiing.” Kids my age have never said anything or probably even thought about it, they’re just like oh dope you’re a skier too.
FACTS!
Also thought it was a great read!
animatorCan I just say that being someone who is not white, and is still a skier, it really genuinely makes me happy that people here are agreeing with the points being made? When Powder posted this article on Facebook, a WHOLE lot of people (majority being white) were commenting really hateful shit, and not really understanding the point of the article. Obviously skiers aren’t racist people, but race within skiing is something that should be addressed given how little POC there are. Thanks guys for making my fucking year, this is one hell of a community
Article was a great read, was super disappointed by how much pushback the author was getting on his insta page when he posted something similar back in june. Lot of shitty people in the ski community and the only way it's gonna change is if we step back and look around.
Beyond racist individuals and stepping more into the institutional side of the problem it's kind of disgusting how little the industry cares about the "privileged" image skiing has. Resorts have no problem dumping 50+ million on a housing development where they'll sell a bunch of million dollar homes that sit empty most of the year (not earning them anything after that initial sale mind you) and do jack shit to grow the sport, yet every year Ski Area Management or some other industry group publishes an article about how millennials and minorities aren't picking up the sport. I wonder why?
BigPurpleSkiSuitObviously, not saying the N Word is a great start, but you want to talk about people not being able to use certain songs because they're 'thug', and the skier is white? I mean come on, you'd be taking away a major source of inspiration for a guy like Henrik Harlaut. I love bumping some Wu Tang, or Biggie when I'm skiing, you're saying I shouldn't listen to that?
Just gonna point out the author of the article said nothing about the lyrics of music in those videos, but the people riding in them using the N-word
a_burgerJust gonna point out the author of the article said nothing about the lyrics of music in those videos, but the people riding in them using the N-word
As a teen, a friend had a pair of Atomic Thug skis featuring a grimacing, dark-skinned, dreadlocked man on the topsheet. This stereotypical image of a Black man matched the other references to Blackness I saw in skiing, from white freeskiers cosplaying as “thugs” in videos using hip-hop soundtracks to violent hand gestures (described as “hood”) towards the camera to saying the N-word. I witnessed these displays of white privilege and anti-Black appropriation without hearing a single voice of dissent.
I thought that was what he was referring to in part there.
BigPurpleSkiSuitAs a teen, a friend had a pair of Atomic Thug skis featuring a grimacing, dark-skinned, dreadlocked man on the topsheet. This stereotypical image of a Black man matched the other references to Blackness I saw in skiing, from white freeskiers cosplaying as “thugs” in videos using hip-hop soundtracks to violent hand gestures (described as “hood”) towards the camera to saying the N-word. I witnessed these displays of white privilege and anti-Black appropriation without hearing a single voice of dissent.I thought that was what he was referring to in part there.
He's talking about all of those factors as a whole, and even if he has an issue with the music alone (which I also think is unreasonable) it doesn't really discredit everything else he's saying.
I think that's another issue i've seen in these discussions is just because someone is calling the tastefulness of something into question doesn't mean your a bad person for doing it, they're asking you to consider the context of how other people view and and your motivations. Do I think baggy clothes and white kids listening to hip hop are scaring people of color away from skiing? No and tbh I doubt the author is either, he's just bringing up the point of how careless skiers can be with regards to how they might make other people feel.
Take the 4bi9 hephi edit for example. Classic baggy era edit, funny af, but steve kinda crossed the line dropping the n-bomb (and I assume he might feel the same way since it's not on 4bi9's channel anymore)
a_burgerArticle was a great read, was super disappointed by how much pushback the author was getting on his insta page when he posted something similar back in june. Lot of shitty people in the ski community and the only way it's gonna change is if we step back and look around.Beyond racist individuals and stepping more into the institutional side of the problem it's kind of disgusting how little the industry cares about the "privileged" image skiing has. Resorts have no problem dumping 50+ million on a housing development where they'll sell a bunch of million dollar homes that sit empty most of the year (not earning them anything after that initial sale mind you) and do jack shit to grow the sport, yet every year Ski Area Management or some other industry group publishes an article about how millennials and minorities aren't picking up the sport. I wonder why?
What’s his handle? I wanna message him
Skiing is definitely hard to get into financially, but the issue is definitely cultural too. If I was a person of color I wouldn't want to invest that much money into a sport that looks like a bunch of wealthy white teens. Not to mention the fact that the bigger skiing states are some of the least diverse states in the country.
What part of this went over your head?
Biffbarf"Even end-of-season celebrations characterized by obscene patriotism for a country that still does not provide equal rights to BIPOC and throwback outfits that romanticize eras when the nation was violently hostile to BIPOC can feel uninviting."Huh?
DesertStixWhat part of this went over your head?
Probably the
'throwback outfits that romanticize eras when the nation was violently hostile to BIPOC' part.
I didn't realize wearing tutus, bikinis, dinasaur onesies and denim cutoffs while spring skiing was a throwback of institutional racism, but I guess you learn something new every day.
I wasn’t trying to be a smart ass. I’m not sure where you ski but the amount of confederate flags I’ve seen while trying to ride is mind boggling. I’m assuming that’s what he’s referring to. Not dinosaur costumes. And it’s pretty obvious he’s referencing Fourth of July not just spring skiing in general...
BiffbarfProbably the'throwback outfits that romanticize eras when the nation was violently hostile to BIPOC' part.
I didn't realize wearing tutus, bikinis, dinasaur onesies and denim cutoffs while spring skiing was a throwback of institutional racism, but I guess you learn something new every day.
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 12:38:55am
DesertStixI wasn’t trying to be a smart ass. I’m not sure where you ski but the amount of confederate flags I’ve seen while trying to ride is mind boggling. I’m assuming that’s what he’s referring to. Not dinosaur costumes. And it’s pretty obvious he’s referencing Fourth of July not just spring skiing in general...**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 12:38:55am
He definitely wasn't referencing the 4th of July my dude. Did you read the article? He was referencing gaper day. Where do you ride where there's confederate flags? I rarely ever see them in CO, and if I do it isn't the kind of person that skis.
Tb 100% honest I read 3/4 of it and the NS app crashed like it always does. His description that was quoted in the thread sounded like he was talking about celebrating a country (assumed the 4th) while there are civil rights issues at hand.
I’ve seen confederate flags in NM, AZ, and CO while skiing but admittedly it’s usually a bumper sticker in the parking lot on a diesel truck and not a flag being waved down a ski run...
BiffbarfHe definitely wasn't referencing the 4th of July my dude. Did you read the article? He was referencing gaper day. Where do you ride where there's confederate flags? I rarely ever see them in CO, and if I do it isn't the kind of person that skis.
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 12:59:51am
DesertStixTb 100% honest I read 3/4 of it and the NS app crashed like it always does. His description that was quoted in the thread sounded like he was talking about celebrating a country (assumed the 4th) while there are civil rights issues at hand.I’ve seen confederate flags in NM, AZ, and CO while skiing but admittedly it’s usually a bumper sticker in the parking lot on a diesel truck and not a flag being waved down a ski run...
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 12:59:51am
Confederate flag bumper stickers are whack.
But dude's out there really trynna say gaper day is a barrier of entry to non-white people and it's a reach. Honestly, it dilutes his otherwise important message.
I’m wary of telling people from other backgrounds how to feel but at the same time understand the need for accuracy so messages don’t get diluted. This is a tricky one since there were good points made...
BiffbarfConfederate flag bumper stickers are whack.But dude's out there really trynna say gaper day is a barrier of entry to non-white people and it's a reach. Honestly, it dilutes his otherwise important message.
Super interesting discussion that I think skiing needs to have.
I've noticed lots of really shitty people on Powder's insta. I think Powder still holds lots of appeal to a generation of "elite" "traditional" skiers, and I'm not really surprised the first reaction is to get defensive rather than jump to share the stoke.
However, with Newschool skiing we've kind of gone through an evolution that should prepare us to have empathy for anyone who doesn't feel welcome. We were banned from snowboard parks. We were ridiculed by other skiers for not doing it "right". We held open doors for anyone who got stoked on what we were doing - creativity and individualism were more important than tradition because we were new and different. Reaching for inspiration outside skiing. Rejecting tech for cotton layers to emulate cultural heroes - fashion over function any day.
Coincidentally, this is where the author's interpretation of the "thug" scene diverges a bit from mine. I always felt it was more of a calculated homage to hip hop - most skiers were full on hip hop fanboys. Our idols came from black culture - in fashion and in music. I think we liked to think we'd identify more with the counter-culture than the elitist traditions of skiing. And yeah some people took the "acting" too far and some claimed a bit too much as their own. But look at Henrik - he has inspired everything from his wardrobe to his hairstyle to how he talks from hip hop and black culture. And he gives it full credit.
I talked to a local advocate of inclusiveness in the outdoors (she started an organization called Colour the Trails to encourage more BIPOC people to be comfortable getting after it, hosting meet-ups and trips) and she was stoked to hear about our history.
All this to say, I'm not surprised NS is more embracing of this discussion than Powder seems to be. In a segment of the sport where individualism and style are valued, there is a lot more room for diversity.
I guess the question is really how do we best relate to demographics that currently are under-represented in our sport? To an extent, this is similar to what women have dealt with in that a somewhat unwelcoming/intimidating environment means there are fewer participants, meaning the pool of athletes is shallower, meaning there tends to be less content generated to inspire and connect to, which also brings in less participants, etc.
Women have been breaking ground like crazy despite that and there's tons of dope female content coming out now compared to even 5 years ago. The Level 1 interview with Laura and Taylor hits on that a bit - that it's hard to pave the way but once it is done it opens the door for so many others and it keeps leapfrogging.
I think the responsibility on the stereotypical white dude skier is the same in either case. It's about who we can support and who we help make visible. I think companies are privvy to this already, and it seems that the era of sponsorship simply on skill and ability is over. Eg. The Fagans' skill did not make up for what they lack in decency, personality and marketability. Athletes are advertising for the company that pays them and that includes their personality and identity. The value of having a diverse team is mutual - the reach for the company expands but also a more diverse range of potential consumers can picture themselves in ski culture and might feel more welcome getting into it. That can only be a good thing.
I swear there could be some sort of gear donation that helps set up people who have limited financial access to the sport. Actually I think this exists, it sounds familiar. RMU maybe is doing this? But for all the gear that we go through so much of it is still in good condition when we're done with it. A more intentional gear "donation" to complement the gear "shares" we're all used to would be cool to become more mainstream.
Anyways, stoked to see where this discussion goes. This is a good time to look inwards at our sport and culture.
This is my comment from the FB thread
Everyone’s experience is different. But I can’t honestly say I ever felt much prejudice against my skiing for being Asian American. If anything I experienced less “racist” jokes from people in the ski community then other outlets growing up ,such as baseball teams. Overall I guess I embraced being the minority in the sport and felt it probably helped me standout more and enjoyed being unique. Like I said, everyone’s experience is different, and it’s certainly not a recreational activity that’s marketed towards minorities or low income people. But I’m not sure I’d say there’s any existing major prejudices against people of color in skiing. It would definitely be great to see more marketing towards minorities and making skiing more accessible towards them would be an awesome thing.
shinbangclanSomewhat off topic, why is everyone saying "BIPOC" now? It's kind of a clunky word... has "minorities" become too abrasive these days?
Black Indigenous and People of Color.
I think because saying "people of color" is not as accurate as it should be, saying "black" exludes a significant number of people, and I think we often leave out indigenous when having these dicussions. I think overall its more inclusive
KevskiSuper interesting discussion that I think skiing needs to have.I've noticed lots of really shitty people on Powder's insta. I think Powder still holds lots of appeal to a generation of "elite" "traditional" skiers, and I'm not really surprised the first reaction is to get defensive rather than jump to share the stoke.
However, with Newschool skiing we've kind of gone through an evolution that should prepare us to have empathy for anyone who doesn't feel welcome. We were banned from snowboard parks. We were ridiculed by other skiers for not doing it "right". We held open doors for anyone who got stoked on what we were doing - creativity and individualism were more important than tradition because we were new and different. Reaching for inspiration outside skiing. Rejecting tech for cotton layers to emulate cultural heroes - fashion over function any day.
Coincidentally, this is where the author's interpretation of the "thug" scene diverges a bit from mine. I always felt it was more of a calculated homage to hip hop - most skiers were full on hip hop fanboys. Our idols came from black culture - in fashion and in music. I think we liked to think we'd identify more with the counter-culture than the elitist traditions of skiing. And yeah some people took the "acting" too far and some claimed a bit too much as their own. But look at Henrik - he has inspired everything from his wardrobe to his hairstyle to how he talks from hip hop and black culture. And he gives it full credit.
I talked to a local advocate of inclusiveness in the outdoors (she started an organization called Colour the Trails to encourage more BIPOC people to be comfortable getting after it, hosting meet-ups and trips) and she was stoked to hear about our history.
All this to say, I'm not surprised NS is more embracing of this discussion than Powder seems to be. In a segment of the sport where individualism and style are valued, there is a lot more room for diversity.
I guess the question is really how do we best relate to demographics that currently are under-represented in our sport? To an extent, this is similar to what women have dealt with in that a somewhat unwelcoming/intimidating environment means there are fewer participants, meaning the pool of athletes is shallower, meaning there tends to be less content generated to inspire and connect to, which also brings in less participants, etc.
Women have been breaking ground like crazy despite that and there's tons of dope female content coming out now compared to even 5 years ago. The Level 1 interview with Laura and Taylor hits on that a bit - that it's hard to pave the way but once it is done it opens the door for so many others and it keeps leapfrogging.
I think the responsibility on the stereotypical white dude skier is the same in either case. It's about who we can support and who we help make visible. I think companies are privvy to this already, and it seems that the era of sponsorship simply on skill and ability is over. Eg. The Fagans' skill did not make up for what they lack in decency, personality and marketability. Athletes are advertising for the company that pays them and that includes their personality and identity. The value of having a diverse team is mutual - the reach for the company expands but also a more diverse range of potential consumers can picture themselves in ski culture and might feel more welcome getting into it. That can only be a good thing.
I swear there could be some sort of gear donation that helps set up people who have limited financial access to the sport. Actually I think this exists, it sounds familiar. RMU maybe is doing this? But for all the gear that we go through so much of it is still in good condition when we're done with it. A more intentional gear "donation" to complement the gear "shares" we're all used to would be cool to become more mainstream.
Anyways, stoked to see where this discussion goes. This is a good time to look inwards at our sport and culture.
excellent post. quoting whole thing for emphasis, sorry to clutter up the thread.
1) totally agreed on the possibility of newschool skiing being a potential bastion of empathy in comparison to the greater culture of skiing as a whole. much of this rests on an implicit questioning and challenging of tradition, as you mention. i always felt the same way about the clothing style of the mid 2000s, it was shocking and disconcerting to the masses of older, traditional skiers who made up the majority of any slope's population. one might argue that if there were more youth-aged BIPOC at the times, this trend might not have happened, but i'd probably push back against that as well. beyond the fact that clothing has always been a signalling space for subcultural representation and dissention from the status quo in some way shape or form, if you look at any more mixed space in the same time period, say a high-school, kids of all colors were fawning over hip hop subculture.
is there still some cringe involved here? totally. certain people appropriate symbols for the wrong reasons and become misguided as to what everyone is celebrating. it is up to moments and discussions such as this one to make clear what we, as a relatively decentralized community, stand for and share: namely, this challenging of tradition. when this mentality is taken off the hill and brought to our broader society, it's pretty clear what the righteous newschooler might stand for.
2) moving forward, it would be great to see more community-focused organizations form out of newschool skiing specifically. gear donations, pass subsidizations, inclusiveness programs that espouse the freestyle community's values of questioning tradition (in this case, traditional routes of access to the outdoors, formulation of how one becomes a freestyle skier, what it even means to recreate outdoors, etc.). i, for one, would love to talk with anyone else interested in making moves on this.
Because skiing is a generational thing.
If you ski it’s extremely likely your parents ski too.
I would say back in the day there were racial/economic barriers in skiing but now things have changed.
Around holidays I see black families skiing and they look like they’re having fun so just give it time.
Expensive tickets will alienate people regardless of race of from trying skiing.
Like who tf wants to spend $150+ on an experience they might hate?
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 12:32:08pm
I'll read it later but I will say in mtn ops if I didn't hear n***** or f***** for a week it seemed like something was wrong. I think it slowed a little more last season because we had to black guys setting rails on that crew. But I'm aure it was still prevalent when they were around.
As far as articles like these. Any time powder ir other places post about racism, homophobia, or women in skiing a bunch of white middle age douchers get triggered and rant in the comments. Every time. "There's no problem stfu powder fuck you for pushing this...." And much worse. If an article makes people that angry there's clearly something to it.
If anyone's on facebook and hasn't noticed it take a look. Sometimes there will be 100s of comments on articles like this because people are that outraged. Skiing is more accepting than ever but that doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, or that some people haven't had shitty experiences.
Idk, I don't feel like somebody talking about issues they've had or seen in skiing is ruining the world. Even if the mountain you ski is the most accepting place in the world and there's never been one issue in it's history, some places aren't so much, and some people have encountered issues. If that majes you angry maybe you're just a douche.
If your mountain is chill, all your friends are great that's awesome. But I don't see why it should anger you to hear that for somebody else, at another spot it hasn't always been great.
Even look back on the forums here and see the stuff that got posted. "But it was a different time" . Though absolutely true were talking 10 years ago. Not that long ago people casually posting thing. Even now in 2020 people can't seem to avoid posting n***** or f***** in the forums. Things have gotten better, and seem to be improving still, but don't act like skiing has always been perfect on this one. A lot of skiers are super accepting people but there are still problems.
Idk. Don't be a douche and go make some turns. /wall o text
theabortionatorI'll read it later but I will say in mtn ops if I didn't hear n***** or f***** for a week it seemed like something was wrong. I think it slowed a little more last season because we had to black guys setting rails on that crew. But I'm aure it was still prevalent when they were around.As far as articles like these. Any time powder ir other places post about racism, homophobia, or women in skiing a bunch of white middle age douchers get triggered and rant in the comments. Every time. "There's no problem stfu powder fuck you for pushing this...." And much worse. If an article makes people that angry there's clearly something to it.
If anyone's on facebook and hasn't noticed it take a look. Sometimes there will be 100s of comments on articles like this because people are that outraged. Skiing is more accepting than ever but that doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, or that some people haven't had shitty experiences.
Idk, I don't feel like somebody talking about issues they've had or seen in skiing is ruining the world. Even if the mountain you ski is the most accepting place in the world and there's never been one issue in it's history, some places aren't so much, and some people have encountered issues. If that majes you angry maybe you're just a douche.
If your mountain is chill, all your friends are great that's awesome. But I don't see why it should anger you to hear that for somebody else, at another spot it hasn't always been great.
Even look back on the forums here and see the stuff that got posted. "But it was a different time" . Though absolutely true were talking 10 years ago. Not that long ago people casually posting thing. Even now in 2020 people can't seem to avoid posting n***** or f***** in the forums. Things have gotten better, and seem to be improving still, but don't act like skiing has always been perfect on this one. A lot of skiers are super accepting people but there are still problems.
Idk. Don't be a douche and go make some turns. /wall o text
even back in June when the NS Instagram posted in support of Black lives matter there were an alarming amount of people being shitheads in the comment section
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 1:46:06pm
Biffbarf"Even end-of-season celebrations characterized by obscene patriotism for a country that still does not provide equal rights to BIPOC and throwback outfits that romanticize eras when the nation was violently hostile to BIPOC can feel uninviting."Huh?
Yeah that is some bullshit. People having fun and drinking in a muddy parking lot is oppression? The author is trying to conflate historical racial issues with current ski culture and is really making a stretch. Even the article title is inflammatory- nobody at the resorts, especially local skiers are going to go out of there way to be racist to Black skiers. This whole article is grasping at straws to portray regular people as racist if you dont agree with him-
"If you’re reading this thinking, “I’m one of the good ones,” then I am talking to you as much as the vitriolic racists."
I mean, the only real evidence the author puts out that skiing is toxic to minorities is a lodge that now allows anyone to attend and people wearing hats clowning on the Trump base. Its called humor, they are making fun of MAGA not wanting to go back to a racist era. He literally cant find any real instance of Blacks being belittled or barred from skiing on their race alone.
"Skiing has long served as an escape for white people from multicultural politics and accusations of privilege"
Actually, we just like to go to the mountains and have fun in the snow. YOU are trying to inject race baiting and division into our sport. Thats the point of skiing, to get away from divisive politics and social pressures to just be out in nature and in the mountains. Its a great equalizer, nobody cares what color you are or race. Its just about having fun and if you can throw down, you will earn respect.
"Even now, it is not rare to find white skiers who say the N-word or use other racial slurs. They feel they have been permitted by those around them who don’t push back against their racist behaviors."
Aside from the Fagan brothers who got shredded for saying the N Word, I have never heard this said on a mountain in any of my years of skiing. But since we are on the subject, we need to come to terms with the fact that the N-word has morphed from a racial slur to a pop culture reference. Its almost impossible to find a rap song, or almost any piece of media featuring Blacks that dont use the word repeatedly. Even to the point we had to differentiate the "Hard 'r" version form the 'a' version. If someone is being a piece of shit and calling a Black the word out of spite then yeah that needs to end but we also need to at least acknowledge that we have a generation that grew up listening to and supporting music that says the word with an entirely different meaning. Unless we come to terms with this one way or another we will always have to deal with a strange limbo of a word with a horrible past that is used prolifically in today's pop culture in an accepted manner.
"Many such gatherings celebrate the patronization of “gapers” or “Jerrys” (monikers for folks who are new or naïve to the sport and therefore engage with skiing differently). This elitism sets a precedent for what is normal and alienates skiers without the same privilege, and therefore disproportionately excludes BIPOC who already face barriers to be on the mountain that have been there from the beginning."
The author really misses the point of hating on gapers. Nobody is going to hate on that Black family on the bunny hill learning to ski. Gapers are typically the rich people who come to the resorts and treat the place as a venue to flaunt their wealth and lack of self awareness. So in a way, Gapers are a way of our sport trying to call out the "White Privilege" aspect of the larger commercial resorts.
"More recent decisions by ski resorts perpetuate this by valuing guests able to afford multi-day stays and lift tickets or season passes, and promote real estate that facilitates and values white flight and gentrification."
This is an issue that really affects everyone and not just minorities. Local resorts being bought by Vail etc does raise the economic bar in a bad way. But throwing around charged terms like White Flight and Gentrification really doenst even make sense here. Most of these mountain towns being affected were mostly White anyway. I personally think its a tragedy that the economic bar for skiing is becoming so high when it really should be for everyone but that is the only real issue here.
"That cannot be the case moving forward. Creating a new, intentionally inclusive tradition of skiing requires collective effort in examining current culture, funding opportunities for BIPOC to be included in skiing, and shifting the power structures of ski institutions by hiring people of color."
Im down as hell on programs to get inner city kids and minorities into skiing. I think that is awesome and its a great way to get these youth out in nature and to find an identity away from our toxic mainstream culture. But arbitrarily hiring people of color to run resorts isnt going to help anything. Sure, have opportunities on an equal playing field but to prioritize someone based on the color of their skin rather than their qualifications is regressive.
"Increasing the number of BIPOC on the mountain without altering the social environment of the mountain will only increase the number of BIPOC subjected to racial trauma."
LOL what trauma??? You really think Blacks on the hill are going to be yelled at or barred from the restaurant etc? Its 2020, young people could care less about being racist. Were over that shit despite it constantly being shoved in our face. Its this "Everything is White Supremacy and your racist unless you agree" crap that is causing the division.
"That power will not be conceded until the experiences and perspectives of BIPOC are valued as much as those of white consumers, and not until that value is expressed in practice. Equity will not be practiced until the voices of BIPOC and white co-conspirators demand it, because white supremacy will not willingly concede itself."
So we need to redecorate our lodges under a BIPOC committee so Blacks feel more comfortable on the hill? This is the issue I have with this article, it goes on that we have this mysterious White Supremacy and anyone that is not down with this agenda is part of the supremacy. This only creates division and racial tensions instead of just moving forward that young people just want to chill and do what we do without race being shoved down our throats.
Yes, we had the skiing thug era. Why? Because kids grew up listening to Hip Hop and the culture around it and wanted to emulate it. White people have always been a consumer of Hip Hop since its inception and its a factor that has actually brought races together. Hell, a lot of Hip Hop artists jokingly say that they 'made it' when White people are listening to their music because it means they are now in the broader audience. Its called growing culture together, not appropriation. If you want to play that game then stop listening to EDM, Hip Hop, Rock and Roll, Blues or Jazz because they all came from Black Music. America is a melting pot, you cant promote that and discredit the culture it creates at the same time.
The real issue here is economics and demographics. The age of the local ski hill is ending making it harder to get into skiing without dropping thousands of dollars on a season pass etc. If we want to get minorities into skiing we need to focus on getting them on the hill in an affordable way where we can all ride together. Also, if you look at the demographics of Colorado (84% White) and Utah (89% White) it falls in line with the skiing demographics. That means to get more diversity you need to get a BIPOC family to travel considerable distances and stay at hotels and get gear they wont use that much just to ski.
Dont blame White skiers, many of which have made significant sacrifices to live that lifestyle. And also acknowledge that not all, or inherently less, minorities may be willing to make those sacrifices to make that their lifestyle when they have other interests or priorities or dont live near the mountains. The article didnt mention even asking a single BIPOC why they dont ski. Im sure you wont hear any, "Im scared because their racist up there" but will hear, "Its way to expensive."
SuspiciousFishYeah that is some bullshit. People having fun and drinking in a muddy parking lot is oppression? The author is trying to conflate historical racial issues with current ski culture and is really making a stretch. Even the article title is inflammatory- nobody at the resorts, especially local skiers are going to go out of there way to be racist to Black skiers. This whole article is grasping at straws to portray regular people as racist if you dont agree with him-"If you’re reading this thinking, “I’m one of the good ones,” then I am talking to you as much as the vitriolic racists."
I mean, the only real evidence the author puts out that skiing is toxic to minorities is a lodge that now allows anyone to attend and people wearing hats clowning on the Trump base. Its called humor, they are making fun of MAGA not wanting to go back to a racist era. He literally cant find any real instance of Blacks being belittled or barred from skiing on their race alone.
"Skiing has long served as an escape for white people from multicultural politics and accusations of privilege"
Actually, we just like to go to the mountains and have fun in the snow. YOU are trying to inject race baiting and division into our sport. Thats the point of skiing, to get away from divisive politics and social pressures to just be out in nature and in the mountains. Its a great equalizer, nobody cares what color you are or race. Its just about having fun and if you can throw down, you will earn respect.
"Even now, it is not rare to find white skiers who say the N-word or use other racial slurs. They feel they have been permitted by those around them who don’t push back against their racist behaviors."
Aside from the Fagan brothers who got shredded for saying the N Word, I have never heard this said on a mountain in any of my years of skiing. But since we are on the subject, we need to come to terms with the fact that the N-word has morphed from a racial slur to a pop culture reference. Its almost impossible to find a rap song, or almost any piece of media featuring Blacks that dont use the word repeatedly. Even to the point we had to differentiate the "Hard 'r" version form the 'a' version. If someone is being a piece of shit and calling a Black the word out of spite then yeah that needs to end but we also need to at least acknowledge that we have a generation that grew up listening to and supporting music that says the word with an entirely different meaning. Unless we come to terms with this one way or another we will always have to deal with a strange limbo of a word with a horrible past that is used prolifically in today's pop culture in an accepted manner.
"Many such gatherings celebrate the patronization of “gapers” or “Jerrys” (monikers for folks who are new or naïve to the sport and therefore engage with skiing differently). This elitism sets a precedent for what is normal and alienates skiers without the same privilege, and therefore disproportionately excludes BIPOC who already face barriers to be on the mountain that have been there from the beginning."
The author really misses the point of hating on gapers. Nobody is going to hate on that Black family on the bunny hill learning to ski. Gapers are typically the rich people who come to the resorts and treat the place as a venue to flaunt their wealth and lack of self awareness. So in a way, Gapers are a way of our sport trying to call out the "White Privilege" aspect of the larger commercial resorts.
"More recent decisions by ski resorts perpetuate this by valuing guests able to afford multi-day stays and lift tickets or season passes, and promote real estate that facilitates and values white flight and gentrification."
This is an issue that really affects everyone and not just minorities. Local resorts being bought by Vail etc does raise the economic bar in a bad way. But throwing around charged terms like White Flight and Gentrification really doenst even make sense here. Most of these mountain towns being affected were mostly White anyway. I personally think its a tragedy that the economic bar for skiing is becoming so high when it really should be for everyone but that is the only real issue here.
"That cannot be the case moving forward. Creating a new, intentionally inclusive tradition of skiing requires collective effort in examining current culture, funding opportunities for BIPOC to be included in skiing, and shifting the power structures of ski institutions by hiring people of color."
Im down as hell on programs to get inner city kids and minorities into skiing. I think that is awesome and its a great way to get these youth out in nature and to find an identity away from our toxic mainstream culture. But arbitrarily hiring people of color to run resorts isnt going to help anything. Sure, have opportunities on an equal playing field but to prioritize someone based on the color of their skin rather than their qualifications is regressive.
"Increasing the number of BIPOC on the mountain without altering the social environment of the mountain will only increase the number of BIPOC subjected to racial trauma."
LOL what trauma??? You really think Blacks on the hill are going to be yelled at or barred from the restaurant etc? Its 2020, young people could care less about being racist. Were over that shit despite it constantly being shoved in our face. Its this "Everything is White Supremacy and your racist unless you agree" crap that is causing the division.
"That power will not be conceded until the experiences and perspectives of BIPOC are valued as much as those of white consumers, and not until that value is expressed in practice. Equity will not be practiced until the voices of BIPOC and white co-conspirators demand it, because white supremacy will not willingly concede itself."
So we need to redecorate our lodges under a BIPOC committee so Blacks feel more comfortable on the hill? This is the issue I have with this article, it goes on that we have this mysterious White Supremacy and anyone that is not down with this agenda is part of the supremacy. This only creates division and racial tensions instead of just moving forward that young people just want to chill and do what we do without race being shoved down our throats.
Yes, we had the skiing thug era. Why? Because kids grew up listening to Hip Hop and the culture around it and wanted to emulate it. White people have always been a consumer of Hip Hop since its inception and its a factor that has actually brought races together. Hell, a lot of Hip Hop artists jokingly say that they 'made it' when White people are listening to their music because it means they are now in the broader audience. Its called growing culture together, not appropriation. If you want to play that game then stop listening to EDM, Hip Hop, Rock and Roll, Blues or Jazz because they all came from Black Music. America is a melting pot, you cant promote that and discredit the culture it creates at the same time.
The real issue here is economics and demographics. The age of the local ski hill is ending making it harder to get into skiing without dropping thousands of dollars on a season pass etc. If we want to get minorities into skiing we need to focus on getting them on the hill in an affordable way where we can all ride together. Also, if you look at the demographics of Colorado (84% White) and Utah (89% White) it falls in line with the skiing demographics. That means to get more diversity you need to get a BIPOC family to travel considerable distances and stay at hotels and get gear they wont use that much just to ski.
Dont blame White skiers, many of which have made significant sacrifices to live that lifestyle. And also acknowledge that not all, or inherently less, minorities may be willing to make those sacrifices to make that their lifestyle when they have other interests or priorities or dont live near the mountains. The article didnt mention even asking a single BIPOC why they dont ski. Im sure you wont hear any, "Im scared because their racist up there" but will hear, "Its way to expensive."
/Thread
If someone can make an argument against this without succumbing to woke buzzwords, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
SuspiciousFish"Skiing has long served as an escape for white people from multicultural politics and accusations of privilege"Actually, we just like to go to the mountains and have fun in the snow. YOU are trying to inject race baiting and division into our sport. Thats the point of skiing, to get away from divisive politics and social pressures to just be out in nature and in the mountains. Its a great equalizer, nobody cares what color you are or race. Its just about having fun and if you can throw down, you will earn respect.
"Even now, it is not rare to find white skiers who say the N-word or use other racial slurs. They feel they have been permitted by those around them who don’t push back against their racist behaviors."
Aside from the Fagan brothers who got shredded for saying the N Word, I have never heard this said on a mountain in any of my years of skiing. But since we are on the subject, we need to come to terms with the fact that the N-word has morphed from a racial slur to a pop culture reference. Its almost impossible to find a rap song, or almost any piece of media featuring Blacks that dont use the word repeatedly. Even to the point we had to differentiate the "Hard 'r" version form the 'a' version. If someone is being a piece of shit and calling a Black the word out of spite then yeah that needs to end but we also need to at least acknowledge that we have a generation that grew up listening to and supporting music that says the word with an entirely different meaning. Unless we come to terms with this one way or another we will always have to deal with a strange limbo of a word with a horrible past that is used prolifically in today's pop culture in an accepted manner.
In 2007-2010 in Vermont it was not uncommon for white highschool students to say the N word to their friends without a single thought of how this was wrong. Trying to say its okay to say it if you use an A at the end instead of ER is also pretty messed up.
"Many such gatherings celebrate the patronization of “gapers” or “Jerrys” (monikers for folks who are new or naïve to the sport and therefore engage with skiing differently). This elitism sets a precedent for what is normal and alienates skiers without the same privilege, and therefore disproportionately excludes BIPOC who already face barriers to be on the mountain that have been there from the beginning."
The author really misses the point of hating on gapers. Nobody is going to hate on that Black family on the bunny hill learning to ski. Gapers are typically the rich people who come to the resorts and treat the place as a venue to flaunt their wealth and lack of self awareness. So in a way, Gapers are a way of our sport trying to call out the "White Privilege" aspect of the larger commercial resorts.
The author's point is one form of exclusion to a group is just another barrier to another 'outside group' wanting to join the sport. Gapers are not typically people who come to resorts to flaunt their wealth. Its anyone who has no clue what they are doing and typically wearing gear incorrectly (upside down goggles, backwards helmet) or perhaps equipment not suited for the sport (like wearing jeans instead of snowpants on a pow day). Do you really think gaper day is representative with calling out white privilege? bravo, way to fight the good fight.
"That cannot be the case moving forward. Creating a new, intentionally inclusive tradition of skiing requires collective effort in examining current culture, funding opportunities for BIPOC to be included in skiing, and shifting the power structures of ski institutions by hiring people of color."
Im down as hell on programs to get inner city kids and minorities into skiing. I think that is awesome and its a great way to get these youth out in nature and to find an identity away from our toxic mainstream culture. But arbitrarily hiring people of color to run resorts isnt going to help anything. Sure, have opportunities on an equal playing field but to prioritize someone based on the color of their skin rather than their qualifications is regressive.
"Increasing the number of BIPOC on the mountain without altering the social environment of the mountain will only increase the number of BIPOC subjected to racial trauma."
LOL what trauma??? You really think Blacks on the hill are going to be yelled at or barred from the restaurant etc? Its 2020, young people could care less about being racist. Were over that shit despite it constantly being shoved in our face. Its this "Everything is White Supremacy and your racist unless you agree" crap that is causing the division.
Read this article, they say:
“Regardless of whether it’s Vermont or out west, we constantly get the looks of, ‘oh, there are black people on the mountain – what are they doing here?’” Allen said. “Our club’s motto is ‘who says we don’t,’ because we constantly get that.”
Sadly, those looks are nothing new.
“You can tell when you get on the chairlift with somebody who feels really uncomfortable,” Allen said. “They’re sitting there (stiffly), looking straight ahead and not saying anything.
“It’s hard, especially in the current political climate. There are people who sit in silence on the chairlift because they don’t know what to say and they don’t have that comfort level. They don’t know how to ask, ‘what’s going on here?’ without feeling as though they’re being disrespectful in some way.”
While I understand you may not call this 'trauma', it is a feeling we can't understand as white people and white skiers, and that may be recurring trauma they face as people of colour.
"That power will not be conceded until the experiences and perspectives of BIPOC are valued as much as those of white consumers, and not until that value is expressed in practice. Equity will not be practiced until the voices of BIPOC and white co-conspirators demand it, because white supremacy will not willingly concede itself."
So we need to redecorate our lodges under a BIPOC committee so Blacks feel more comfortable on the hill? This is the issue I have with this article, it goes on that we have this mysterious White Supremacy and anyone that is not down with this agenda is part of the supremacy. This only creates division and racial tensions instead of just moving forward that young people just want to chill and do what we do without race being shoved down our throats.
Again from the article I posted above, from the experience of a person of colour... they say “It’s important that when you go to a ski area website, it’s not just showing white people – it’s showing blacks and Asians and Puerto Ricans,” Allen said. “Otherwise, it makes it look like it’s exclusive, when you open up a brochure or magazine and it’s only showing a bunch of white people doing it. That makes us say, ‘that’s just something that white folks do.’ It is so important to have that familiar face.”
Dont blame White skiers, many of which have made significant sacrifices to live that lifestyle. And also acknowledge that not all, or inherently less, minorities may be willing to make those sacrifices to make that their lifestyle when they have other interests or priorities or dont live near the mountains. The article didnt mention even asking a single BIPOC why they dont ski. Im sure you wont hear any, "Im scared because their racist up there" but will hear, "Its way to expensive."
I think your whole post comes off as feeling a bit attacked as a fragile white male (buzz words, people are gonna hate this) and not willing to take much responsibility to contribute to positive change that will allow BIPOC to feel more welcomed into the sport.
Wasn't sure how to consecutively quote the reply, so my responses to some of suspiciousfish's post are seen in bold above.
**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 3:30:32pm
SuspiciousFishYeah that is some bullshit. People having fun and drinking in a muddy parking lot is oppression? The author is trying to conflate historical racial issues with current ski culture and is really making a stretch. Even the article title is inflammatory- nobody at the resorts, especially local skiers are going to go out of there way to be racist to Black skiers. This whole article is grasping at straws to portray regular people as racist if you dont agree with him-"If you’re reading this thinking, “I’m one of the good ones,” then I am talking to you as much as the vitriolic racists."
I mean, the only real evidence the author puts out that skiing is toxic to minorities is a lodge that now allows anyone to attend and people wearing hats clowning on the Trump base. Its called humor, they are making fun of MAGA not wanting to go back to a racist era. He literally cant find any real instance of Blacks being belittled or barred from skiing on their race alone.
"Skiing has long served as an escape for white people from multicultural politics and accusations of privilege"
Actually, we just like to go to the mountains and have fun in the snow. YOU are trying to inject race baiting and division into our sport. Thats the point of skiing, to get away from divisive politics and social pressures to just be out in nature and in the mountains. Its a great equalizer, nobody cares what color you are or race. Its just about having fun and if you can throw down, you will earn respect.
"Even now, it is not rare to find white skiers who say the N-word or use other racial slurs. They feel they have been permitted by those around them who don’t push back against their racist behaviors."
Aside from the Fagan brothers who got shredded for saying the N Word, I have never heard this said on a mountain in any of my years of skiing. But since we are on the subject, we need to come to terms with the fact that the N-word has morphed from a racial slur to a pop culture reference. Its almost impossible to find a rap song, or almost any piece of media featuring Blacks that dont use the word repeatedly. Even to the point we had to differentiate the "Hard 'r" version form the 'a' version. If someone is being a piece of shit and calling a Black the word out of spite then yeah that needs to end but we also need to at least acknowledge that we have a generation that grew up listening to and supporting music that says the word with an entirely different meaning. Unless we come to terms with this one way or another we will always have to deal with a strange limbo of a word with a horrible past that is used prolifically in today's pop culture in an accepted manner.
"Many such gatherings celebrate the patronization of “gapers” or “Jerrys” (monikers for folks who are new or naïve to the sport and therefore engage with skiing differently). This elitism sets a precedent for what is normal and alienates skiers without the same privilege, and therefore disproportionately excludes BIPOC who already face barriers to be on the mountain that have been there from the beginning."
The author really misses the point of hating on gapers. Nobody is going to hate on that Black family on the bunny hill learning to ski. Gapers are typically the rich people who come to the resorts and treat the place as a venue to flaunt their wealth and lack of self awareness. So in a way, Gapers are a way of our sport trying to call out the "White Privilege" aspect of the larger commercial resorts.
"More recent decisions by ski resorts perpetuate this by valuing guests able to afford multi-day stays and lift tickets or season passes, and promote real estate that facilitates and values white flight and gentrification."
This is an issue that really affects everyone and not just minorities. Local resorts being bought by Vail etc does raise the economic bar in a bad way. But throwing around charged terms like White Flight and Gentrification really doenst even make sense here. Most of these mountain towns being affected were mostly White anyway. I personally think its a tragedy that the economic bar for skiing is becoming so high when it really should be for everyone but that is the only real issue here.
"That cannot be the case moving forward. Creating a new, intentionally inclusive tradition of skiing requires collective effort in examining current culture, funding opportunities for BIPOC to be included in skiing, and shifting the power structures of ski institutions by hiring people of color."
Im down as hell on programs to get inner city kids and minorities into skiing. I think that is awesome and its a great way to get these youth out in nature and to find an identity away from our toxic mainstream culture. But arbitrarily hiring people of color to run resorts isnt going to help anything. Sure, have opportunities on an equal playing field but to prioritize someone based on the color of their skin rather than their qualifications is regressive.
"Increasing the number of BIPOC on the mountain without altering the social environment of the mountain will only increase the number of BIPOC subjected to racial trauma."
LOL what trauma??? You really think Blacks on the hill are going to be yelled at or barred from the restaurant etc? Its 2020, young people could care less about being racist. Were over that shit despite it constantly being shoved in our face. Its this "Everything is White Supremacy and your racist unless you agree" crap that is causing the division.
"That power will not be conceded until the experiences and perspectives of BIPOC are valued as much as those of white consumers, and not until that value is expressed in practice. Equity will not be practiced until the voices of BIPOC and white co-conspirators demand it, because white supremacy will not willingly concede itself."
So we need to redecorate our lodges under a BIPOC committee so Blacks feel more comfortable on the hill? This is the issue I have with this article, it goes on that we have this mysterious White Supremacy and anyone that is not down with this agenda is part of the supremacy. This only creates division and racial tensions instead of just moving forward that young people just want to chill and do what we do without race being shoved down our throats.
Yes, we had the skiing thug era. Why? Because kids grew up listening to Hip Hop and the culture around it and wanted to emulate it. White people have always been a consumer of Hip Hop since its inception and its a factor that has actually brought races together. Hell, a lot of Hip Hop artists jokingly say that they 'made it' when White people are listening to their music because it means they are now in the broader audience. Its called growing culture together, not appropriation. If you want to play that game then stop listening to EDM, Hip Hop, Rock and Roll, Blues or Jazz because they all came from Black Music. America is a melting pot, you cant promote that and discredit the culture it creates at the same time.
The real issue here is economics and demographics. The age of the local ski hill is ending making it harder to get into skiing without dropping thousands of dollars on a season pass etc. If we want to get minorities into skiing we need to focus on getting them on the hill in an affordable way where we can all ride together. Also, if you look at the demographics of Colorado (84% White) and Utah (89% White) it falls in line with the skiing demographics. That means to get more diversity you need to get a BIPOC family to travel considerable distances and stay at hotels and get gear they wont use that much just to ski.
Dont blame White skiers, many of which have made significant sacrifices to live that lifestyle. And also acknowledge that not all, or inherently less, minorities may be willing to make those sacrifices to make that their lifestyle when they have other interests or priorities or dont live near the mountains. The article didnt mention even asking a single BIPOC why they dont ski. Im sure you wont hear any, "Im scared because their racist up there" but will hear, "Its way to expensive."
Nailed it. Seems some people, such as the author, want to make racism exist where it does not.
So this article has been really controversial, both here and on Facebook (especially on Facebook). I want to give another perspective, also as a person of color. I am originally Korean, and I was raised in the United States until I was 10 years old, and then moved to and completed the rest of my schooling in Switzerland. I identify as Asian first and foremost, and a skier second.
I learned to ski in Europe, and as many people are aware, Switzerland especially is one of the most culturally diverse countries on the planet. I went to a high school where more than 150 different nationalities were represented. Skiing is ingrained in the culture to the extent that I didn’t know a single person who did not ski (except due previous injuries or other similar circumstances). I had friends from all over the world, people who, in the United States, one would not usually expect to see skiing. Haiti, Turkey, Portugal, The Netherlands, are some examples. What some people within the United States are not understanding is, it’s different. That’s not to say that American skiers are not skiers, or that they are less dedicated to the sport, if anything they are more so. Every single skier I’ve met having lived in New England for 3 years is a better skier than myself, but that’s not the point. The point is that even though there are mountain towns, and even though there are people who wake up every day they can to drive 3 hours to the mountain, skiing is not ingrained in the culture as a whole as it is in Europe, simply because not everyone in the United States has access to do so. It is certainly prevalent in New England, and out West, but not to the extent that it is in Europe, where in almost every country, one can be at the mountains within the hour. This becomes more obvious to someone after experiencing both cultures, and identifying as such.
I was never once made aware of my race while growing up, simply because of the accessibility and the sheer number of different races that participate in our sport. Like I said, I had friends from all over the world who skied with me.
Graduating high school and coming back to the States for school, I was greeted with a different version of ski culture. As I stated before, all of the friends I have made during my time at the University of New Hampshire are more talented than I am, and just as dedicated to the pursuit as myself. But they are all white. For me, this isn’t a problem. Even though my campus is 90% white, I have yet to be reminded that I am not part of that 90%. On campus, at least. When I go north, things are different. At places like Loon Mountain, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, I have been approached by random skiers and told, “wow, you’re the first asian I have ever seen skiing.” Granted, maybe those people only ski 5 days a year. Maybe it’s true, that they haven’t seen an Asian person skiing before. But why do I need to be reminded of that? When I’m skiing, I identify as a skier, not as an Asian skier. What is the purpose of pointing that out? I have witnessed this many times, not just myself being reminded either, but other BIPOC too. People go to the mountains to ski, not to be told that they are, “the first -blank- person,” that someone has seen on the slopes. This is why, as white people, white Americans, cannot see this from a BIPOCs point of view. If I were a white American, no one would approach me and say, “Wow, you’re the first white guy I’ve ever seen skiing.” This approach is a reminder of racial prejudice and oppression, and it is the same for black people, Hispanic people, asian people. We don’t need to be reminded of what race we are, we’re well aware.
All of this being said, I wanted to extend my gratitude to most of you (not all), because this community is unique to the ski industry, and even to the world. Here, everyone is a skier. I haven’t been asked if I am white or not, and it doesn’t matter. People are here for information, good laughs, discussions, not to point out one members race. @VT_scratch , you especially presented a very coherent argument on your thread, and I appreciate it more than you will ever understand. This is about understanding that even though the largest barrier to skiing is financial, many BIPOC can pass through that barrier, but may not want to because of the underlying prejudice to being a person of color, that also happens to ski.
Liam_j10Skiing is definitely hard to get into financially, but the issue is definitely cultural too. If I was a person of color I wouldn't want to invest that much money into a sport that looks like a bunch of wealthy white teens. Not to mention the fact that the bigger skiing states are some of the least diverse states in the country.
Yeah, this is definitely true. An example of this I can give is basketball. I'm one of maybe 4-10 white dudes that play basketball at Van Winkle Vasa, and apart from that, most people are all black or Hispanic. I'm commonly referred to as "whiteboy" "gringo" and other kinds of things. That said, as soon as people realize you can play, they'll happily have you on your team, doesn't matter what color you are. I don't give a crap and just am generally friendly, but if basketball cost thousands of dollars to play, that would definitely be a factor in me thinking, hmmm, maybe I'm not as welcome here and I don't want to spend my money here.
VT_scratchWasn't sure how to consecutively quote the reply, so my responses to some of suspiciousfish's post are seen in bold above.**This post was edited on Aug 25th 2020 at 3:30:32pm
Ok, hopefully this is going to look ok pulling the text out. VT- I appreciate the response and think its cool we can have a good discussion here.
In 2007-2010 in Vermont it was not uncommon for white highschool students to say the N word to their friends without a single thought of how this was wrong. Trying to say its okay to say it if you use an A at the end instead of ER is also pretty messed up.
Maybe this is an East Coast thing but in any case it goes back to my original point. If we had the N word just die out as the horrible racist term it was there is no way kids would be saying it for kicks. The issue is that its become a word almost anyone who listens to modern music or media hears on a daily basis almost consistently. Its this strange thing where we have this now popular term and only Black people can say it but not White people. If White people say it, its not trying to be racist, its because they are being edgy by breaking this now arbitrary rule. Is it not a double standard that we say this is a dark word with a horrible past, but then let it be displayed almost everywhere in pop culture? Personally, I think the word needs to die altogether. That being said, if Black people have a reason to still use it Im not going to speak for them but we cant hide from the implications of this double standard.
The author's point is one form of exclusion to a group is just another barrier to another 'outside group' wanting to join the sport. Gapers are not typically people who come to resorts to flaunt their wealth. Its anyone who has no clue what they are doing and typically wearing gear incorrectly (upside down goggles, backwards helmet) or perhaps equipment not suited for the sport (like wearing jeans instead of snowpants on a pow day). Do you really think gaper day is representative with calling out white privilege? bravo, way to fight the good fight.
Im not directly saying Gaper day is calling out White Privilege but most of our collective hate for Jerry's are people that come to these resorts, dont know what they are doing, and act like asshats because they have money. Sure there are funny examples of well meaning people wearing goggles upside down but thats just funny in itself regardless of who is doing it. I still dont see how Gaper Day or dressing up funny and drinking in a dirt parking lot can be considered racism.
Read this article, they say:
“Regardless of whether it’s Vermont or out west, we constantly get the looks of, ‘oh, there are black people on the mountain – what are they doing here?’” Allen said. “Our club’s motto is ‘who says we don’t,’ because we constantly get that.”
The same article says:
While those numbers seemingly reinforce some painful stereotypes about skiing being a whitewashed sport, the NESC regards Vermont as a comfortable and inviting place to enjoy the sport they love.
“Vermont has always been a welcoming place for me to ski, and I’ve been coming here for a long time,” said longtime club member Jim McKamey. “I don’t think anybody has ever made me feel like I shouldn’t be here.”
They also said most of the flak and surprise they got was from their own race:
Several club members acknowledged that the very first hurdles occur within the African-American community itself. Skiing has long been viewed as a “white sport” from both within and without.
“Stereotypes die very hard, and it’s not just white people,” Cooper said, recalling when a black ski patroller named Phil Littlejohn first suggested she try skiing. “I’m like, ‘are you crazy? Black people don’t ski.’ That’s what came out of my mouth. It took a lot to get me out there.”
This goes back to my earlier point of different priorities different people have. Its not unusual for any race or people to look confused when you spend much of your money on wooden planks, drive 2 hrs every weekend to slide on some snow. This is why im down on community outreach and getting kids out on the mountain, especially from the inner cities where they need a balance to the trapped downward spiral those conditions can create.
Sadly, those looks are nothing new.
“You can tell when you get on the chairlift with somebody who feels really uncomfortable,” Allen said. “They’re sitting there (stiffly), looking straight ahead and not saying anything.
“It’s hard, especially in the current political climate. There are people who sit in silence on the chairlift because they don’t know what to say and they don’t have that comfort level. They don’t know how to ask, ‘what’s going on here?’ without feeling as though they’re being disrespectful in some way.”
Exactly this- ESPECIALLY IN THE CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE. Because we have all this White Guilt, 'White Supremacy is Everywhere" Cancel culture- we have created racial tension and division. If White people are told they are bad, and racist and commit micro aggression then of course they may be uncomfortable to say something on a chairlift out of fear of saying something wrong or offensive even in normal conversation. This was written back in March but look how much worse it is now. There are literally BLM crowds marching through restaurants and yelling at any patrons that dont put there fist up in solidarity. You can deny with that sort of extreme animosity, that same person might be reticent to talk to a normal Black person at the grocery store.
While I understand you may not call this 'trauma', it is a feeling we can't understand as white people and white skiers, and that may be recurring trauma they face as people of colour.
Again from the article I posted above, from the experience of a person of colour... they say “It’s important that when you go to a ski area website, it’s not just showing white people – it’s showing blacks and Asians and Puerto Ricans,” Allen said. “Otherwise, it makes it look like it’s exclusive, when you open up a brochure or magazine and it’s only showing a bunch of white people doing it. That makes us say, ‘that’s just something that white folks do.’ It is so important to have that familiar face.”
This is a tricky one because resorts exist to make money. They know their market is White so they cater to those that are willing to spend money with them. Sure, they can put a bunch of Blacks and Hispanics on marketing slicks but unless it actually makes more Blacks and Hispanics come, it can come off as disingenuous. I dont have a problem at all for them doing this but at the end of the day, the marketing people do things to make money for the resorts and if Blacks dont care about skiing they will eventually realize its a waste of time to market to them. On the other hand, if it makes Blacks feel like they are more included and drives them to the resorts then yeah all the better.
I think your whole post comes off as feeling a bit attacked as a fragile white male (buzz words, people are gonna hate this) and not willing to take much responsibility to contribute to positive change that will allow BIPOC to feel more welcomed into the sport.
Buzzword indeed, ad hominim attacks are not going to help bring anyone together. Especially when its used to discredit anyone with a different idea. If I have a tone, its because in the late 00s it really looked like America was past racism. Young people all grew up watching Dave Chappelle, listened to Hip Hop and voted for Obama and nobody cared what race your friends were. Racism was literally something we collectively celebrated being over. Sure society as a whole still needed to change but the youth were primed to wash it away.
But then this new agenda came forth that suddenly painted everything as racist and marginalized White People as being "White Supremacists" and "Check Your Privilege" or "Cultural Appropriation" for any little thing. Then that gave birth to the natural push back of the Alt-Right shitheads which led to a death spiral into the shit cesspool of race relations we have today. That is why im against articles like this, they dont promote actually going into Black communities to promote skiing. Its just cheap shots at inconsequential issues and trying to use that to paint our sport as racist in a way that does not actually help anyone. We are supposed to get past racism, not look for every little excuse to wallow in it.