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Netherlands Closing 19 Prisons Due to Lack of Criminals
zzzskizzzBecause someone who smokes weed and someone who gets into a fight at a bar, and someone who kills 10 people are very different dangers to society.
las.No, it doesn't. Why can the same standard not be applied equally across the board?
If you want to pay higher taxes so that a murderer who killed your mom can play x-box in prison, go for it. Seriously, if you fail to see the distinction between violent and non-violent criminals, you're not worth my time.
There have been a lot of success stories about Scandinavian countries in general recently. We all have similar issues, but clearly their method of dealing with those issues works far better. Note that, overall, their political culture is far less polarized and more open to compromise--creating solutions that better the population as a whole seems to be an actual goal of their governments. The fact that our states have individual political freedoms vs. federal law can also be limiting in some instances as well.
What I wanna know is can their policies be scaled up to populations that are 20x greater and spread across much larger land areas? Seems plausible, but because of the many many different cultural backgrounds it is hard to apply that across the board; mostly because some americans are so ignorant to change they won't accept anything new, even if it's been proven effective in practice elsewhere.
Sadly, while there are tons of well meaning intelligent people in our government, there are numerous factors of influence that often take the rationality out of their policy-making.
las.No, it doesn't. Why can the same standard not be applied equally across the board?
yea! Driving offenses, minor drug crimes, petty theft, robbery, arson and homicide are all equally severe crimes and should be punished exactly the same way
fujaromeyea! Driving offenses, minor drug crimes, petty theft, robbery, arson and homicide are all equally severe crimes and should be punished exactly the same way
Did I say they were equal offences? You're a smart guy, you know what I meant. Don't twist the story to cause conflict
horrible attempt at putting down North American countries... last 24 hours on NS is full of pretentious Europeans attempting to generalize from across the pond.
i think i understand why they are closing 19 prisons. keeping a prison like that up and running probably costs an arm and a leg. buh-buh-buh-budget cuts. just an assumption.
That's simply because the Dutch punishment for an armed robbery is several hours of cleaning rubbish on the side of the road.
Also this is the inside of a Dutch prison cell, picture is a few years old, but yes that's a computer, there usually also always a game console, fridge and microwave.
And this is the commons room, again a bit of an old picture of an old non refurbished prison:
I have a theory why Sandinavian countries seem to have better social dynamics than other countries in europe and North America.
In scandinavia almost everyone is the same. Same ethnicity, smae religon, same income, same looking. In other countries the diversity is much more prevalent in every aspect. This is a generalization, i know, but it is for the most part true.
When everyone is on the same page- same values, same culture, same traditions etc you feel a connection to them and tend to lean toward supporting the greater good...which is in reality whats best for you individually. When there is masive diversity you dont have that familial feeling towards your fellow citizens and so you choose to act in your own best interest instead of the greater good.
The other issue at play is the population difference between countries. the netherlands has 50% the population of California. Social dynamics become very different with a larger population. Now add in the diversity factor. It becomes very difficult to compare the two because of how totally different the two societies are.
Its frustrating when a country like denmark, acts like that snobby kid from a rich community telling a kid from NYC that all of NYCs problems could be solved if they just had laws and rules like that of the kids own gated community. Its just not comparable, and the fact that you think it is, shows your ignorance of what is going on in this world.
californiagrownI have a theory why Sandinavian countries seem to have better social dynamics than other countries in europe and North America.
In scandinavia almost everyone is the same. Same ethnicity, smae religon, same income, same looking. In other countries the diversity is much more prevalent in every aspect. This is a generalization, i know, but it is for the most part true.
When everyone is on the same page- same values, same culture, same traditions etc you feel a connection to them and tend to lean toward supporting the greater good...which is in reality whats best for you individually. When there is masive diversity you dont have that familial feeling towards your fellow citizens and so you choose to act in your own best interest instead of the greater good.
The other issue at play is the population difference between countries. the netherlands has 50% the population of California. Social dynamics become very different with a larger population. Now add in the diversity factor. It becomes very difficult to compare the two because of how totally different the two societies are.
Its frustrating when a country like denmark, acts like that snobby kid from a rich community telling a kid from NYC that all of NYCs problems could be solved if they just had laws and rules like that of the kids own gated community. Its just not comparable, and the fact that you think it is, shows your ignorance of what is going on in this world.
yeah, so the same stuff wont work, but the general mindset adapted for your situation could very well work.
comon, in the US, 0.7% of the population is in prison. the ratio is at least 5 times better for the worst european countries (that also have "diversity problems") and goes up to being 10-20 times better for the best european countries. your argument is also invalid in regard to US states being relatively independent and in size definitely comparable to countries in europe where the system works a lot better. the netherlands, mentioned in this article, actually have a high percentage of inhabitants which werent born there, 11%, with over 20% not being of dutch ethnicity overall, further diminishing your argument.
the US justice system is fucked, but not beyond repair. however you are acting as if there is no other way to solve this issue and that the US are so special in their socio-economic structure that the current situation is the best attainable one. this is just hindering progress in any direction.
"soft justice" might look more expensive, but the reduction in prison personal and inmates is definitely worth it. go look up the list with the highest incarceration rate per country and tell me you see the US on par with the #2, #3 or even #20 ranked country. they are all third-world (at best emerging) countries that people like you would call "shitholes".
louie.miragshorrible attempt at putting down North American countries... last 24 hours on NS is full of pretentious Europeans attempting to generalize from across the pond.
seriously? thats your answer? what positive is to say about the US prison system (canada isnt doing that bad imo). its not even the point of the article.
if this defensive attitude is all you can bring up for such a discussion, youre simply not relevant for it.
countries within europe try to emulate working models in education, justice or economy from other countries rather than act like "our system is the best, talking about how well others do is mitigating our success".
Astompi think i understand why they are closing 19 prisons. keeping a prison like that up and running probably costs an arm and a leg. buh-buh-buh-budget cuts. just an assumption.
given the recidivism rates, the whole system is a lot cheaper. yes, judges are softer as well and wont put anybody into prison, but if you throw some stupid guy into prison, even just for a few years, chances are pretty high that he will become a total fuckup.
feihlinationyeah, so the same stuff wont work, but the general mindset adapted for your situation could very well work.
comon, in the US, 0.7% of the population is in prison. the ratio is at least 5 times better for the worst european countries (that also have "diversity problems") and goes up to being 10-20 times better for the best european countries. your argument is also invalid in regard to US states being relatively independent and in size definitely comparable to countries in europe where the system works a lot better. the netherlands, mentioned in this article, actually have a high percentage of inhabitants which werent born there, 11%, with over 20% not being of dutch ethnicity overall, further diminishing your argument.
the US justice system is fucked, but not beyond repair. however you are acting as if there is no other way to solve this issue and that the US are so special in their socio-economic structure that the current situation is the best attainable one. this is just hindering progress in any direction.
"soft justice" might look more expensive, but the reduction in prison personal and inmates is definitely worth it. go look up the list with the highest incarceration rate per country and tell me you see the US on par with the #2, #3 or even #20 ranked country. they are all third-world (at best emerging) countries that people like you would call "shitholes".
Diversity problems. Lets start there. What percentage of Americans are american? 1.7%. One-point-seven-percent. The rest of the country is a motley assortment of immigrants from all over the world. where in europe is it similar? there is no common culture here. It is a melting pot of cultures, ideologies, and traditions. there is no common geneology or ethnicity whatsoever. Do you realize this? America is an immigrant country. What country in europe is that also true?
I agree that our justtice system needs work. But i dont think the nethelands model is applicable here. Correct me if im worng, i very well could be idk, but i dont think that the netherlands has an ingrained criminal culture for mor than 20% of its population. For over 20% of the US population there are two choices to making it out of poverty: entertainment/sports or criminal. Im sure that there are gangs over there, but i dont believe the crime from poverty and poverty from crime model is at all similar.
curiously, for what crimes are people not jailed and instead allowed to be electronically monitored? What do they do for work during the time they are monitored? what if they had no job, no educattion, and lived in the ghetto where crime is a way of life? How does the netherlands keep those people from just continuing on with the life they were living before?
One of the questions i always ask someone when they are trying to sell me is "what is the biggest downside to your product?" if they can answer with a coherent, honest and well thought out response, then i know they arent some one sided simpleton who doesnt actually know about my situation, and therfore doesnt actually know if their product is right for me. If the can give a good answer they are an informed analyst who can actually provide me useful information that can usually be trusted.
So i ask this: what are some systematic reasons, other than population, why the model used in the netherlands wouldnt work well for the USA? what tweaks do you think would need to be made?
californiagrownDiversity problems. Lets start there. What percentage of Americans are american? 1.7%. One-point-seven-percent. The rest of the country is a motley assortment of immigrants from all over the world. where in europe is it similar? there is no common culture here. It is a melting pot of cultures, ideologies, and traditions. there is no common geneology or ethnicity whatsoever. Do you realize this? America is an immigrant country. What country in europe is that also true?
I agree that our justtice system needs work. But i dont think the nethelands model is applicable here. Correct me if im worng, i very well could be idk, but i dont think that the netherlands has an ingrained criminal culture for mor than 20% of its population. For over 20% of the US population there are two choices to making it out of poverty: entertainment/sports or criminal. Im sure that there are gangs over there, but i dont believe the crime from poverty and poverty from crime model is at all similar.
curiously, for what crimes are people not jailed and instead allowed to be electronically monitored? What do they do for work during the time they are monitored? what if they had no job, no educattion, and lived in the ghetto where crime is a way of life? How does the netherlands keep those people from just continuing on with the life they were living before?
obviously the US is more diverse from a ethnical standpoint. who knows how though much it trickles down to actual cultural difference and having a feeling of being disconnected with the majority of your fellow citizens? hard to measure.
on your second point, i think i simply go the correlation/causation reversing route. i think that having such a repressive and strict justice system CAUSES (among other factors) gangs and the social structures you just mentioned, not the other way around. obviously you cannot improve such deep underlying structures in a heartbeat, but the situation stays unsatisfactory or even degrades slowly as long as the current system stays in place.
to me, its like gun laws (dont really want to start a discussion on that). OBVIOUSLY, there will be growing pains when you go to a more humane system. some fuckheade will abuse the system, repeatedly. but on average, less fuckheads will commit crimes every year, until criminalism/gangs arent even viewed as a solution.
regarding the electronic chain thing, i am fairly certain that only "minor"/one-time offenders get that privilege, ones with intact social structures around them, although i cannot speak for the netherlands. so, in a way, you simply wouldnt let such a guy out.
californiagrownOne of the questions i always ask someone when they are trying to sell me is "what is the biggest downside to your product?" if they can answer with a coherent, honest and well thought out response, then i know they arent some one sided simpleton who doesnt actually know about my situation, and therfore doesnt actually know if their product is right for me. If the can give a good answer they are an informed analyst who can actually provide me useful information that can usually be trusted.
So i ask this: what are some systematic reasons, other than population, why the model used in the netherlands wouldnt work well for the USA? what tweaks do you think would need to be made?
so i am all of a sudden supposed to be a justice system expert? i simply research some stats. there is nothing "expert" about it.
however, in my unqualified opinion, i would say that the US need to work with "minor offenders" far more to avoid turning them into complete fuckups, which is not unlikely in prison.
so
1) transform "minor" crimes (financial things, less severe drug problems, etc) into community work more frequently. maybe even in other communities to get them out of bad influences.
furthermore, at some point, the state could still try to educate people who are not having any kind of formal education in prison more frequently. you could also implement programs were inmates can work for regular companies, offering them a possibility to start over once they get out of prison. wages should be reasonably low though.
so
2) expand electronic chain systems to provide education and job training.
another thing which is very important would be to make prisons more humane. provide them with actual things to do rather thinking about committing more crimes. prisons shouldnt be these hardcore homosexual social hells they currently are. short-term costs should be amortisied by the fact that the whole prison system will shrink.
so
3) improve prison life.
all these are targeting rehabilitation. this is one of the main functions of the justice system. i mean, you could, extreme case, kill all criminals or lock them up in a single cell. this would protect society the best. but i am thinking, what about those guys coming out of prisons, those who arent serving life sentences? do you provide them with a chance to improve their lifes and become better persons?
i have literally 0 doubt that the justice system in the US would improve long-term with those measures used more often. obviously, some rapist will come out too early and rape once again. but single cases arent defining the whole system.
it depends on what you think is public protection and how the justice system and the prison system fit into the picture.
omnidataAlso this is the inside of a Dutch prison cell, picture is a few years old, but yes that's a computer, there usually also always a game console, fridge and microwave.
The couple of prisons I've visited never had a console or computer. Just a TV, maybe some books. My dad is a forensic doctor so he sometimes visits prisons to look at inmates who claim to have health problems. Sometimes I tag along as a 'student'.
feihlinationobviously the US is more diverse from a ethnical standpoint. who knows how though much it trickles down to actual cultural difference and having a feeling of being disconnected with the majority of your fellow citizens? hard to measure.
on your second point, i think i simply go the correlation/causation reversing route. i think that having such a repressive and strict justice system CAUSES (among other factors) gangs and the social structures you just mentioned, not the other way around. obviously you cannot improve such deep underlying structures in a heartbeat, but the situation stays unsatisfactory or even degrades slowly as long as the current system stays in place.
to me, its like gun laws (dont really want to start a discussion on that). OBVIOUSLY, there will be growing pains when you go to a more humane system. some fuckheade will abuse the system, repeatedly. but on average, less fuckheads will commit crimes every year, until criminalism/gangs arent even viewed as a solution.
regarding the electronic chain thing, i am fairly certain that only "minor"/one-time offenders get that privilege, ones with intact social structures around them, although i cannot speak for the netherlands. so, in a way, you simply wouldnt let such a guy out.
Regarding your last paragraph- The justice system already has that in place. If a first time offender of a minor crime has a stable life, and pleads guilty they are almost always put on probabtion with a suspended sentence and a couple hundred hours of community service. that is already the norm here.
Im just curious as to what the criteria is for "probation" in the netherlands vs "probation" in the US. They sound pretty similar, so why do you think it works over there, but not here?
omnidataThat's simply because the Dutch punishment for an armed robbery is several hours of cleaning rubbish on the side of the road.
Also this is the inside of a Dutch prison cell, picture is a few years old, but yes that's a computer, there usually also always a game console, fridge and microwave.
And this is the commons room, again a bit of an old picture of an old non refurbished prison:
As much as I would love to believe that U.S. prisoners could get rehabbed etc. in a plac e like this, we are talking about gangs of hardened killers in the U.S. prisons. you can't trust them with a pen without them using it as a shank.
TijmenDalThe couple of prisons I've visited never had a console or computer. Just a TV, maybe some books. My dad is a forensic doctor so he sometimes visits prisons to look at inmates who claim to have health problems. Sometimes I tag along as a 'student'.
It isn't standard but they can apparently rent the stuff. Also depends on prison.
Dude if we had prisons like that over hear i would totally just start committing crimes. "Oh no I robbed a bank. Shucks I guess its back to my private cell, delicious meals, and fun activities for a couple months"!
omnidataThat's simply because the Dutch punishment for an armed robbery is several hours of cleaning rubbish on the side of the road.
Also this is the inside of a Dutch prison cell, picture is a few years old, but yes that's a computer, there usually also always a game console, fridge and microwave.
And this is the commons room, again a bit of an old picture of an old non refurbished prison:
So their room is better than most college students?
Quit school, move there, get arrested, live the good life. Almost a win win actually. If you rob some place and get away with it you make some loot. Worst case you get caught and live rent free for a few years.
theabortionatorSo their room is better than most college students?
Quit school, move there, get arrested, live the good life. Almost a win win actually. If you rob some place and get away with it you make some loot. Worst case you get caught and live rent free for a few years.
logical failure is logical.
why are these countries having prison inmate ratios 8-20 times better than the US if what you say is true?
feihlinationseriously? thats your answer? what positive is to say about the US prison system (canada isnt doing that bad imo). its not even the point of the article.
if this defensive attitude is all you can bring up for such a discussion, youre simply not relevant for it.
countries within europe try to emulate working models in education, justice or economy from other countries rather than act like "our system is the best, talking about how well others do is mitigating our success".
Get real man. I work for a police department and see first hand what goes on. My point was that he said it's because of less crime, but gets called out because it's due to budget cuts. So yeah lame attempt at insulting Americans. We have plenty of budget problems like the rest of the world. I can type essays about how jacked our prison system is.
louie.miragsGet real man. I work for a police department and see first hand what goes on. My point was that he said it's because of less crime, but gets called out because it's due to budget cuts. So yeah lame attempt at insulting Americans. We have plenty of budget problems like the rest of the world. I can type essays about how jacked our prison system is.
"insult". comon, thats certainly a little far fetched.
obviously its budget cuts, but they also have a guard/inmate ratio of OVER 1 and therefore simply need as much prisons. obviously its a cost cutting move in some respect, but they can afford it from a public protection standpoint.
theabortionatorSo their room is better than most college students?
Quit school, move there, get arrested, live the good life. Almost a win win actually. If you rob some place and get away with it you make some loot. Worst case you get caught and live rent free for a few years.
I've had this mentality for street folk in Canada for a very long time. The way I see it, if you go and hold up some stores and get away with it, you get a bunch of money. If you get caught you get a roof over your head, you get fed every day, and you even make a bit of money while you're in there. Considering the other option is to potentially freeze to death in the winter and go hungry every day, it's a simple decision in my eyes.
That being said... my eyes (and brain) work differently, and I have a support network of friends/family so I wouldn't really end up in a position where I need to make the decision between going to jail or living on the streets.
there's so many countries advancing in so many ways these days, and here in north america we're just sitting around arguing about whether america is hell or not.
anyways, america is still a very young country. we don't expect teenagers to manage their finances, social lives, education, etc. in a responsible manner, so i'm choosing not to expect america does either (at least not for another 100 years or so).
the privileged will enjoy their youth, while it lasts.
feihlination"insult". comon, thats certainly a little far fetched.
obviously its budget cuts, but they also have a guard/inmate ratio of OVER 1 and therefore simply need as much prisons. obviously its a cost cutting move in some respect, but they can afford it from a public protection standpoint.
It is the pretentiousness of the OP and some of Europeans on this site. Saying "what a civilized nation that rationally approaches social problem can accomplish". That is a stab at other countries (example USA). Maybe I'm being vain, but who else what that aimed at? And OP may know jack shit about America and his opinion is based on bias media outlets. Saying America isn't "civilized"? Lame attempt... see what I mean?
louie.miragsIt is the pretentiousness of the OP and some of Europeans on this site. Saying "what a civilized nation that rationally approaches social problem can accomplish". That is a stab at other countries (example USA). Maybe I'm being vain, but who else what that aimed at? And OP may know jack shit about America and his opinion is based on bias media outlets. Saying America isn't "civilized"? Lame attempt... see what I mean?
It's not that he's saying America isn't civilized more so than America doesn't take a rational approach to certain social problems. The war on drugs and the amount of people in American jails for non violent drug 'crimes' is unacceptably high for any 'civilized' nation. It's not pretentious to say it as it is. Every country has their own issues and problems, nobody is perfect. Don't deny your faults when they are pointed out, or get defensive and act like they are in the wrong for pointing said faults out.
We as a species are always looking for someone/something to blame. It's immature and gets us nowhere. We need to 'man up' and realize our problems (even if there truly isn't anyone to blame) and actively try to fix them instead of distract ourselves with something else.
CamembertSorry to kill your thread, but there is no lack of criminals and thats not the reason they (want to) shut down prissons.
Its all because budget cuts.
They want to put more than one person in a cell (now you get a private cell) and give more criminals gps tracking anklets..
Why would they close down prisons full of inmates? Doesn't make much sense. And it's not like there's a mass of criminals just running around who aren't being incarcerated. Additionally, did you know there are now more prison guards in the Netherlands than inmates (as of March this year, 9,710 inmates remaining, compared to 9,914 guards)?
louie.miragsGet real man. I work for a police department and see first hand what goes on. My point was that he said it's because of less crime, but gets called out because it's due to budget cuts. So yeah lame attempt at insulting Americans. We have plenty of budget problems like the rest of the world. I can type essays about how jacked our prison system is.
This wasn't an attempt to make Americans look bad, you lot are fully capable of doing that on your own. Again, t'was a simple notion, one that I should probably expand on, which upset quite a few of you for some reason