californiagrownsounds like a normal business arrangment. A contract worker works for a company that is financially struggling and consequently chooses to consolidate its resources in only a few areas of business. those contract employees not falling into those areas are either released, or are asked to stick around at a deep discount.

whats the issue here? Have you folks never lived life? For fucks sake, if there is more too it, then explain... otherwise you are all morons spreading malicious lies.

I think the community expects a higher degree of business ethics and corporate social responsibility from a company like Orage than it would from say Microsoft. People want to believe that the ski industry is still a little bit about the ski and not entirely about the industry, and customers are willing to support companies that share their values and punish ones that don't.

The referenced post has been removed.

Has been. I'd honestly never heard of him before this thread

CaseyI think the community expects a higher degree of business ethics and corporate social responsibility from a company like Orage than it would from say Microsoft. People want to believe that the ski industry is still a little bit about the ski and not entirely about the industry, and customers are willing to support companies that share their values and punish ones that don't.

Apparently not the case if Orage is struggling and consolidating its resources. This is all much ado about nothing. Orage decided to go another direction, end of story.

CaseyI think the community expects a higher degree of business ethics and corporate social responsibility from a company like Orage than it would from say Microsoft. People want to believe that the ski industry is still a little bit about the ski and not entirely about the industry, and customers are willing to support companies that share their values and punish ones that don't.

and that is a very childish and naive way to think. the fact that people expect someone to run their business into the ground to support a small niche, when their business has evolved into a much broader and more lucrative genre of skiing.

If Orage running its business... like a business is the reason for people(industry people no less) spreading the lie that Orage has poor business ethics, and is a POS company, then they dont deserve to work in the industry again. Hell, ill staqrt making up rumors about them- wouldnt be any more unethical.

californiagrownand that is a very childish and naive way to think. the fact that people expect someone to run their business into the ground to support a small niche, when their business has evolved into a much broader and more lucrative genre of skiing.

If Orage running its business... like a business is the reason for people(industry people no less) spreading the lie that Orage has poor business ethics, and is a POS company, then they dont deserve to work in the industry again. Hell, ill staqrt making up rumors about them- wouldnt be any more unethical.

I'm just saying that branding is a huge part of every ski company out there.

Would it be effective advertising for Line to do an Eric Pollard self edit with some macro shot of him quietly pressing a ski in a garage and have Jason Levinthal standing over him going, "if this early rise shit flops your fucking fired dude. I'm so serious, that Japan segment cost me ten grand this shit better sell!"

The point is the myth of ski companies being predominately in it for the love is what makes the world go round, people don't like to be confronted with the ugly business side of things.

CaseyI'm just saying that branding is a huge part of every ski company out there.

Would it be effective advertising for Line to do an Eric Pollard self edit with some macro shot of him quietly pressing a ski in a garage and have Jason Levinthal standing over him going, "if this early rise shit flops your fucking fired dude. I'm so serious, that Japan segment cost me ten grand this shit better sell!"

The point is the myth of ski companies being predominately in it for the love is what makes the world go round, people don't like to be confronted with the ugly business side of things.

If Pollard didn't help Line profit his contract would be changed accordingly.

CaseyI'm just saying that branding is a huge part of every ski company out there.

Would it be effective advertising for Line to do an Eric Pollard self edit with some macro shot of him quietly pressing a ski in a garage and have Jason Levinthal standing over him going, "if this early rise shit flops your fucking fired dude. I'm so serious, that Japan segment cost me ten grand this shit better sell!"

The point is the myth of ski companies being predominately in it for the love is what makes the world go round, people don't like to be confronted with the ugly business side of things.

I wouldnt expect such blatant chosen ignorance from so many people withing the industry. I dont believe they are that naive, i believe they are childishly trashing a company for operating like a normal company, and because they couldnt get their way. I hope "the industry" takes a good hard look at what the folks are saying, and how they are acting.

there is a large difference between publicly disagreeing with the direction of a company, and publicly accusing them of poor business ethics only because you got laid off.

dylholeIf Pollard didn't help Line profit his contract would be changed accordingly.

pretty much.

In the end, this will be a major financial loss for orage. Magnus Graner gives them major exposure. They lose that exposure; they lose money.

californiagrownthere is a large difference between publicly disagreeing with the direction of a company, and publicly accusing them of poor business ethics only because you got laid off.

I straight up don't understand how people are still defending Orage. There is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things, and the way they went about all of this was straight up wrong.

I'm not faulting them for dropping their team and changing the direction of the company. Executives make decisions for the company and the plans are carried out. But that shit just doesn't happen over night, and it sure as fuck doesn't happen in September.

When you've had people on your team for 5+ years you owe them a bit of respect. The worst people in this industry are are the ones that believe they are doing athletes a favor by hooking them up. Creating brand loyalty is just as much a task of the athlete as the people designing the gear. And these people were dropped, with no warning, in the late fall. Sure, the company wasn't profiting the way they wanted to based on these riders, but after that much service a guy deserves a fucking heads up.

The Phil discussion is fucked, for them to claim they were all peachy and down to support him and he just left is utter horseshit. Sure, let's take arguably our biggest rider, then drop his pro model and put him on flow. That's support!

Of course these decisions are going to be largely unpopular here, this is the demographic they've cut out. But there are also a few people that know how it went down and can't stand how they've played it off and tried taking the high road. Yes, that includes some disgruntled ex-riders employees, but honestly, why shouldn't it? Especially if they aren't willing to comment.

dylholeIf Pollard didn't help Line profit his contract would be changed accordingly.

That is entirely not the point. There is a right way and a wrong way to do business in the ski industry and how athletes are treated is important to consumers. Not that they were cut but how it was done matters, and everyone in this thread saying oh tough shit its just business is ignoring that fact.

simmersA giant, glaring, easily identifiable conflict of interest that makes the athlete side of this argument appear petty no matter how valid it may be.

Yeah, uh.. that didn't answer my question. I'm trying to stay neutral here and was asking why you're so strongly backing Orage. Instead you just reiterated what I said in the first sentence about a conflict of interest from one side of the issue.

CaseyThat is entirely not the point. There is a right way and a wrong way to do business in the ski industry and how athletes are treated is important to consumers. Not that they were cut but how it was done matters, and everyone in this thread saying oh tough shit its just business is ignoring that fact.

In my opinion it's just about 100% the opposite of what you say. Orage, and any other company (in or out of the ski industry) has the right to determine and carry out their individual business strategies, build or end relationships, and decide what is best route for the company, and the company's investors. Just because it's "the ski industry" doesn't mean success isn't measured by sales and profits.

If you don't like the way Orage handled themselves, don't support them, but don't sit on the sidelines with no teeth in the game and tell them how they need to run a business.

MiniMeDannyYeah, uh.. that didn't answer my question. I'm trying to stay neutral here and was asking why you're so strongly backing Orage. Instead you just reiterated what I said in the first sentence about a conflict of interest from one side of the issue.

I'm not backing Orage.

^ ^^ you guys sounds like old time bush leaguers full of jade and spite. Terminating a whole team(some of the best) without any clear communication is acceptable?

loganimlachAnd these people were dropped, with no warning, in the late fall.

Shouldn't there be something in the contract to protect the athletes from this? Also, if it was a case of not being re-signed, then shouldn't the athlete know it's a contract year and have everything aligned before the season starts? I have no idea how these agreements work

dylholeIn my opinion it's just about 100% the opposite of what you say. Orage, and any other company (in or out of the ski industry) has the right to determine and carry out their individual business strategies, build or end relationships, and decide what is best route for the company, and the company's investors. Just because it's "the ski industry" doesn't mean success isn't measured by sales and profits.

If you don't like the way Orage handled themselves, don't support them, but don't sit on the sidelines with no teeth in the game and tell them how they need to run a business.

Yeah they can do whatever they want, obviously. There isn't a single person in this thread trying to tell them how to run their business or saying they don't or shouldn't have the right to make the decisions that they did. No one is saying they don't have a right to make money and do what it takes to stay profitable.

I am saying that this industry is backed by a community of skiers that care about how its companies treat people, especially the professional skiers that represent their brand. I dont know how you can disagree with that, I would honestly believe you were trolling me if you weren't an orange name. Maybe this is an example where enough people care that they won't buy Orage stuff, but probably not, life will go on for them as well as their former team. I just simply don't understand what you are doing chiming in over and over as the obligatory dickass to restate the painfully obvious and defend bad behavior. Makes no sense to me.

c-walk69Shouldn't there be something in the contract to protect the athletes from this? Also, if it was a case of not being re-signed, then shouldn't the athlete know it's a contract year and have everything aligned before the season starts? I have no idea how these agreements work

It's true, nothing they did was illegal. But if you've been resigning the same contract every year for 5 years (or more), and you are still on top of the game, why would you even for a minute think that contract isn't going to be there? Generally if a long time rider is going to get dropped they get a bit of a heads up before contract time, all of those decisions are made in spring, if not earlier. I mean shit, Nike gave Sammy like 6 months notice just last year.

And Dylan, you've got to be shitting me. You're trying to tell me that come contract time in the fall of '08 after your ender in Enjoy that if all of a sudden Atomic just wasn't there, you'd be like "oh okay I get it, it's just marketing" and not be pissed? Maybe you're not as outspoken as some of these guys, but come on.

loganimlachAnd Dylan, you've got to be shitting me. You're trying to tell me that come contract time in the fall of '08 after your ender in Enjoy that if all of a sudden Atomic just wasn't there, you'd be like "oh okay I get it, it's just marketing" and not be pissed? Maybe you're not as outspoken as some of these guys, but come on.

I'd be bummed, but at the end of the day, it's the ski industry, and there still isn't significant money (especially for the athletes) so nothing is ever a sure thing. I never thought I was entitled to anything, and never assumed I'd just re-up contracts without risk. And to be honest, Atomic and I parted ways because they stopped supporting Rage, and I didn't want to move on from Rage and work on other projects Atomic was supporting.

I've had a falling out with a past sponsor in the past, but never thought it appropriate to be outspoken to the general public about our differences. Again, after all, it's the ski industry, and there is plenty of bullshit that comes along with it, but at the end of the day, life's not too bad if you're getting even a little support to fuck off with your friends in the mountains (or streets as the Orage debacle showcases).

dylholeI'd be bummed, but at the end of the day, it's the ski industry, and there still isn't significant money (especially for the athletes) so nothing is ever a sure thing. I never thought I was entitled to anything, and never assumed I'd just re-up contracts without risk. And to be honest, Atomic and I parted ways because they stopped supporting Rage, and I didn't want to move on from Rage and work on other projects Atomic was supporting.

I've had a falling out with a past sponsor in the past, but never thought it appropriate to be outspoken to the general public about our differences. Again, after all, it's the ski industry, and there is plenty of bullshit that comes along with it, but at the end of the day, life's not too bad if you're getting even a little support to fuck off with your friends in the mountains (or streets as the Orage debacle showcases).

That's because you are a professional dude with a good head on your shoulders.

Logan- why is it totally cool in your mind for certain dropped riders to act so unprofessionally, but when orage has to make some hard decisions to save the business it's them being unprofessional assholes. If you find orage shady, you sure as shit should be calling out magnus for being shady.

Perhaps this is just a difference in personality, but when UA decided to take a similar path and drop Ahmet; I don't remember hearing a thing about it. He was on UA for much longer as well (Magnus was only on Orage for a year). Ahmets a fucking G though.

And for those who are going to say "It's the way orage handled it", I don't see how a fresh athlete with a one-year contract thinks everything is guaranteed from there on. Also, in his answer, Magnus had gripes with their departure from urban/freestyle(?) skiing. His frustrations seemed to be why he was dropped, not necessarily how.

ps- this speculation is based on his reply, and I have no knowledge of any verbal promises he may (not) have had.

californiagrownThat's because you are a professional dude with a good head on your shoulders.

Logan- why is it totally cool in your mind for certain dropped riders to act so unprofessionally, but when orage has to make some hard decisions to save the business it's them being unprofessional assholes. If you find orage shady, you sure as shit should be calling out magnus for being shady.

I wouldn't call a company forcing their riders to ski for them with a completely different style and type of skiing while also refusing to pay them a cent as a hard decision to keep the business afloat, especially when one of those rider's image created their best selling product.

Pull your head outta your ass.

loganimlachBut he didn't even find out that he didn't have an outerwear sponsor until September. By then, most other team decisions are made and budgets are spoken for, leaving a rider with essentially half of the support they would normally get

Wow! Logan you summed up so well that I have NO idea why people are even arguing anymore.

If your a company and you need to fire people you can do it in two ways.

A) Give them a heads up ASAP so they can line up another job.

B) Wait until the last possible second and make it almost impossible for them to find a new job.

Both A, and B are correct ways to do business but one way is a bit slimy and you risk getting called out. Thats what is happening right now.

Simmer, Caligrown, whoever else you can stop now. Its ended. Let recap what we learned.

Orage = Re-branded and dropped people. Did it in a poor way.

NS/SBC = TMZ

**This post was edited on Feb 22nd 2016 at 6:36:26pm

skiermanI wouldn't call a company forcing their riders to ski for them with a completely different style and type of skiing while also refusing to pay them a cent as a hard decision to keep the business afloat.

Pull your head outta your ass.

Wait, what? Orage forced riders to ride for them? Lol.

Orage ownership came to the conclusion that park skiing was not a viable market to garner the majoriry of their business efforts. Hence they chose to pursue a different part of skiing- a sector much more profitable and faster growing. The employees who did not posses the skills, or desire to help orage in this transition were told that their services were no longer needed, but if worst came to worst for those employees, they were always welcome to free gear. I don't see the issue.

Please get your own head out of bdogs ass... The dick you're looking to suck is on the other side :)

If these people know "the real story" but are afraid to say what happened because they would come off as unprofessional, too late. There has been a lot of shit talking with absolutely no evidence or even he said she said. Just childish bullshit from people.

MiniMeDannyYeah, uh.. that didn't answer my question. I'm trying to stay neutral here and was asking why you're so strongly backing Orage. Instead you just reiterated what I said in the first sentence about a conflict of interest from one side of the issue.

maybe he has romantic aspirations, of rekindling an old sponsor?

16

SYMMS

JOHN

Salomon, Scott, Orage

http://vault.biglines.com/articles/ski-lineup-wssf

From his profile:

"Sponsors- none. if ur intrestid in sponcorizeing me, gimme a call "

The referenced post has been removed.

I got dropped by Orage in September one time. Does that count for anything?

californiagrownWait, what? Orage forced riders to ride for them? Lol.

Wow, you're a special kind of stupid.

skiermanWow, you're a special kind of stupid.

Haha I'm not the one who said Orage forced people to ski for them...

californiagrownHaha I'm not the one who said Orage forced people to ski for them...

but you are the one who only read the first half of the sentence.

I don't get why anything would have been done last second with this rebranding. Backcountry has been the obvious go to for money making in the ski industry for 5 years. If they weren't planning this move ages ago Orage truly sucks at business.

simmersI got dropped by Orage in September one time. Does that count for anything?

Yeah after years of getting 12th in pipe contests and having small obscure cameos in movies.

You are waaaaaaaay too smart to still have this stance on this situation so I'm calling full on troll.

loganimlachYeah after years of getting 12th in pipe contests and having small obscure cameos in movies.

ouch!

here you go symms

californiagrownHaha I'm not the one who said Orage forced people to ski for them...

Me either, you jackass.

I have always been against Orage, rode for them for two season and got dropped in 2012 for not qualifying in the Dew Tour.

hemlockjibber8but you are the one who only read the first half of the sentence.

I don't get why anything would have been done last second with this rebranding. Backcountry has been the obvious go to for money making in the ski industry for 5 years. If they weren't planning this move ages ago Orage truly sucks at business.

skiermanMe either, you jackass.

Nah i read the whole sentence. It was insinuated, actually directly said, that Orage forced the riders to do something they didnt want to do. That is simply laughable. Orage wanted to pursue a genre of skiing that was not represented by the team, so they chose to not renew their contracts.

Why did Magnus think he was going to be renewed? was he told that he was going to be renewed? Or was he told nothing and then not renewed? Similar case with the other riders?

Whats the story here? Until folks know the story, or tell the story, all you chuckleheads are acting like malicious teen girls spreading nasty rumors. Either have the fcuking balls to tell the whole damn story, or keep your mouth shut because life doesn't owe you shit.

californiagrownNah i read the whole sentence. It was insinuated, actually directly said, that Orage forced the riders to do something they didnt want to do. That is simply laughable.

Who would I rather believe, some jackass that cannot read a full sentence or someone who rode for Orage for years and has now blatantly stated that's exactly what Orage did to him?

You sir need a nice cup of bleach to clear that dirty head of yours.

skiermanWho would I rather believe, some jackass that cannot read a full sentence or someone who rode for Orage for years and has now blatantly stated that's exactly what Orage did to him?

You sir need a nice cup of bleach to clear that dirty head of yours.

You still maintain that orage forced their riders to do something they didnt want to do?

I dont think you know what "forced" means.

californiagrownNah i read the whole sentence. It was insinuated, actually directly said, that Orage forced the riders to do something they didnt want to do. That is simply laughable. Orage wanted to pursue a genre of skiing that was not represented by the team, so they chose to not renew their contracts.

Why did Magnus think he was going to be renewed? was he told that he was going to be renewed? Or was he told nothing and then not renewed? Similar case with the other riders?

Whats the story here? Until folks know the story, or tell the story, all you chuckleheads are acting like malicious teen girls spreading nasty rumors. Either have the fcuking balls to tell the whole damn story, or keep your mouth shut because life doesn't owe you shit.

Dude, between phil's post and my post a few pages back you have the whole story. Orage dropped a majority of their team in the late fall without having the decency to give them a heads up so they could look for another sponsor (believe it or not, that heads up is a pretty common practice within our industry). Then they told Phil he could stay on flow after they cut his pro model and his pay, knowing full well he would bounce, so that they could claim "he left".

Say your employer lets you go (you've been performing your job just fine), then you find out that they had known 6 months prior that was the plan. Wouldn't you be fucking pissed knowing you could have been looking for another job that whole time?

Jesus Christ, this is fucking baby food.

loganimlachDude, between phil's post and my post a few pages back you have the whole story. Orage dropped a majority of their team in the late fall without having the decency to give them a heads up so they could look for another sponsor (believe it or not, that heads up is a pretty common practice within our industry). Then they told Phil he could stay on flow after they cut his pro model and his pay, knowing full well he would bounce, so that they could claim "he left".

Say your employer lets you go (you've been performing your job just fine), then you find out that they had known 6 months prior that was the plan. Wouldn't you be fucking pissed knowing you could have been looking for another job that whole time?

Jesus Christ, this is fucking baby food.

Pffffffff. OK.

californiagrownYou still maintain that orage forced their riders to do something they didnt want to do?

I dont think you know what "forced" means.

SHUT. UP. YOU ARE LITERALLY DUMBER THAN I AM. AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING.

No, Orage did not force them to do anything but Orage said to Phil "you have to change your style and we're not giving you a dime(aka flow)." So no. They didn't force him/them to do anything. But if Phil had stayed with Orage he would have been forced into doing just that.

Jesus Christ. You constantly over analyze every little detail while disregarding other details of importance to twist people's words and run your argument in circles and it's so fucking annoying.

loganimlachDude, between phil's post and my post a few pages back you have the whole story. Orage dropped a majority of their team in the late fall without having the decency to give them a heads up so they could look for another sponsor (believe it or not, that heads up is a pretty common practice within our industry). Then they told Phil he could stay on flow after they cut his pro model and his pay, knowing full well he would bounce, so that they could claim "he left".

Say your employer lets you go (you've been performing your job just fine), then you find out that they had known 6 months prior that was the plan. Wouldn't you be fucking pissed knowing you could have been looking for another job that whole time?

Jesus Christ, this is fucking baby food.

I wouldn't be happy, but I also certainly wouldn't go around bashing the company.

Also I have worked as a contract employee, and as one I knew that job security was not there. I paid attention to workload, and asked my superiors how business was doing so I wouldn't be caught off guard. I also began to negotiate my new contract about 2 months before my contract ran out to make sure they could set aside budget for my hopeful raise.

I'd be shocked if the orage riders were doing that. Sounds like they just expected to be renewed, and took zero initiative... which shouldn't be the case. And

MinggSHUT. UP. YOU ARE LITERALLY DUMBER THAN I AM. AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING.

No, Orage did not force them to do anything but Orage said to Phil "you have to change your style and we're not giving you a dime(aka flow)." So no. They didn't force him/them to do anything. But if Phil had stayed with Orage he would have been forced into doing just that.

Jesus Christ. You constantly over analyze every little detail while disregarding other details of importance to twist people's words and run your argument in circles and it's so fucking annoying.

So why are people saying anyone was forced to do anything. The company wanted to pursue a different sector of skiing, and the employees who couldn't, or didn't want to get on board with the new direction where let go. It's simple. It's business. None of the riders were owed anything. Orage didn't renew contracts, but offered to help Phil out with product anyways if he couldn't find another outwear sponsor.

Lol if you are a contract employee and wait until your contract is up to start negotiating terms of your next contract you're a goddamn moron.

this thread made for a good read. 9/10

simmersI'm not backing Orage.

I used to think you were funny back when you wrote of ESPN. Now I just think you're a massive cunt.

EMKI used to think you were funny back when you wrote of ESPN. Now I just think you're a massive cunt.

Open your eyes dude. This place is a huge anti-Orage conspiracy. Even Mr. Bishop got dropped by Orage.

Don't be a sheep, bro.

simmersOpen your eyes dude. This place is a huge anti-Orage conspiracy. Even Mr. Bishop got dropped by Orage.

Don't be a sheep, bro.

I would now argue that Bishop has done more for freeskiing than you have Symms.

I fucking hate having to callout someone I absolutely honor for their honorable appearance in TBC, a movie I love, but you are on the wrong side of this. Take off your tie and remember the joy that is freeskiing.

Can we stop talking about Orage and how fucking dumb they are and start talking about Magnus' new ski from ON3P dropping next year.

RudyGarmischTake off your tie and remember the joy that is freeskiing.

Maybe YOU should try that haha. Remove yourself from the industry for a second and remember that the business side of freeskiing is separate from the side of freeskiing that provides all the joy to the normal folks here.

Just cause someone else can separate the two distinct sides to the "sport" shouldnt be reason for you to lose respect for them. But if it is, maybe your respect isnt of much value.