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Every tesla store has a line out front today, some wrap around the block for the "cheaper" model 3 which will be unveiled tonight. If the car doesn't look like a plastic model S and actually is characteristic of their quality then the current share price of $230 will probably go up and never come down, just saying...
If the car is what they claim it to be then they will be unstoppable. However, I think if they really want to appeal to the masses, they need to keep the cars range above 300 miles for all models. Anything under that is just not doable for many people, especially in the US and Canada.
A couple years ago my dad was going to invest in Tesla but decided not to. Almost made three quarters of a million. Too bad almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades...
Black.BirdTesla is probably eventually sadly going to end up losing to apple, or will get bought out by apple in the near future, which would also suck.
And Apple has been in a steady decline since the death of Steve Jobs.
There's nowhere really left for them to go, the Apple Watch was a total failure.
Plus their products are hyped-up garbage, made by Chinese workers that breathe glass and live on suicide-watch, designed by entitled geeks and H1B workers in Cupertino, under a company that uses creative methods to pay as little in taxes as possible while spouting liberal politics.
Apple is the worst, but if you're a terrorist and your phone is locked, they've got your back.
Let us not forget that Enron was also a "hot stock" at one point.
In terms of the "lines around the block", never underestimate the purchasing power of stupid white people trying to jump on the latest trend.
CampeadorAnd Apple has been in a steady decline since the death of Steve Jobs.
There's nowhere really left for them to go, the Apple Watch was a total failure.
Plus their products are hyped-up garbage, made by Chinese workers that breathe glass and live on suicide-watch, designed by entitled geeks and H1B workers in Cupertino, under a company that uses creative methods to pay as little in taxes as possible while spouting liberal politics.
Apple is the worst, but if you're a terrorist and your phone is locked, they've got your back.
A. All large businesses receive astronomica amounts of gov subsidies, especially oil
B. You're comparing Elon Musk's company to Enron
C. Apple's market cap peaked 3 years after the death of Steve
D. Their garbage as you call it sells so well that Apple is more profitable than most countries.
Their CEO is a homosexual which you probably don't support. Apple pays more state and fed taxes than any other two companies combined. Please attemp a rebuttle.
sampsihoyosA. All large businesses receive astronomica amounts of gov subsidies, especially oil
B. You're comparing Elon Musk's company to Enron
C. Apple's market cap peaked 3 years after the death of Steve
D. Their garbage as you call it sells so well that Apple is more profitable than most countries.
Their CEO is a homosexual which you probably don't support. Apple pays more state and fed taxes than any other two companies combined. Please attemp a rebuttle.
Thanks for saving me 5 minutes writing that. That guy needs to read some facts. This is money, not emotion.
byuboundI really cannot see musk selling out to apple.
Unfortunately he won't be able to stop it from happening. It's all up to the shareholders. Apple is currently working on cars and they have $200 billion in the bank.
sampsihoyosA. All large businesses receive astronomica amounts of gov subsidies, especially oil
B. You're comparing Elon Musk's company to Enron
C. Apple's market cap peaked 3 years after the death of Steve
D. Their garbage as you call it sells so well that Apple is more profitable than most countries.
Their CEO is a homosexual which you probably don't support. Apple pays more state and fed taxes than any other two companies combined. Please attemp a rebuttle.
A. Here's the difference, chief, the vast majority of those businesses do not base their entire business model off siphoning off taxpayer money, to the tune of $4.9 billion dollars from the most recent figures I could find.
"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."
B. No, not exactly. I was comparing people giving advice on "hot stocks" on what are both essentially junk companies. The comparison ends there. Tesla is a rent-seeking, junk company, that uses taxpayer money to subsidize the whims of rich white people in Northern California.
Congratulations, if you pay taxes, you've subsidized some Silicon Valley schmuck's brand new Tesla!
That stock price? It's based off loose Silicon Valley venture capital, and crony capitalism. If there's a profit to be made by investing in corruption (I mean their stock), then by all means go for it, but don't tell me its anything but.
C. I'm not talking about market cap, I'm talking about the general direction of the company. Obviously Apple wasn't going to collapse after Jobs, he left enough of himself behind to keep the company successful. But in terms of the overall direction of the company, it's difficult to argue that Apple is the same company as it was under Jobs, it's in decline.
D. Again, it's mostly aesthetically pleasing garbage, repackaged ideas and products taken from elsewhere. Perhaps you missed my comment on stupid white people trying to be trendy? I definitely give Apple credit for being absolutely brilliant at marketing. Product though? Not so much. But hey, marketing is what matters, but they're running out of things to market, and that is of concern.
Oh and as far as Apple's taxes:
Apple, an iconic American firm, has the dubious honor of holding more money overseas—$181.1 billion—than any other US company, and would owe $59.2 billion in US taxes if those funds were brought back, according to the study. Microsoft has parked $108.3 billion offshore, while Google is holding $47.4 billion overseas, the study found.
The study reports that Apple has thus far paid a “miniscule 2.3 percent tax rate on its offshore profits"
CampeadorA. Here's the difference, chief, the vast majority of those businesses do not base their entire business model off siphoning off taxpayer money, to the tune of $4.9 billion dollars from the most recent figures I could find.
"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."
B. No, not exactly. I was comparing people giving advice on "hot stocks" on what are both essentially junk companies. The comparison ends there. Tesla is a rent-seeking, junk company, that uses taxpayer money to subsidize the whims of rich white people in Northern California.
Congratulations, if you pay taxes, you've subsidized some Silicon Valley schmuck's brand new Tesla!
That stock price? It's based off loose Silicon Valley venture capital, and crony capitalism. If there's a profit to be made by investing in corruption (I mean their stock), then by all means go for it, but don't tell me its anything but.
C. I'm not talking about market cap, I'm talking about the general direction of the company. Obviously Apple wasn't going to collapse after Jobs, he left enough of himself behind to keep the company successful. But in terms of the overall direction of the company, it's difficult to argue that Apple is the same company as it was under Jobs, it's in decline.
D. Again, it's mostly aesthetically pleasing garbage, repackaged ideas and products taken from elsewhere. Perhaps you missed my comment on stupid white people trying to be trendy? I definitely give Apple credit for being absolutely brilliant at marketing. Product though? Not so much. But hey, marketing is what matters, but they're running out of things to market, and that is of concern.
Oh and as far as Apple's taxes:
Apple, an iconic American firm, has the dubious honor of holding more money overseas—$181.1 billion—than any other US company, and would owe $59.2 billion in US taxes if those funds were brought back, according to the study. Microsoft has parked $108.3 billion offshore, while Google is holding $47.4 billion overseas, the study found.
The study reports that Apple has thus far paid a “miniscule 2.3 percent tax rate on its offshore profits"
Black.BirdUnfortunately he won't be able to stop it from happening. It's all up to the shareholders. Apple is currently working on cars and they have $200 billion in the bank.
I think this speculation about an Apple buyout (or some other company) is largely driving the direction of the stock price. There's just no justification at all for the current valuation of Tesla, a company with little prospect of turning a profit anytime in the near future.
Frankly, this is Tesla's only shot.
Call it the iCar and put a light-up Apple logo on the front and that shit will sell like hot cakes to all the clueless white yuppies in America who wants to feel good about themselves.
CampeadorD. Again, it's mostly aesthetically pleasing garbage, repackaged ideas and products taken from elsewhere. Perhaps you missed my comment on stupid white people trying to be trendy? I definitely give Apple credit for being absolutely brilliant at marketing. Product though? Not so much. But hey, marketing is what matters, but they're running out of things to market, and that is of concern.
Oh and as far as Apple's taxes:
Apple, an iconic American firm, has the dubious honor of holding more money overseas—$181.1 billion—than any other US company, and would owe $59.2 billion in US taxes if those funds were brought back, according to the study. Microsoft has parked $108.3 billion offshore, while Google is holding $47.4 billion overseas, the study found.
The study reports that Apple has thus far paid a “miniscule 2.3 percent tax rate on its offshore profits"
I have owned many Apple products, as have most people I know. I haven't heard of anyone having any issues with them (outside of their own fault - i.e., dropping phones, cracking screens, etc).
My MB Pro is going on 5-6 years now and outside a battery that doesn't last quite as long as it used to, not a single issue. I don't know of anyone else with a computer that can say the same.
As for the tax issue... What makes them hypocritical? Are they giving others a hard time for keeping money offshore? You gave examples of other tech companies doing the same thing, but you call Apple hypocritical? What makes them different than the other companies you named, outside of simply being bigger than them?
saskskierI have owned many Apple products, as have most people I know. I haven't heard of anyone having any issues with them (outside of their own fault - i.e., dropping phones, cracking screens, etc).
My MB Pro is going on 5-6 years now and outside a battery that doesn't last quite as long as it used to, not a single issue. I don't know of anyone else with a computer that can say the same.
As for the tax issue... What makes them hypocritical? Are they giving others a hard time for keeping money offshore? You gave examples of other tech companies doing the same thing, but you call Apple hypocritical? What makes them different than the other companies you named, outside of simply being bigger than them?
Perhaps I should be more clear, it's that the products are garbage relative to the price being paid. You're paying for the brand, and the marketing. If you do not believe me, compare any Apple computer to a PC with identical parts.
If you know anything about California, you would know that Apple is a big time pusher of left-wing liberal politics, especially in this state. If they truly believed in the politics they push, they would not seek to deny the state so much revenue. It's hypocritical to push for a government that imposes higher taxes, and then weasel out of paying for those higher taxes.
CampeadorAh the hypocrisy of the liberal executives at Apple, Microsoft, and Google knows no limits at all.
saskskierYou gave examples of other tech companies doing the same thing, but you call Apple hypocritical? What makes them different than the other companies you named, outside of simply being bigger than them?
Black.BirdUnfortunately he won't be able to stop it from happening. It's all up to the shareholders. Apple is currently working on cars and they have $200 billion in the bank.
He absolutely will be able to stop it. It will never be acquired or merged without his approval. It's not up to the shareholders, it's up to the board. Musk is Chairmain and two other board members have the name Musk on a 6 seat board - effectively controlling 50% of the board. Musk is also owns 27% of TSLA and the other major shareholders are institutional investors who never have, and never will, be activist investors. Tesla also requires a 2/3 majority vote for shareholder decisions. This doesn't even take into account the powers he will most likely have by proxy. It's his company. He makes he decisions.
--ski--He absolutely will be able to stop it. It will never be acquired or merged without his approval. It's not up to the shareholders, it's up to the board. Musk is Chairmain and two other board members have the name Musk on a 6 seat board - effectively controlling 50% of the board. Musk is also owns 27% of TSLA and the other major shareholders are institutional investors who never have, and never will, be activist investors. Tesla also requires a 2/3 majority vote for shareholder decisions. This doesn't even take into account the powers he will most likely have by proxy. It's his company. He makes he decisions.
I did not dive deep into this special case. Thank you for clearing it up, I can now sleep at night.
Dustin.Unless you are suggesting that Tesla is fraudulent, I don't know why any intelligent person would compare it to Enron.
Enron was off the cuff.
Here's a real comparison, SunEdison, once the world's largest green energy company, now bankrupt.
"News of SunEdison’s impending bankruptcy filing comes after the company’s shares fell 95 percent in the past 12 months, with shares now trading for less than $1 for the first time since the green energy company went public in 1995. SunEdison’s market value fell from $10 billion in July 2015 to around $400 million today."
"SunEdison and its subsidiaries got nearly $650 million in subsidies and tax credits from the federal government since 2000."
"It was the 13th most heavily-subsidized company in America."
Here's a real comparison, SunEdison, once the world's largest green energy company, now bankrupt.
"News of SunEdison’s impending bankruptcy filing comes after the company’s shares fell 95 percent in the past 12 months, with shares now trading for less than $1 for the first time since the green energy company went public in 1995. SunEdison’s market value fell from $10 billion in July 2015 to around $400 million today."
"SunEdison and its subsidiaries got nearly $650 million in subsidies and tax credits from the federal government since 2000."
"It was the 13th most heavily-subsidized company in America."
Difference: The average American doesn't know what Sun Edison is/was or that a windmill is at best 40% efficient 10% of the time. Tesla just sold 115,000 cars in 24 hours. Fanatical brand loyalty spreads quickly, I estimate this will continue. Put your money where your mouth is and short it for huge gains if you're so certain.
Dustin.Difference: The average American doesn't know what Sun Edison is/was or that a windmill is at best 40% efficient 10% of the time. Tesla just sold 115,000 cars in 24 hours. Fanatical brand loyalty spreads quickly, I estimate this will continue. Put your money where your mouth is and short it for huge gains if you're so certain.
This. Branding is going to carry Tesla a lot further than Sun Edison. As will it with Apple. It is a status symbol.
I do like the short idea, if you're so sure that Apple and Tesla are on the decline, get a short position on both.
Something tells me you read a few pieces decrying Tesla and Apple and instantly believe you are an expert on it. Any information you have presented is a very simplistic and lacks the actual figures that would make you seem like you are properly educated on the subject.
If you're so sure they're going to fail, go through their recent 10-Ks and 10-Qs, and show me their turnover rates, operating margins, revenue breakdowns, cash flows, etc.
Until then, you have are presenting a single thread of information and using your personal feelings to fill in the gaps.
.MASSHOLE.This. Branding is going to carry Tesla a lot further than Sun Edison. As will it with Apple. It is a status symbol.
I do like the short idea, if you're so sure that Apple and Tesla are on the decline, get a short position on both.
Something tells me you read a few pieces decrying Tesla and Apple and instantly believe you are an expert on it. Any information you have presented is a very simplistic and lacks the actual figures that would make you seem like you are properly educated on the subject.
If you're so sure they're going to fail, go through their recent 10-Ks and 10-Qs, and show me their turnover rates, operating margins, revenue breakdowns, cash flows, etc.
Until then, you have are presenting a single thread of information and using your personal feelings to fill in the gaps.
And you're not? Your projections are all based off of emotion ("branding"). I've given more facts than anyone in this thread, feel free to dispute them.
And I'm not writing a thesis on it, I'd invite you to go through the financial data if you feel so strongly.
Fact: Tesla loses money on every car (around $4,000).
Fact: Tesla relies completely on taxpayer-funded and other subsidies, among Musk's other companies, to the tune of $4.9 billion. Without these massive subsidies, Tesla would fold tomorrow.
Fact: Tesla relies on oil companies subsidies, in the form of "carbon credits".
Fact: Tesla has relied on a tax credits for consumers ($7,500 ea.) to drive purchases of the car. Those credits will soon come to an end.
Fact. Taxpayers are bankrolling the status symbols of mostly rich white people, concentrated primarily in Northern California, since the cars currently average around $90,000 to $100,00.
Fact: The cars are very prone to have serious maintenance issues,
Opinion: Less of a problem for luxury cars, a huge problem for mass-market cars produced in volume.
Fact: Tesla has no realistic outlook on when it will ever turn a profit (2020?).
Plenty of figures, plenty of facts.
If you want to comb through the financial statements to disprove me, that is your prerogative, and you probably should if you are planning on investing in a company that runs on pixie dust. I also know that Tesla practices some creative accounting between their GAAP and non-GAAP certified statements, so stick to the GAAP ones.
Maybe I'll short it when the time is right to rub some salt in the wound for you. I know well-off white people have emotional attachments to Apple, and now Tesla as well.
CampeadorAnd you're not? Your projections are all based off of emotion ("branding"). I've given more facts than anyone in this thread, feel free to dispute them.
And I'm not writing a thesis on it, I'd invite you to go through the financial data if you feel so strongly.
Fact: Tesla loses money on every car (around $4,000).
Fact: Tesla relies completely on taxpayer-funded and other subsidies, among Musk's other companies, to the tune of $4.9 billion. Without these massive subsidies, Tesla would fold tomorrow.
Fact: Tesla relies on oil companies subsidies, in the form of "carbon credits".
Fact: Tesla has relied on a tax credits for consumers ($7,500 ea.) to drive purchases of the car. Those credits will soon come to an end.
Fact. Taxpayers are bankrolling the status symbols of mostly rich white people, concentrated primarily in Northern California, since the cars currently average around $90,000 to $100,00.
Fact: The cars are very prone to have serious maintenance issues,
Opinion: Less of a problem for luxury cars, a huge problem for mass-market cars produced in volume.
Fact: Tesla has no realistic outlook on when it will ever turn a profit (2020?).
Plenty of figures, plenty of facts.
If you want to comb through the financial statements to disprove me, that is your prerogative, and you probably should if you are planning on investing in a company that runs on pixie dust. I also know that Tesla practices some creative accounting between their GAAP and non-GAAP certified statements, so stick to the GAAP ones.
Maybe I'll short it when the time is right to rub some salt in the wound for you. I know well-off white people have emotional attachments to Apple, and now Tesla as well.
I have better things to do then go through a company I have no desire or capital to invest in. Frankly, I hate Tesla cars, would never purchase one, and will never frankly invest in the company.
That being said, you're taking rudimentary figures (a $4000 dollar loss per car over the short term can be a gain in the long term due to inputs, investments, economies of scale, etc).
The wonderful thing about the stock market is that companies don't need to generate a profit now if people believe they will in the future (i.e. Biotech, Tech, etc) or if they will be bought out.
Cars are also a small part of what Tesla does, that's not why I bought it. But I am happy about the hype around the Model 3. I believe the home power units are promising as well.
.MASSHOLE.I have better things to do then go through a company I have no desire or capital to invest in. Frankly, I hate Tesla cars, would never purchase one, and will never frankly invest in the company.
That being said, you're taking rudimentary figures (a $4000 dollar loss per car over the short term can be a gain in the long term due to inputs, investments, economies of scale, etc).
The wonderful thing about the stock market is that companies don't need to generate a profit now if people believe they will in the future (i.e. Biotech, Tech, etc) or if they will be bought out.
I am not saying Tesla is valued properly, but to say it will be the next Enron is foolish.
I am curious "Craig" as to what your job is that allows you to be both an "expert" in international relations, economics, and accounting.
Who the hell trusts Non-GAAP financials anyway?
What kind of cut-rate hedge fund do you work at? Are you solely responsible for making the coffee? I know friends who actually work in finance and they would kill to have the amount of free time that you have.
Currently Tesla loses big on every car they sell. Tesla loses exactly $4,144 per car. Multiply that by about 50,000 cars sold (behind sales targets), means an overall loss of $207,200,000. That is absurd.
Also, what you call "rudimentary" figures are being reported on by every major outlet that has covered it. Here's another:
The fact that taxpayers and other companies have to subsidize this barn burner of a company is almost criminal. The queen of corporate welfare.
Tesla is just another overvalued tech/green company that produces nothing of real value, and has little prospect of ever turning a profit. They're not the first and they won't be the last.
The stock value is based entirely on the investor perception on the effectiveness of Tesla and Musk's rent-seeking cartel.
CampeadorTesla is just another overvalued tech/green company that produces nothing of real value, and has little prospect of ever turning a profit. They're not the first and they won't be the last.
The stock value is based entirely on the investor perception on the effectiveness of Tesla and Musk's rent-seeking cartel.
Not to mention the outlook on the auto industry as a whole is poor. Companies are turning record profits, but since the analysts don't see room for growth, stocks are stagnate.
CampeadorWhat kind of cut-rate hedge fund do you work at? Are you solely responsible for making the coffee? I know friends who actually work in finance and they would kill to have the amount of free time that you have.
Currently Tesla loses big on every car they sell. Tesla loses exactly $4,144 per car. Multiply that by about 50,000 cars sold (behind sales targets), means an overall loss of $207,200,000. That is absurd.
Also, what you call "rudimentary" figures are being reported on by every major outlet that has covered it. Here's another:
The fact that taxpayers and other companies have to subsidize this barn burner of a company is almost criminal. The queen of corporate welfare.
Tesla is just another overvalued tech/green company that produces nothing of real value, and has little prospect of ever turning a profit. They're not the first and they won't be the last.
The stock value is based entirely on the investor perception on the effectiveness of Tesla and Musk's rent-seeking cartel.
Currently. Currently. I will repeat that again. Currently.
Very few firms, except HFT firms, trade stocks like that short-term. So yes, they have issues in the short-term, but seeing as they very few issues with funding as it stands, there is no reason to abandon ship.
Also, that article you presented does two things to your argument.
Firstly, lets look at this "In the second quarter of 2013, the automaker made a profit per car of $1,941, and in 2014 it was even higher at a profit of $2,111 in 2014."
We can now assume that Tesla is looking at varying costs of operation, costs that are most likely explained in their financial statements.
Secondly, their losses do not include the fact that they have delayed revenues on some of their vehicles due to leasing.
It takes no more than 15 minutes to find the holes in your argument. You are thinking short term, not long term as I have said.
I am curious as to what you do though. You posted a video you said you made, yet it is from an NC State XC Runner.
