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GOD..

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Sgt.Hessu
Posts: 714 - Karma: 10
do you guys believe in god..i believe, but i think that Satan and God are both friends and they are just messing with our lives.. like satan tries to cause as much accidents and catastrophes as possible and god tries to repair the damages and prevent accidents.. They must have really good time!
P.E.K.K.A=Perverssi Erilaisia Kissaeläimiä Köyrivä Aloittelija
Jul 21 2002 2:11PM
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jibs
Posts: 2529 - Karma: 48
At least there's some evidence to support those theories, whereas the bible is all just relying on the word of a bunch of loners who had a little too much time on their hands.

This stupid argument has been done and done and overdone...it never goes anywhere and it never will. The soft cocks who can't accept life for what it is (a worthless struggle for survival...you know, like the lions, antelope, ants, fish...all just trying to live as long as they can so they can procreate as many times as possible before they die) can sit back and dream that there is actually something there for them after death. I mean...what does it hurt, they'll be dead...nothings there, they don't exist, so who cares. And meanwhile the rest of us will enjoy life, and live it to the fullest, even though there's no real point to it...once were dead anything we accomplish now, really doesn't matter.

c'est la vie. Live with it.
Jul 24 2002 12:44AM
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NoTeefa
Posts: 9566 - Karma: 129
jibs, you are probably the smartest person on this site.


Yea I want cheezy poofs
Jul 24 2002 3:16AM
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roswel
Posts: 427 - Karma: 11
the idea of religion is almost as old as man itself, and as a result it is a highly contested and heated issue. it is only through progress that we expand our ideas and understanding of the world around us as well as the religions we subscribe too. ironically it is the opposition to this very progress that may eventually cause the downfall of modern religion. the notion of science replacing religion has already been brought up here. science has given us increased knowledge of our universe and how it came to be, the beginnings of our planet, and how the spark of life was ignited on our tiny world. it cannot replace religion, nor should it be shunned by it either. although we know a great deal more facts today than 2000 years ago there is much that remains mystical. there are so many things we do not know and may never know. it is the beliefs of what we do not know that constructs ones faith, whatever form or religion it may take. there is no proof of one correct religion or that any of them have any shred of truth in them. this is why we must rely on faith. in fact if we had the answers one way or another religion would lose all it's power. does god exist? i don't know, and in all respect does it really matter?

i believe that organized religion defeats the purpose of faith altogether. everyone is entitled to believe what they choose. i find it demoralizing to have an individual representative dictate what is right or wrong or moral. it is not up to a higher being to rule us. we are one people of an amazing world. we govern ourselves in the best way....humanities way. we are not perfect, but that should not keep us from striving for perfection. religion or not, god or not, life after death or not, i'm gonna live my life the way that feels right to me through peace, love, and maybe a little skiing (ha).

i wish all of you the best of luck in your individual pursuits.



- I ain't never been to Seasame Street, but i can flip a Big Bird....BACOOOOOOCK!!! -
Jul 24 2002 8:57AM
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Ski_Instructor_Mike
Posts: 6146 - Karma: 72
well said. well said.


MD... Dain bramaged.
'I am now a moderator... and all I had to do was suck harveys cock! who would have guessed?' - Dave Pauls.
Jul 24 2002 1:24PM
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maxcox9
Posts: 254 - Karma: 10
shit. why would anybody believe a word that's said in a book that begins with a story about some god creating the fucking WORLD in seven fucking days?? that's just wack, sounds like a bedtime story for the 4- year olds, told along with stories about animals that can speak and shit. and hundreds of millions of people actually fucking believe in that shit. I mean, don't they have a fucking brain? Christianity is the biggest scam in the history of mankind.


~~Ride hard, you can rest when you die.~~

I like the beat and the size does matter
I like the bass when it's big and phatter
I'm on the floor and there's nothing better
I like the beat and the size does matter

Jul 26 2002 9:24AM
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mtw
Posts: 1241 - Karma: 30
'shit. why would anybody believe a word that's said in a book that begins with a story about some god creating the fucking WORLD in seven fucking days?? that's just wack, sounds like a bedtime story for the 4- year olds, told along with stories about animals that can speak and shit. and hundreds of millions of people actually fucking believe in that shit. I mean, don't they have a fucking brain? Christianity is the biggest scam in the history of mankind.'

You don't get it either. The beginning is not meant to be taken literally, as with other parts of the Bible.
Jul 26 2002 12:18PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Just to help those people out w/ the daunting question on how the world could have been made from nothing w/o some god... well mathematically, all the known matter added to the existing amount of binding gravity in the universe (gravity being a negative value) equals zero. Matter has been proven to pop out of the nothingness of vacuums in certain types of fluctuations and it grows according to an interesting exponential formula.

Religion is definitely the source behind at least half the evil in the world. Any no brainer even sees this when the word middle and east are put next to eachother. It's also contributed to europe being a more backwards society for a longer period. Part of empirialism in the 15 and 16th century was due to missionary work with the intent on conversion. All kinds of resentment has been produced from these different spheres of influence done centuries ago.

The church also fostered a lot of scientific activity from the 11th century on. Science used to be used by the church to better understand the workings of nature and God. This was also around the time of the crusades where the church fostered scientific development of weapons, and this continued all the way through the church's wars until the late 17th century. If you ever have any time read up on a man named Thomas Aquinas, you'll get a good laugh.
Jul 26 2002 2:47PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Oh yea, one more thing I forgot about. Religion has done one good thing for society and that is the way it has successfully encapsulated its message of morals. Society has basically been handed a guide of morals to live by. And whether you're religious or not, you probably have the same basic morals and will pass those on to your children (if you choose to have them)in some shape or form.
Jul 26 2002 2:56PM
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PowderPrincess
Posts: 2767 - Karma: 20
personally i disagree with this post. religion is made into such a big controversy and its not going to solve anything by us fighting over it on the internet. i can speak that yes, personally i believe in God and try to live my life accordingly, it goes along with mike's post that yes, most christians do stray away from the sinless life that Jesus had, but thats the beauty of forgivness in the christian religion. whatever your beliefs may be, thats fine, its how you think, but i just think theres more to life than not believing.
*brooke*


denise: brooke, i think you're a really really really skanky ho.
brooke:haha well i gotta win competitions some how, huh? cause we all know its not my skiing
denise: me neither. i like to ho around. wait wait... i ho down, instead of throw down.



Jul 26 2002 3:27PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Anyone else find it interesting how the Christian church locked up scientists because their factual findings went directly against and disproved the holy book. Shouldn't that be a lesson learned?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 26 2002 4:03PM
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mtw
Posts: 1241 - Karma: 30
'Anyone else find it interesting how the Christian church locked up scientists because their factual findings went directly against and disproved the holy book. Shouldn't that be a lesson learned?'

But no one has disproved the existance of a god. I know there are inaccuracies in the Bible; I learned of some from a history class I took. But that's only the history recorded by the followers and has nothing to do with God.
Jul 26 2002 4:26PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
It disproved ideas the church had drawn from the bible, which made the church feel very insecure, because of papal infallibility. Like when copernicus disproved Ptolemy's geocentric idea of the universe (That is that everything revolves around the earth). And when galileo adopted the geocentric theory and used it as a proponent in his teaching, the church ripped him a new one and put him on house arrest for the rest of his life.
Jul 26 2002 5:33PM
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Prins
Posts: 1283 - Karma: 49
again I'll say this has no point on this site because we aren't going to go anywhere with it. Reading the posts I understand where all of you are coming from with your views and what you said. People who have faith aren't any smarter or stupider then people without faith. I still do believe in God, I believe in the bible (you have to understand that some of the things are stories and not ment to be taken literaly).

And to the last guy who posted about the universe and the church. That was the Church making a mistake and not the bible or God. No where in the bible does it explain how the universe works, or evolution, or most other scientific things.

~paul
Jul 26 2002 9:54PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
You can't disprove a god because noone would listen anyways, but nor can you prove a god.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 26 2002 11:13PM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
does this debate need to come to a conclusion? i think its a facinating topic and a great way to see where people are coming from.





In the garden shed, behind a cobweb curtain, Witch Baby was playing her drums.
It was the drumming of flashing dinosaur rock gods and goddesses who sweat starlight, the drumming of tall, muscly witch doctors who can make animals dance, wounds heal, rain fall and flowers open. But it began in Witch Baby's head and heart and came out through her small body and hands...
Jul 26 2002 11:20PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Oh and believe me, this topic of diswcussion is better then the majority of other threads here right now.
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~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 26 2002 11:26PM
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freestyleskier14
Posts: 638 - Karma: 8
Well I belive in God and He has done great things for me...like saving me from cancer!

'Shampoo is beta!'
'NO! Conditioner is beta!'
'I go on first and clean the hair!'
'I leave the hair feeling smooth and silky!'
'O really fool?!'
'O really?!'
.....'STOP LOOKING AT ME SWAAAAN!!!!'
Jul 26 2002 11:42PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Did you recieve modern medical treatment? Such as chemotherapy, or other such similar treatments?

The only other way you can say it was god was that you did nothing more then pray. No doctors, no medical treatments. Nothing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 27 2002 12:17AM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
I'm not supporting religon, but it has been proven that people who are ill, and are prayed for heal faster than those who are not. i dont know where, ask diabhal. he told me about this.

its like positive afermations. get the vibe out there





In the garden shed, behind a cobweb curtain, Witch Baby was playing her drums.
It was the drumming of flashing dinosaur rock gods and goddesses who sweat starlight, the drumming of tall, muscly witch doctors who can make animals dance, wounds heal, rain fall and flowers open. But it began in Witch Baby's head and heart and came out through her small body and hands...
Jul 27 2002 1:10AM
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Prins
Posts: 1283 - Karma: 49
SkierX is not seeing the point. See if God is real (which I think he is) then he is the reason that those doctors were born, went to medical school, and that there hands were guided through the process. So yes for him, and I believe it as well, God saved him from cancer.

I as well credit Him with some stuff like that, I had some depression issues and He really helped me through them. You don't have to believe that but I truly with my whole heart and mind do.
Jul 27 2002 2:36AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
so you have found a way to attributing every single event in the complete universe to god? props to creativity there. I guess i'll never see what you are saying because i'm not religious and I believe we have a choice as to our futures.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 27 2002 3:48AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Quick afterthought too...

What your saying seems like a very hopeless life. What you said basically says that your whole life has been layed out for you by 'god' and your destined to be whatever anyways. yer basically saying you have no prsonal say in your life whatsoever.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 27 2002 3:51AM
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mtw
Posts: 1241 - Karma: 30
'What your saying seems like a very hopeless life. What you said basically says that your whole life has been layed out for you by 'god' and your destined to be whatever anyways. yer basically saying you have no prsonal say in your life whatsoever.'

Not all Christians believe that. I believe that God wants us to live as freely as possible, with as little intervention from him as possible. I think that will let us discover on our own what life is about. If God kept us from anything bad happening, we would take peace for granted, or something like that. You could also say that evolution doesn't go against Christianity because God left the universe to form on it's own, he just lit the fuse for the Big Bang.
Jul 27 2002 11:14AM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
didn't feel liek reading everyone's bull shit. i don't believe in god. i believe in myself, you're the only one who can make things happen for you or fuck things up for you. i've fucked many things up and done some good. my actions on this planet shouldn't effect what happens to me when i'm dead. this is because i will be dead, nothing more nothing less. i don't believe our 'spirits' go anywhere. however, its odd because i do believe in ghosts, from some freakish shit that's happened to me. but what if it were like this: you die and everything is just the same. except opposed to seeing living people, everyone was just dead. but how can you people fight about shit you'll never know until you get there. just drop it and enjoy your time.
yo yo i be representing the motha fuckin' littleton crew
so what the fuck you pussies gonna do?
created free-stylers.com for my town
go view our shit, we're holdin' it down
Jul 27 2002 11:41AM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
hum, i felt like i could say some more shit. yea my dad survived cancer too. he just got that shit cut off, haha. see jsut because something went right for you, why does it have to be some outside help. why can't everyone just simply look at it as shit went right for you. i mean, think what religion has allowed people to do in our society. if a person says he hears voices and stuff, he is usually thought of as crazy. now if the same person said he heard voice from god religious folk would look at him as blessed. it could just be the same crazy ass individual. i dunno, i just think of religion as a big tale that a ton of people started believing and it became the trendy thing to do. then people got all defensive and started killing people for that shit. however it's good churches and what not are around, they donate money and try to do good things for the community. it's nice because it's a positive influence on our lives. which is why i think governments have tolorated them. who knows, you could say anything you want about religion and it would sound smart. it's all opinions. the end.
yo yo i be representing the motha fuckin' littleton crew
so what the fuck you pussies gonna do?
created free-stylers.com for my town
go view our shit, we're holdin' it down
Jul 27 2002 11:52AM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
mtw, i think thats called
deisme (in french, i dont know the english word)

and has anybody heard of world youth day aside from this year?? man, that pope-mobile is pimpin'





In the garden shed, behind a cobweb curtain, Witch Baby was playing her drums.
It was the drumming of flashing dinosaur rock gods and goddesses who sweat starlight, the drumming of tall, muscly witch doctors who can make animals dance, wounds heal, rain fall and flowers open. But it began in Witch Baby's head and heart and came out through her small body and hands...
Jul 28 2002 5:29PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
OK, Who knows, maybe there is an outside force that acts upon us. Butorganzied religions are a crock as far as I see it. Guidelines for living is all they are. It's a controlling device created by a ruler. That is the intention of organized religion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 28 2002 5:53PM
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Prins
Posts: 1283 - Karma: 49
ya skierx about the stuff you wrote above. Where you talk about God knowing everything that you will do and have done. That doesn't mean that you have no self control. He just knows what your going to do. Makes sence to me. Just think of it as him always being a step ahead of you. Also He would never end war on earth, or hate, or anything like that because otherwise you would loose some appreciation for him and what he has and can do.

And for the guidelines to live by. I really think that is one thing that any religion does well. Some people are fucked up and do need guidelines to live by, and most of you do live by the same guidelines because you were probably brought up in a christian culture (basicly meaning you speak english) and that culture has impacted your life from the day you were born. I guess you could try ot break all the rules and go on some rampage/vigilanty raid.
~paul
Jul 28 2002 9:51PM
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Penguino1
Posts: 152 - Karma: 10
ULLR is all that i believe in


SHIBY
Jul 28 2002 9:57PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Yea deism was one of the ideas that sprawled out of the Protestant Revolution and was an offspring of Luthernanism. Basically the deists view god as a clockmaker, he created everything and then just sat back and let it run. I think a lot of people probably think this way.
Jul 28 2002 10:41PM
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Dirty
Posts: 679 - Karma: 12
i love jesus, he is my friend, god is soo wonderful, i pray and repent everyday so that i can one day go to the wonderful place called heaven.


Yeahhh, torture motherfucker what?
What? I'll fuckin
I'll fuckin tie you to a fuckin bedpost
with your ass cheeks spread out and shit, Right?
Put a hanger on a fuckin stove and let that shit sit there for like a half hour, Take it off and stick it in your ass slow like
Tssssssss
Jul 29 2002 12:22AM
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maxcox9
Posts: 254 - Karma: 10
to Prins. as for the guidelines. these guidelines may be good for some fucked up individual people, yes. but different religions also have different guidelines, and everey religion want to make every other religion to live by theirs and that creates a neverending war. and that is no guideline to live by


~~Ride hard, you can rest when you die.~~

I like the beat and the size does matter
I like the bass when it's big and phatter
I'm on the floor and there's nothing better
I like the beat and the size does matter

Jul 29 2002 6:55AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Also, look back on history, and look how people have convinced the masses to do completely terrible acts because it is 'what God wants!' All over the world people use religion and faith as a tool to get people to kill, maim, murder, rape,. and shit like that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 29 2002 10:41AM
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Prins
Posts: 1283 - Karma: 49
ya skierx has a point but I doubt that shit had anything to do with what God wanted. The guy in charge probably just found himself saying, This is for God, or whatever it was, as a way to get people involved. Like the crusades, that was bullshit and just a reason for them to take over countries from the middle east.
Jul 29 2002 11:24AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
I know thats not what a god would want, but people use 'god' as an excuse to do that shit and people listen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**
Jul 29 2002 12:28PM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
to say that christianity and other religons are the only sorce of morales is bullshit.
do you think that people living ever day (before the scriptures were written) fucked their neighbors wives and stole their fucking donkeys like (for lack of a better comparison) catholic priests are fucking little boys today?

what i'm saying is that people then still learned that when you touch a burning stick, it hurts. thus you don't do it again. you don't fuck you neighbor's wife or else your neighbor will cut out your tongue.

many morales are commen sence.
do unto others as they will do unto you? it is a golden rule because it makes sence. (unless you like sadist shit and like to be hurt, perhaps the golden rule should be 'do onto others as they would have you do unto them'...)

to say that from the day i was born, i have been influeced or guided by christianity makes me want to write a long rant about how i disagree.







In the garden shed, behind a cobweb curtain, Witch Baby was playing her drums.
It was the drumming of flashing dinosaur rock gods and goddesses who sweat starlight, the drumming of tall, muscly witch doctors who can make animals dance, wounds heal, rain fall and flowers open. But it began in Witch Baby's head and heart and came out through her small body and hands...
Jul 29 2002 5:52PM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
***SENSE!!!!***





In the garden shed, behind a cobweb curtain, Witch Baby was playing her drums.
It was the drumming of flashing dinosaur rock gods and goddesses who sweat starlight, the drumming of tall, muscly witch doctors who can make animals dance, wounds heal, rain fall and flowers open. But it began in Witch Baby's head and heart and came out through her small body and hands...
Jul 29 2002 5:53PM
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Spoon
Posts: 98 - Karma: 10
Ugh. Don't even get me started.Ah well, too late!

I am what you could call an arbitrar. I look at the facts. I acknowledge that there may very well be a 'God' if you will, but until I have sufficient proof, I remain neutral. Science is a proven law of facts. And so far it works.

A little blind faith can be a dangerous thing, because eventually you have the blind leading the blind.

But if it works for some people, good. Just don't go around blathering about it or attempting conversions or showing others their wrongful ways.
For all you know, there may not be a god/gods. In which case, that's alot of wated effort.

So continue living your life. I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually.
Jul 29 2002 7:07PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
To say that you haven't been influenced by christianity since you were born is pretty nearsighted. You've grown up and around people who are either christians or have been influenced by christianity more directly than yourself. The interaction with these people that you experience has help shaped your views on life, and aid in moral development. In addition to this, the laws that you live under which the government has set forth are derived from christian principles. People also shape their life in some matter or form to be obedient to the law, not because of a person being inherently passive; but because it keeps an orderly society.

When the influence of the law, which is inherently influenced by christianity, is absent, the consequences are ridiculous. Back in the early 90's, when a huge portion of new york experienced a black out, massive looting and vandalism took place because the law didn't have the resources to enforce itself.
Jul 29 2002 7:10PM
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Spoon
Posts: 98 - Karma: 10
Religion, and the state are two very different things now. Maybe in the beginning they were closely related, but now they are very far apart. Either one could live without the other.

Oh yes, and christianity isn't the only source of religion and God! That's all I've heard so far. What about the thousands of other gods and religions that existed, exist, and will exist?

You have to take into account all things before you say anything. There were gods of chaos which were worshipped. Wars and death sprung from it's beliefs. So do not tell me religion is a souce for order, or vice versa.
Jul 29 2002 7:16PM
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Prins
Posts: 1283 - Karma: 49
spoon and witch had good points but grave got what I was saying. You are always influenced by your suroundings. Church and State are two seperate things. When was the last time we had a non-catholic president? hmmmmm I'm pretty sure they have all been catholic (maybe not the most catholic but they all did go to catholic church). Congress and the House are also people with religious backgrounds. So while there is seperation there isn't. They are the ones passing the laws that we all must follow. That is just one example.

Also yes people do have a general sence of what is right and wrong. Always have and hope we always will. Don't feel like writing more now but ya thats it for now.
~paul
Jul 29 2002 9:10PM
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roswel
Posts: 427 - Karma: 11

you can not disprove the existence of god. it's not because he exists or not, it is simple math. you can't prove a negative.

to those who would put to rest the science arguement by saying 'you can't take the old testament literally' would be best to look into the past. only when modern science came about did peoples views change. it used to be FACT that genesis really happened, that we came from adam and eve. it only took about a 1000-1500 years to completely dismantle a major foundation of christianity, genesis. what's next?

it has been said that it is god who guided the hands of doctors and that he knows what is to come etc.... this by very nature contradicts what god has said to us. for him to have given us free will eliminates the possibility that he knows the future as it were. for if he did then our dicisions would be cast in stone and therefore we would have no true free will.

i would also agree with witchbaby that morals were around far before religion as we know it came about. some of our more important morals and attributes are human nature and others are as a result of our upbringing. this aspect, nature vs nurture could take up an entire different thread so i'll leave it at that.

gravteck...

you mentioned that we are influenced by christainity from birth and that our laws are based on christian morals. while in my case i can't deny that i have been influenced since birth there are others who can. it may surprise you to know that christianity is not the largest nor the oldest religion around. it is not unreasonable therefore to assume there are people who have never even heard of christianity.

secondly your comments on law and christianity are a fair bit off the mark. law has been an evolutionary process and only recently (500-600 years ago) has it been affected dramatically by christianity, and then only in most first world nations. Hamurrabi's code (1780 BCE), the first example of written law, predates moses and the ten commandments by almost 500 years, and predates modern christianity by almost 2000 years. the law reflects the people it represents and nothin else. if some of those people are christian it will be shown in the laws they pass. but the law is equally influenced by other religions and cultures especially in multicultural north america.

and to the person who said i was wrong about 'the universe and the church' and stuff....could you be more specific. it doesn't take to much effort to just say you're wrong, try to back it up.



- I ain't never been to Seasame Street, but i can flip a Big Bird....BACOOOOOOCK!!! -
Jul 29 2002 9:44PM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
i am quite enjoying this debate. however, gravteck, nowhere in my post did i say that i have never been influenced by the christian faith. my mother was brough up catholic until HER mother was rejected from the church for divorcing an abusive and absent husband.

I do not ignore the influence of the church in our society.

all i was saying was that there were morales BEFORE the church, and there will be morales long AFTER the church crumbles.






A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.
Jul 29 2002 9:49PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Ok I get what you meant now.
Prins: Actually I think our last catholic president was JFK, they've all been protestant I think.

Yea I know my history (4 on ap euro history test), I wasn't referring to everyone who has been born throughout time. I'm referring to people born in the us and canada, and these countries were founded by christians, and the mass majority of the religious population in these countries is christian affiliated. So I was talking basically about American and Canadian legislation.

The Church and State are separate. Now this may be true on paper but there still is a very tight connection. There is no direct subsidization to Church funds by the government but it'll be hard to find a congressman or successful politician without some sort of christian affiliation. People tend to elect representatives who share their moral beliefs, and moral beliefs and christian affiliation are interchangeable to these people. If you've followed current events, there was a move to expunge the 'one nation under god' phrase out of the pledge. In motion to basically say 'no way' most of the Senate participated in a special saying of the pledge. Legislation may be able to function separately under modern conditions, however in creating most laws until a little after the start of the 20th century. Politicans were fervent religious defenders. Have you guys ever heard of the Scopes trial. The prosecution Williams J. Bryant (man who was a congressman and ran for president 3 or 4 times), was prosecuting a school teacher who was teaching about evolution in science class. The teacher won though, and this began somewhat of a change, but the grounds legislation has been founded on until that point had been based strongly on christian morals.

Other relgions have certainly contributed to morals and behavior throughout time. Roman and Greek mythology functioned as a cornerstone for human worshippers. Worshippers would act in a favorable way to receive the benefit from whatever god they hoped to appease.
Jul 29 2002 10:41PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
And witchbaby you are correct about morals being able to be non-christian/religious. A lot of sects fail to garner respect for other sects, and so many peole affiliated with these sects have no respect for other people's religious views. I believe it's a great virtue and a moral to respect people's personal views on religions. This kind of unconditional respect and the attitude that 'I won't impede on your beliefs or hold them against you' is a great moral, and I attempt to have it. Understanding isn't really a christian moral.

I just thought we needed an example.
Jul 30 2002 12:45AM
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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
I pretty much agree with Roswel aye. You scientifically and mathematically cannot disprove the existance of God, you can't really prove it by the same means either. Maybe one day you will be able to but at the moment you can, it comes down to personal opinion and belief.

Just like you can't prove evolution coz there are too many gaps in it and not enough evidence, you can't really disprove it yet either, just a theory.

And as for what the last person said about morals and stuff. I know plenty of non-christian and non-religious people that have better morals and values than a lot of christian people too. It's all relative really.

Good debate too.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
'We are slaves to the labor of love that winter brings us every year.'
*I love Matty Enns*
Jul 30 2002 1:21AM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Actually evolution is semi-proven, and I think the evolution that most of us tend to think of evolution has been proven.

Well, it is important to distinguish between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Micro-evolution which involves biological variations within a natural species or biological kind (such as varieties of dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc.) is truly scientific, but macro-evolution which teaches that biological variations in nature can occur and did occur across natural species or biological kinds (especially from simpler species to more complex ones) is not proven or supported by science even though it is widely taught as scientific fact. Basically when we think of evolution we think of the ape into the man, the body slowly sophisticating. This has been proven, our evolution has been traced to some place in africa, and statistically the further away humans have gotten from this spot, the more successful they have become as a society. The problem with macro-evolution being proved is that, proof would rely on the total creation of new groups genes in the body, something like this would be evolution like dog->cat->bird.

But there are genes in the body that work as switches (where the head grows, blah blah blah), but some of these genes also prevent certain types of growth. In response to bodily demands these genes can stop preventing the growth or characteristic of whatever. So technically if we grew a third arm and the body had a gene which just simply prevented this, it would be consistent w/ micro evolution. (I'm not sure if there is a gene like that or anything).

So basically evolution exists as most of us think about it.
Jul 30 2002 1:35AM
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Dirty
Posts: 679 - Karma: 12
satan will soon rule the earth.


Yeahhh, torture motherfucker what?
What? I'll fuckin
I'll fuckin tie you to a fuckin bedpost
with your ass cheeks spread out and shit, Right?
Put a hanger on a fuckin stove and let that shit sit there for like a half hour, Take it off and stick it in your ass slow like
Tssssssss
Jul 30 2002 5:43AM
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witchbaby666
Posts: 642 - Karma: 10
isn't there still a missing link in the chain of evolution between apes and humans?





A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.
Jul 30 2002 3:18PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Actually i'm not sure about that, I think the research I was talking about referred to chromagnums, i haven't read about ape->humans in a while.
Jul 30 2002 4:17PM
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