a lot of people become liberal in highschool/college. it's a thing. once they realize they want to keep the money they worked hard to earn, they come around and become more conservative.

byuboundLol wut?

Liberal view: 'Transgenderism is normal, and we should support those who undergo sex changes'

Research: Transgenderism is a 'mental disorder'- Paul McHugh, Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist. 'No robust evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective'- University of Birmingham ARIF

I don't really have time to write more before I go skiing, but the reason the right wing and left wing still exist is because there is evidence and logic supporting both sides. The things that are constantly in debate are gray areas. To say that there is no evidence based policy in conservative ideas is incredibly closed minded. I know I'm opening a huge can of worms with this post, but whatever, its the internet.

Strawman. Climate change, supply side, universal healthcare, de-regulation, MRTAs, pro choice etc the list goes on. The evidence is clear in many areas, but conservatives will cite one dissenting opinion and conclude that 'there is evidence on both sides'. No, there isn't, but regulating your carbon externality is going to hurt your bottom line, so funding some guy like Laffer is a good investment.

Granite_StateIts not free college. Its free, 2 year associate programs. That is a big difference. People are stupid.

2 year associate degrees aka community college degrees, which are already stupid cheap to begin with.

spaceghostpurpThis is also coming from a person who drinks "4 or 5 GALLONS of water a day" so this proves my point that liberals are not too sharp

nice personal attack. i don't expect you to believe it, but trying to disprove my political opinions because of that is pathetic. honestly, grow up

after i watched this season of south park i felt super liberal and really politcally involved, but i wasnt, i just sounded really gay

DeforestationHow can you possibly associate "being liberal" with "not doing research" and/or "having no good arguments"? I don't like to associate myself with political ideals and rather side with whatever I believe in on individual issues, independent of polital party, but I've found lately that people who describe themselves as conservative (especially ultra conservative) are generally whites with a high school education (if that) who automatically side with tradition and don't accept new, more realistic and fair, ideas. I mean Trump kicked a guy out of a rally recently for WEARING A TURBIN, and people cheered. Like how the fuck is that ok???

I'm not associating being liberal with not researching anything. There's plenty of conservative people who need to do there fair share as well. I just find it odd that literally my whole English class, including the teacher, are super liberal. I know some of them know what they're talking about but most don't at all. So that's why I was wondering if it was a trend.

Sorry for all of you who think I'm anti liberal and super conservative, I'm actually a mix of both liberal and conservative. And I know it's called the liberal arts for a reason I just don't get why everyone my age seems so liberal. Would it be different if Twitter and Facebook didn't have all the crap on it that it does?

.lenconWould it be different if Twitter and Facebook didn't have all the crap on it that it does?

yeah totally. I mean look at the young people of the 60's and 70's. Definitely not liberal....

.lenconI know it's called the liberal arts for a reason

Liberal arts: a wide breadth of subjects (in school) that one studies as opposed to very specified learning. Comes from a range of subjects the Ancient Greeks thought a free person should be proficient in.

Liberal: open to new ideas, government's job is to help people.

Not the same "liberal"

Peter.2 year associate degrees aka community college degrees, which are already stupid cheap to begin with.

Ummm yeah, something the majority of people on both sides of the political spectrum have a real hard time grasping...

But anyways, so if they're super cheap to begin with what's the big deal with making them free? I'd rather my tax dollars go to that than our ridiculous defense budget...

Granite_StateUmmm yeah, something the majority of people on both sides of the political spectrum have a real hard time grasping...

But anyways, so if they're super cheap to begin with what's the big deal with making them free? I'd rather my tax dollars go to that than our ridiculous defense budget...

Id rather have the biggest and best military and the ability to immediately engage in a world war at an industrial level. I think that is worth more to this country than saving a mediocre student a few hundred dollars per year.

Obviously its not that simple, but consider it an off the cuff response to your very valid off the cuff comment haha

californiagrownId rather have the biggest and best military and the ability to immediately engage in a world war at an industrial level. I think that is worth more to this country than saving a mediocre student a few hundred dollars per year.

Obviously its not that simple, but consider it an off the cuff response to your very valid off the cuff comment haha

America spends more money on their military than the next seven nations combined. 580 billion on defence is absurd. China spends 130 billion. There is no reason for America's defence budget to be so high.

DeforestationLiberal arts: a wide breadth of subjects (in school) that one studies as opposed to very specified learning. Comes from a range of subjects the Ancient Greeks thought a free person should be proficient in.

Liberal: open to new ideas, government's job is to help people.

Not the same "liberal"

Well they come from the same meaning. Like you said "liberal" means open to new ideas and "liberal arts" is a wide breadth of subjects.

So open to new ideas, lots of different subjects. Those aren't complete opposites.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/30665251/former-islamic-extremist-the-far-left-is-helping-isis/

S.J.WAmerica spends more money on their military than the next seven nations combined. 580 billion on defence is absurd. China spends 130 billion. There is no reason for America's defence budget to be so high.

Thanks to that spending we have some of the fastest advancing tech in the world

.MASSHOLE.https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/30665251/former-islamic-extremist-the-far-left-is-helping-isis/

a one second google search can find the exact opposite as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/syrian-refugee-backlash-isis-2015-11?r=US&IR=T

You can find journalism that backs either POV

S.J.Wa one second google search can find the exact opposite as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/syrian-refugee-backlash-isis-2015-11?r=US&IR=T

You can find journalism that backs either POV

That is my point.

I think you missed that. But that's OK. Can't expect everyone to realize the irony.

S.J.WAmerica spends more money on their military than the next seven nations combined. 580 billion on defence is absurd. China spends 130 billion. There is no reason for America's defence budget to be so high.

China doesnt have remotely an equivalent navy, nor such a worldwide military reach.

What would you like to see cut from the US's military?

californiagrownChina doesnt have remotely an equivalent navy, nor such a worldwide military reach.

What would you like to see cut from the US's military?

I don't know, I'm not an expert on military spending. But when you spend as much money as the next seven nations combined you know you're doing something wrong.

S.J.WI don't know, I'm not an expert on military spending. But when you spend as much money as the next seven nations combined you know you're doing something wrong.

When it comes to the killing people thing you don't really want to be just a little bit better. You want to be so much better it is not even a contest. Otherwise you end up with a lot more dead good guys - especially against a near-peer adversary. If you have so much money avalible that you can drop a bomb on anyone who shoots at you with an AK, you will bring a lot more people home than if you have to close with them under fire.

If you want to cut .mil funding you could start with the F35 15 years ago though, and a log of Air Force O-6 through O-10s.

californiagrownId rather have the biggest and best military and the ability to immediately engage in a world war at an industrial level. I think that is worth more to this country than saving a mediocre student a few hundred dollars per year.

Obviously its not that simple, but consider it an off the cuff response to your very valid off the cuff comment haha

To each their own I guess. Even if we cut our defense budget in half we'd still spend more than any other nation in the world. In fact I remember posting in another thread all the areas that could be cut.

Also, why is a student "mediocre" for trying to attain higher education? Even if its a two year degree?

The simple point im trying to make is that there is so much misinformation about Bernies policies floating around both sides of the political spectrum. Idk where free two year college became free college because there is an obvious, massive difference. And then I hear people bitch about where the money is going to come from even though Bernie made that pretty clear too.

I heard you guys suck six in a row.

Ralph_SwaggumWhat I've noticed is that it's really easy to be extremely conservative or liberal when you don't pay taxes, mom and dad cover all of your expenses and you've got no real grounding with how the world actually works as opposed to the base idealistic tendencies of politics, policing, race relations and economics.

Thread should have ended right here

Granite_StateTo each their own I guess. Even if we cut our defense budget in half we'd still spend more than any other nation in the world. In fact I remember posting in another thread all the areas that could be cut.

Also, why is a student "mediocre" for trying to attain higher education? Even if its a two year degree?

The simple point im trying to make is that there is so much misinformation about Bernies policies floating around both sides of the political spectrum. Idk where free two year college became free college because there is an obvious, massive difference. And then I hear people bitch about where the money is going to come from even though Bernie made that pretty clear too.

If we cut our defense budget by half we would also be cutting our military, its technology, R&D, and its international reach by half. something im not overly okay with. I like haveing the biggest stick, the most sticks, and in the most locations around the world.

A student is mediocre if they need financial aid to afford a community college. Those classes are a fucking joke, so if you cannot work full time while acing those classes, you are either not trying or are not a very bright person. The college years are, IMO, meant to teach young adults how to work hard and budget their time, and their money. It is setting you up for the realities of the "real" world.

S.J.WI don't know, I'm not an expert on military spending. But when you spend as much money as the next seven nations combined you know you're doing something wrong.

America can begin to fight a full scale war on any continent in 30 days and have the strongest military there... by a lot. I kinda like that trump card.

californiagrownAmerica can begin to fight a full scale war on any continent in 30 days and have the strongest military there... by a lot. I kinda like that trump card.

America needs to stop putting their dick in places where it doesn't belong. When you topple a dictator you're just creating a power vacuum to give way for IS, or whoever the fuck will rise up. Instead war should be used as the last resource, like with Iran and Obama. INB4 Obama conspiracy theory.

S.J.WAmerica needs to stop putting their dick in places where it doesn't belong. When you topple a dictator you're just creating a power vacuum to give way for IS, or whoever the fuck will rise up. Instead war should be used as the last resource, like with Iran and Obama. INB4 Obama conspiracy theory.

I think the biggest kid in the schoolyard has the ethical obligation to protect the small kids from bullies.

californiagrownI think the biggest kid in the schoolyard has the ethical obligation to protect the small kids from bullies.

I think the small kids need to fight for themselves.

californiagrownI think the biggest kid in the schoolyard has the ethical obligation to protect the small kids from bullies.

Half a million civilians died due to the Iraq war, and you still have the audacity to say you're being ethical??? Or what about that time the US invaded the wrong country after 9,11. Or when you went to vietnam, got your ass kicked and then pulled out leaving the south to fight for themselves. Where you being ethical then? Are you being ethical when you kill 50 civilians for one terrorist in a drone strike??? Are you being ethical when you have 50,000 homeless veterans. Is Guantanamo Bay ethical?

If any other country in the world did what the US did, they would be jailed for war crimes, crimes against humanity and an array of international crime.

the thing is that political views aren't sports teams

people go around labeling themselves and other people as liberal, or conservative, or whatever. but you can have values that represent both.

not every liberal person is an oversensitive pussy who thinks everything should be equal and nobody should have hurt feelings, and not every conservative person is a greedy gun toting racist.

S.J.WHalf a million civilians died due to the Iraq war, and you still have the audacity to say you're being ethical??? Or what about that time the US invaded the wrong country after 9,11. Or when you went to vietnam, got your ass kicked and then pulled out leaving the south to fight for themselves. Where you being ethical then? Are you being ethical when you kill 50 civilians for one terrorist in a drone strike??? Are you being ethical when you have 50,000 homeless veterans. Is Guantanamo Bay ethical?

If any other country in the world did what the US did, they would be jailed for war crimes, crimes against humanity and an array of international crime.

We didnt invade Iraq by accident, and we chouls have invaded that country anyways. We just didnt have a plan for what we would do after. That was the mistake.

We got our ass kicked in vietnam? Ya might want to look at those numbers again, champ. the american public just lost their taste for war and changed policy.

the one terrorist for 50 civilians is an oversimplification of a very, very difficult ethical question. And its very rarely a civilian ratio that high. Gitmo is, again, a very difficult ethical question that you are over simplifying.

As for the last paragraph, specifically, what policies are violations of the laws of war, or are crimes against humanity?

S.J.WHalf a million civilians died due to the Iraq war

If any other country in the world did what the US did, they would be jailed for war crimes, crimes against humanity and an array of international crime.

No one forecasted the rise of AQ Iraq after the disbanding the Iraqi army. One other thing to note is that Iraq was also a civil war fought along religious lines and in a place like that, it was bound to happen eventually.

Also, ain't nobody getting jailed for international crimes today unless they're a dictator.

Let's see, Russia has had their little adventures in Georgia and the Ukraine and no one has gone to jail over that.

This is really accurate, I don't identify with a specific party mostly because I want to stand behind the person I vote for, not just my party. I consider myself right in the dead center of conservative and liberal, and I don't really like any of the presidential candidates. I'll still be 17 during the election so I can't vote, but if I could I have no fucking idea who it would be for.

But I see what you mean by the hella liberal thing. I see a few Oregonians in this thread and I can agree with pretty much all of them. Oregon is feeling the fucking Bern and that's great and all but I'm not sure if I can 100% hop on the whole socialism train. Not bashing on anyone or anything, but that's just me at this current point.

tl;dr I think the whole party system is utterly retarded and has way too much control over our govenerment. So often we see people electing officials just because they're "liberal" or "conservative" when we should really be electing a person who is going to have the most positive effect on the people of the nation.

.lenconI'm not associating being liberal with not researching anything. There's plenty of conservative people who need to do there fair share as well. I just find it odd that literally my whole English class, including the teacher, are super liberal. I know some of them know what they're talking about but most don't at all. So that's why I was wondering if it was a trend.

Sorry for all of you who think I'm anti liberal and super conservative, I'm actually a mix of both liberal and conservative. And I know it's called the liberal arts for a reason I just don't get why everyone my age seems so liberal. Would it be different if Twitter and Facebook didn't have all the crap on it that it does?

Since the 1960s (and possibly earlier), the liberal/left side of the political spectrum has been dominated by a younger demographic. It's definitely not a trend. It's also a byproduct of a 2 party system that more or less forces people to identify with one party or the other. A natural, mechanical consequence of doing that is that most young people are going to side with left, since many of their own opinions are represented by that side.

Like you, I am a mix of both. I think most rational, educated people are as well simply because of the fact that you can't cleanly split the totality of ideas/thoughts/opinions into two camps. Do the Republicans/conservatives have some good ideas? Of course. Do the Democrats/liberals? Of course. However, when I look to the front runners who represent the current Republican party, there is no way I could ever vote for them. Their world views and beliefs are beyond regressive, in my opinion. The right is either going to be figureheaded by a completely bigoted billionaire or a blindly religious nut job who thinks God has a vested interest in America only. For me, the question of why I side with the liberals is a non-starter.

onenerdykidSince the 1960s (and possibly earlier), the liberal/left side of the political spectrum has been dominated by a younger demographic. It's definitely not a trend. It's also a byproduct of a 2 party system that more or less forces people to identify with one party or the other. A natural, mechanical consequence of doing that is that most young people are going to side with left, since many of their own opinions are represented by that side.

Like you, I am a mix of both. I think most rational, educated people are as well simply because of the fact that you can't cleanly split the totality of ideas/thoughts/opinions into two camps. Do the Republicans/conservatives have some good ideas? Of course. Do the Democrats/liberals? Of course. However, when I look to the front runners who represent the current Republican party, there is no way I could ever vote for them. Their world views and beliefs are beyond regressive, in my opinion. The right is either going to be figureheaded by a completely bigoted billionaire or a blindly religious nut job who thinks God has a vested interest in America only. For me, the question of why I side with the liberals is a non-starter.

Thank you for making a good post and explaining why people my age are so liberal.

And yeah it's crazy how split the parties are. Like republicans won't even address climate change because the democrats do. But something needs to be done. And it happens with both sides and it honestly baffles me why a true independent doesn't run. I guess they probably would have no chance of winning but still.

.lenconThank you for making a good post and explaining why people my age are so liberal.

And yeah it's crazy how split the parties are. Like republicans won't even address climate change because the democrats do. But something needs to be done. And it happens with both sides and it honestly baffles me why a true independent doesn't run. I guess they probably would have no chance of winning but still.

The 2000 election that saw Ralph Nader run against George Bush and Al Gore is a good example of why a 3rd party causes problems. The emergence of a 3rd party is typically an off-shoot of an existing main party and as such it splits that party into 2 smaller parties which renders both weaker than the remaining "unified" main party. Nader's Green Party essentially caused the liberal left to become divided and therefore weaker than the unified GOP. Nader took almost 3% of the vote (almost 3 million popular votes) and therefore arguably weakened the Democratic opposition to the Republicans. Bernie Sanders (who remember has been an Independent for over 30 years) is basically running on the Democratic platform for this very reason.

If the 2-party system is to end, it almost needs to be replaced by a 5-party system that can balance things out a bit better and not easily get lopsided with political party alliances.

honestly most high school/college kids base their political views off of social issues, like gay rights, racial issues, etc. Therefore, a lot of them identify as liberal. As people mature they come to see how for instance free college and free healthcare get paid for with taxes. It's easy to be liberal when it's not your own money being taken by the government.

ttelrabhonestly most high school/college kids base their political views off of social issues, like gay rights, racial issues, etc. Therefore, a lot of them identify as liberal. As people mature they come to see how for instance free college and free healthcare get paid for with taxes. It's easy to be liberal when it's not your own money being taken by the government.

The original thought behind conservatism is that they don't tax the people and provide services like welfare because the people are supposed to give charitably on their own. Now I'm not going to make blanket statements because I genuinely believe a lot of conservatives give privately but I do believe a lot of conservatives would be surprised to hear that this is the case.

There are people that work hard and don't mind paying taxes when it means things like roads and less homeless people.

ttelrabIt's easy to be liberal when it's not your own money being taken by the government.

Just like it's easy to be conservative when you've never had to worry about things like paying for health care, education, food, etc.

BogsJust like it's easy to be conservative when you've never had to worry about things like paying for health care, education, food, etc.

well yeah, you could make a case for that. but being raised in a family that works hard to be able to pay for those things plus more has obviously shaped my views. not trying to bash the liberal side but thats just my opinion

TingaThe original thought behind conservatism is that they don't tax the people and provide services like welfare because the people are supposed to give charitably on their own. Now I'm not going to make blanket statements because I genuinely believe a lot of conservatives give privately but I do believe a lot of conservatives would be surprised to hear that this is the case.

There are people that work hard and don't mind paying taxes when it means things like roads and less homeless people.

The "original thought" behind conservatism has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes. It has to do with slow change, respect for tradition and the idea that anyone who says, "finally, we have all the right answers", is being arrogant. Hell, criticism of the French Revolution has more to do with the origins of conservatism than taxes.

onenerdykidThe 2000 election that saw Ralph Nader run against George Bush and Al Gore is a good example of why a 3rd party causes problems. The emergence of a 3rd party is typically an off-shoot of an existing main party and as such it splits that party into 2 smaller parties which renders both weaker than the remaining "unified" main party. Nader's Green Party essentially caused the liberal left to become divided and therefore weaker than the unified GOP. Nader took almost 3% of the vote (almost 3 million popular votes) and therefore arguably weakened the Democratic opposition to the Republicans. Bernie Sanders (who remember has been an Independent for over 30 years) is basically running on the Democratic platform for this very reason.

If the 2-party system is to end, it almost needs to be replaced by a 5-party system that can balance things out a bit better and not easily get lopsided with political party alliances.

I would suggest that we're getting pretty close to a multi-party system in the USA. The divide between Sanders and Clinton, and between Trump/Cruz and Jeb Bush is growing wide enough that you could realistically split the Dems and GOP into two parties each.

Imagine a scenario where you have democratic socialist Bernie Sanders running against far-right wingnut Ted Cruz. Could you see a bunch of socially liberal but fiscally conservative democrats, independents and a bunch of libertarian republicans voting for a "Classical Liberal" party led by someone like Rand Paul? I could.

ttelrabwell yeah, you could make a case for that. but being raised in a family that works hard to be able to pay for those things plus more has obviously shaped my views. not trying to bash the liberal side but thats just my opinion

I'm not making a case for anything, I'm stating facts. It's just true. The same way some young liberals lack the perspective to understand that the money for things like free healthcare and education has to come from somewhere, young conservatives lack the perspective to understand that it's easy to criticize people for not wanting/having the means to pay for education, health care, food, etc. when they've never had to really think or worry about those things.

I'm also not bashing anyone's views, just hoping that people try to consider things like this from the perspective of someone not like them. It's not something many people seem to do well. I guess what I'm saying is your opinion seems very naive and narrow-minded.

Hopefully, as you mature, you'll realize that many, many people aren't born with the advantages you have had, and that hard work isn't some magic solution to being born without those advantages. Someday you'll learn that lots and lots of people work plenty hard without the money to show for it.

I also think it's very easy to be fiscally conservative when you don't see where your money goes. It's always funny to see how people react when government budgets come out, but really have never actually seen how their money is spent.

I work as a wildland firefighter and most people don't know how many lives, property, infrastructure is saved by their tax dollars each day. Im Canadian so the same can be said about our health care system, and policing services. Not to mention emergency services (flood remediation work, avalanche control, etc.), and education.

I could go on and on. I understand that some services can become bloated or corrupt but that can happen to any political party in power. Corruption happens to both sides.

Taxes are not just money coming out of your paycheque.

ttelrabhonestly most high school/college kids base their political views off of social issues, like gay rights, racial issues, etc. Therefore, a lot of them identify as liberal. As people mature they come to see how for instance free college and free healthcare get paid for with taxes. It's easy to be liberal when it's not your own money being taken by the government.

Im a left leaning libertarian but I disagree with this 100%. I work my ass off and pay all my expenses and I still like the left more than the right.

BogsHopefully, as you mature, you'll realize that many, many people aren't born with the advantages you have had, and that hard work isn't some magic solution to being born without those advantages. Someday you'll learn that lots and lots of people work plenty hard without the money to show for it.

It's not that i don't recognize that some people are born into bad situations. I am by no means wealthy, my parents are a teacher and an accountant. I just generally believe that the less the government can take from people the better, my opinion.

PringlePolitics are lame. I have no affect on the outcome of things so I'm not going to devote a second of my life to worrying about who wins.

I agree with Always Sunny

.lenconI'm not associating being liberal with not researching anything. There's plenty of conservative people who need to do there fair share as well.

Well that's good because conservatives have become insanely anti-science and anti-fact in the past decade. It is actually embarrassing how anti-intellectual the right has become. Also how quickly they latch to glaring falsehoods (Benghazi, Planned Parenthood etc), hilariously over the top stereotypes and basically completely ignoring the real problems in favor of monsters (Mexicans) under the bed. It has become the party of the mouth breathing idiot first and foremost- and that's coming from an old fucker who voted for Dubya back in the day.

Liberals as you put it- are largely far more educated than conservatives. That's why your teachers will almost all be liberal leaning. Also conservatives tend to be anti-govt and anti-public employee wage, so again what teacher would be against paying themselves a living wage?

Liberalism is the concern for society, perhaps at slightly more cost to the self. Conservatism is the concern for self at the cost of society.

A good country has a balance of both but our Republican Party has jumped the shark long ago. There can be no compromise now, it's one or the other and that is fucked.

californiagrownId rather have the biggest and best military and the ability to immediately engage in a world war at an industrial level. I think that is worth more to this country than saving a mediocre student a few hundred dollars per year.

Obviously its not that simple, but consider it an off the cuff response to your very valid off the cuff comment haha

Yeah but we already have that! Look I'm all for a strong military but there has to be a point at which we can say "we spend more than the next 17 nations combined on military, maybe we should fix some shit at home today".

That will never happen with today's Conservative party. Maybe if we

could convince our military to blow ourselves up we could fucking rebuild something. Oh wait they did that in Flint and just left it haha we are fucked.

S.J.WHalf a million civilians died due to the Iraq war, and you still have the audacity to say you're being ethical??? Or what about that time the US invaded the wrong country after 9,11. Or when you went to vietnam, got your ass kicked and then pulled out leaving the south to fight for themselves. Where you being ethical then? Are you being ethical when you kill 50 civilians for one terrorist in a drone strike??? Are you being ethical when you have 50,000 homeless veterans. Is Guantanamo Bay ethical?

If any other country in the world did what the US did, they would be jailed for war crimes, crimes against humanity and an array of international crime.

It's easy to sit at your keyboard and yell about civilian deaths and act like you care isn't it? Have you ever been to war? No? Didn't think so. You have no idea what it's like. Does ISIS or the Mujahideen, or Taliban, or whoever else follow the Geneva Convention? Hell no. If you kill someone in war you have to justify it beyond a reasonable doubt. But you just wish and want to say all Americans are just out there to kill and kill innocent civilians.

How about the US will start cutting the military budget when all the other countries stop calling on the US for help and solve some problems on their own.

.lenconThank you for making a good post and explaining why people my age are so liberal.

And yeah it's crazy how split the parties are. Like republicans won't even address climate change because the democrats do. But something needs to be done. And it happens with both sides and it honestly baffles me why a true independent doesn't run. I guess they probably would have no chance of winning but still.

this election has really shown the differences between the two parties. i promise there are conservative democrats and liberal republicans out there, they're just getting buried by all these extremists (Trump, Cruz, Sanders)