Neat!

That's really cool!

Ski companies should get on that

Great in concept but man I would hate to be the ski builder spending the time on such a tedious job.

Most weakness developes through torsion which this might not eliminate but the idea is good.

Those strings just need a modified weave

This is a neat idea for sure. Would be cool to test it, only downside I could see is if the force of the inside edge is transmitted to the outside edge, it may tweak the outside edge enough so that the ski is base/edge high on the opposite side of the hit edge.

This is 100% armchair quaterbacking, idk shit about ski design

Love people putting ideas out there. There are definitely people working on this issue, but given park ski's low margin and (comparatively) small market, gonna take some creativity to figure out how to take the next step forward in park ski durability.

Biggest things you can currently do to make park skis last is detune, swap skis, slide both ways, and fix cracks when they happen.

The thing that is causing edges to come out is the water itself. As the water gets into your ski, it freezes and when it does, expands. As the water then freezes and thaws and freezes and thaws, it expands, melts, get deeper in your ski, freezes, expands again, and repeats. That is how park skis die quickly.

As for this idea, it's called Edge Armor. Salomon used it in the early to mid 2010's. They don't anymore, if that says anything.

Conceptually, it is a good one, but in practice didn't help. Lots of good ideas floating around right now, but bringing them to market is a whole different animal.

Seems like an edge tear out or crack that catches something would just pull the base with it

This is a good idea, I feel like the one main problem with this is that the tabs will break off where they get narrow. Definitely good to get talking about ski durability again

Salomon did exactly what you illustrated back in I want to say 2008 with the Suspect. They called it "edge armour". Edges still cracked and ripped out.

Props to you though OP for coming to the same conclusion that engineers at a successful ski company did.

**This post was edited on Feb 7th 2019 at 9:13:19am

This is such a cool idea, I’m impressed

Thats a good idea man.

Lol I cant remember what company it was but they used to sell park skis in sets of 3 with the anticipation you will trash at least one in the near future.

SuspiciousFishThats a good idea man.

Lol I cant remember what company it was but they used to sell park skis in sets of 3 with the anticipation you will trash at least one in the near future.

Atomic did this with the “Triplets” back in 2007-09ish

Obie.Atomic did this with the “Triplets” back in 2007-09ish

And I'm pretty sure LIB Tech sold the old NAS as individual skis, buy as many as you need

Am I really that fucking old that Salomon edge armour was only mentioned a few times in this thread. Those skis delaminated fast as fuck, good concept, but pass.

Cool idea but A couple things. 1 many companies use one edge for all of their skis. With your idea they would have to have sets of edges for each ski which would increase costs. Also if you were to make them or solder them(welding would melt that wire if it was thin) it would be very time consuming and again would increase the costs of skis. It is a cool idea but I don’t think it will happen anytime soon

TOAST.Am I really that fucking old that Salomon edge armour was only mentioned a few times in this thread. Those skis delaminated fast as fuck, good concept, but pass.

Right? Haha.

nope, that would increase the price of skis so much because of how differently they would have to be built

the edges would have to be part of the core in order to do your design

As many have said, Salomon tried and produced what is possibly the least durable park ski that was ever in existence. I'm talking worse than the OG invaders, worse than Revision, worse than Batalla, and worse than that 333 guy that was making custom skis in his trailer.

LemuelAs many have said, Salomon tried and produced what is possibly the least durable park ski that was ever in existence. I'm talking worse than the OG invaders, worse than Revision, worse than Batalla, and worse than that 333 guy that was making custom skis in his trailer.

Yeah I remember the 2009 Salomon suspects having the worst reputation.

Sus

LemuelAs many have said, Salomon tried and produced what is possibly the least durable park ski that was ever in existence. I'm talking worse than the OG invaders, worse than Revision, worse than Batalla, and worse than that 333 guy that was making custom skis in his trailer.

**This post was edited on Feb 6th 2019 at 11:11:38pm

This is such a good idea, durability is so rare in this industry and something needs to be done about it.

I had two pairs of the Solomon Suspects that had this; neither pairs edges lasted me a whole season :(

when an edge is so cracked that it falls out, your whole sidewall is likely pretty fucked. The whole structure of the ski is busted, likely why the salomon 'edge armour' didn't really work

Ya’ll must have missed 2006-2009 when all the brands were trying to stop edge rip outs.

As mentioned, Salomon did this. Dynastar ran an extra strong piece of base material next to the edge. Armada rounded the edges of the thall, someone else used an extra soft material; Atomic put an extra set of edges underfoot a cm into the ski.

None of it could overcome the fact that rails are for trains and skis should stick to snow.

And then in 2019 armada along with Phil “B-Dog” Cassabon developed the edgeless bdog. Can’t rip your edges out if you don’t have any.

Rum_HamAnd then in 2019 armada along with Phil “B-Dog” Cassabon developed the edgeless bdog. Can’t rip your edges out if you don’t have any.

Rum_HamAnd then in 2019 armada along with Phil “B-Dog” Cassabon developed the edgeless bdog. Can’t rip your edges out if you don’t have any.

Super unsure how well those will turn out. I fucked my first pair of bdogs in half a season and then fucked the warranty bdogs I got by splitting the whole sidewall in a few weeks. These were the first and second versions of the bdog and I lately learned that armada uses a cheap resin in the bdogs and harlauts and sidewall splitting is common. If these new ones use the same resin I bet lacking an edge would only make the sidewall problems worse. As much as I love armada, the bdogs seem to have a bad rep with durability and I would caution anyone considering buying these.

Now if they made another model like the ar8s without an edge instead...

This thread is made up of two different people.

Those who think OP has a great idea

And

Those that remember the Suspect

weastcoastSo I been thinking a while about the whole life cycle of a ski thing. And then I thought of a possible solution, or maybe just something to try.

When edges crack, no big deal. When they crack and pull out, bigger deal. Now you have a gap for water to get in and obviously ruin your core, therefore ruining your skis sooner or later. But how can edges be kept in way longer? I thought of this...

I know it isn’t a perfect drawing, but you get the point. Those little lines represent thin little wires. The wires connect the edges and hold them together, similar to a shoelace design. The wires could either be welded on or even passed through the edge tabs by drilling a little hole.

I think this design would work well because once you get an edge crack, there’s still something holding that edge in the ski. And this design would run just underfoot in the ski. And just for clarification, this wire pattern would run inside the ski, close to the fiberglass and core.

I don’t know if this would forsure work or not, but I can’t imagine it not working at all. I also think that it wouldn’t add that much weight to the ski.

Just some thoughts, and here come the downvotes lol.

This is a really cool idea!

it would be sick to ski companies do this but it seems like only the smaller hand made ski companies would do this as it takes more time and effort

TOAST.Am I really that fucking old that Salomon edge armour was only mentioned a few times in this thread. Those skis delaminated fast as fuck, good concept, but pass.

right???

Interesting concept. It would be really interesting to see how this might alter the weight, flex, power distribution of the skis.

Like others I have also thrown a few ideas around in my head to resolve this common problem. The best idea I have right now is to use a material that can work as a layer in the ski and then once it reaches the sidewall the material becomes thicker like that of a metal edge. I don't know the viability of such a layer and edge system but it seems like finding something that work for two parts of the ski will eliminate joins and areas for breaking.

iggyskierLove people putting ideas out there. There are definitely people working on this issue, but given park ski's low margin and (comparatively) small market, gonna take some creativity to figure out how to take the next step forward in park ski durability.

Edges are extruded and die cut in line right? which is a reason why there relatively cheap in comparison to the rest of material cost? If you were to somehow custom create some sort of matrix between each side I could definitely see how this would kill your already thin margins.

I had those salomons, it didnt work.

What he said... Time is money, and money is something that a lot of ski companies don't have an excess amount of.

r00kieGreat in concept but man I would hate to be the ski builder spending the time on such a tedious job.

What if the ski had a bolt-on replaceable insert underfoot? Bolt on edges, or bolt on edges and base. The ski could be highly cambered underfoot like the wax pocket classic XC ski to keep this section out of the snow when skiing straight. The ski would have have contact points ahead and behind the binding and normal tip and tail rocker. If you blow up this section, you just replace it. A nightmare for ski shops to stock, but maybe bolt-on edges underfoot can make a comeback.

excuse my clip-art masterpiece...

I think the best solution instead of edges would be a full metal sheet that had a channel cut in it for the base material to sit in. Maybe have it webbed so the epoxy could bond better with the base and metal. Use lighter fiberglass/wood due to the added weight and and stiffness of the metal.

Yeah I also owned suspects and when one edge starts to pull, it loosens the other proportionately... The best design for durability was the Line afterbang because it was all wood and the edge really had nowhere to go. SUPER heavy ski though.

I saw a snowboard on the weekend that had no edge between the bindings. I didn't see who made it. For boardslides?

skiitsbetterI saw a snowboard on the weekend that had no edge between the bindings. I didn't see who made it. For boardslides?

Probably was an old Burton Dominant Slick. This is one of the best solutions. The new edgeless bdog is pretty cool as well.

Putting wires between the edges may help them stay on the ski a bit but it doesn't slow the fatigue process of the edge which turns into cracking. If there is a tiny crack in the edge water will get into the ski.

Back in the day the original Frankenski had the edge underfoot hidden inside the ski. It definitely helped but where the edge started and terminated needed some work.

Ski manufacturers need the ski edge to use as a guide while cutting the skis out on a bandsaw. Also, edges are cool because they allow you to stop, even if they are dull.

Now that Armada as Amer money and more access in the Atomic factory they are able to make the edgeless Bdog. This ski is pressed and then put back on a 5-axis CNC which routes the entire ski out. A pretty cool concept which costs a ton and I am sure alignment is a pain too. Stoked to see them trying something new though.The main issue I see with this design is its going to be challenging to stop with absolutely no edge...

link80Probably was an old Burton Dominant Slick. This is one of the best solutions. The new edgeless bdog is pretty cool as well.

Putting wires between the edges may help them stay on the ski a bit but it doesn't slow the fatigue process of the edge which turns into cracking. If there is a tiny crack in the edge water will get into the ski.

Back in the day the original Frankenski had the edge underfoot hidden inside the ski. It definitely helped but where the edge started and terminated needed some work.

Ski manufacturers need the ski edge to use as a guide while cutting the skis out on a bandsaw. Also, edges are cool because they allow you to stop, even if they are dull.

Now that Armada as Amer money and more access in the Atomic factory they are able to make the edgeless Bdog. This ski is pressed and then put back on a 5-axis CNC which routes the entire ski out. A pretty cool concept which costs a ton and I am sure alignment is a pain too. Stoked to see them trying something new though.The main issue I see with this design is its going to be challenging to stop with absolutely no edge...

I put this in another thread, but it was pretty old and died off, so dropping in here to hear input.

Legal question: who gets sued when someone crashes into someone (or something) because they couldn't stop with edgeless skis? The ski company, the ski resort that allowed them, or the dude that bought them? All three?

I realize this is an "urban specific" ski, but there's inevitably going to be kids that end up on chairlifts with them. Ambulance chasing US lawyers gotta be frothing.

seanahue.I put this in another thread, but it was pretty old and died off, so dropping in here to hear input.

Legal question: who gets sued when someone crashes into someone (or something) because they couldn't stop with edgeless skis? The ski company, the ski resort that allowed them, or the dude that bought them? All three?

I realize this is an "urban specific" ski, but there's inevitably going to be kids that end up on chairlifts with them. Ambulance chasing US lawyers gotta be frothing.

Good Question. Call these guys and report back:

AMER SPORTS CORPORATE HQ

Konepajankuja 6, P.O. Box 1000

00511 Helsinki

Finland

Phone +358 20 712 2500 / amer.communications@amersports.com

.

**This post was edited on Feb 7th 2019 at 2:52:50pm

link80Probably was an old Burton Dominant Slick.

Nitro Snowboards made a board around the same time as the Dom slick where the edges came into the base area between the feet. This allowed for a continuous metal edge piece but no edge in the middle.

I don't think the edgeless (or recessed edge) will work for consumers until the ski/snowboard can be made way cheaper. If you're ever really concerned about catching an edge you can bevel/round the edges so much that you will never catch.

Let's get someone who is very technical to design a ski with channel sidewalls so you can slide in different edges for the ski day.

seanahue.I put this in another thread, but it was pretty old and died off, so dropping in here to hear input.

Legal question: who gets sued when someone crashes into someone (or something) because they couldn't stop with edgeless skis? The ski company, the ski resort that allowed them, or the dude that bought them? All three?

I realize this is an "urban specific" ski, but there's inevitably going to be kids that end up on chairlifts with them. Ambulance chasing US lawyers gotta be frothing.

This is such a fucking dumb question. Are the alcohol companies responsible for when a drunk driver kills someone? Are mtb companies responsible when someone breaks there arm riding? Ski companies aren't responsible when some gaper crashs while using there skis, edgeless or not.

Saga.Nitro Snowboards made a board around the same time as the Dom slick where the edges came into the base area between the feet. This allowed for a continuous metal edge piece but no edge in the middle.

I don't think the edgeless (or recessed edge) will work for consumers until the ski/snowboard can be made way cheaper. If you're ever really concerned about catching an edge you can bevel/round the edges so much that you will never catch.

Let's get someone who is very technical to design a ski with channel sidewalls so you can slide in different edges for the ski day.

We have talked about doing this.

That being said it would make the ski very expensive and that doesnt work for the park consumer...

CLQThis is such a fucking dumb question. Are the alcohol companies responsible for when a drunk driver kills someone? Are mtb companies responsible when someone breaks there arm riding? Ski companies aren't responsible when some gaper crashs while using there skis, edgeless or not.

Re: drunk drivers; no, alcohol companies aren't responsible, but if there is a bar involved that knowingly overserved the driver, they would be held liable if that driver kills someone, along with the driver.

Re: "gapers," it's not really a question of skill level either; someone can be a kickass skier, but if they knowingly buy edgeless skis that they can't stop on, and a company is knowingly selling skis that can't stop, where does liability extend or not extend?

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the question itself isn't dumb, US liability culture is.

Genuinely curious here, so don't take this with offense: what would you do if you got rocked by a good skier riding edgeless skis, and had huge medical bills to pay that you couldn't afford without going bankrupt?

seanahue.Re: drunk drivers; no, alcohol companies aren't responsible, but if there is a bar involved that knowingly overserved the driver, they would be held liable if that driver kills someone, along with the driver.

Re: "gapers," it's not really a question of skill level either; someone can be a kickass skier, but if they knowingly buy edgeless skis that they can't stop on, and a company is knowingly selling skis that can't stop, where does liability extend or not extend?

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the question itself isn't dumb, US liability culture is.

Genuinely curious here, so don't take this with offense: what would you do if you got rocked by a good skier riding edgeless skis, and had huge medical bills to pay that you couldn't afford without going bankrupt?

I would sue the skier, not the ski company. Just like when someone crashs their car into me, i'd sue them, not the car manufacturer.

But can you still B U T T E R

skiitsbetterWhat if the ski had a bolt-on replaceable insert underfoot? Bolt on edges, or bolt on edges and base. The ski could be highly cambered underfoot like the wax pocket classic XC ski to keep this section out of the snow when skiing straight. The ski would have have contact points ahead and behind the binding and normal tip and tail rocker. If you blow up this section, you just replace it. A nightmare for ski shops to stock, but maybe bolt-on edges underfoot can make a comeback.

excuse my clip-art masterpiece...

I think this is what line did back in the Reactor binding days, could have been someone else. Anyone remember?

iggyskierLove people putting ideas out there. There are definitely people working on this issue, but given park ski's low margin and (comparatively) small market, gonna take some creativity to figure out how to take the next step forward in park ski durability.

Biggest things you can currently do to make park skis last is detune, swap skis, slide both ways, and fix cracks when they happen.

The thing that is causing edges to come out is the water itself. As the water gets into your ski, it freezes and when it does, expands. As the water then freezes and thaws and freezes and thaws, it expands, melts, get deeper in your ski, freezes, expands again, and repeats. That is how park skis die quickly.

As for this idea, it's called Edge Armor. Salomon used it in the early to mid 2010's. They don't anymore, if that says anything.

Conceptually, it is a good one, but in practice didn't help. Lots of good ideas floating around right now, but bringing them to market is a whole different animal.

I know they look like a sidewall ski in the cutaway, but one of my buddies still rides the white/blue/orange ones and I'm almost certain that they are that weird cap construction that Salomon did for years (and still might). It was on the old SPK's as well, it looks kind of like sidewall construction, but it's definitely more of a cap. I feel like trying this out on another companies skis could lead to different results. I never owned any of these Salomons, but I remember them having significantly more durability issues than the cap skis from line of that time period.

I could be way off base here, but it just looks to me like the idea was scraped because of cost to durability ratio when their overall construction wasn't that durable to begin with.