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Okay so this thread may seem weird. What exactly is all of these things like gender fluidity, pansexual, skoliosexual, and things like that? What are your views on it? Moreover, what is your view of transgender? Is that okay? I'm curious to know the opinions.
FBGMThe only thing I'm gonna say here is that just because it's not something you understand doesn't mean it isn't real. What I'm hearing from everyone posting saying it's bullshit is "it doesn't make sense to me, I haven't experienced this, therefore it doesn't exist." That seems extremely closed to me. It doesn't really make sense to jump to conclusions based on what is unknown.
Just playing the Devils advocate but you could make the same argument for God's existence
K-Dot.Just playing the Devils advocate but you could make the same argument for God's existence
I realize that, and that's exactly why I won't identify as an Atheist. I don't follow any religion, I don't believe in most of what it generally teaches, but logically I can't say flat out it's 100% bullshit if I don't really know.
The differences I see between transgenderism and religion is that those who identify as transgender do so based entirely on how they feel, with seemingly no external force convincing them to identify as such. With religion, people seem to take internal voids and replace them with external "truths." I can't really agree with that.
With that said, I'm neither religious nor transgender so I can't really state anything with great accuracy regarding either one. I do feel that it's a bit unfair to flat out deny something that is beyond one's own understanding, though.
Sno.Someone can "not agree with it," but still accept those that do.
For instance...someone may think that plastic surgery is not healthy for people-- so they "don't agree with plastic surgery as a treatment for body dysmorphic disorder," but they also think that their own personal opinion shouldn't dictate how others live their lives..so they are ok with others doing their own thing, and wont try to hinder anyone else's rights.
I am that way about abortion. Personally, I am pro-life. However, I also don't think that my own opinion should dictate what others can do or decide...so if someone wants to have an abortion that's their own choice, and I have no say--but I don't agree with the choice. I just think that the fact that "I don't agree," is meaningless for anyone else but myself, so I just keep it to myself.
I see and respect what you said about abortion but what choice here is/isn't being agreed with?
Like I already said, you don't choose your gender - it just is the way it is. How can you not agree that a certain gender is a thing if it isn't a person's choice to be that way? It's their choice to be open about it or not, but do you really want them to live a lie for their whole life?
The only choice that I see here is a transgender person getting body-transformation surgery, which is similar to your plastic surgery example. Let's analyze if it makes sense or not:
You said someone may not agree with it because they don't think it's healthy. So let's see how "healthy" is defined: "indicative of, conducive to, or promoting good health".
Well, what is health? "a person's mental or physical condition."
So, healthy means "indicative of, conducive to, or promoting a person's mental or physical condition."
Does plastic/transformation surgery promote a person's physical condition? Unless it's repairing something damaged, generally no, it doesn't. It's a decent risk to take as it can cause infections and other problems.
Does plastic/transformation surgery promote a person's mental condition? Absolutely. A transgender person who hasn't undergone surgery and hormone treatments feels incredibly mentally uncomfortable (read: poor health) in their own skin (literally). After treatment, their mental health is far better than before.
So if the mental health benefits outweigh the physical health benefits, can you really say that it's unhealthy, and therefore, not agree with it?
CheddarJackDoes plastic/transformation surgery promote a person's mental condition? Absolutely. After treatment, their mental health is far better than before.
You're stating this as fact, and it is not.
If someone believes that gender identity disorder is a disorder...and by current clinical definition it is, and someone doesn't agree with the use of plastic surgery as "treatment," for a disorder, it is their right to have that opinion. It is when people try to force their opinions on to others that it becomes a problem. Notice that I say "by current clinical definition," because at one point, people thought that being homosexual was a disorder that could be "treated," so things change, obviously, as more information on a given subject is found.
You're trying to prove that someone's opinion is not valid, and that transitioning from one sex to another is not something they have a right to "agree or disagree" with-- but the reality is that everyone has a right to disagree with something--its how they express that disagreement that you should have a problem with, and the poster you're responding to has decided to keep is disagreement to himself.
There are several things that someone could "disagree" with when it comes to transgender individuals:
-use of synthetic hormones to change one's body composition
-use of plastic surgery as a "treatment," or cure for what could currently arguably considered a "disorder," although I understand this is highly debated
-use of either of these treatments on minors
-affect of the changes on family
-rejecting natural biology and genetics
None of these are my opinions, but they are answers to your question of "what is there to disagree with?" And I think what you're mainly trying to get at, is that if someone is born a certain way, there's nothing to "disagree" with--and you'd be right, but the actions they take in response are certainly things someone could "disagree" with. People disagree with the way that other people live all the time. Whether or not they should is a different question all together.
^all of this being said, you obviously know everything that I stated-- its not news--I think you're obviously just being intentionally obtuse to make your point, but I think you're aiming your frustration at the wrong people.
Someone who says they "disagree" with someone life's decision to transition from one sex to another in that it doesn't align with their own morals or beliefs, but that doesn't try to impose that disagreement on anyone or try to hinder anyone's rights is not the person you should be worried about, in my opinion.
Sno.^all of this being said, you obviously know everything that I stated-- its not news--I think you're obviously just being intentionally obtuse to make your point, but I think you're aiming your frustration at the wrong people.
Someone who says they "disagree" with someone life's decision to transition from one sex to another in that it doesn't align with their own morals or beliefs, but that doesn't try to impose that disagreement on anyone or try to hinder anyone's rights is not the person you should be worried about, in my opinion.
Agreed. I do admit I came off a bit frustrated, but that was unintentional. I can tell you get what I'm saying so that's cool. My last post was simply to offer a point as to why disagreeing with it because you think it isn't healthy is close minded.
Yes, getting frustrated with someone who keeps their mouth closed about it may not solve any issues directly, but it's worth something. That little bit of knowledge can easily spread and it's not like the person I quoted will be the only one who reads my post.
Anyway, I began this discussion with the intention to make people think a bit harder than they may do currently about what they really mean when they say "I don't agree with." I hear it all the time and I feel as though it can mean a handful of things. On a side note, my brother says that when he doesn't believe me, whether it's political or not (last time it was when I was trying to explain a simple physics problem) and it really pisses me off because it's just a way for him to hide behind his words to sound like he's actually interested in what I have to say when he's going to stick to his own "beliefs" either way.
BogsYou do realize that the only reason it's a political movement is because of people who try to deny transgendered people rights, right? It's not transgendered people who are turning it into a political movement, it's the people opposing them who are.
trans people are not a real thing. i already explained that. what are "trans rights?" The right to use the other washroom? That just makes you a pervert.
Blindsurfertrans people are not a real thing. i already explained that. what are "trans rights?" The right to use the other washroom? That just makes you a pervert.
Blindsurferis it? what are rights that trans people would be specifically entitled to, besides the rights that everyone else already has?
I'm talking about you calling someone perverted for using a gender specific bathroom that is specific to a gender other than their own, or a gender other than their own assigned gender. I'm going to approach this while disregarding transgenderism because that's going to complicate things and I'd like to keep this single.
We have gender specific bathrooms for what reason? Safety from the opposite gender? Are we made to feel, for example, as women, that sharing a bathroom with men puts us in an unsafe position? Because all men are perverted and want to assault us, so we require a WOMEN ONLY bathroom in order to avoid being abused on any level? What's the issue with peeing in front of the opposite gender? Logically, nothing. Realistically, a lot of people are "pee shy" or "poop shy." But is that really an appropriate reason to have separate bathrooms based on gender? Who is to say that people weren't pee/poop shy until separate bathrooms were a thing anyway? Seems kind of silly. It's unfair to assume that someone is perverted by default because they want to use a bathroom that wasn't specified by some "authority figure" for them to use. It's ridiculous that using a gender specific bathroom is required by all people and non-negotiable, and if you disagree you're then labeled a pervert.
My point is that you seem brainwashed and very small to me if you truly believe someone could only possibly want to use a bathroom that hasn't been specified to them by some powerful source because they are perverted.
The.Natty.VeganNumber of times a person has used being transgender to peep on woman/men in the bathroom-0
Number of trans people who say they've been denied, harassed or assaulted trying to the restroom. 70%
i'd say those numbers make sense. if someone asked you, would you admit to going into the bathroom to peep on people? you obviously wouldn't. don't be stupid. i think it is totally reasonable to try and prevent someone who is obviously of the opposite sex from using the wrong washroom. assault is obviously too far, you shouldn't assault anybody unless it's in self-defence. but denial and heckling? totally reasonable
FBGMI'm talking about you calling someone perverted for using a gender specific bathroom that is specific to a gender other than their own, or a gender other than their own assigned gender. I'm going to approach this while disregarding transgenderism because that's going to complicate things and I'd like to keep this single.
We have gender specific bathrooms for what reason? Safety from the opposite gender? Are we made to feel, for example, as women, that sharing a bathroom with men puts us in an unsafe position? Because all men are perverted and want to assault us, so we require a WOMEN ONLY bathroom in order to avoid being abused on any level? What's the issue with peeing in front of the opposite gender? Logically, nothing. Realistically, a lot of people are "pee shy" or "poop shy." But is that really an appropriate reason to have separate bathrooms based on gender? Who is to say that people weren't pee/poop shy until separate bathrooms were a thing anyway? Seems kind of silly. It's unfair to assume that someone is perverted by default because they want to use a bathroom that wasn't specified by some "authority figure" for them to use. It's ridiculous that using a gender specific bathroom is required by all people and non-negotiable, and if you disagree you're then labeled a pervert.
My point is that you seem brainwashed and very small to me if you truly believe someone could only possibly want to use a bathroom that hasn't been specified to them by some powerful source because they are perverted.
lol. it's not about the fact that some authority assigned it. it's about the fact that as a young child i logically deduced i should be in the bathroom with the other boys, not the girls' bathroom. and yes, that is why there are gender-exclusive bathrooms. not all men are going to assault a woman if they find themselves in the bathroom with them, but there are certainly some men out there that would, and vice-versa. stop looking through your rose-coloured PC glasses and see reality for how it is.
Blindsurferi'd say those numbers make sense. if someone asked you, would you admit to going into the bathroom to peep on people? you obviously wouldn't. don't be stupid. i think it is totally reasonable to try and prevent someone who is obviously of the opposite sex from using the wrong washroom. assault is obviously too far, you shouldn't assault anybody unless it's in self-defence. but denial and heckling? totally reasonable
Number of people charged who has cross dressed and walked into a bathroom to peep on the opposite sex? 0.
Should we also ban gays from using the bathroom because they might peep on my willy? No because that's fucking dumb.
How is denial and heckling totally reasonable? One in four transgender people will attempt to commit suicide. And it because of this complete bullshit like this. No one is saying you have to be best friends with a trans person, you're more than free to disagree with their choices. But just realise that Trans people are human just like you and me and just treat them with the respect you'd treat anyone, regardless of whether or not you agree with their choices.
Blindsurferlol. it's not about the fact that some authority assigned it. it's about the fact that as a young child i logically deduced i should be in the bathroom with the other boys, not the girls' bathroom. and yes, that is why there are gender-exclusive bathrooms. not all men are going to assault a woman if they find themselves in the bathroom with them, but there are certainly some men out there that would, and vice-versa. stop looking through your rose-coloured PC glasses and see reality for how it is.
You literally said just a few posts up that the only reason anyone would use a bathroom designated for the opposite gender is because they are a pervert. I have no "rose-colored PC glasses" on. I'm not sensitive to all things PC, but there's a line, and some things are inappropriate and important to talk about. Reading through your posts in not only this thread but others as well, it is very clear to me that you're pretty intolerant and disinterested in any way that isn't your own way. As I said before, it's ignorant to straight up deny and reject something just because you can't relate to it.
The.Natty.VeganNumber of people charged who has cross dressed and walked into a bathroom to peep on the opposite sex? 0.
Should we also ban gays from using the bathroom because they might peep on my willy? No because that's fucking dumb.
How is denial and heckling totally reasonable? One in four transgender people will attempt to commit suicide. And it because of this complete bullshit like this. No one is saying you have to be best friends with a trans person, you're more than free to disagree with their choices. But just realise that Trans people are human just like you and me and just treat them with the respect you'd treat anyone, regardless of whether or not you agree with their choices.
depressed people account for 1 in 4 of all suicides. does that mean we should just let them be depressed, call them heroes and give them "depressed rights." fuck no. we look into curing their mental illness you idiot
Blindsurferdepressed people account for 1 in 4 of all suicides. does that mean we should just let them be depressed, call them heroes and give them "depressed rights." fuck no. we look into curing their mental illness you idiot
Your ignorance fathoms me. Being transgender is not a mental illness. An illness can be cured. I find it funny how everyone without a medical degree will call being trans a mental illness but the American Psychological association says it's not. You don't suffer from being transgender you suffer from other people.
FBGMYou literally said just a few posts up that the only reason anyone would use a bathroom designated for the opposite gender is because they are a pervert. I have no "rose-colored PC glasses" on. I'm not sensitive to all things PC, but there's a line, and some things are inappropriate and important to talk about. Reading through your posts in not only this thread but others as well, it is very clear to me that you're pretty intolerant and disinterested in any way that isn't your own way. As I said before, it's ignorant to straight up deny and reject something just because you can't relate to it.
it's not because i don't relate to it. it's because it's stupid and inane.
californiagrownNo, I'm calling you out as lacking logic or rationale. Basically you are a mental midget.
Transgender folks affect you as much as a person wearing a red T-shirt.
Lacking logic? What logic?. I'm free to have my own beliefs, and if you don't agree with them, then don't, thats fine. This is a free country. But don't call me a "mental midget" just because you don't agree with me. Thats just idiotic on your part. We can agree to disagree, but don't call me out because of it. You're just butthurt that I have a different opinion than you
Blindsurferdepressed people account for 1 in 4 of all suicides. does that mean we should just let them be depressed, call them heroes and give them "depressed rights." fuck no. we look into curing their mental illness you idiot
Going by your logic, transgender people are sick. Guess what the cure is? Switching sexes. Zero side effects other than biggots like you.
You're an idiot on a whole lotta levels. Fucking knumbskull.
Blindsurferwhat are "trans rights?" The right to use the other washroom? That just makes you a pervert.
No, the right to being able to get a job and find a home like everybody else. Transgender people are routinely denied these things just for being transgender. If they were treated like gender normative people, there would be no political movement. But, because it is the gender-normative, bigoted people who are mistreating and abusing transgender people, it is their fault there is a political movement for trans rights. So, again, if you want to be pissed at somebody that there is currently a political movement to raise awareness about transgender people, blame the bigoted people who are mistreating them, not the trans people themselves.
Like I said in the other thread, you clearly just don't know very much about transgender people and the kinds of things they have to deal with every day, and I suggest you try and learn more before continuing to talk about it. You may be surprised at what you find.
californiagrownGoing by your logic, transgender people are sick. Guess what the cure is? Switching sexes. Zero side effects other than biggots like you.
You're an idiot on a whole lotta levels. Fucking knumbskull.
gnar_whalLacking logic? What logic?. I'm free to have my own beliefs, and if you don't agree with them, then don't, thats fine. This is a free country. But don't call me a "mental midget" just because you don't agree with me. Thats just idiotic on your part. We can agree to disagree, but don't call me out because of it. You're just butthurt that I have a different opinion than you
You agreed with the guy who said that "maybe I'll stop talking shit when they stop being trans".
They aren't affecting you, but your hate speech affects them. And then there is the fact that even the bible doesn't forbid or mention trans... So I'm left with the question: what caused you to have so much hate for absolutely no reason.
californiagrownYou agreed with the guy who said that "maybe I'll stop talking shit when they stop being trans".
They aren't affecting you, but your hate speech affects them. And then there is the fact that even the bible doesn't forbid or mention trans... So I'm left with the question: what caused you to have so much hate for absolutely no reason.
"Tell them not to infringe on my morals and maybe I won't."
I agreed with this statement. I don't go out there and hate on people who are homo, trans, bi, whatever sexual. I don't have anything against them, I just have different beliefs of what a relationship should be. You can disagree with someone without being a complete asshole. I
californiagrownIt sucks when your own logic, outlogic's you... Huh? Lol.
lol what? i am in no way religious nor do i subscribe to any holy book. i'm just saying that if the bible, one of the most prejudiced and hate-filled texts of all time, doesn't even acknowledge a hate-able thing as real, it clearly must not be real.
Blindsurferreally? show me the cures for cancer, AIDS, MS, herpes, lupus, and every mental illness out there. you're fucking stupid.
So you think you know more about mental illness than doctors who went to school for years upon years and have studied psychological disorders and have deemed being transgender as not a mental disorder.
But I find it extremely hard to take you seriously when you take shirtless selfies.
gnar_whal"Tell them not to infringe on my morals and maybe I won't."
I agreed with this statement. I don't go out there and hate on people who are homo, trans, bi, whatever sexual. I don't have anything against them, I just have different beliefs of what a relationship should be. You can disagree with someone without being a complete asshole. I
Sweet. Mind your own damn business while they mind their's. Makes for a happy and peaceful world.
Curiously, why is it against your morals?
Blindsurferlol what? i am in no way religious nor do i subscribe to any holy book. i'm just saying that if the bible, one of the most prejudiced and hate-filled texts of all time, doesn't even acknowledge a hate-able thing as real, it clearly must not be real.
You sickness analogy backfired pretty bad on you. But hey, let's just gloss over that.
As for the bible, maybe it was such an insignificant thingvto god that he didn't mention it. I don't remember any mention of gingers in the good book either...
Blindsurferobviously, because trans isn't a real thing
If it isn't a real thing why would people be identifying as transgender? To make their lives easier? Because they get more respect as trans people than when they identify as their assigned-at-birth gender? Yeah, right. Even if the idea of being transgender comes from a mental illness, why does that make it any less valid? I'm Bipolar, does that mean that the subsequent emotions aren't ones that I feel? No, I feel them, they are real. Some of them are not on the normal spectrum of human emotions, but they exist. You're going to deny that too because if I had to guess I'd say you're not Bipolar, and you have no idea what it's like. And yeah, since you don't know what it's like to experience said emotions, you don't understand them and they MUST be fake.
The.Natty.VeganSo you think you know more about mental illness than doctors who went to school for years upon years and have studied psychological disorders and have deemed being transgender as not a mental disorder.
But I find it extremely hard to take you seriously when you take shirtless selfies.
big man, nice job skating around my question, and good use of the ad hominem fallacy. kudos to you for exposing yourself as an idiot, great job.
by the way, i'll have you know that more than 20 people liked that picture, so i have enough internet validation to feel great about myself. who's laughing now? probably you, because you have zero likes and therefore zero friends
Blindsurferbig man, nice job skating around my question, and good use of the ad hominem fallacy. kudos to you for exposing yourself as an idiot, great job.
by the way, i'll have you know that more than 20 people liked that picture, so i have enough internet validation to feel great about myself. who's laughing now? probably you, because you have zero likes and therefore zero friends
Lol pot calling the kettle back with an ad hominem fallacy. I didn't dodge any of your questions because a cure for aids is irrelevant to a transgender conversation. Now answer my question, why do you think you know more about transgenderism than the American Psychological association? They don't define it as a mental disorder.
But let's take this to a more person level. You're black. There was a time in history when your colour was considered less. Now there were people who stood up for your rights. And now you have every right that a white person does. So why is a transgender person less because they identify as an opposite gender?
The.Natty.VeganLol pot calling the kettle back with an ad hominem fallacy. I didn't dodge any of your questions because a cure for aids is irrelevant to a transgender conversation. Now answer my question, why do you think you know more about transgenderism than the American Psychological association? They don't define it as a mental disorder.
But let's take this to a more person level. You're black. There was a time in history when your colour was considered less. Now there were people who stood up for your rights. And now you have every right that a white person does. So why is a transgender person less because they identify as an opposite gender?
because i didn't choose to make my skin dark, and neither did any other black people on the entire planet. it is a choice to get breast implants or start taking wack hormone medication or get your genitals mutilated. you're still an idiot bro. i'd also try to embarrass you by posting some silly pic from social media, but realistically you're ugly so i don't want to put in that much effort.
Blindsurferbecause i didn't choose to make my skin dark, and neither did any other black people on the entire planet. it is a choice to get breast implants or start taking wack hormone medication or get your genitals mutilated. you're still an idiot bro. i'd also try to embarrass you by posting some silly pic from social media, but realistically you're ugly so i don't want to put in that much effort.
You're still ignoring my post about how you apparently know more about transgenderism being a mental disorder than the american psychological association.
But now I know you're a troll from your other thread. So congratulations on being the world's worst troll. No one has lost their temper, nor has anyone really even taken you seriously. But if you're not a troll, I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you are so held onto your prejudices that you refuse to acknowledge other people's opinions. (including that of medical professionals). I feel sorry that you judge someone based on something so trivial as them identifying as the opposite gender. And i feel sorry that your life is filled with hate. You are going to have a very sad existence and when you finally reach an age at where people judge you by your character instead of whether or not you can take a sick shirtless selfie you are going to be alone. And if you choose to surround yourself with hate then you're going to be depressed for your whole life. So for the sake of your future, your own health and happiness I suggest being a little more open minded and not holding onto your prejudices so much. Go out and live a little, meet some trans people and you will realise that they are some of the most amazing people you will meet.
californiagrownCuriously, why is it against your morals?
Honestly, for me at least it's not really "against my morals" as it is for some people. It's more that I believe in a traditional relationship between a man and a woman.
The.Natty.VeganYou're still ignoring my post about how you apparently know more about transgenderism being a mental disorder than the american psychological association.
But now I know you're a troll from your other thread. So congratulations on being the world's worst troll. No one has lost their temper, nor has anyone really even taken you seriously. But if you're not a troll, I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you are so held onto your prejudices that you refuse to acknowledge other people's opinions. (including that of medical professionals). I feel sorry that you judge someone based on something so trivial as them identifying as the opposite gender. And i feel sorry that your life is filled with hate. You are going to have a very sad existence and when you finally reach an age at where people judge you by your character instead of whether or not you can take a sick shirtless selfie you are going to be alone. And if you choose to surround yourself with hate then you're going to be depressed for your whole life. So for the sake of your future, your own health and happiness I suggest being a little more open minded and not holding onto your prejudices so much. Go out and live a little, meet some trans people and you will realise that they are some of the most amazing people you will meet.
gnar_whalHonestly, for me at least it's not really "against my morals" as it is for some people. It's more that I believe in a traditional relationship between a man and a woman.
Why is that the only acceptable relationship in your eyes? Why are the other types unacceptable?
Youre saying that folks need to subscribe to your brand of sexuality, or they are not deserving of the same rights? How would you like it if you were only allowed to marry dudes?
californiagrownWhy is that the only acceptable relationship in your eyes? Why are the other types unacceptable?
Youre saying that folks need to subscribe to your brand of sexuality, or they are not deserving of the same rights? How would you like it if you were only allowed to marry dudes?
I never said they shouldn't have the same rights, you're picking words out of thin air. I didn't say that's the only acceptable relationship either, I didn't say anything about a traditional relationship being the only one way. I said that I personally believe in a traditional relationship between a man and a woman. I never condemned any other type of relationship. Quit making things up to support your pointless argument
BRB, just going to follow your girlfriend on instagram, DM her this thread and let her see how much of a transphobic asshole you are. See who the mad one is when she breaks up with you for being a cunt. But pls don't use that big scary gun you take selfies with on me.