Why would anyone want a ski built by the lowest bidder? (aka China)

Companies like Line/K2 choose profit margins over building a half way decent product. Ski products/jobs in North America is where it's at. That China shit just doesn't hold up. Never again

I think it's more to do with the fact they're independent ski brands more then the fact they're N American. If you're producing and manufacturing less skis you can spend more time on quality control etc.

There are indy European ski brands but generally workshops and factories are a lot more expensive to set up. Plus bigger brands in Europe are well established which I think makes it harder for new smaller brands to get noticed.

To be fair, the large brands do produce hand-made skis, but these tend to be race products rather than freeski. That said - and with respect to the wonderful people at ON3P - the people who do make them are some of the very best craftsmen in the world.

omIVTo be fair, the large brands do produce hand-made skis, but these tend to be race products rather than freeski

it's more like all skis are handmade with the aids of machinery. you can't dump a bunch of ingredients in a mixer and a ski magically pops out. and you can't completely make a ski by hand. a ski needs to be laid up and pressed. no matter what country it is made in.

This is ridiculous. looking at the poll it 45% of people said they "would NEVER buy a ski built in china" and yet that is the vast majority of skis i see on the slopes. Something here isnt adding up...

LUPTONThis is ridiculous. looking at the poll it 45% of people said they "would NEVER buy a ski built in china" and yet that is the vast majority of skis i see on the slopes. Something here isnt adding up...

at the time of this post, there are only 12 votes. so, it isn't implausible to think that 5 people have a ski made in the usa, canada, or anywhere in europe.

Even though I'm a Norwegian person living in Norway (!), I ordered the ON3P Filthy Riches, built in AMERICA, because I knew North-Americans build skis properly. One of my former skis, the Line Chronics, got damaged on the fifth day I used them so...

Conclusion: North-Americans build high quality products, China do not. And I suck at English....

Hahaha this whole thing is skewed so much by a dude in Portland named Scott.

Seriously, how many companies even make skis in the USA anymore? Three?

J.D.Hahaha this whole thing is skewed so much by a dude in Portland named Scott.

Seriously, how many companies even make skis in the USA anymore? Three?

I can name 3 without thinking.

ON3P, Liberty, and RMU

I would love to hear from JLev. Line originated in his garage. Then they manufactured in Canada at the old Karhu plant. I'm not sure where else they went. But, I bought a pair of kids LINE park Skis that say "Made in Austria" and those boards are still in use and handed down 3 times, great quality. Jason may not weigh in, but he started a whole new ski company J skis (which are manufactured in Canada) after LINE became made in China. I have heard good things about the quality of "J" and their customer service when a failure occurs.

Made in USA skis have been pretty good. *K2 in the Vashon Island, WA days. And now Colorado brands "HIGH SOCIETY" "Meier Skis,""Icelantic," "Wagner"are all getting a great reputation for quality and they are all made in Colorado. And many USA brands are the most environmentally sound board manufacturers with LIB TECH nas from Mervin Manufacturing probably leading the way in green tech.

*K2 is now manufactured in China

loganschnurI can name 3 without thinking.

ON3P, Liberty, and RMU

Don't think too hard. Most people don't make their own skis, and even fewer do so in North America.

Liberty is made in China.

RMU is made in Denver (Never Summer) and Quebec (Utopie).

Never Summer is also building Icelantic, Fatypus, and High Society.

Utopie is also building Jskis, HG, and Stanston.

Goes for Europe, too, where you see Faction, Apo, Amplid, Majesty, White Dot, and so on all be made by large factories over there.

There is a huge difference in my mind between companies building their own product and those paying to have someone else build their product (in both North America and Europe). That isn't to say that these companies outsourcing production build bad skis - just that the job they do and the one done by those who build their own product is vastly different. I consider ON3P a manufacturing company. We compete with a bunch of design and marketing companies.

There are TONS of small builders building in North America right now (say anywhere from 50-750 skis per year). But if you are looking for real factories running production volumes (say, at a minimum, 50 pairs/week) in the North America building their own product? Only ones I can think of are ON3P, Moment, Praxis, Ramp, DPS (Pure skis only) and Mervin (and most of Mervin's production is snowboards). Pretty small group when you get down to it.

Also, should be stated that there are good skis being build in North America, China, and Europe, just as there are bad skis being build in North America, China, and Europe. For me, I have a lot of respect for companies who build their own products because I know just how much work goes into producing skis. That's just me though...

If a company has a drive and vision to produce some killer gear, then im all for that. Obviously having a ski-making tradition like Europe has had for centuries now kind of helps, but I don't think borders should decide who makes the best piece of equipment. Just let the skis do the talking, and base your opinion off of ha.

I don't care if my skis are made in China. I think incorporating patriotism and business is a pretty bad decision. I'll buy my skis based on reviews and quality.

China has cheaper production costs and they can maximise their production possibility frontier. With less production costs, resources can be allocated else where. However from history Line and other companies that produce in China choose to ignore this and try to maximise their profit.

Additionally, China's economy relies on their export industry to maintain their strong economic growth at an average of 8-12%.

For me the concern is what company is making the skis, not where it is. For example, I'm pretty sure that even though k2s are made in china they own the factory. And K2s are bombproof. I've never seen one in bad condition and frequently see 4-5 yr old skis from them. Companies outsourcing all manufacturing to other companies is a little scary though. Idk how many ski companies do this but it was brought up in an article somewhere that a lot of snowboard companies do it.

Thanks Stumpa. Simple answer, the location of your factory has nothing to do with making a good or bad ski. It's not dependent on climate, like growing grapes to make wine. Location only matters if you want your purchase to help support jobs in a specific region of the world, then buy product made there. Otherwise, the ski's engineered shape, construction, materials, manufacturing process & quality control is what actually makes a ski really good or really bad. If any one of those ingredients is bad, you'll have a bad ski. Some of the best and worst skis in the world are built only miles apart from each other. There are lots of bad skis made in China, but Volkle and DPS are considered high quality skis, and they build skis in China. . . in addition to their own in-house factories in Germany & US. The only way to know if a ski is good or bad is to ride it!

JLevThanks Stumpa. Simple answer, the location of your factory has nothing to do with making a good or bad ski. It's not dependent on climate, like growing grapes to make wine. Location only matters if you want your purchase to help support jobs in a specific region of the world, then buy product made there. Otherwise, the ski's engineered shape, construction, materials, manufacturing process & quality control is what actually makes a ski really good or really bad. If any one of those ingredients is bad, you'll have a bad ski. Some of the best and worst skis in the world are built only miles apart from each other. There are lots of bad skis made in China, but Volkle and DPS are considered high quality skis, and they build skis in China. . . in addition to their own in-house factories in Germany & US. The only way to know if a ski is good or bad is to ride it!

Than why are so many companies making skis (and everything else) in China? You know JLEV, how much did it cost to make a pair of Chinese skis? 10 or 20 bucks? If that? Than resold to the consumer at a massive mark up. Lets be real, thats the real reason skis are made there, not because they are equally good to something made locally. Profit over People. Not to mention the shitty working conditions Chinese laborers.

And not to get into the political side of it, but wouldn't you rather have newschoolers occupying jobs in the ski industry than Chinese people who don't even know what skiing is? It's not like the American economy is doing great, and us ski bums would love to have a job in the industry.

Charlie*Than why are so many companies making skis (and everything else) in China? You know JLEV, how much did it cost to make a pair of Chinese skis? 10 or 20 bucks? If that? Than resold to the consumer at a massive mark up. Lets be real, thats the real reason skis are made there, not because they are equally good to something made locally. Profit over People. Not to mention the shitty working conditions Chinese laborers.

And not to get into the political side of it, but wouldn't you rather have newschoolers occupying jobs in the ski industry than Chinese people who don't even know what skiing is? It's not like the American economy is doing great, and us ski bums would love to have a job in the industry.

It costs way more than 20 bucks to make a ski in china.

Also, having skis made in China isn't taking ski industry jobs away from NS'rs. Very few people actually want to work in ski assembly. All the design, marketing, product dev, and engineering jobs are in America.

cultraraIt costs way more than 20 bucks to make a ski in china.

Also, having skis made in China isn't taking ski industry jobs away from NS'rs. Very few people actually want to work in ski assembly. All the design, marketing, product dev, and engineering jobs are in America.

How much do you think it costs than? I'd be interested in seeing actual (official numbers.) All I know is that the American dollar goes way further there (which is why everyones making there shit there.) I've worked in logistics/retail and often seeing wholesale costs, its staggering.

Dunno about you, but I think any college student would rather build skis than serve burgers. No they aren't top tier pay grade jobs, but you have to start somewhere. I'd give a nut even to intern for a ski company if it meant a hopeful future in the business.

The referenced post has been removed.

Mmm good point. Way to contribute to the conversation.

To each his own. If China shit makes you happy I'm all for it.

It doesn't so much depend on where things are built, but skill and material definitely comes into play. Those guys chugging out K2's in China are definitely good at what they do... Don't fault them, if anything, fault the materials or the design if you haven't been too impressed with a ski, rather than the folks who slap these things together.

Hell, Movement skis builds in fucking Africa... and their product is way better than say, that dude who was building "333" skis in Mammoth a few years back that had a core made of plywood..

I wonder what the people of Vashon Island think of K2 going to China? Does anybody know what happened to the old K2 factory there?

There is a tie in with where something is manufactured and economy, environment and social responsibility. It is irresponsible as someone who loves skiing to ignore the environmental consequences of the manufacturing proccesses and supply chain in countries like china who continue to contribute enormously to climate change and it's negative effects on this thing we all love so dearly, winter. It's shooting ourselves in the foot. And this goes beyond just ski manufacturing but a pair of skis made responsibly by a US/Canadian company speaks loudly to others on the hill and in the lift lines about our values and can challenge them to rethink their own purchases.

@ Vashon Island--- For a while a large Ganja growing and THC candy operation was going buy the K2 factory. But, locals put out too many hoops for the cannabis company to jump through and they backed out of the sale. As far as I know it is still vacant.

Any Washington state peeps know any more news on K2 Vashon?

--- Also... the video link above and here goes to the video "Mt. Sopris/ SIA" Trevor Leaf of ON3P talks about his line and there is a brief peak at the Icelantic art work on their skis. Check it out.

https://www.newschoolers.com/watch/743372.0/Postscards-from-Beyond-the-Last-Snow?c=11

Folsom Custom Skis

Fatypus is made in the US (colorado to be exact) and the build quality is excellent. Much better than other skis I've owned that come out of china/taiwan.

Not a single mention of DPS tssk tssk, where are all the shitty bindings that you ride daily made? This thread

1dreadI wonder what the people of Vashon Island think of K2 going to China? Does anybody know what happened to the old K2 factory there?

When they shut down the Vashon Is. factory, there was a bit of uproar about it.. Not just in Washington, but all over. I remember when it happened... basically the company that owned K2, sold off it's other assets, changed its name to K2 sports, and abandoned Vashon Island...

But the skis themselves are usually pretty good from K2 and Line... it's the outsourcing that made people upset.

LutsenwreckThere is a tie in with where something is manufactured and economy, environment and social responsibility. It is irresponsible as someone who loves skiing to ignore the environmental consequences of the manufacturing proccesses and supply chain in countries like china who continue to contribute enormously to climate change and it's negative effects on this thing we all love so dearly, winter. It's shooting ourselves in the foot. And this goes beyond just ski manufacturing but a pair of skis made responsibly by a US/Canadian company speaks loudly to others on the hill and in the lift lines about our values and can challenge them to rethink their own purchases.

I agree with Lutsenwreck ... I think that the ski companies that are manufacturing in China should push for cleaner and greener processes there and improved work conditions. If they did that and made it known that they are pushing China's Manufactures to green up then I would see it as a positive step. But... The American/ Canadian Manufacturers are working for less toxic epoxies, natural dyes and a more sustainable process. Both JLev and iggyskier weighed in on the local economic benefits (for N. Ams) of manufacturing in N. America. Personally, I am impressed with the steps North American board manufacturers are making.

So, We know that the Euros build good skis. Does anybody want to weigh in on their efforts to green up the process?

Vashon is a sleepy island that is very rural compared to the rest of the seattle-tacoma-olympia urban sprawl. I'm sure running a large production factory there was completely unsustainable just based on being tied to washington state ferries.

Fatypus in neversummer also I believe.

This is very interesting, lots to think about when purchasing a product

iggyskierDon't think too hard. Most people don't make their own skis, and even fewer do so in North America.

Liberty is made in China.

RMU is made in Denver (Never Summer) and Quebec (Utopie).

Never Summer is also building Icelantic, Fatypus, and High Society.

Utopie is also building Jskis, HG, and Stanston.

Goes for Europe, too, where you see Faction, Apo, Amplid, Majesty, White Dot, and so on all be made by large factories over there.

There is a huge difference in my mind between companies building their own product and those paying to have someone else build their product (in both North America and Europe). That isn't to say that these companies outsourcing production build bad skis - just that the job they do and the one done by those who build their own product is vastly different. I consider ON3P a manufacturing company. We compete with a bunch of design and marketing companies.

There are TONS of small builders building in North America right now (say anywhere from 50-750 skis per year). But if you are looking for real factories running production volumes (say, at a minimum, 50 pairs/week) in the North America building their own product? Only ones I can think of are ON3P, Moment, Praxis, Ramp, DPS (Pure skis only) and Mervin (and most of Mervin's production is snowboards). Pretty small group when you get down to it.

Also, should be stated that there are good skis being build in North America, China, and Europe, just as there are bad skis being build in North America, China, and Europe. For me, I have a lot of respect for companies who build their own products because I know just how much work goes into producing skis. That's just me though...

this shit is on point. fuck yea never been so stoked on a good post. People have to realize this shit.

to answer the questions of ski cost to make a lower cost ski or lower cost pair of underwear it's all the same, doesn't matter what product, lower Labor cost &/or high volume = the only things that can bring down cost:

CHINA any size factory = $90 - $120 USD

EUROPE big ski company factory building 100,000+ pair year = $140-$170 USD

NORTH AMERICA small company (there is no big factories) = $200-$230

There are very very very few of you that would ever work in a factory of any kind because you would need to show up every day 40 hrs a week for 20 years getting paid minimum wage, that's why there are so few manufacturing jobs in North America, same for any product made. Drop out of college and start doing the same repetitive task for the rest of your life 40 hrs a week and then we'll have manufacturing where we live again.

StumpaSo, We know that the Euros build good skis. Does anybody want to weigh in on their efforts to green up the process?

I always thought this should be a focus for POW! We are putting so much attention towards greening up our resorts and our footprint on snow, but it's not exactly environmentally sound to be sliding around on layers of plastics and glasses and epoxies

JLevDrop out of college and start doing the same repetitive task for the rest of your life 40 hrs a week and then we'll have manufacturing where we live again.

Ha ha ... Okay Jason, point taken. So, does that mean your looking to start manufacturing in China? Or are you truthfully fucking proud to be designing / building great skis in USA and Canada!!! Also... J skis is making contributions to Environment Foundations like Climate Reality Project.

I'm hoping all the smaller companies can influence the big guys to start exploring greener ski / board technologies.

StumpaI agree with Lutsenwreck ... I think that the ski companies that are manufacturing in China should push for cleaner and greener processes there and improved work conditions. If they did that and made it known that they are pushing China's Manufactures to green up then I would see it as a positive step. But... The American/ Canadian Manufacturers are working for less toxic epoxies, natural dyes and a more sustainable process. Both JLev and iggyskier weighed in on the local economic benefits (for N. Ams) of manufacturing in N. America. Personally, I am impressed with the steps North American board manufacturers are making.

So, We know that the Euros build good skis. Does anybody want to weigh in on their efforts to green up the process?

That's a big reason why chinese production is so cheap in the first place. There is little to no environmental sustainability in chinese business practices and therefore little to no cost incurred on those fronts. It's the reason why there's no clean drinking water in china and little wildlife either

I think location matters a lot less than if a ski is being made by a snowboard company.

StumpaSo, We know that the Euros build good skis. Does anybody want to weigh in on their efforts to green up the process?

The Atomic ski factory in Altenmarkt, Austria has one of the most environmentally friendly ski factories in the world (Austria has mega strict environmental protection laws that tend to dwarf anything in the US). One of the fun facts about the factory is that we use a natural wood-pellet heating system (rather than gas or oil or electricity driven) during our manufacturing process. Plus, all excess heat & energy that is created goes directly into the town of Altenmarkt's supply.

We've also tried to produce the world's most carbon-emission-friendly products, with our RENU line- skis and boots that were made as much as possible from recycled and sustainable resources, soy based inks (or no inks if a soy version was not available), etc. These were perhaps too far ahead of their time and they didn't sell very well.

where are K2 skis made? cause I vote for wherever that is, those skis can take a beating

DingoSeanthat dude who was building "333" skis in Mammoth a few years back that had a core made of plywood..

He still is using plywood, but sadly no more chainsaw core profiling he upgraded to a bandsaw.

http://www.communityskis.com

GYPSYSLAYERVashon is a sleepy island that is very rural compared to the rest of the seattle-tacoma-olympia urban sprawl. I'm sure running a large production factory there was completely unsustainable just based on being tied to washington state ferries.

Fatypus in neversummer also I believe.

This is very interesting, lots to think about when purchasing a product

Lib tech is out in Sequim in the Olympic Penn, and the closest ski area besides the rope tows of hurricane ridge is Baker or Stevens, both ferry rides and hours away. They still make it work.

By riding for a company that builds skis 1 hour from mount hood, we are able to have a direct line of instant feedback on our product and our materials. This past summer, I wanted to make a slight modification to my pro model ski, and 2 days later I was test-riding the new product. There's obviously no way that would be possible if the ski was being made in China, or even Europe for that matter.

JLevThanks Stumpa. Simple answer, the location of your factory has nothing to do with making a good or bad ski. It's not dependent on climate, like growing grapes to make wine. Location only matters if you want your purchase to help support jobs in a specific region of the world, then buy product made there. Otherwise, the ski's engineered shape, construction, materials, manufacturing process & quality control is what actually makes a ski really good or really bad. If any one of those ingredients is bad, you'll have a bad ski. Some of the best and worst skis in the world are built only miles apart from each other. There are lots of bad skis made in China, but Volkle and DPS are considered high quality skis, and they build skis in China. . . in addition to their own in-house factories in Germany & US. The only way to know if a ski is good or bad is to ride it!

"manufacturing process & quality control is what actually makes a ski really good or really bad" This right here.

I work with Malaysia and Singapore a ton for work. Mostly producing parts and then production of assemblies from those parts. It is all about getting the process and quality control down. Once you give those guys a detailed process, they rip that shit out so fast with exceptional quality. Meanwhile, I work with one of the biggest plastic/molding manufacturers in the US, less than an hour from my office, who continually has quality issues. Location of manufacturing has zero to do with end product quality.

iggyskierBut if you are looking for real factories running production volumes (say, at a minimum, 50 pairs/week) in the North America building their own product? Only ones I can think of are ON3P, Moment, Praxis, Ramp, DPS (Pure skis only) and Mervin (and most of Mervin's production is snowboards).

I was thinking On3p, Moment, and Praxis as well; I can't imagine the others are pumping out enough pairs per year to really qualify. Even Praxis is sort of borderline.

Haven't seen anyone mention 4frnts whiteroom. Anyone know how many skis they're putting out of SLC?

onenerdykidThe Atomic ski factory in Altenmarkt, Austria has one of the most environmentally friendly ski factories in the world (Austria has mega strict environmental protection laws that tend to dwarf anything in the US). One of the fun facts about the factory is that we use a natural wood-pellet heating system (rather than gas or oil or electricity driven) during our manufacturing process. Plus, all excess heat & energy that is created goes directly into the town of Altenmarkt's supply.

We've also tried to produce the world's most carbon-emission-friendly products, with our RENU line- skis and boots that were made as much as possible from recycled and sustainable resources, soy based inks (or no inks if a soy version was not available), etc. These were perhaps too far ahead of their time and they didn't sell very well.

Atomic is our shops main brand along side Moment and Nordica and their commitment to environmental stewardship is a major reason we stick with them. And shucks I still have a Renu Tracker 110 boot

I didn't know about the Atomic Factory and their environmental measures. Very cool.

Skiing is always fighting the "elitist" sport tag. I definitely understand why some brands choose to manufacture in China for lower prices for consumers. We need some low price options for people who want to get into the sport and not go broke doing it. But, the environmental downside to manufacturing in China is an obvious concern among many of us. I would love to see the ski brands put pressure on any manufacturer who is not "greening" their process. I think that the upper line skis and skiers would gladly pay a little more if it meant moving forward to preserve cold winters and future winter.

LutsenwreckAtomic is our shops main brand along side Moment and Nordica and their commitment to environmental stewardship is a major reason we stick with them. And shucks I still have a Renu Tracker 110 boot

StumpaI didn't know about the Atomic Factory and their environmental measures. Very cool.

Thanks guys! I would that if one of the world's largest ski factories can take great steps in protecting the environment, then it's for sure possible with other brands as well (perhaps some already are?).

The special range of RENU products were first and foremost designed to limit their carbon footprint, carbon emissions, and use as many sustainable/recyclable resources as possible. This meant that aesthetics sort of took a backseat to our environmental goals, which we got criticized for because people said the products looked "weird". Noble effort, but not a commercial success unfortunately.

Here are some of the skis and boots.

Nomad RENU:

Tracker 110 RENU:

embed fail on the boots. sorrynotsorry.

To this day, they were Jossi's favorite pair of boots we ever gave him. Hopefully some day we can bring them back!

J.D.I was thinking On3p, Moment, and Praxis as well; I can't imagine the others are pumping out enough pairs per year to really qualify. Even Praxis is sort of borderline.

i'd bet tween h20, worth and others Keith presses for he made more skis last year than iggy

moment made a few to many judging by the evo prices

Vice is making deans skis now in slc

the kitten factory bros have a sweet spread downtown and mae awesome skis

the wubanger cats crank out some sweet skis outta garage in broburbia compton wood heights.

hopin to make it out to check out the dps factory soon

crazy_karlBy riding for a company that builds skis 1 hour from mount hood, we are able to have a direct line of instant feedback on our product and our materials. This past summer, I wanted to make a slight modification to my pro model ski, and 2 days later I was test-riding the new product. There's obviously no way that would be possible if the ski was being made in China, or even Europe for that matter.

I think you would be very surprised how this can easily be done with a factory in China or Europe. Air shipping is crazy fast these days.

I find the poll numbers interesting right now.

Pro China made skis:

If you combine the Good and Great numbers, it is 50% of the total poll numbers.

Only 3 of the 4 options are for Made in China ski owners. More owners are saying the skis suck, then are saying that they are great.

If you combine the "They Suck" people with the people who would never even buy China skis, that is currently 49%...

Interesting.

PS. This is at 150 surveyed. I would love to see a survey of 1000 or more China ski buyers.