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Basically like half the ski industry is hung in the balance of this whole deal. K2 is the largest action sports equipment manufacturer in the world. Shit's going to change if this goes down. Hopefully for the better (i.e. people buying from small ski companies more)...
buchanan.I grew up walking around ski shops looking for the newest k2 skis, watching k2 team videos and trying to ski my seth pistols like the man himself. If you cant figure out why you should show at least a scrap of respect for the brand and the people that have put time in there, you've got some homework to do. Start with this.
Haven't posted in several months and came back to see if anything has changed and if we're able to have logical adult conversations about important issues impacting freeskiing.
As shitty as it sounds, the suits at Newell are going to look at this from a completely monetary standpoint.
Guy 1: "Why do we have brands under the same parent company that compete with each other for market share?"
Guy 2: "I'm not sure, I don't know anything about skiing but that doesn't make sense."
Guy 1: "Alright, see you later Line and Full Tilt (and K2 OR Volkl). Okay, now that we've consolidated down to one ski brand, one boot brand, and one binding brand, simplified the structure and gotten rid of this fat, lets sell this bitch. I've got a tee time in an hour."
Guy 2: "Sick, I'm going to go home and count my money."
The same thing will happen with 5150, Morrow and Ride; two will get chopped and one will remain.
Marker is not going anywhere, I've heard numbers as high as them owning 40% of the binding market. Some German car company will probably buy them. As much as it absolutely breaks my heart, I don't see Line or Full Tilt making it out of this unless somebody who knows what's going on and what they mean to freeskiing swoops in and saves them, and I hope with all of my heart that happens. Which would be so fucking incredible because they own like 25% of the market of freestyle skis, someone could make great money off of them.
Our whole little corner of the ski industry is fucking crazy right now.
loganimlachAs shitty as it sounds, the suits at Newell are going to look at this from a completely monetary standpoint.
Guy 1: "Why do we have brands under the same parent company that compete with each other for market share?"
.
i dont know much at all about this specific situation, and yes, those dudes will look at the whole thing as a spreadsheet. but it's not unheard of and necessarily out of the question for bigger companies to own several smaller ones that compete with each other. sunglasses and cars come to mind as easy examples
Titsandwich11i dont know much at all about this specific situation, and yes, those dudes will look at the whole thing as a spreadsheet. but it's not unheard of and necessarily out of the question for bigger companies to own several smaller ones that compete with each other. sunglasses and cars come to mind as easy examples
That's completely true, and the reason that Jarden operated like it did for years, but when you're trying to sell something you try to make the books as simple as possible.
TraverseMediawhen can we expect to hear the outcome of this deal?
“Ideally I would like to sell these assets versus simply walk away from them,” Polk told investors at the conference last week in a presentation. “Some of them are the kinds of businesses that would be difficult to sell and therefore, we should just shut down because they create no value for you and they are a distraction for us. We are going to focus our energy against the big opportunities and we are going to minimize the distractions. We’re going to follow the money with respect to the choices we make and the actions we take.”
Polk said he would “rapidly exit” the companies that are not sellable, promising a new corporate model for Newell Brands by Jan. 1.
cultrara“Ideally I would like to sell these assets versus simply walk away from them,” Polk told investors at the conference last week in a presentation. “Some of them are the kinds of businesses that would be difficult to sell and therefore, we should just shut down because they create no value for you and they are a distraction for us. We are going to focus our energy against the big opportunities and we are going to minimize the distractions. We’re going to follow the money with respect to the choices we make and the actions we take.”
Polk said he would “rapidly exit” the companies that are not sellable, promising a new corporate model for Newell Brands by Jan. 1.
cultrara“Ideally I would like to sell these assets versus simply walk away from them,” Polk told investors at the conference last week in a presentation. “Some of them are the kinds of businesses that would be difficult to sell and therefore, we should just shut down because they create no value for you and they are a distraction for us. We are going to focus our energy against the big opportunities and we are going to minimize the distractions. We’re going to follow the money with respect to the choices we make and the actions we take.”
Polk said he would “rapidly exit” the companies that are not sellable, promising a new corporate model for Newell Brands by Jan. 1.
cultraraWe are going to focus our energy against the big opportunities and we are going to minimize the distractions.
Big venture capital firms with billions under management are limited by the amount of time that the partners have to oversee their investments, and vetting potential ones. They could easily heavily invest seed amount in tiny startups but there is way to much time and energy for the partners to put into it. Same thing at work here. All these mega-mergers mean that the top management just don't have the capacity or willingness to work with small change.
I read 1 out of 5 senior managers are said to be psychos (not saying anyone here is) but they'd just shut the companies down without batting an eyelid... even if they were skiers. If I were a ski company in the industry, I'd just contact Newell and submit an offer right now.
People will disagree with me but I think I might shit my pants if I cant get another pair of full tilts. If any of this actually happens I would freak out because whether these companies are good or not they don't harm skiing in any way.
parkplaygroundRacing is legit and any self-respecting skier can recognize that. I honestly wish I raced when I was young instead of strictly skiing moguls because I would love to slay everything like my friend who raced instead of skiing moguls and hes a legit better skier than I am because of it. I will say that racers can be some of the biggest tools I've ever met on the hill though so the bad rep is warranted.. atleast in the EC.
I did some racing when I was young, training as opposed to actually racing in events. I wish I had done more. I will say that some of the best guys out there are the ones who do both racing and bumps, with Shane McConkey being a great example.
I don't know whether they are big tools on the east coast. I would not really know as I am older than you guys and grew up before the park scene. If you have encountered some with attitude I will certainly take your word for it. That's really a shame. Racers that look down on park skiers are idiots, and vice versa.
Conventional racing sucks: it is stressful on the body and tiresome. There is also a lot of overhead to learn all the disciplines well. I think it has limited application at this point. I almost take pity of hardcore racers at this point, especially ones who think it is their ticket to heaven. A little bit in moderation perhaps, just as a novelty or to get you out of the park, and to realize how wholly unenjoyable it is. Skier-X on the other hand looks a bit more interesting..
I can see how racing is integral to skiing, and I think park skiing will end up that way too as people realize how dangerous it is, and how difficult it is to get to the top levels. BC skiing is also dangerous, and fat skis produce so much sluff, I am wondering if it is getting more dangerous as well.
I agree with some of what you said, just not the limited application comment. Racing is one of the best ways to build all-around skills, skills that translate very well into big mountain skiing. If you don't like it I get that but it translates much better to big mountain skiing than park skiing does. I'm not putting down park skiing, but if you don't have access to big mountain terrain the best way to get ready for it is to race or ski bumps. I'm not saying park skiing does not help, it teaches great coordination and body awareness, I just don't think it helps as much as racing/bumps. If you want a project, and I would never want this project, look back over the past 20 years of films of TGR/MSP. You will find that the vast majority of the guys who are flying around in helis in AK have a background in racing or bumps. If they don't, they usually grew up in the west. For the park guys who have transitioned to helis if you look into it you will usually find they have racing/bumps backgrounds or grew up in the west. I would not bother to undertake this exercise as you probably don't really care, I don't blame you, I'm just saying that racing has serious applications in other skiing disciplines, particularly big mountain. I would say that park skiing is obviously the way to go if you are more into going the urban route.
I hope I don't cause an east/west conflict, as that is not what my intent is. I am also not saying park skiers can't ski, as that is bullshit. I hope no one interprets my post that way as those subjects have been done to death here. I just think racing has applications in other forms of skiing.
As to not wanting to race due to overhead/wear on the body I don't blame you. You are certainly right on both aspects there.
If I have misinterpreted what you meant by applications I'm sorry about that.
dan4060As to not wanting to race due to overhead/wear on the body I don't blame you. You are certainly right on both aspects there.
No need to apologize. Thx for response.
Yes, still tons of love for racers around, and I grew up on bumps and bad snow in Australia. (Tanner and CT both also accomplished bumps skiers growing up - before parks existed.) Did they end up as racers? Why not?
But to learn slalom, GS, Super-G and Downhill all well and to comp standard - that's a lifetime effort there (and not be drawn into other aspects of skiing): that's what I meant by overhead.. so much work and effort... and for what? Racing is not an end in-and-of-itself.
But my main point is this, and it's important - if skiing wants new life, you need to give first-time skiers, especially the ones paying for it a great time. It's such an uphill battle, they have to learn a new skill, deal with the falls, the cold, the hunger, the people, the prices, the stress... and what are they going to aspire to once they've been at it for a few days? Most just want to survive.
If Line dies, where will whimmy tam tim sticks and Eric Pollard go? I'd be super upset if Pollard had to leave Line and had to go somewhere else that limits his ability to do what he currently does.
Not that I'm much of a business guy, but, doesn't line do decent business in the freestyle/twintip market. You wouldn't be buying just some company. It's Line, a company who everybody knows already. You wouldn't have to establish anything as all that's already been done. Seems like a good reason for somebody to scoop them up and cancel their own freestyle program which might not be so well know or have a large place in the market.
This is just an example, of course, but it'd be like if Elan or Fischer bought them. I don't think of either of those brands as newschool or whatever. If they bought line and canceled their own twintips/freestyle stuff I don't think a lot of people would notice Elan's park skis have gone missing. Maybe in europe. I have no idea. Just making shit up here.
DrZoidbergNot that I'm much of a business guy, but, doesn't line do decent business in the freestyle/twintip market. You wouldn't be buying just some company. It's Line, a company who everybody knows already. You wouldn't have to establish anything as all that's already been done. Seems like a good reason for somebody to scoop them up and cancel their own freestyle program which might not be so well know or have a large place in the market.
This is just an example, of course, but it'd be like if Elan or Fischer bought them. I don't think of either of those brands as newschool or whatever. If they bought line and canceled their own twintips/freestyle stuff I don't think a lot of people would notice Elan's park skis have gone missing. Maybe in europe. I have no idea. Just making shit up here.
Realistically, anyone who buys Line is probably only getting the trademarks and intellectual property. Not the manufacturing facility. So you would probably have zero established beyond a name.
SessionRealistically, anyone who buys Line is probably only getting the trademarks and intellectual property. Not the manufacturing facility. So you would probably have zero established beyond a name.
I could be completely wrong, but there was a thread on here a little bit ago and I think it said that K2/Line outsource? So if that's true wouldn't they be alright? Maybe not, I'm not actually sure haha.
solid.sevenI could be completely wrong, but there was a thread on here a little bit ago and I think it said that K2/Line outsource? So if that's true wouldn't they be alright? Maybe not, I'm not actually sure haha.
they own their own factory in china. volkl is also produced there
loganimlachthey own their own factory in china. volkl is also produced there
As for as their Chinese factory being an asset, though, it has to be a K2 Sports or Jarden asset, rather than one of K2 Skis/Line/Volkl (someone please correct me if that is wrong). It will be interesting to see how that factors into the sales discussions. Depreciation is a bitch and as an asset it might not be worth that much on a balance sheet.
buchanan.I grew up walking around ski shops looking for the newest k2 skis, watching k2 team videos and trying to ski my seth pistols like the man himself. If you cant figure out why you should show at least a scrap of respect for the brand and the people that have put time in there, you've got some homework to do. Start with this.
iggyskierAs for as their Chinese factory being an asset, though, it has to be a K2 Sports or Jarden asset, rather than one of K2 Skis/Line/Volkl (someone please correct me if that is wrong). It will be interesting to see how that factors into the sales discussions. Depreciation is a bitch and as an asset it might not be worth that much on a balance sheet.
I was also thinking it'd have to be with K2 or Jarden or whoever is the parent. I also have no idea though. Wonder how much it'd cost them to change a ski factory to some other type of factory, unless there's somebody in the market for a fully equipped ski factory. Nobody's gonna want it if they have to nuke it and rebuild.
Although with the rate of industrial accidents in China these that might be easier than it sounds.
iggyskierAs for as their Chinese factory being an asset, though, it has to be a K2 Sports or Jarden asset, rather than one of K2 Skis/Line/Volkl (someone please correct me if that is wrong). It will be interesting to see how that factors into the sales discussions. Depreciation is a bitch and as an asset it might not be worth that much on a balance sheet.
The factory in China is a K2 Sports asset. It houses the majority of K2 Sports' manufacturing including Tubbs Snowshoes, Atlas Snowshoes, K2 Inline Skate, Line, K2 Ski, Ride Snowboard, K2 Snowboard, some Volkl Ski, some Volkl Snowboard, 5150 Snowboard and I'm not 100% sure but I think Zoot Tri apparel.
All boot manufacturing takes place in Italy by Roxa, Dalbello, and whatever company is making K2 boots (it's not Roxa or Dalbello).
If any of the brands were to be sold off individually, the factory would not be included so the new owners would likely be forced to outsource to a new facility or pay K2 to continue manufacturing their product.
A world without LTC existing because of corporate agenda is a world which is a small bit worse. I hope this is simply commentary on this pressing issue. I literally can't imagine half of the Line team on any other brand, yourself included
Young_pattyLet's be real dude, Like Traveling Circus hasent really been around for the last couple of years,
that being said I can't imagine the ski community without Line or Full Tilt.
Just because they don't constantly put out mini episodes doesn't mean that they haven't been doing anything. Last fall, they dropped 3 mini movies, all of which were some of the best episodes they've ever made. Another one is dropping within this month I believe. I fully agree that Line and Full Tilt's absence would be a massive gap, but LTC is still as relevant as it ever was. Quality over quantity
Carved+DangerousNo need to apologize. Thx for response.
Yes, still tons of love for racers around, and I grew up on bumps and bad snow in Australia. (Tanner and CT both also accomplished bumps skiers growing up - before parks existed.) Did they end up as racers? Why not?
But to learn slalom, GS, Super-G and Downhill all well and to comp standard - that's a lifetime effort there (and not be drawn into other aspects of skiing): that's what I meant by overhead.. so much work and effort... and for what? Racing is not an end in-and-of-itself.
But my main point is this, and it's important - if skiing wants new life, you need to give first-time skiers, especially the ones paying for it a great time. It's such an uphill battle, they have to learn a new skill, deal with the falls, the cold, the hunger, the people, the prices, the stress... and what are they going to aspire to once they've been at it for a few days? Most just want to survive.
I agree with your points here. It takes an incredible expenditure to get anywhere in racing, and how many of the people who do that will get anything other than skills out of it? I think it's a shame when racers don't branch out, they are really missing out on what skiing is about.
I also agree about skiing and the battle it is fighting. I will go a step further : When Shane McConkey got on the scene he fought with companies to get sponsored. Snowboarding was killing skiing at that point using pros who were doing what other boarders were doing, just better. Most skiers can't relate to racers, they are just looking to find the hardest line on the mountain and skiing it as well as they can. I was always looking to ski the best stuff I could, still am, and I never cared how I did in a race. I was more focused on finding steeps and skiing them well. McConkey made the point that the original freeskiers, the big mountain guys, were doing what skiers on the mountain were aspiring to do, and that they would be better ambassadors than racers, and he was 100% percent right. The new breed of sponsored guys were doing what everyone else on the mountain was doing, and people could relate. Our skis got much better because of those guys, particularly Shane, and our days on the mountain are much better because of it.
Most skiers can't relate to racing. Thank god the companies have finally realized that they need to promote skiers other than racers in order to grow the sport. Like I said, I respect racing, and it is great for your skills, but there is more to skiing. And like you said, most people can't afford the expenditure and the time to get anywhere with it.
dan4060Most skiers can't relate to racers, they are just looking to find the hardest line on the mountain and skiing it as well as they can.
True. That's adrenaline-based skiing (not always, but most of the time.) I think park skiing will always be foreign, it's getting more attention with Olympics, but parks aren't a natural feature. So just as instructors take students into race courses, they'll need to take them into the park for it to become more mainstream, and proper coaching will be needed from ski schools. Otherwise skiers just won't know about them - not easily anyway.
With CT, I can see more "mountain as feature" type skiing, and going hard and big - but that takes a park-based background for the spins.
With H'carving [plug], I'm more about smashing people notions on how they should ski, and what they should be feeling, because it does feel good. But most people here already know about it.
loganimlachthey've been shopping K2 Sports around for about 6 months, this isn't new news
They completed the merger with Jarden Corp in April, 2016. how were they shopping around k2/sports prior to completing that? Do you have any news articles or press releases stating this?
Ask for a company expense card and spend it all on weed super quick before they realize what you're doing, take said weed, run to Alaska aboard a small fishing vessel, live rest of life in alaska then reappear sometime after 20 years have passed.
Honestly though, this sucks, I guess the good thing in all this is that the brands appear to just be "up for sale" versus them being just shut down and liquidated.
freeskibum82They completed the merger with Jarden Corp in April, 2016. how were they shopping around k2/sports prior to completing that? Do you have any news articles or press releases stating this?
nope just people talking. from what I heard they were shopping them around right after they acquired Jarden (about 6 months ago). My guess is that Newell bought Jarden for Mr. Coffee, Yankee, Coleman, etc. knowing that they were going to dump everything else from the get go.
